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[YoshiMoromuo]

Im only upset because I am losing good pilots to this crap 

That's not good to hear, man...

[scagga]

Anything that harms the overall gameplay of building stuff directly harms my playstyle. I apologize for not having expressed that more clearly earlier.

Comrade, we have to be honest here.

Let's examine how the introduction of Aurum measurably affects 'building stuff', using the evidence that we have available.

1. Starting with products of T1/T2/T3 'building':

a) It is not evident that Aurum will be used to directly purchase such items from a store where they are 'created from thin air'. It is suggested that it will be possible to use Aurum to purchase such items that cannot currently be produced/obtained through this method.  It does not act as an ISK faucet because you are not creating ISK, you are only adding items of perceived value (expressed in ISK) that may lead to redistribution of existing ISK.

b)  It is conceivable that people may end up converting aurum into isk (e.g. reselling aurum-bought items), that they can then go on to spend on T1/T2/T3 items.  Doing this does not create or destroy isk, it simply redistributes it in an analogous way to the existing PLEX system.  The existing system allows any player to spend RL money to buy a PLEX and sell it for ISK, to purchase items without having to 'earn' the said ISK.  Ergo it can be compared to a player 'buying' ISK (again, without creating or destroying it).  Therefore I'm sure we can both see that the introduction of aurum would not introduce anything new in that respect.

c) So, if people want to use RL money to buy such items (T1/T2/T3), the legitimate ways of obtaining isk (aforementioned) will be used and they will buy them from the market.  This pays for the labour of the producers and other players who made that product available.  In fact, it may increase demand for their items as more players will be able to afford them.  Increased demand in the EvE economy cannot cause depreciation of value.  Because the system does not introduce isk in the system (it redistributes it, as explained), it cannot be linked to an idea that it would cause devaluation of the products.  It will increase profits for player producers of T1/T2/T3 items.


2. Faction items

It is suggested that it will be possible to buy faction standings.  I haven't seen evidence that one will be able to buy LP or faction items that can already be obtained ingame 'off the shelf' from a game-controlled Aurum-using store.  Therefore the effect of this is that there are fewer barriers to entry for running high-yield missions, which may lead to an increase in supply in the medium term, but one must also acknowledge that the work used to produce each item is the same (minus the startup work).  I think that is an acceptable sacrifice, though in the longer term it may have a measurable effect in reducing the cost of certain faction items (most likely ship hulls), if large numbers of people invest in buying standings and consistently produce faction items as products of their mission-running labour.  However one asks - if they couldn't buy the standings, would they have grinded them anyway if they wanted to produce faction items that badly?  An ancillary benefit may mean more targets in 0.0. space...

3. Miscellaneous items

- Special items that cannot be produced but only obtained through aurum can not impact the procedures involved in producing T1/T2/T3 items.

[Desiderya]

Understood, but if Hilmar says he will listen to what we do, not what we say, then I don't know what other way to make my voice heard.

True, in a way, but what will players do? Buy insanely overpriced vanity items. That would lead to the conclusion that we're going to see more of the same stuff, and not something completely different, like "real" items. And even if, I don't see why they won't keep it like the loyality stores. Take t1 variant, trade it against the pink version. There was talk about the scorpion and them not yet (!) being able to do the trade stuff with the NEX. Still, it has not gone to TQ, has it?

[Lyn Farel]

I can understand the anger people have over the possibility that someone could just buy their way into the game with RL money, but when you look at it, isn't that what we already have? Seriously. I could create an account today, buy a bunch of PLEX, convert them to ISK, and go-to. First I'd buy a set of hot implants, to maximize my stats, which would let me train into something like a Tengu relatively rapidly. Then I'd buy a hot shit Tengu (or Bhaalgorn, Avatar, Mach, whatever) with a full set of officer modules. Or I could use that ISK to buy into some business or other. How is that any better than giving someone the ability to do things like buy standings? Honestly? What do they get out of standings, other than the ability to use agents without having to go through the grind working up to L4/5 agents? Sure, having access to Angel Cartel agents allows you to do things like convert LP to Dramiels, but you still have to run the missions.

Everything in this game that actually makes a difference - combat skills, market knowhow, the ability to put together and maintain a powerful organization or soveregn space - take time to do. Buying skills, or standings, or ships, or anything like that can't make up for the fact that the people who actually are making a difference in the game are the people who are putting in the hours.

About time people start to understand that PLEX are... well yes, half damned, at least. I have been yelling against that almost since the beginning, and everybody thought I was a crazy retarded hard hat against poor people playing for free. I am no industrialist so I do not care if it does not change anything to the economy and the market (though it might still be debatable, rich people willing to spend infinte amounts of RL money into the game will maybe make the plex price go down, but in the same time it will favor inflation of market prices because of more demand to the producers, but maybe i am wrong). But I care when people can get advantages I can't get myself fairly on the same level. It is just insane.

This is why this shitstorm is the last straw for me. I am not rage quitting, I am just a disgusted, and even not sure yet to really quit until we see more clearly what will really happen.

[Jade Constantine]

All the issues with Incarna and vanity items, mails, ccp internal docs , communications etc etc. Fine. They made a mistake. Bad for business etc, we are all tired to know and dicuss about this. Now, ccp developed a game we all enjoy. More to the point, is this all ragequit, revolts, ill words, attacks directed at them really helpfull at the moment? I mean come on, they are a business like any other, companies make mistakes, they need to find a balance between profit and customer satisfaction.

Problem is that the CEO has said that ccp cares less about what players say and more about what they do. Doing involves action and human nature prefers action in the positive than the negative (ie protesting, posting, unsubbing is more attractive/satisfying than simply not buying NeX items while allowing the existence of the NeX shop / mandatory incarna without challenge). The issue here is that many do perceive the game they enjoy is now under significant threat by CCP itself. The ideas they are thinking about and planning (to a degree already) are gamechangers and will impact everyone. So time to protest this stuff is now - not in 6-12 months when its too late and anyone who feels the same as todays protesters have already quietly left.

Anyone of you here who owns or are responsible for this side of your company or your work knows how delicate this balance can be.
Zulu's blog suck. Heimar's mail suck. no doubt about that. But answering it with this pathetic forum rage, screaming, throwing rocks and lack of patience is only aggravating the situation.

I don't really buy that. Sometimes one must protest. Sometimes its neccessary to stand up and be counted and in those situations there will always be an authoritarian counter-argument that the "protesters are making it worse!" Sure some of the forum rage is pathetic - sure, some of it does go too far, yes I agree, some people are being too inflamatory and not helping the situation - BUT it is their right to protest what they perceive is a betrayal of their trust in the company and intended damage to the game they love. And for every stupid gif posted or "I H$TE CCP!" nonsense there is a well-worded thoughtful and heartfelt post from a long-term loyal player genuinely upset with the path taken by the company their subscriptions have supported and helped make a success.

End of the day to the average player Eve Online is a game they play - they can get passionate about it, scream and shout, protest and post shoot at statues, type out screeds of text but the worse thing that can happen is they get banned or the game dies - they move on.

CCP executive and employees have much more at stake should the situation prove untenable their income and professional reputation is at stake - its fairly clear which group should make the first moves in calming the situation and showing compromise and movement.

"OMG the players are revolting screw them we're doing MT anyway!" just isn't a creditable response from somebody employed to deliver computer games to a mass audience.

Perhaps its time for everyone to take a deep breath and allow ccp to breathe too out of the shitstorm. Let them rethink, see what went wrong and give them a chance to restore some sanity in the process.

Problem is you are seeing a community that is at the end of its patience for CCP's communication and development strategy. "18 months" has been and gone now people have "seen the future (and its rubbish)" There is a lot of outrage and lets face it - in the eve community we are talking about quite old gamers - 20s,30s,40s+ who on balance are literate, mature, eloquent and yet probably massively frustrated with aspects of their real lives right now - many do have financial problems, this year in europe and US it is like living through the end-times in part. People play this gameworld to escape from their issues in reality and relax in the science fiction universe where the global financial crisis can't touch them and increasing prices and cost of living can be forgotten for an hour or two while they drive their spaceships and plot the fall of galactic empires."

Now you have the spectre of rich showoffs in $1000 jeans chasing them into their escape hobby and ruining the market just as greedy money-grubbing bankers have ruined the economy in the real world.  Sure its a stretch but its not a massive one. CCP's "greed is good?" combined with reference to players as "golden-geece" to be milked and fleeced while rich idiots laud it over them with 3 months subscription-flaunting monocles is a lighted match to a pool of gasolene.

"Let them eat cake?"

It doesn't take much for human beings to begin a revolt when the conditions are right.

Or better yet: if you really want to make a point, just dont buy the stuff. No company will support something that isnt giving profit. that's the core of the message when Heilmar says " See what players are doing, not what they are saying "

Yes thats what Hillmar wants to happen. He would like to see people continue accepting of the NeX store and overlooking the impact the game-changer to magic-fairy production of these items with no involvement of the player base in their building. Sure. But if the people go back to their virtual homes and stop protesting and simply stop buying luxury goods "as a protest" what really changes? Nothing much.

Players in Eve have watched the Arab Spring on TV this year and have seen the dynamic of revolutions play out in Tunisia, Egypt, Syria, Libya and the rest. They've seen how occupying public places with protest and keeping up the tempo of resistence can lead to a popular outcome and frankly they now want to play at uprising in the Eve Online sandbox.

And to CCP's enduring and legendary credit with Eve Online.

This non-sharded singular sandbox universe is the only gaming environment on planet earth where people can play at rebellion and chase the dreams of popular revolution in this manner.

You have to hand it to the creators of Eve Online - they are managing to politicise the opt-out-sit-on-a-couch-and-take-it-gamer generation and teach them some valuable lessons in revolutionary motive.

Time to take a small step back and stop the witchhunt, isnt it? Give them some room to fix the PR mess they made with the gaming industry and us too. Damage is done , putting more fire into it wont help.

Ultimately love, its time for each of us to search our feelings and see what we each think about whats going on and if we want ... say our piece and make our contribution to the argument. I've said what I felt on Eve-Online already. I'm not quitting over this "yet" because I'm going to judge CCP on what they do - not what they say. If they step back from MT/NeX/Mandatory CQ then fine, that will be a great victory for people power and common sense. If on the other hand they do press forward with the worst ideas of the "Greed is Good?" document then by this time next year I don't know if there will be an Eve Online we can recognize from our last eight years involvement in the game. But I'm going to cross that bridge when I come to it.

But that doesn't mean I'm going to call anyone to stop their own protests and arguments and having their say. I want people to have their say and speak loudly and clearly so the powers that be will get the message.

Also... igs threads related to incarna issues? really...

*shrugs*

NeX is considered in-character by CCP.
Every capsule pilot in this game is now forced to decant into a scummy-looking Minmatar-themed dive room every time they dock.
Characters are sporting monocles that were not created by other characters at vast expense (the cost of dreadnaughts) with resources going to an Amarrian corporation.

These are IC issues too.

CCP decided NeX would be run by Amarrian aristocrats - its not unreasonable for any character opposed to Amarrian imperialism to consider things bought through this venue to be directly supporting the Amarrian Empire.
CCP decided that everyone would be forced to live in a Minmatar bedsit - its again not unreasonable to protest against this decision.

[Revan Neferis]

Ultimately love, its time for each of us to search our feelings and see what we each think about whats going on and if we want ... say our piece and make our contribution to the argument.

Obviously I don't agree with anything you say. You have this romantic notion of anarchist riots and revolutions being something special no matter what, and I'm a business woman love, I find the beauty on something organized and effective, not on this uncontrolled useless chaos.  I'm not impressed with the useless tantrum and the use of  ccp's internal communications and privacy in order to make our point. So obviously we will agree to disagree on the matter.
And that leads us to that sentence above which I quoted. I think there are ways and ways to contribute to the argument, I'm also doing that right now.

[Jade Constantine]

Obviously I don't agree with anything you say.

I knew you wouldn't. But it still needed to be said.

[Revan Neferis]

Obviously I don't agree with anything you say.

I knew you wouldn't. But it still needed to be said.

As if you would ever miss the opportunity...

And I'm sure that everyone sharing their opinions thinks their things needs to be said, wether this is true or not, we will never know.
But on topic, that's what a forum is for.

[Jade Constantine]

But on topic, that's what a forum is for.

Absolutely, on that we certainly can agree.

[Merdaneth]

It doesn't take much for human beings to begin a revolt when the conditions are right.

Players in Eve have watched the Arab Spring on TV this year and have seen the dynamic of revolutions play out in Tunisia, Egypt, Syria, Libya and the rest. They've seen how occupying public places with protest and keeping up the tempo of resistence can lead to a popular outcome and frankly they now want to play at uprising in the Eve Online sandbox.

A revolt (including this one) is never just about the spark that set it off. It more about the abudance of dry wood beneath, allowing the spark to catch fire and spread quickly. This dry wood is about lost hope.

Tunisia didn't revolt because one student immolated himself. Tunisia revolted because the student symbolized the growing abandonment of hope that it would get better. The growing loss of hope that their government was willing and able to make things better. The loss of hope that they could improve their situation.

CCP has suffered from a couple of years where they produced sub-standard gameplay. Largely unwanted and unused features (Spacebook) poor gameplay (PI), non-innovative and non-functional redesigns (sov mechanics) and lot and lots of promises that weren't kept (the promise to deliver or iterate on many features). CCP partially laid the blame of this on Incarna, because so many resources were needed for it that they had to compromise on other things, but Incarna would be so great that we would forgive them for it.

Now Incarna is here, and it is not wonderful. It holds the promise to be great, surely, but you need to have hope in CCP that they are going to do what they have promised. Instead there are some Incarna features that indicate that CCP does not want to go in the direction people had hoped for. Then suddenly information is leaked. Information that makes CCP seem uncaring about the wishes (and hopes) of the players. Many players have lost hope. They start to doubt that EVE would continue to improve much and in fact fear that their EVE would become worse in order to make CCP more money.

It is like the leaders of Tunisia suddenly come out and say that they were really out to enrich themselves and cared little what their people said. Even those leader understood saying such a thing would be PR-suicide. Even if you are just out to enrich yourself, you have to keep at least a passable illusion going.

I was in Syria last year. One of the most friendly and gentle peoples I have ever met. And they weren't poor or starving, most of them had enough to eat. They had however lost faith in their government. Many had no hopes of things changing for the better, of things improving enough for them to still see it. If these Syrian's still had food, a roof over their head, friends etc., aren't they blowing this out of proportions by the current revolution? And what about the silent Syrian majority? Only some 10% are actually revolting. Are the rest still happy with the status quo?

As I said before, I don't think Incarna is all that bad. I'm not to worried about the current incarnation of the NeX shop. I'm worried about a whole lot little things that combined have made me lose hope that CCP is willing or able to improve EVE Online in a way that I would want to live there. I am worried CCP is more concerned what they as 'government of EVE' want and not so much what I as 'citizen of EVE' want. The monocle is the spark that was needed. The spark to start a big enough fire for CCP to notice and really start worrying if their house will burn down.

If there ever is a time right to make CCP pay attention, have them wonder what their real prorities should be, it is now.

[Merahl]

I've been reserving my opinion on the situation, since I don't care to add to the piles of spam cluttering various forums.

Suffice it to say that I agree with Revan. The protests are counter productive and do nothing but create unnecessary work for people who are simply doing their jobs. Surely there are better, more rational and mature methods for stating our dissatisfaction.

[Kemekk]

I agree, Merahl. I don't think these "protests" (I mean the ones ingame) will actually solve anything. The loss of subs might, but not shooting at monuments.

[Revan Neferis]

I've been reserving my opinion on the situation, since I don't care to add to the piles of spam cluttering various forums.

Suffice it to say that I agree with Revan. The protests are counter productive and do nothing but create unnecessary work for people who are simply doing their jobs. Surely there are better, more rational and mature methods for stating our dissatisfaction.

I agree, Merahl. I don't think these "protests" (I mean the ones ingame) will actually solve anything. The loss of subs might, but not shooting at monuments.

Well put gentlemen, my thanks.

[IzzyChan]

Then why do people protest irl? Holding up a sign won't do anything, right?

[Merdaneth]

'
Suffice it to say that I agree with Revan. The protests are counter productive and do nothing but create unnecessary work for people who are simply doing their jobs. Surely there are better, more rational and mature methods for stating our dissatisfaction.

What do you think protest are intended to produce?

What do you think protest are producing now?

What method of stating your dissatisfaction would you use?