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Author Topic: Cartel Culture: Epic Brainstorming Session  (Read 21133 times)

Silver Night

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Re: Cartel Culture: Epic Brainstorming Session
« Reply #60 on: 27 Jul 2010, 17:29 »

Yeah.

Think it would need to be a loosely organized group, rather than an actual corporation. Sort of an issue when you look at someone's employment history and, for example, GHSC is on there.

Saede Riordan

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Re: Cartel Culture: Epic Brainstorming Session
« Reply #61 on: 05 Aug 2010, 07:51 »

I figure it might be a good idea to start thinking of little things that define cartel culture, and that make sense to exist the way they do, sort of an example of what happens when you morph and twist the existing cultures of the cluster.

That in mind, I thought of the Voluval. There are the three outcast marks for the matari, the Slaver fangs, the pale eye, and the broken shield.  Now what pool does the Cartel recruit heavily from? Outcasts.

So the outcast marks could be really fairly common within the cartel, but their meaning will have morphed, they become a symbol of the culture that abandoned them, as well as a sort of badge of honor within the cartel.

This is just one example to get the ball rolling, basically, the thought is thus, what sort of things would emerge out of the cartel? How would they twist and combine existing cultures to create a new one?
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Alexander Rykis

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Re: Cartel Culture: Epic Brainstorming Session
« Reply #62 on: 08 Aug 2010, 05:28 »

So, I've been doing a bit of reading and I agree that it seems to be quite hard to put your finger on it.


Now, I'm not one for a wall of thread, as I was a journalist and I was taught the 'most information / least number of words' style of writing.

Culture:
They probably don't have one. The culture as a whole seems to be a massive brunswick stew of the entire galaxy. They are so diverse and so large that the chances of anything more than some slang words or common food dishes aren't likely to take root and grow.

I've noticed nihilism popping up often in this discussion. I agree completely... but I think there's something nobody has really touched on, unless I missed it. Maybe my experience in the Marines is where I'm pulling this from but...

Wars are never fought by the sons of the rich. Armies don't pull from the wealthy, those are your doctors and lawyers... your educated members of society. Wars are fought by the poor, the underprivileged and the outcasts. I can tell you of few Marines, especially the infantry guys, who were educated or didn't come from a broken home or the shitty part of whatever shitty town they lived in. You don't join the military because it sounds awesome generally, you typically pick college first. Military ranks swell from those who don't have any options. I didn't have any options when I joined.

I think this is an important thing to consider when trying to put yourself in the mind of an Angel to decide what keeps him loyal and what keeps them moving along. They joined because of lack of options, because membership offers food, shelter, a sense of belonging finally and a sense of purpose. They are united in the fact that they all lived fucked up lives before they came to the Angels and it instills a certain sense of camaraderie in them. And once you eat, sleep, drink, shit, sweat and bleed with the same group of guys long enough, you see them to be more as family. However, on the same hand, the cutthroat ideal of self-preservation is still very much there.

So, in effect, what you end up having seems to be a bit of a contradiction of ideals when it's actually not. Their common background of shittiness, along with the natural instinct to survive at any cost is what keeps the constant in-fighting possible without threatening loyalties to the group as a whole.

Other than that, I'm with Aria and Ember as far as everything else goes... no need to re-hash it
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Boma Airaken

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Re: Cartel Culture: Epic Brainstorming Session
« Reply #63 on: 08 Aug 2010, 05:55 »

Sorry, but when I think of the Cartel, it is all I can do to get Badger from firefly out of my head.
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orange

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Re: Cartel Culture: Epic Brainstorming Session
« Reply #64 on: 08 Aug 2010, 08:17 »

Firefly was a short lived Old West in space with a ton of character and is really enjoyable to watch.

As for Badger as an example of the Cartel "agent", I am not sure.  He seems like someone who would deal with the larger Cartel, but is happy to be his local crime lord.
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BloodBird

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Re: Cartel Culture: Epic Brainstorming Session
« Reply #65 on: 08 Aug 2010, 16:41 »

Regarding the Angel Cartel, there are two things that I've long held in mind and wondered about. I'll elaborate on these, the why, and how it ties in with my character.

Firstly, Feythabolis. When first I saw this region, it was given a status as a quasi-Empire in it's own right; Ascenia, ASCN's 'nation'. No other alliance I've ever seen have ever been close to ruling their own Empire in this regard. Yet Ascenia was not empty of life; the Angel Cartel was all over it, the Frontier forces all over them in turn. For a while I wondered why this was so, after all all stations in Feythabolis was made by Frontier members, purely created by the capsuleers holding the space. So where did the Angels base out of?

Regional description:

Feythabolis
The human diaspora throughout the systems of New Eden was quite widespread prior to the collapse of the EVE Gate. In many areas, cultures cut off from other civilizations thrived in isolation. One of these regions was Feythabolis, a relatively small empire of progressive thinkers and egalitarian political philosophers. Unfortunately, this state lagged behind other empires significantly in technological advancement, having only recently started to colonize the local space just as the ruthless Angel Cartel was moving in to establish their control. Completely outclassed by the military forces of the Cartel, the fledgling empire was defeated with ease and its entire population bent to the will of the Angels.

So, given the above conversation about how the Cartel operate, what would happen to these people? I'd assume most would, in time, conform to the 'Angel way' – they would join the Cartel, helping to explain the Cartel's man-power supply, as they appear to have much, much more of it than the other 'criminal' elements in EVE. Add their extreme variety and the acceptance of all who manage to make it into the organization, and the acquisition of new recruits should not be too hard.

Many others, I'm assuming those who did not make the cut, or resist, or other undesirables, would likely be enslaved, sold to anyone who would buy them and/or use them for manual/dangerous labor.

How the Cartel went about acquire these worlds, what happened after and how life may be for the average dirt-side person out there now is something I've always wondered about, and it would be interesting if a chronicle or something was made to reflect on this and other 'lesser known' factions in EVE.

Secondly, the idea that the Cartel is a quasi-Empire in their own right; some might not like this idea, but they sure are powerful enough and diverse enough to be more than mere 'criminal thugs' in the longer run. The average grunt perhaps, but something tells me the truly successful Angels don't stroll around in your average 'space pirate' outfit; more like the garb fitting a king, living in his own castle. Until another, stronger, more sly King dethrones him, perhaps.

Building on this, if the Cartel wish to expand more and possibly manage to topple the Empires, their main opponents, and arguably considerably bigger dogs in the kennel, military might alone will not be sufficient. I imagine one method at least for one of the Empires: The Federation, and the Serpentis holds this method.

Through their deal with the Serpents, the Angels have secured a long-term ability to possibly win a war with the Federation; not a conflict merely of weapons, or ships or troops. A war of wills, the Federation's will to curtail and tone down one aspect of their own culture (ironic, is it not?) and the Angel's will to exploit that to maximum effect. Creating ever more imaginative and effective ways to smuggle their drugs into the Fed and creating more powerful and popular drugs for the easily impressed and free youth of the Fed (and other Empires) to become addicted to, they would seek to win a war of cultural subjugation; when enough of the Federation craves what they give, the Serpentis and their Angel allies/masters can set any term or price they desire. Reminds me of the greater goal of the Outcasts, from Freelancer.

As a Federal, Allisieer despised the Serpents with a horrible passion for the above reason and all the effects you can imagine the Serpents have on a society he holds dear. Eventually, all this muddles back to the Angels; they protect, aid, fund and I dear say guide the Serpentis. It is a bit sad, but it could be claimed that the Serpentis are the Angel's pets, though I've not seen it elaborated anywhere exactly how their relationship works, only that the two benefit from the alliance, and quite a lot at that. When the greater good is to be considered, for Allisieer the inhumane truth was/is that all Angels, Serpents and their collaborators and allies, family, friends, relatives etc. must all be shot. That is however a subject for another place and time.

In the end I'd say the Angel's are one of the more interesting pirate factions considering their methods, ways, and power. CONCORD has them pegged as the nr1 threat, for good reason too. What I wonder about however is, as I said, the above two things; thier relations with the Serpents and their actions in the various Empires, and the way thier... 'relationship' works in regards to their subjects in Feyth. Anyone have any ideas?
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Boma Airaken

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Re: Cartel Culture: Epic Brainstorming Session
« Reply #66 on: 08 Aug 2010, 22:53 »

Firefly was a short lived Old West in space with a ton of character and is really enjoyable to watch.

As for Badger as an example of the Cartel "agent", I am not sure.  He seems like someone who would deal with the larger Cartel, but is happy to be his local crime lord.

Sort of my point. Based on everything I have read of the cartel this is exactly what you would have. Absolutely zero top-down leadership or organization that is actually formal. More a "coalition" of territorial bosses working for each others common good and/or bad if it comes to it.

The Guristas and Serpentis absolutely reek of an organized crime model with a "godfather" and whatnot. The Angels seem more like a "you scratch my back i'll scratch yours" model.
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Saede Riordan

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Re: Cartel Culture: Epic Brainstorming Session
« Reply #67 on: 09 Aug 2010, 01:23 »

Firefly was a short lived Old West in space with a ton of character and is really enjoyable to watch.

As for Badger as an example of the Cartel "agent", I am not sure.  He seems like someone who would deal with the larger Cartel, but is happy to be his local crime lord.

Sort of my point. Based on everything I have read of the cartel this is exactly what you would have. Absolutely zero top-down leadership or organization that is actually formal. More a "coalition" of territorial bosses working for each others common good and/or bad if it comes to it.

The Guristas and Serpentis absolutely reek of an organized crime model with a "godfather" and whatnot. The Angels seem more like a "you scratch my back i'll scratch yours" model.

You see, I just did now get that feel from the Guristas, they always stuck me as having the loose organization. The Angels from what I've seen are incredibly organized, and have a lot of intricate plans that trace through their leadership.
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Boma Airaken

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Re: Cartel Culture: Epic Brainstorming Session
« Reply #68 on: 09 Aug 2010, 01:55 »

Firefly was a short lived Old West in space with a ton of character and is really enjoyable to watch.

As for Badger as an example of the Cartel "agent", I am not sure.  He seems like someone who would deal with the larger Cartel, but is happy to be his local crime lord.

Sort of my point. Based on everything I have read of the cartel this is exactly what you would have. Absolutely zero top-down leadership or organization that is actually formal. More a "coalition" of territorial bosses working for each others common good and/or bad if it comes to it.

The Guristas and Serpentis absolutely reek of an organized crime model with a "godfather" and whatnot. The Angels seem more like a "you scratch my back i'll scratch yours" model.

You see, I just did now get that feel from the Guristas, they always stuck me as having the loose organization. The Angels from what I've seen are incredibly organized, and have a lot of intricate plans that trace through their leadership.

At the same time though Niki, Angel society is much more tiered than the Guristas are. Much like most loosely knit crime syndicates. Guristas is very centralized whereas the Angels have what, 4 NPC corporations?

This would indicate a much more loose and liberal approach to their operations, especially considering that each of the Angel NPC corps does the same thing just on different levels (of trust perhaps?) than the Guristas, who basically have a yarr branch and a build shit for yarring branch.
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Boma Airaken

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Re: Cartel Culture: Epic Brainstorming Session
« Reply #69 on: 09 Aug 2010, 02:05 »

Archangels:

"The main arm of the Angel Cartel, the Archangels have no one center of operation, but can be seen roaming the space lanes most everywhere. They are equally adapt at piracy, scavenging and smuggling. "

I.E. random dudes doing random stuff. No organization.

Dominations:

"The Dominations is the command division of the Angel Cartel. The Dominations are quite elusive and seldom venture far from their bases in the Curse region. Little is known about the identities of the leaders of the Angel Cartel, though it is understood they come from all the races."

I.E. the backscratchers who loosely coordinate favors for each other based on timing and need, but go about their business independently when there is no need. Key word is "bases" rather than "base".

Guardian Angels:

"The Guardian Angels is a division of the Angel Cartel that are today exclusively occupied with guarding Serpentis space stations. The Serpentis Corporation pays the Angel Cartel handsomely for the protection, that is strong enough to keep even the DED at bay. "

Members of the cartel-as-a-whole who formed a fraternity to run a specified protection racket.

Salvation Angels:

"The Salvation Angels are the non-combat division of the Angel Cartel. The Salvation Angels are responsible for building and maintaining the Angels stations and space ships. For this, they frequently salvage what they need from the wrecks their fellow Angels have left behind."

Another random gaggle of cartel members who can't cut it in combat who formed a sub-cartel to fill a niche. Taking jobs that are worth it, and working others when the pay ain't so good.

Not really sure how much experience you have with organized crime, but the angels are the perfect example of opportunist individual type syndicates. There isn't one boss, there are many, and they are all competing against each other. Everyone from top to bottom comes and goes as they please.

This is why the Angels have their hands in so many pies. Nobody is telling any given angel to "do this or else".
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Alexander Rykis

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Re: Cartel Culture: Epic Brainstorming Session
« Reply #70 on: 09 Aug 2010, 02:44 »

Today, The Angel Cartel is the largest and best organized of the space-based criminal factions. The Angels are divided into several groups, each with a very special function. It is commanded by the Dominations  and in the century they've been lurking in deep space they have stolen, plundered or sabotaged countless number of ships and kidnapped, molested or murdered thousands of people. The Angels recruit members from all the races, and are thus not bound to any one zone of operation, which spans almost the entire known world. Many believe that the Angels got their power by uncovering Jovian technologies hidden in their ancient homes, now infested by the Angel Cartel.

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Angel_Cartel

Just because we don't have any info as to how they're organized, doesn't mean they aren't

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Boma Airaken

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Re: Cartel Culture: Epic Brainstorming Session
« Reply #71 on: 09 Aug 2010, 03:09 »

Today, The Angel Cartel is the largest and best organized of the space-based criminal factions. The Angels are divided into several groups, each with a very special function. It is commanded by the Dominations  and in the century they've been lurking in deep space they have stolen, plundered or sabotaged countless number of ships and kidnapped, molested or murdered thousands of people. The Angels recruit members from all the races, and are thus not bound to any one zone of operation, which spans almost the entire known world. Many believe that the Angels got their power by uncovering Jovian technologies hidden in their ancient homes, now infested by the Angel Cartel.

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Angel_Cartel

Just because we don't have any info as to how they're organized, doesn't mean they aren't



Thanks for proving my point. "Organized" when it comes to criminal organizations, is entirely different than any sort of corporate or military structure.

The Angel "on the ground", including the Archangels, is going to be free to pursue any activity entirely independent of any sort of command structure, and I am sure that would apply to capsuleer recruits as well. Why wouldn't it.

The Guristas are a paramilitary. The Serpentis are a drug cartel. The Angels are obviously a "get in where you fit in, just make sure you pay the local boss" organization.

Sure the fat cats have it all set up on top, but that is the extent of it in  my eyes. As long as they get a cut, they don't fuck care who is doing what.

[admin]Saying 'Thanks for proving my point' is not something that contributes to a useful discussion. Similarly, things that are 'obvious' often aren't. I'm leaving this because there was useful discussion based on the rest of it, but please keep the guidelines in mind in the future.[/admin]
« Last Edit: 12 Aug 2010, 13:48 by Silver Night »
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Aria Jenneth

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Re: Cartel Culture: Epic Brainstorming Session
« Reply #72 on: 09 Aug 2010, 13:06 »

Thanks for proving my point. "Organized" when it comes to criminal organizations, is entirely different than any sort of corporate or military structure.

... Except that, in what we see of them in the chronicles, etc., they appear to have a very military structure. See, e.g., "Tides of Change."

Quote
The Angel "on the ground", including the Archangels, is going to be free to pursue any activity entirely independent of any sort of command structure, and I am sure that would apply to capsuleer recruits as well. Why wouldn't it.

The Guristas are a paramilitary. The Serpentis are a drug cartel. The Angels are obviously a "get in where you fit in, just make sure you pay the local boss" organization.

I wouldn't say it's all that obvious, Boma.

Quote from: Black Mountain: A Man of Peace
"All right." Nale considered more questions, and could only come up with, "So what's Angel life like?"

"Disciplined."

Granted, Nale responds that he always thought that they were more like a family, but even if he is right that seems to suggest that they are more close-knit rather than less.

As an aside, I suggest checking out "Winter Came While You Were Away" and, especially, "Summer Breeze," to see how "drug cartel" -like the Serpentis are. All indications are that the Cartel is even more militarized. It built the Serpentis fleet.

Quote from: Boma Airaken
Sure the fat cats have it all set up on top, but that is the extent of it in  my eyes. As long as they get a cut, they don't fuck care who is doing what.

Once, I might possibly have agreed with you, but between the chronicles, PF (Dominations agents in Curse talk about fleet movements), and comments by authoritative sources ("The Angels are here, all marching in step," -CCP Abraxas, discussing The Burning Life), I couldn't disagree with you more.

What you describe would work reasonably if the Cartel were just a shadowy entity casting its corrupting tendrils through the empires. It is that, yes, but it's also so much more.

The Angel Cartel is CONCORD's number-one greatest threat. You don't get there by doing what you damn please.

Once, the Cartel was a gang. But between the deep secrets it has apparently uncovered and must protect, its multi-year war along its borders with Sansha's Nation, the massive numbers of planets and stations it controls (why would a military organization have only one base, incidentally?), and the militaristic structure the PF seems to give it, it seems plain:

At least in Curse, and at least in space, the Angel Cartel is far more than a mere criminal enterprise.
« Last Edit: 09 Aug 2010, 13:46 by Aria Jenneth »
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Boma Airaken

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Re: Cartel Culture: Epic Brainstorming Session
« Reply #73 on: 09 Aug 2010, 18:17 »

I completely agree with you Aria.....



.....as long as we are in Curse.

I was speaking to the cultural aspect of the Cartel as a whole everywhere, not just in sovereign space, or in a military environment. How many pieces of PF are out there describing your average Cartel gang?
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Silver Night

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Re: Cartel Culture: Epic Brainstorming Session
« Reply #74 on: 11 Aug 2010, 21:30 »

[admin]Topic locked until someone can look at cleaning it up. (As I participated earlier, I'm going to see if another mod can handle it.)[/admin]


[admin]Cleaned up. Please remember that if you think someone is being off-topic or otherwise violating the guidelines, you should use the report button rather than responding. Just because you don't see relevance in something doesn't mean that others might not. Similarly, just because you don't agree with someone doesn't mean their analogies or ideas should be dismissed out of hand. It is a better idea to worry about the integrity of your own ideas by way of counter-example. Unlocked.[/admin]
« Last Edit: 12 Aug 2010, 13:53 by Silver Night »
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