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[Kaito Haakkainen]

i heard there was a jovian notmoon in The Burning Life, but i haven't read it yet.

A what? I don't recall anything particularly Jovian in TBL at all.

No wonder the rock was so dense on the asteroid. It wasn't just rock.
He managed, 'The entire colony..' before his voice trailed off,
'Is more alive than you can imagine. It listens, remembers and contains. It gives life. It breathes, and it's exhalations are pure air.'
'How was this place made?'
She gave a very human shrug, 'Why made? Who said it wasn't grown?'

Hona herself, altered by the Book of Emptiness during the events of Blackmountain, resides on the colony. Her relationship with the Cartel is unclear. She "Seems to have withdrawn from Angel life of her own free will" and is "apparently seen as a wise woman".

[Casiella]

Ohhh yes, I remember now. Thank you for the reminder!

[Saede Riordan]

The majority of the Jovian population relocated in the Motherships. Those showing any sign of the Disease were left behind to die.

The key point of the first is the word 'all'. The key point in the second is that being 'left behind to die' does not actually mean that they did.

oh well....now that is clever...

[Bong-cha Jones]

This raises, in my mind, questions about the 'culture' of the Cartel itself. With the United States and Korea, you have two pre-existing cultures that run into each other. There is a new language, a new culture, a new society - and things that reinforce those: Schools, peers, general societal pressure to conform.

Even with all these things, you often find people self-segregating by ethnicity.

I sent Nikita an article about this sort of thing last night while the site was down:  http://www.miaminewtimes.com/content/printVersion/237654

Self-segregation is a pretty popular response to cultural pressures, but so is syncretism.  Afro-Carib religions are a fertile (and familiar) ground for this sort of process.  I would expect native Angels to have a gamut of beliefs, starting from relatively 'pure' beliefs from first-generation immigrants and then ranging out to things like 'Minmatar tattoos keep your soul in so that Ida-spirits can't rip them out and stick them in somebody else' and '<Gallentean moon goddess> lives on our moon, on the third tier of the production stack and is being hunted by Lokis'.

I think, given the wierd pidgins of folklore, traditional practices and half-explained religious beliefs, people raised in the environment would, at least some of the time, produce religious creoles.  And probably actual creoles from actual pidgins, too 

[Kaito Haakkainen]

Black Mountain states that there are a great mix of people on Angel Cartel stations. Given that the Cartel is also said to be tightly run and highly organized, with a multi-racial leadership, I imagine segregation is discouraged. The Angels welcome everyone regardless of history or race. They operate in more like a nation with an army than a just pirate group and they likely don't want ethnic groups forming within the ranks. Especially since the troubles regarding a large number of Minmatar finding racially based reasons to leave the organization.

Do your part. Trust the Cartel.

This sounds like the slogan of a group who are unified in an us and them that isn't about internal divisions by race. Of course that's not to say such groups don't exist and that there isn't some interesting RP to be had around the idea, but it is the kind of thing I imagine ranking Angel's, with their survivalist outlook, military organization, and varied origins would look down on.

The racial variety of the Angel Cartel is, after all, one of it's main strengths.

[Saede Riordan]

So we're left with look at what happens when you take all the existing cultures in eve, smash them together, and instill a survivalist attitude in them.

It probably wouldn't be quite as clear how they'd end up then one would think, remember what Simon said, look at the Afro-Caribbean groups, their culture is entirely unique, and while the roots can be seen, they've grown into something rather different then anything we've seen before.

And yes, Nihilism, and a defeatist attitude are probably fairly common within certain circles, I think there is another thing to take into account. Hope. The people that make up the Cartel have a home, they have people who see them as human beings, possibly for the first time in their lives. Life in the cartel is likely to be hard, and rough, a sort of frontier life. But that in mind, the people who live it still are very likely to love it, and find it rewarding. There would be this idea that, no one cares who I am, who I was, or what I've done. They've likely had just as many problems as me, and they accept me, no questions asked, and I accept them, no questions asked.

I've always sort of imagined it as an insult in the cartel to pry into someone's past, as its a violation of that unspoken trust that the entire cartel is built upon. The cartel doesn't see race, doesn't see past deeds, they see people.

That's a very, very powerful bonding agent, easily strong enough to overcome the bonds of the previous cultures of these people, and instill in them a disrespect for humanity outside the cartel to warrant the gleeful violations of human rights that cartel indulges in.

[Kaleigh Doyle]

When I read about the Angel Cartel, the word "organized crime" immediately springs to mind. It's an organization built on making a profit, and that's about as far as loyalty goes between members (see "The Sopranos").  The organization is tightly knit because everyone is motivated toward the same goal, making money, and you can be sure everyone's taking a cut, starting with the guy on the top and moving down. The guys who don't make money for the organization get to swim in vacuum, so one can be sure the guys at 'street' level are scouting for new potentials that may have already earned a reputation.

What I find interesting is they have their slimy fingers in everything and everywhere in all the empires, and probably make a majority of their money there. That means they probably have all castes of society in their pockets, working in their favor or 'looking the other way' when necessary.

I've always been a big fan of the Cartel (as Nakatre knows ♥), and I think the organized crime angle has tremendous potential for development and roleplay opportunity. Organized crime has always established itself from the 'riff raff' of street gangs and sociopaths by using the illusion of a 'code', or standards that they live by beyond simple violence.

[Aria Jenneth]

I've always been a big fan of the Cartel (as Nakatre knows ♥), and I think the organized crime angle has tremendous potential for development and roleplay opportunity.

I concur. Particularly in Empire, the Cartel seems to be very much an "organized crime" organization. The trick is getting that to work with the whole "interstellar demigod" thing.

Making it work is Nakatre's angle.

We've discussed that just a bit, here. I look forward to seeing what she, and Stillwater generally, manage to do with it.

Any further thoughts, yourself?

[Kaleigh Doyle]

Uh, well I think a 'neat' angle for a capsuleer organization would be similar to that of a mafia style outfit, where the boss expects his cut of the pie from his lieutenants (after a certain period, like a month), and they in turn oversee their 'people' at street level to make sure they are generating an income for them. It would start out as a gang though, and the individuals that set themselves apart as leaders and income makers would get bumped up as lieutenants. If they don't perform well, they might get pushed under someone else.

Extortion, ransom, drugs, smuggling, slaves, basically anything that can make 'em a profit would be commonplace. Newbies are brought in and shown the ropes, and while they might get some leeway at first there would definitely be expectation for success. It would ensure a tight-knit unit of killers that know their business, and I think new players would be intrigued enough to get into it.

Just my opinion though; if I had time (away from being sanshaz0rs) I'd be pursuing that.

[Seriphyn]

In terms of culture and that, the Angel Cartel, though it operates like an empire according to TBL, is still a pirate organization as others have said.

What I find damned attractive about it, is that I imagine Curse (planetwise) is a lawless region inhabited by people who are just barely trying to get by, but they are held together by the irongrip of the Cartel above them.

An impoverished society has little time to develop culture. Think of Terminus Systems from Mass Effect 2. That's what makes it so damned unique, and I love it. Trying to make it like one of the 4 empires removes all the flavour; it's designed to be completely different.

[Arnulf Ogunkoya]

Hmm. Criminal culture.

One of Aria's earlier posts in this thread reminded me slightly (in it's style) of a writer named Scott Lynch. He is currently writing a fantasy series called the Gentleman Bastard series. The first book is "The Lies of Locke Lamora." I can't recommend it too highly. Also the sequel "Red Seas Under Red Skies" has a lot of interesting idea about seaborne pirates.

However.

The lead character, Locke Lamora, is a priest of the Hidden Thirteenth. This is the thieves god of the setting and his credo is summed up in a pithy little saying.

Thieves Prosper. The Rich Remember.

Thieves prosper means a servant of the thirteenth should strive to ensure that the criminal community can go on and support it's members. Hopefully in lavish style.

The rich remember means that it is the place of followers of the thirteenth to ensure that those in power are regularly reminded that they are only mortal and entropy applies to them as well. A task that would be all too necessary in the EVE world of "Immortal demi-gods" and the like.

Likely no use at all in this discussion but you never know.

[Aria Jenneth]

The rich remember means that it is the place of followers of the thirteenth to ensure that those in power are regularly reminded that they are only mortal and entropy applies to them as well. A task that would be all too necessary in the EVE world of "Immortal demi-gods" and the like.

Likely no use at all in this discussion but you never know.

Well ...

On the one hand, the Angel Cartel hasn't been so good, canonically speaking, at reminding said quasi-immortal demigods of their mortality, etc. Its technological advantage kinda evaporates against capsuleers.

On the other hand, taking the eggers down a peg would make WONDERFUL motivation for a no-holds-barred, Cartel-oriented, full-service scamming, pirating, and infiltration society.

That would be tear-jerkingly beautiful, that would. If, that is, such a society could be properly established. If "pirates" are kind of a select group, then "able role-playing infiltrators and scammers" are close to non-existent.

Anyone feel like trying to recruit Istvaan Shogatsu?

(I kid. Mostly.)

[Saede Riordan]

Well Aria the thing is.....nah. Shouldn't spoil the surprise.

[Silver Night]

The rich remember means that it is the place of followers of the thirteenth to ensure that those in power are regularly reminded that they are only mortal and entropy applies to them as well. A task that would be all too necessary in the EVE world of "Immortal demi-gods" and the like.

Likely no use at all in this discussion but you never know.

Well ...

On the one hand, the Angel Cartel hasn't been so good, canonically speaking, at reminding said quasi-immortal demigods of their mortality, etc. Its technological advantage kinda evaporates against capsuleers.

On the other hand, taking the eggers down a peg would make WONDERFUL motivation for a no-holds-barred, Cartel-oriented, full-service scamming, pirating, and infiltration society.

That would be tear-jerkingly beautiful, that would. If, that is, such a society could be properly established. If "pirates" are kind of a select group, then "able role-playing infiltrators and scammers" are close to non-existent.

Anyone feel like trying to recruit Istvaan Shogatsu?

(I kid. Mostly.)

People do have strong feelings about how RPable that stuff is (covered largely in another thread.)

My personal feeling is that it is RPable, but you have to have the social engineering skills OOC for your character to have them IC. Just the way it is. There will also likely be an OOC component, cause that is the way most corps work, which isn't avoidable, and I think anyone going into it would be aware that it could result in OOC as well as IC hard feelings.

It would be awesome, though, as far as I'm concerned.

[Casiella]

If anyone's interested in that angle, feel free to PM me. You might have noticed via my blog that I'm looking at exploring that angle.