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EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => Player Driven Content => Topic started by: Saede Riordan on 16 Jun 2010, 17:47
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With the completion of the character arc, I've compiled a lot of data on the Angel Cartel, I needed to for the project, and to make people's roleplays more enriching in the future, I've decided to come out with all the stuff I made up for the Angels. Its kinda poorly organized, but I've been sitting at a computer all day.
No one has ever really looked at the internal politics and culture of the Cartel proper, so I really had no baseline to go from. I had a lot of ideas, from Stillwater, and Ghost Festival, and a tiny bit from fragments of PF, but for the most part I was on my own. And so, I sort of made it up as I went.
The Cartel has a culture distinct from anywhere else in the cluster, they must, for a group where things like paranoia, mistrust, and callousness are positive character traits. They are very leery of outsiders, and go to extreme measures to stop people from learning too much. They conduct mindwipes in much the same way the Caldari conduct interrogations, with only minor changes to the tech in fact. And they love their mindwipes.
Because of this, its very hard to get inside the cartel, but if you do, you are a member for life. Its not that they stop you from leaving, but they make you not want to. The cartel compares itself to a family, and in fact, calls themselves the family internally, and they stick up for each other fiercely. They honestly love each, at least as much as other criminals can. If you are in the cartel, you're family, and they will do their best to take care of you. If an Angel considers someone family, then, because the cartel considers the Angel family, that person is seen as family as well. This normally only occurs in romantic relations, since the bonds of the 'Angel Family' are often much more significant then the hereditary family.
The cartel is multicultural, it contains people from all regions, cultures, and walks of life. Because of that, they have no real religion and their morals are fast and loose. If they have an opportunity to get the better of you, they will, happily.
While they have no real religion, they do have a loose, on the fly belief system of sorts. They believe that everyone is born with a guiding star, and you can follow it, or ignore it. Your star can be bright and easy to follow, or dim and hard to see by. They also have a rough belief in an afterlife, in the form of the Sunless Country, the undiscovered country from whence borne no traveler returns. They believe that the Sunless Country is not bad, or good, it merely is the next phase of existence, something that is not the be feared. To enter the sunless country, you need to give a a pair of coins to the Ferryman, to carry you across the border between life and death, without which, you will wander the world sleeplessly. No one knows exactly where this legend came from, but its thought to be older then stars.
Each Cartel member carries two coins, real ones, printed by the Angels themselves, to provide money for the ferryman. When an Angel dies, the coins are put over their eyes for the Ferryman to find. Angels that serve on ships sometimes have their coins sewn into their clothes or imbedded in their skin even to keep them from getting separated from the Angel during a near death event. When two Angels are in love, they often exchange coins as a sign of their faith and commitment to each other, a commitment that transcends life and death.
The Angels speak with a lot of slang, and picked up an entire language from the nations conquered in Feythabolis, the language is known as Teanga, it is spoken almost universally within the Cartel, and unknown most other places, making it very useful when trying to be discrete.
The language I've been using ingame as this is Irish Gaelic since it sounds really frakking cool, and I'm learning it in real life.
Anyway, braindump finished. I hope people find this useful.
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I'm going to actually request this topic get moved up one forum, as now that I think about it, I feel like that's where it really ought to go.
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[mod]Thread moved from EVE Fiction/Fiction Discussion to Player Driven Content forum by author's request.[/mod]
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so...no comments on this?
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I would just say this doesn't really match my personal view of the Cartel. I don't think they have that sort of love for other organization members -- they're generally portrayed as fearsome and ruthless, even to each other. For reference, see some of their officer descriptions as well as The Burning Life.
But I certainly could have missed some things. :) What inspired that part of your view? And from where did you derive the Ferryman belief??
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Im somewhat inclined to agree with Casi on this one. Some of the stuff I can see as being viable. Like being somewhat leery of outsiders, at least initially, and a sort of slang or coded language would be beneficial to any group that wishes to talk openly or leave messages in public with no one konwing what they are really talking about. Not sure what the spoken version would be like, but I can imagine a sort of symbol code for safe houses or hot spots and the like. Religiously Ive always viewed them as having followers across the spectrum from Sani Sabik to athiesm and everything in between. I dont see having a internal belief system like you mentioned as being widespread throughout the whole Cartel, but that doesnt mean a few people wouldnt follow something like that or similar.
I could have missed some things too, and really aside from PF everything else is open to interpretation so its all possible I suppose.
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I would just say this doesn't really match my personal view of the Cartel. I don't think they have that sort of love for other organization members -- they're generally portrayed as fearsome and ruthless, even to each other. For reference, see some of their officer descriptions as well as The Burning Life.
But I certainly could have missed some things. :) What inspired that part of your view? And from where did you derive the Ferryman belief??
Its not super true to fiction, but I haven't read the novels, and frankly, I wanted to make a group that wasn't just a criminal group. Right now the only characterization anyone has for the cartel is that they are ruthless criminals, but what criminal isn't ruthless? their so boring, so stereotypical, so basic. They are basically the xeroxed mail order crime syndicate, they have no flavor, no culture, their bland, boring.
I wanted them to have a real personality, a real culture. I wanted to make them relatable, and unique. So I did, in a sort of superstitious mafia, scientist sort of way.
Originally, they were going to be the Saturday morning villains, but as I wrote the arc, and moved things forward, that became more and more impossible, and this is what came out of it. I just couldn't do anything with them as the standard Hollywood movie villains they are in game, so I stretched outside of the very very small half formed box the PF had quasi wrote for them, its not too different then what people have done with the Caldari already.
But I am interested in seeing where this goes.
And Casi, the myth of the ferryman is old, like pre-Christianity old. The ferryman was a greek immortal named Charon, he ferried the souls of the dead across the river Styx, the tradition of burying the dead with coins covering their eyes originated from that, the coins were to pay the ferryman the required fee, for passage into the underworld.
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Its not super true to fiction, but I haven't read the novels, and frankly, I wanted to make a group that wasn't just a criminal group. Right now the only characterization anyone has for the cartel is that they are ruthless criminals, but what criminal isn't ruthless? their so boring, so stereotypical, so basic. They are basically the xeroxed mail order crime syndicate, they have no flavor, no culture, their bland, boring.
I wanted them to have a real personality, a real culture. I wanted to make them relatable, and unique. So I did, in a sort of superstitious mafia, scientist sort of way.
Originally, they were going to be the Saturday morning villains, but as I wrote the arc, and moved things forward, that became more and more impossible, and this is what came out of it. I just couldn't do anything with them as the standard Hollywood movie villains they are in game, so I stretched outside of the very very small half formed box the PF had quasi wrote for them, its not too different then what people have done with the Caldari already.
Hm.
The way I tend to interpret the Angel Cartel is as, functionally, a civilization that hasn't managed to put too many generations between itself and its origin as a pirate gang.
As I understand it, Curse spent some time not so long ago as a truly chaotic region, where rival pirate gangs (in spaceships, necessarily, so maybe a bit like Germany's raubritter, "robber knights"-- bandits with serious resources) warred over territory and resources. Imagine a highly-tribalized space, something like rural Yemen. Then imagine it completely unburdened by such niceties as tradition or shared identity. The only ones you can trust are your own (which includes, incidentally, those you have made your own). Alliances are transitory, victory fleeting-- unless you happen to be the last snake in the barrel, the one that's eaten all the others. In the end, the only means to achieve security is through merciless strength.
That's Curse, as of some unspecified number of years back. The Angel Cartel is the last snake in the barrel.
Now, that doesn't deny the possibility for some shared culture, but what we know of the Cartel is:
1. It's organized. Exceedingly. This has been hammered hard in the PF, and it makes abundant sense. In order to survive the crucible of Curse, it pretty well would have had to be.
2. It's got a technological "edge." From somewhere. The Cartel crushed its rivals at least partially through superior technology, apparently applied mostly to maneuverability and signature issues, and the origins of that tech remain a mystery. Those who spread rumors of Jovian tech left over from an earlier, greater Jovian empire have a way of disappearing. Again, this speaks to tight, efficient, ruthless organization.
3. It's widespread. The Cartel built the Serpentis fleet, provides security services to same, and still finds time to get itself involved with criminal activities cluster-wide. Incidentally, while the Serpentis seem to be the cluster's premier vice lords, Angel Cartel-associated products turn up routinely in association with booster production all over New Eden.
4. It's diversified. The various branches each have their own specialization; the ones we've really seen, however, are only the spacebourne ones. The purpose of at least one other, the Dark Angels, seems pretty obvious. Are there more? Hard to say. What is clear is that the Cartel believes in the right tool for the right job-- and in developing the right tools on a structural level.
5. It's multiracial and multicultural beyond any other faction in Eve, but has a lot of Minmatar, if only because the Republic is a major Angel stomping ground and the legitimate Matari economy isn't all that (large, easy recruiting pool).
6. It's at least somewhat unstable. The Seven's an Angel offshoot. And an entire Angel fleet split off when it tried (and failed) to rejoin the Republic for the sake of fighting the Amarr. You get this sort of instability when the governing power doesn't have a whole pack of legitimacy aside from the carrot it offers and stick it threatens with.
7. It looks on human rights abuses as, frankly, profitable. The Dominations sell slaves, and the Seven learned their brothel-running habits somewhere. If others ban a practice, that just makes it more profitable to carry out.
8. It's freaking scary. CONCORD is terrified of these people, ranking the Cartel as the #1 threat in New Eden.
9. It's suffered badly from capsuleer activity. The Chronicle, "The Winds of Change" is a pretty icky rat's-eye view of a patrol in Curse.
To me, this looks like an institution that's about three parts militarized gang, two parts business, and one part proto-civilization, and whose top priority in all things is in acquiring and maintaining advantage: power as a means to greater power, greater power as a means to survival and dominance.
I don't think the Angels worship power, since they seem too practical for that, but everything we know about them just screams "survive and thrive" as a central unifying priority. The Caldari were born in a world that was passively trying to kill them, with storms and bitter winters. The Angels were born in a world that was actively trying to kill them, with autocannons and blasters.
I don't think they've left it, yet. They're still a vicious gang at heart, with most of what that implies, but one in the pangs of slow transformation into a civilization: still driven primarily to seek the power to survive, but perhaps gradually reaching the point where they are starting to see options aside from "conquer or be conquered."
But in order to seize such opportunities, they need still more advantage....
Family? I think that was more a Ghost Festival thing (and it worked fine for PRETA), but less a trait of the Cartel as a whole.
Villains? Well, yes, to most of New Eden. But then, this is basically a proto-civilization crafted out of a bunch of militarized misfits-- the disenchanted or exiled of every empire.
Traditions/beliefs? I imagine the vast majority of Angels bring their own with them from wherever they originated. However, I seem to recall that it's canon that the Cartel has conquered at least a couple less-advanced civilizations. Some traditions from those cultures might well survive within the Cartel, such as the "guiding star." Neat idea, that.
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Ahh, I hadn't really gotten that out of the Angel backstory, they way I'd seen it when Curse was opened, it was desolate and empty for a while, and the Angels, then at the time a lesser group in, probably, the hotzone between the Empire and the Republic, needed a place to run to after the wars, and the Empires started actually, ya know, caring about pirates.
They found curse and bunkered in, grabbing up everything they could get their hands on, so when the empires and other pirate factions turned their attentions toward Curse finally, the Angels gave them the finger and stonewalled their attempts to do anything with the region.
But honestly I like your way better, it leads to a more interesting dichotomy, and one that I sort of hinted at in my character arc but one that never really played a factor. It seems to me, that if you're the baddest kids on the block, and you've killed off all your enemies and neighbors, then within your ranks you have three major points contact between various subgroups of the Angels. These would be, fear, respect, and camaraderie.
Fear is the most obvious, there would be rampant, rampant fear among the groups in the Cartel. Fear the group above you would crush you from above. Fear the groups under you would usurp your power, fear that your neighbors would stab you in the back.
Respect, is less obvious, but still there. Respect for those around you for not being killed off, and holding onto what they have despite things.
And Camaraderie, because while all these groups are trying to crush you from all sides, if you make friends, you keep them close, and you treat them well, its sort of at this level I think you'd actually fairly likely see something similar to the Family thing I had, maybe not in quite so organized away, but you'd do everything, everything you could to keep your friends close.
As for the sort of mythos, I liked the idea of the angels having a loose belief system shared by all angels regardless of faith, creed, or background, and the idea of the ferryman is actually something that I've done research on in our world, and it seemed like a good fit, since it seemed to transcend faith, and I have personally had relatives buried with coins on their eyes, despite the fact that they were born again Christians, so its something that could realistically be included in basically all tenants for all faiths regardless.
Also, I'd want to look at what third, or fourth generation Angels were like as people, where they have been raised into this world from birth, which, in theory, is what my character is. I have a feeling that as newer generations are raised into this world of violence and betrayal. Superstitions, strange beliefs, and a definitely distinct culture. As the fledging nation stabilizes, fear turns into paranoia, respect turns into idolization , camraderie turns into the idea of family, or maybe tribes.
That's just my rough take on things. This is actually a really fun discussion and I hope we get something good out of it.
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The way I tend to interpret the Angel Cartel is as, functionally, a civilization that hasn't managed to put too many generations between itself and its origin as a pirate gang.
This. Back during the era of old Aurora events at the dawn of time, there was a lot of action around the Angels. The thing that separates them from being just common criminals is their desire to be a sort of an "imperial" power. Just look at their very potent alliances with the Serpentis (and the Thukkers). They wanted to establish relations with the local capsuleer alliances back then, essentially figuring out who's with them and who's not, arraying them against the Sansha's who certainly vie with them over dominion. There was a war brewing back then and the Angels wanted proof that the capsuleers were worthwhile to have around.
As a flavor piece, I wouldn't ignore the fact that they have potential access to high-tech Jovian goods still lying in Curse, so in addition to Machariels who knows what they have found? That and the fact that they seem to have a master plan far more extensive than their usually simplistic criminal rivals.. (I guess they are similar to Sansha in that, actually).
Here's (http://www.eve-chatsubo.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=96213#p96213) an earlier post where I go into my reading of the various pirate groups, including the Cartel.
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The way I tend to interpret the Angel Cartel is as, functionally, a civilization that hasn't managed to put too many generations between itself and its origin as a pirate gang.
This.
Yeah pretty much. Everything Aria said and a few things I mentioned from the OP and my own head in my earlier post is pretty much how I view the Angel Cartel. The ruthlessness and general badassery is part of the reason why I like them so much.
One more thing. Dark Angels? Havnet heard of that or maybe I just missed it. Care to explain please? :D
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It's listed as one of the organizations comprising the Cartel in the Heaven chronicle (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Heaven_(Chronicle)) but I've never found any additional PF on them.
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Cool thanks Casi. :D
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The way I tend to interpret the Angel Cartel is as, functionally, a civilization that hasn't managed to put too many generations between itself and its origin as a pirate gang.
This.
Yeah pretty much.
But we shouldn't stop there when describing them, that's really not enough information to make them interesting to roleplay, not the way the Sansha's, the Bloods, or the Guristas are. So lets go outside of the box presented by the pure fiction and look at them socially, politically, economically, culturally. What does an Angel do for fun? What songs do they sing? What curses do they mutter? what hatreds do they hold? What defines them? What are their taboos? What are their virtues? What is their political power structure like? How does their economy function? what are they like as a culture? As an entity?
These are the questions that I'm attempting to answer. I mean, ask a Gallente roleplayer any of those questions and they can go on and on about them, we have ream upon ream of fiction and documentation, made up, and real, on the four nations, we a decent amount on Sansha's Nation, some on the Blood Raiders, some on the Guristas, a bit on the Serpentis, but what do we have on the Angels? What defines them?
That's something that we as players are going to need to decide.
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My Angel character (Hilion Narath) has a religion based around 'The Void' (who's female) as the primary 'diety'.
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The way I tend to interpret the Angel Cartel is as, functionally, a civilization that hasn't managed to put too many generations between itself and its origin as a pirate gang.
This.
Yeah pretty much.
But we shouldn't stop there when describing them, that's really not enough information to make them interesting to roleplay, not the way the Sansha's, the Bloods, or the Guristas are. So lets go outside of the box presented by the pure fiction and look at them socially, politically, economically, culturally. What does an Angel do for fun? What songs do they sing? What curses do they mutter? what hatreds do they hold? What defines them? What are their taboos? What are their virtues? What is their political power structure like? How does their economy function? what are they like as a culture? As an entity?
These are the questions that I'm attempting to answer. I mean, ask a Gallente roleplayer any of those questions and they can go on and on about them, we have ream upon ream of fiction and documentation, made up, and real, on the four nations, we a decent amount on Sansha's Nation, some on the Blood Raiders, some on the Guristas, a bit on the Serpentis, but what do we have on the Angels? What defines them?
That's something that we as players are going to need to decide.
It's about what we ever got for the Achura. So, hey, let's give it a whirl!
Alright. So, it strikes me that one of the most important traits of the Cartel is negative: in addition to what we have above, we also know that they are NOT.
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The Angels are not the Caldari.
If the Angels were a single, cohesive people struggling for thousands of years against the elements, they might have come out something like the ethnic Caldari-- very community-oriented, strong sense of honor. They're not; not only are they too diverse in origin for the insular Caldari approach to life, they also developed in a setting where treachery, collective or individual, is regularly rewarded, not punished. If you push your brother out into a storm, you lose your brother and usually gain nothing. If you push your brother out in front of a firing squad, you are apt to derive some concrete benefits.
The Angels have been more in the latter situation than the former, and will have learned this lesson. Organization demands duty. But honor? Ha!
The Angels are not the Gallente.
Individual empowerment (chaos)! Democracy (indecisiveness)! Human rights (lol)!
"Strike out for yourself, and only yourself, and you're just easy prey. Democracy just makes people decisive when they should be thinking carefully and indecisive when they should be acting. And the only 'rights' you have are the ones you can enforce."
This is how the Angel would seemingly tend to see it. "Anything else is just apt to get you shot."
The Angels are not the Amarr.
"God, if any such horrific bastard exists, is the one who made the rules of this world-- the ones the namby-pamby Federals just don't get, the ones the Caldari keep expecting to be all polite, the ones the Amarr think the world needs saving from. But there is no saving this world, and the only 'kingdom' you can ever build here is your own. So-- how're you going to do it?"
The Angels are not the Minmatar.
"Blood? What's that supposed to mean, exactly? Now, listen, mate, see this fucking tattoo on my arm? SEE IT? Yeah-- nice one, isn't it? Yeah, I got lucky. My cousin? He wasn't so damn lucky. I mean, look, I grew up with the guy; he was worth twice what I was, what I'm ever going to be, and when the elders got a good look at what he had on his arm? Pff-- exiled, just like that.
"That's what blood gets you: superstition, old bonds, some crazy mission to go save some poor religion-addled bastards you've never met in your life-- a million other things that have not a single thing to do with you and your life."
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The Angels are, of course, also "not" the Guristas, Serpentis, Sanshas, Blooders, EoM, Rogue Drones, etc., but a little less distinction might be necessary there.
So-- due to their recruitment base, the Angels' attitudes would be predominantly those of Empire outcasts, such as those noted above, but there also needs to be some unifying theme, some central pattern. The Angels are too strong, too unified in purpose, to be just a group of misfits.
So, what is left when you've thrown God, honor, the dignity of the individual, and the traditions of the ancestors all to the wind, along with conventional morality, but managed to hang on to duty, discipline, and, most of all, power as a means to an end? What do you get when you've thrown every external, philosophical source for a moral compass out the window?
Folks, there's a word for this, and the word is, "nihilists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihilism)."
So-- what sort of culture does this create?
Superficial similarities to the Caldari State probably abound, at least in public life. The Cartel is very militaristic, with a lot of ranks, uniforms, "all marching in step," as I think CCP Abraxas put it. The core difference is that, in the Cartel's ideal, all things, all things, are means to greater ends, the ultimate "greater end" being the power to survive essentially anything. Family ties-- both your own and others'-- are to be exploited. So are friendships, faith, and so on. Ergo, if you can disobey orders in a way that actually, truly outweighs all the negative consequences (including the dangerous example being set), this is behavior to be rewarded.
"But isn't that kinda what the Blood Raiders are about?" I hear you ask.
Well, sorta, but not really. The Sani Sabik seem to be about power for power's sake-- they essentially worship it. Whether it's CCP Abraxas' "blood god" or Kai Zion's quiet, personal (as in, one person) cult of self-improvement, the Sani see power of one sort or another as a thing to be desired for its own sake. These guys are following Friedrich Nietzsche's approach, life as the "will to power."
The Angels are more practical: power is ever and always a means to an end. Exactly which end is likely to vary, Angel by Angel, but if there's one thing the Angels are good at as a group, it's using their power to shore up and maintain their own position.
Now-- an important couple of notes.
1) Nihilism is a hell of a difficult principle (lack of principle?) on which to build a stable, lasting civilization. Good freaking luck. A governing power that cannot gain long-term legitimacy (which seems to boil down to moral weight, at least in the eyes of the citizens) will not be able to govern for long, and nihilism allows little basis for doing so. Consequently, while it seems near-certain that the Angel leadership (possibly most of the Dominations) actually approaches things in this manner philosophically, it is entirely probable that they don't encourage underlings to see things this way with too much zeal and that they make some use of "soft power" to build loyalty, preferring a secure a position as protectors to an insecure position as targets. This likely even functions outside of the Cartel: at the time of the Sharkon incident, most of the citizens of that system preferred the security offered by the Angels to that offered by the Republic military.
2) The Angels are, by the terms of New Eden, an almost ridiculously diverse lot, and there's relatively little sign that the Angels do anything to stifle it aside from imposing order and discipline-- and aside from the sort of pervasive cynicism you'd inevitably encounter from a whole faction of outcasts. Ergo, you can probably find communities within the Cartel with virtually any belief set or cultural background you care to name.
Not sure how much that helps, but I'm too tired to write further. Others are welcome to continue, or I can keep going when I get the chance.
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1) Nihilism is a hell of a difficult principle (lack of principle?) on which to build a stable, lasting civilization. Good freaking luck. A governing power that cannot gain long-term legitimacy (which seems to boil down to moral weight, at least in the eyes of the citizens) will not be able to govern for long, and nihilism allows little basis for doing so. Consequently, while it seems near-certain that the Angel leadership (possibly most of the Dominations) actually approaches things in this manner philosophically, it is entirely probable that they don't encourage underlings to see things this way with too much zeal and that they make some use of "soft power" to build loyalty, preferring a secure a position as protectors to an insecure position as targets. This likely even functions outside of the Cartel: at the time of the Sharkon incident, most of the citizens of that system preferred the security offered by the Angels to that offered by the Republic military.
While Nihilism would be a definite principle among the higher ups, I think existentialism, and cynicism are more likely within the main body of the population, sort of "I make my own way, I make my own worth" sort of thing. Similar to the state where your worth is determined by what you do, but even more so, where it doesn't just determine your worth to others, it determines how you see yourself. This combined with the cynicism leads to a group that is really, really, aggressive with their goals. No one better get in their way.
2) The Angels are, by the terms of New Eden, an almost ridiculously diverse lot, and there's relatively little sign that the Angels do anything to stifle it aside from imposing order and discipline-- and aside from the sort of pervasive cynicism you'd inevitably encounter from a whole faction of outcasts. Ergo, you can probably find communities within the Cartel with virtually any belief set or cultural background you care to name.
Not sure how much that helps, but I'm too tired to write further. Others are welcome to continue, or I can keep going when I get the chance.
I sort of see the Angel cartel stations as a cross between a public bazaar, a tent city, a military base, and an industrial park. a massive crush of unwanted peoples from all corners of the cluster, just a really diverse climate where anything can happen, almost a world unto itself. And yes, you'd find almost every sort of belief, moral code, and person, from all the corners of the cluster, all the outcasts, all the unwanteds.
I do again really like the idea of the Cartel having its own language, and a belief system shared by the third and fourth generation angels, not sure what form it would take, but almost something that encourages the cynical, ruthless behavior among their members, stuff that makes it permissible. The language, which I've called Teanga, just seems like a good idea to have on their part, and if enough people speak it, it will proliferate quickly, since learning one shared language would be much cheaper then buying an expensive translator, and leads to a less secure information exchange.
and yeah, this really helps, and I'd love to hear more from you when you get a chance Aria.
also, listen to song, watch video. When I think of angels, that's what I think:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylslcF-fUeE&feature=related
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Thinking about this a little further, it occurs to me that people who don't adhere to any particular "greater" philosophy often don't talk about it very much, even if they think about it.
The Cartel seems to be necessarily morally nihilistic. This is sort of necessary to the work (the classic alternative is "objectification of the other," allowing all sorts of nastiness to be inflicted on outsiders, but the Cartel is full of people from every possible empire, so that may be more difficult for them than most). For the rest?
Hm. I'll have to think about this a bit further.
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The Cartel seems to be necessarily morally nihilistic. This is sort of necessary to the work (the classic alternative is "objectification of the other," allowing all sorts of nastiness to be inflicted on outsiders, but the Cartel is full of people from every possible empire, so that may be more difficult for them than most). For the rest?
Hm. I'll have to think about this a bit further.
That is actually a really good point. So the question becomes, how do you dehumanize people, when everyone around you, is from one of those walks of life, how do you separate yourself from them?
I think part of it can be explained away fairly easily, the people of the cartel are the outcasts and their offspring, the unloved, the unwanted. They likely hold little to know love for the rest of their former culture, who many of them probably see as having abandoned them. I know when I made Illuria, a first generation Angel, I made her have a deep seated resentment of the State for kicking her out and branding her as dishonorable for being a lesbian. Would that be enough to do horrible things to people from the state that she's never met?
Well, not on its own, but it definitely contributes.
But there needs to be some other factor. What that other factor is, I'm not sure, I'll have to think on it further.
This give you any new insights Aria?
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I think part of it can be explained away fairly easily, the people of the cartel are the outcasts and their offspring, the unloved, the unwanted.
Hm. Excellent point. If you think about it, it's not difficult for the disenfranchised of any given civilization to lose their ties of loyalty to their parent society. Sometimes they seem to hold that they are the "real" patriots of whatever nation (at its most pronounced, this turns into a French Revolution situation, with much lopping of heads). At other times, they basically say to hell with the whole thing and find an alternative "society" to belong to.
That, itself, could very well describe the Cartel's core to perfection.
The Cartel was, at its origins, a gang. Gangs don't develop through shared ideology or philosophy. They form and grow by providing a sense of "belonging" and identity to those who are otherwise without it-- an identity with concrete advantages, since a gang offers protection.
It's not about greed so much as status-- protection, identity, respect, and the power to protect what you have. It's "being someone."
It probably gets more Machiavellian as you go higher up the power chain, mind you, but as a warlord it would be precisely this kind of legitimacy that you might want in order to establish the sort of nation that survives the death of its first king.
It's also the kind of (relatively primitive) "nation" that establishes the emotive bonds of community most closely, professing no particular regard for humanity as a whole and treating those outside of it as entirely and intensely "other"-- enemies, or prey.
It's not so much "nationalism" as we usually think of it, if only because that normally carries ethnic overtones. It's more like what you'd get if every gang in the entire United States were united under one leader, declared Detroit their headquarters (with enough firepower to pose a credible threat to US armed forces), and proceeded to start happily spreading their tendrils through the rest of the country (and world) through ever-more-sophisticated forms of underground control.
It's less "organized crime" than a shadow-nation, one that exists openly and above-ground as the reigning power of Curse, but which simultaneously maintains the loyalty of large segments of population in many other nations, and particularly the Minmatar Republic.
It doesn't require a single unifying cause: its existence as a true alternative to the other imperial powers, one vastly more attuned to the needs and desires of the empire underclasses, is itself its unifying cause. To its leaders, it is, no doubt, a tool of power and control-- conquest, even. To its members, especially among the empire refugee camps and slums, it represents an alternative to being knocked down, stepped over, and disregarded, day in, day out.
Thoughts?
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I think part of it can be explained away fairly easily, the people of the cartel are the outcasts and their offspring, the unloved, the unwanted.
Hm. Excellent point. If you think about it, it's not difficult for the disenfranchised of any given civilization to lose their ties of loyalty to their parent society. Sometimes they seem to hold that they are the "real" patriots of whatever nation (at its most pronounced, this turns into a French Revolution situation, with much lopping of heads). At other times, they basically say to hell with the whole thing and find an alternative "society" to belong to.
That, itself, could very well describe the Cartel's core to perfection.
The Cartel was, at its origins, a gang. Gangs don't develop through shared ideology or philosophy. They form and grow by providing a sense of "belonging" and identity to those who are otherwise without it-- an identity with concrete advantages, since a gang offers protection.
It's not about greed so much as status-- protection, identity, respect, and the power to protect what you have. It's "being someone."
That makes sense, so the reason people join the cartel, the thing that defines the cartel at its core, isn't for any other reason other then that it makes you somebody. I doesn't pull them out of the underworld of their parent civilization, but it definitely establishes that there is a better alternative.
So honestly, the reason to maintain loyalty to the angels, the reason to maintain some level of trust in them, is that without them, you are utterly on your own. Just one more piece of trash chewed up and spit out by the machine of culture. So the thing that being an angel gives, that defines it almost, is a sort of newfound, yet cynical sense of belonging. The angels are you friends, the angels are your allies, the angels like you. They took you in when no one else would. That would definitely, definitely instill a strong sense of loyalty.
It's also the kind of (relatively primitive) "nation" that establishes the emotive bonds of community most closely, professing no particular regard for humanity as a whole and treating those outside of it as entirely and intensely "other"-- enemies, or prey.
Well yeah, definitely. The people the Cartel recruits are likely the very bottom of the social ladder, the people that absolutely everyone above them steps on. So if you find people that support you, people that take you in, and give you an identity, you'll jump through flaming hoops to please them. Combine this with the fact that they were stepped on by everyone above them on the social ladder, and have probably been in that situation for more then one generation, they would hate the rest of humanity. The rest of humanity chewed them up, spit them out, and left them to die. They'd have no qualms about returning the favor.
It's not so much "nationalism" as we usually think of it, if only because that normally carries ethnic overtones. It's more like what you'd get if every gang in the entire United States were united under one leader, declared Detroit their headquarters (with enough firepower to pose a credible threat to US armed forces), and proceeded to start happily spreading their tendrils through the rest of the country (and world) through ever-more-sophisticated forms of underground control.
It's less "organized crime" than a shadow-nation, one that exists openly and above-ground as the reigning power of Curse, but which simultaneously maintains the loyalty of large segments of population in many other nations, and particularly the Minmatar Republic.
It doesn't require a single unifying cause: its existence as a true alternative to the other imperial powers, one vastly more attuned to the needs and desires of the empire underclasses, is itself its unifying cause. To its leaders, it is, no doubt, a tool of power and control-- conquest, even. To its members, especially among the empire refugee camps and slums, it represents an alternative to being knocked down, stepped over, and disregarded, day in, day out.
Thoughts?
Shadow Nation is indeed a very good way to describe it. When you think about it, its not that different then the way most insurgency groups recruit. They go to the disenfranchised, marginalized, and illegitimized. The people taught by everyone around them that they are nothing, that they are the scum of the earth. Even if the insurgency in the end makes everything worse, its not something the members care about. They are just happy with a place to belong, happy with people who don't see them as garbage, and they'll do whatever those people want to stop from being seen as garbage by them too.
Its interesting to think about, its a society built on the distilled hatred of all other societies. I have to wonder, what would happen to such a society over the next century or two. What will they evolve into? What will they become?
What about after just a generation or two?
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Dear god.
And I obviously need to visit this forum more often, stuff gets posted too fast.
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Nakatre:
Was that a criticism? If so, of which part, exactly? The conversation's shifted directions a couple times.
In any event, if you've got ideas to present either supported by or inferred from canon, please do join in!
Nikita:
Shadow Nation is indeed a very good way to describe it. When you think about it, its not that different then the way most insurgency groups recruit. They go to the disenfranchised, marginalized, and illegitimized. The people taught by everyone around them that they are nothing, that they are the scum of the earth.
Or, alternatively, those who stand to lose everything. See, e.g., the Iraqi Sunnis: a privileged minority on resource-poor land that finds its political control slipping through its fingers. Compare to a Caldari mid-level corporate manager who's gotten over his head in gambling debts and stands to lose everything his family owns.
And then someone offers to just make all the trouble go away....
Another method of recruitment-- and a way to get hooks into other entities (one of the "ever more sophisticated" methods of expanding control).
I think Nakatre's been working this "classic mobster" angle a bit more, but really it's just an extension and expansion of the basic "gang" model. The two are far from incompatible.
One question, of course, is whether you ever allow a "business partner," someone brought in late and with original loyalties to another group/society, to gain any very strong influence in the organization. I'm thinking not; the risk of your average Caldari manager, for instance, suffering a fit of conscience and turning a bunch of your people (and themselves) in to corporate security forces is too damned high.
Higher-ups should really have undivided loyalties.
Even if the insurgency in the end makes everything worse, its not something the members care about. They are just happy with a place to belong, happy with people who don't see them as garbage, and they'll do whatever those people want to stop from being seen as garbage by them too.
Also, they get the pleasure of watching the "elites" of society on bended knee before its "dregs." That's gotta be pleasant if the dominant society's been treating you like dirt all your life.
Its interesting to think about, its a society built on the distilled hatred of all other societies. I have to wonder, what would happen to such a society over the next century or two. What will they evolve into? What will they become?
What about after just a generation or two?
Hm. "Hatred" might be putting it too strongly. "Scorn," "disdain," "contempt"-- that might come closer.
The real trick with such a society is keeping it together and stable. With a shortage of higher principles, it's subject to all sorts of political games, and any situation where a unit of soldiers is more loyal to their commander than to Curse is potential trouble.
In Empire space, I imagine the Angels would get better over time at being quieter. A lot of local gangs probably serve under their own names as proxies for the Cartel. Proxies of proxies, even. That, again, I recall is Nakatre's angle (and she's welcome to fill in any blanks I'm missing), the "quiet influence" side of things.
Would that be what the Dark Angels do? My instincts tell me that they're more about the espionage, internal security, and general secret police-ness than putting the "cartel" in "The Angel Cartel," but there's no other particular group that this seems to fit. It would be very weird to have the exact same people doing both the interstellar espionage and the planetside drug dealing and influence peddling. The Salvation Angels, maybe?
... that could work. Or just another group, as yet unnamed.
On their own turf, or in space, however, the Cartel is open and direct. Archangels ain't all that subtle, just deft, and that's where the Cartel faction ships come into play.
Anyhow. What I'm getting at, culturally, is that the Cartel of Curse and the Cartel of the street are probably two different creatures. The Cartel of the street would have to be a relatively quiet periphery, a source of profits and recruits but one where Cartel insignias disappear into gang signs and serial numbers. One does not ease the rolling up of a group of conspirators by making them easy to spot. In other words, you'd need core precepts: loyalty, obedience, care (don't betray us, do what you're told, don't fuck up). You probably wouldn't need much more, and that's probably about as far as Cartel culture "marches in step" in the Empires. The Empires have the power, so the Angels lie low.
In Curse (or other Angel-controlled space), the pattern is reversed, less "gangland" and more "military dictatorship." The two major groups there are the (large) elite, the Angels, and the underclass, their victims. The Angels are slavers; this is a known fact. How many slaves are sold as opposed to being kept around for this or that reason isn't entirely clear, but it's likely quite a few.
There's probably some way to end up not being a slave anymore; the most obvious (and likely) would just be being freed by whoever owned you. Given the Angels' martial bent, I might add an equivalent of being "knighted for bravery." In any case, it's entirely likely that a fair few modern-day Angels are descended from slave stock. If there are any lingering Angel-specific languages or traditions, this is probably where they came from.
I actually kinda doubt very many of those born in Curse get deeply involved in Cartel doings in the Empires, unless it's as part of a fleet action. The differences in mannerism, accent, and custom would be too easy to detect, so I'd guess that most planetside Empire stuff is handled by "local" Angels. The Dark Angels might well be an exception: espionage games tend to demand (at least in places) some serious, confirmed loyalty.
Specifics? We'd have to make those up as we go along.
One important note on slavery: the idea that it's a bad thing is kind of new. As far as I'm aware, in ancient Rome the "rightness" of it wasn't even in question, and the Romans didn't use the later European excuse, "But it's for their own good!" that we hear from the Amarr.
Slaves were spoils of war, among other endeavors-- luckless souls, but rightful property, simple as that. You can own a couch, a horse, a man. Narry a difference (just the man produces better poetry). Why bother to rationalize?
That, I imagine, is the Angel approach to the issue.
Mind you, I suspect that little cultural nicety is much stronger in Curse than it is in, say, the Republic. But it's still gotta be hugely satisfying to snap an explosive collar around the neck of the guy who beat you bloody for trying to steal from his shop last year.
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On Language:
I always felt like the Cartel probably didn't have it's own language, but that there were very likely one or more patois or pidgin type languages. Probably a whole mess of them. I would tend to think that some specific phrases or slang terms might creep into most Cartel members' normal usage too.
On Organization:
I wonder if rather than military dictatorship, warlords might not be closer to the 'middle level' structure of the Cartel. I would think that at the top, there is probably a lot of vicious, likely often bloody political maneuvering, but I'm not sure to what degree the Dominations would feel the need to show a united front to the rest of the organization outside that.
In the lower echelons, I do really like the idea that the Cartel works through proxies and associates at the ground level. I think, though, that given how widely the Cartel recruits, they probably could find people to stick in place pretty much anywhere in the cluster without being recognized. Even more-so in the very busy places where they might want a more direct presence - trade hubs and the like.
I mean, it is a vast organization that recruits all over the cluster for roles directly with the Cartel. Locals are probably fine when you want to shift risk for selling drugs or running illegal gambling or whatever, but it is likely to be situational. Big cluster, etc. There are places where you would want your own people, and there would also likely be Cartel people eager to try and run things themselves to prove themselves, and get their starts up the ladder.
On Beliefs:
I touched on the made up religion I came up with earlier, but I suspect that religiously the Cartel has a wild spectrum of stuff going on. It's a big organization, people from all over, basically the points from earlier.
As far as philosophy, a couple of thoughts:
As far as morals etc: I think it depends on who you are talking about. The person born in Curse, for whom there was never anything wrong with any of what they do? The person recruited or captured when they were still a teenager or younger, whose ideas were still in the midst of being formed, and there easily molded to the Cartel's culture? Or the person who is an adult, probably already with some degree of power, who decided to join or work with the cartel, and whose framework for right and wrong might have fit the Cartel's all along, and now they have happily found eachother?
Of course, all of those are subject to a 'to one degree or another'. People can have doubts, or conversely, take it too far. Backstabbing of a kind might be rewarded, but I think even for the Cartel there might be (various) culturally acceptable ways of doing it.
In fact, I think for the Cartel, there might be a sort of enforced 'cult of loyalty', like you see in a lot of organized crime now and in the recent past. Not like they are so virtuous that they wouldn't think about betrayal, ofc. But for instance if you are going to throw your superior to CONCORD in order to advance, you best make sure noone finds out you're a rat. If you have someone killed, make sure that you have a good pretext, or that it can't be traced. That kind of thing.
Retribution wouldn't be so much about outrage, or based in love for the injured party, but it would be based around the fact you were incompetent enough to get caught, not to mention the threat you pose if you are known to use those tactics.
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Was that a criticism?
No, not at all. It was my surprised reaction at how large and long the posts are :P I agree with pretty much everything you have said, and you even know what I'm doing! I'd love to join in but some people are just better at discussions and I'm not one of them :) I prefer to linger under the surface now and then and get my point across through other means.
Though I'm glad to see that what I stand for hasn't gone unnoticed. The difference between Angels in Empire and Angels in Curse is quite large and shouldn't be overlooked, so I'm glad you pointed that out.
Carry on <.< *gives waffles*
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http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Roleplay
Let CCP Play the NPCs - CCP and CCP alone have control of the NPC organizations. You are So-and-so, Important Poobah of the Ministry of War? No, you aren't. CCP could come out with a new piece of PF at any time that completely contradicts you. You can always claim to be anything, either from insanity, trickery or pretence, but always know that it's not true.
It seems there has been some misunderstanding regarding this particular thing.
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Don't think so, really, Nakatre.
How bad is it, actually, to claim to have the backing of the Dominations for an undertaking (attacking Sansha's Nation) that they would most likely give at least the "Sure, knock yourselves out," level of blessing to?
Sure, it's a little much, and probably a bad habit to get into, but relatively safe ground: the Cartel and Nation are at war, so claiming approval of an operation to hurt the Nation seems pretty minimally presumptuous. Sort of like saying, "The Pope has declared himself in favor of Catholicism."
As for "Angel Representative Illuria Malprosit," the way I read it is that she's the Angel representative to Risen Angels-- a liaison officer, if I've got my terminology straight. That's nothing very grandiose.
In any case, thank you for your earlier good wishes, and I'm exceedingly pleased you feel I've done your perspective justice. I'll have to deal with Silver's post a bit later on....
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All right. I've got a few minutes before bed.
On Language:
I always felt like the Cartel probably didn't have it's own language, but that there were very likely one or more patois or pidgin type languages. Probably a whole mess of them. I would tend to think that some specific phrases or slang terms might creep into most Cartel members' normal usage too.
Entirely possible. Then again, the Cartel is an interstellar quasi-civilization spanning a good many systems. I agree with your analysis overall, but there's always the possibility of surviving islands of old culture that haven't been quashed-- and with some old languages surviving with them.
On Organization:
I wonder if rather than military dictatorship, warlords might not be closer to the 'middle level' structure of the Cartel. I would think that at the top, there is probably a lot of vicious, likely often bloody political maneuvering, but I'm not sure to what degree the Dominations would feel the need to show a united front to the rest of the organization outside that.
This one, I'd have to differ with: without a strong central leadership, the Cartel would be even more apt to fracture than it already is. You wouldn't have "The Cartel," but a lot of little warring cartels-- the last snake in the barrel birthing, or even just collapsing into, a writhing pile of baby snakes.
In the lower echelons, I do really like the idea that the Cartel works through proxies and associates at the ground level. I think, though, that given how widely the Cartel recruits, they probably could find people to stick in place pretty much anywhere in the cluster without being recognized. Even more-so in the very busy places where they might want a more direct presence - trade hubs and the like.
I was thinking mostly of the risks inherent in putting a Curse native into someplace like the Empire, or, worse, the State (but also, to a lesser degree, the more "open" empires). Without some pretty extensive training, you'd run the risk of inadvertently reenacting that scene from Star Trek IV where Chekhov is asking "where the nuclear wessels are kept."
Using empire natives as lower-level agents would probably be the simplest, easiest course, even if you end up shuffling them from one empire to another: at worst, a Caldari expatriate in Matari space looks like a Caldari, not an Angel.
I mean, it is a vast organization that recruits all over the cluster for roles directly with the Cartel. Locals are probably fine when you want to shift risk for selling drugs or running illegal gambling or whatever, but it is likely to be situational. Big cluster, etc. There are places where you would want your own people, and there would also likely be Cartel people eager to try and run things themselves to prove themselves, and get their starts up the ladder.
Well, naturally. I suspect the ones eager to prove themselves get shuffled towards the Archangels or low-level administrative work, though; when it comes to espionage or drug shipment, over-eager hot shots would be a bad element to add to the mix.
On Beliefs:
I touched on the made up religion I came up with earlier, but I suspect that religiously the Cartel has a wild spectrum of stuff going on. It's a big organization, people from all over, basically the points from earlier.
*nodnod*
As far as philosophy, a couple of thoughts:
As far as morals etc: I think it depends on who you are talking about. The person born in Curse, for whom there was never anything wrong with any of what they do? The person recruited or captured when they were still a teenager or younger, whose ideas were still in the midst of being formed, and there easily molded to the Cartel's culture? Or the person who is an adult, probably already with some degree of power, who decided to join or work with the cartel, and whose framework for right and wrong might have fit the Cartel's all along, and now they have happily found eachother?
Well, naturally. If everybody's the same to begin with, what's the point of enforcing tight discipline?
Of course, all of those are subject to a 'to one degree or another'. People can have doubts, or conversely, take it too far. Backstabbing of a kind might be rewarded, but I think even for the Cartel there might be (various) culturally acceptable ways of doing it.
My guess would be that there are two. Either:
1. Don't get caught
or
2. Pull it off in such a spectacular manner that you instantly establish your credentials as a brilliant, ruthless son of a bitch who can walk into the harsh light of scrutiny and likely discipline with a wicked grin.
The first is less demanding. The latter is a quick way to either leap up the ladder or face merciless retribution, depending on your performance.
In fact, I think for the Cartel, there might be a sort of enforced 'cult of loyalty', like you see in a lot of organized crime now and in the recent past. Not like they are so virtuous that they wouldn't think about betrayal, ofc. But for instance if you are going to throw your superior to CONCORD in order to advance, you best make sure noone finds out you're a rat. If you have someone killed, make sure that you have a good pretext, or that it can't be traced. That kind of thing.
Retribution wouldn't be so much about outrage, or based in love for the injured party, but it would be based around the fact you were incompetent enough to get caught, not to mention the threat you pose if you are known to use those tactics.
I'd agree-- that's sort of what I was getting at with my "basic precepts you teach to any street punk you want to use."
One thing, though: retribution for a breach of a loyalty cult is absolutely about outrage, at least in the lower echelons. If you broke faith, if you ratted on your friends, you broke the rules, you broke your word, you broke trust. You did all of that in a context where trust in one's compatriots is about the only thing that allows such criminals to work together, thus rendering you not only utterly unreliable but also a treacherous snake.
The bullet you'd get in your head (possibly after several long, unpleasant hours) would be both a practical and a moral judgment.
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As for "Angel Representative Illuria Malprosit," the way I read it is that she's the Angel representative to Risen Angels-- a liaison officer, if I've got my terminology straight. That's nothing very grandiose
You can spin it any way you want but I know what it says, Aria. I didn't have any problems with her RP whatsoever, except for those lines in her IGS post that I personally, as long-time RP'er, think is pretty darn wrong. I'm actually quite disappointed to see you're trying to defend the fact that it's perfectly fine for her to claim whatever she wants.
The Angel Cartel community is incredibly small, and I've been a part of it for a very, very long time. I take whatever is being slinged towards it, very serious. To have someone suddenly walk up towards that community and go "Hey, here are my ideas, and I think they're awesome" without ANY regard for other people's visions or even RP etiquette, is quite frankly annoying me.
But you know what, I've been talking with Nikita. Apparently you're now the Oracle when it comes to Angel Cartel RP. While I already agreed that you have said some very true things, I cannot fathom the fact you're actually trying to defend the wrong ideas instead of pointing them out. Sure, prime fiction is scarce and left open to imagination. You and I both know however that NPC's should be NPC's and that it is, and always has been, impossible to claim as a capsuleer pilot to have special connections to them.
In any case, this is the last you'll see of me in this thread. I'm gonna ask Mizuro Cybon if she wants to go on a date with me.
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Nakatre, the quote was:
If you have forces already present in the area and you would like to liaison with us, or the Angels in general, contact myself, or Angel Representative, Illuria Malprosit.
This may be taken to indicate that Illuria Malprosit is some sort of spokesperson for "the Angels in general," but the statement is not without ambiguity. Considering Illuria's subsequent RP, I'm pretty sure I'm correct about the intended meaning.
Make of this what you like. Your approach to play is not my business.
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FWIW, I interpreted that statement as Naka did. "If you want to liaison (sic) with... the Angels in general," then work through me.
Perhaps it's just a case of unfortunate wording. I haven't had IC interaction to know. But it does sound unfortunate.
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All right. I've got a few minutes before bed.
On Language:
I always felt like the Cartel probably didn't have it's own language, but that there were very likely one or more patois or pidgin type languages. Probably a whole mess of them. I would tend to think that some specific phrases or slang terms might creep into most Cartel members' normal usage too.
Entirely possible. Then again, the Cartel is an interstellar quasi-civilization spanning a good many systems. I agree with your analysis overall, but there's always the possibility of surviving islands of old culture that haven't been quashed-- and with some old languages surviving with them.
Oh, certainly. I would also extend what I said and say that in some number of years or decades, a very common mixed language might emerge that might be called the Cartel's own.
On Organization:
I wonder if rather than military dictatorship, warlords might not be closer to the 'middle level' structure of the Cartel. I would think that at the top, there is probably a lot of vicious, likely often bloody political maneuvering, but I'm not sure to what degree the Dominations would feel the need to show a united front to the rest of the organization outside that.
This one, I'd have to differ with: without a strong central leadership, the Cartel would be even more apt to fracture than it already is. You wouldn't have "The Cartel," but a lot of little warring cartels-- the last snake in the barrel birthing, or even just collapsing into, a writhing pile of baby snakes.
I think there is likely a strong central leadership, though I think there is probably internal stuff which probably does run bloody sometimes. They would just be careful to show a united front to everyone else.
I think that more than a central leadership - although that is an important component - external pressure keeps the Cartel together. They are as large as they can be, so that CONCORD, or Sansha, or The Republic, or... don't destroy them. Fracturing would make the survivors easy pickings.
An analogue might be Mexican drug cartels. They are as large as they are not only because some few individuals made them that way, but because smaller groups have been destroyed or absorbed. They fight among themselves and against the national government. That external pressure - along with their central authorities - keeps them together and defines their limits.
There is a fairly clear chain of command, but that isn't the same as tight organization. Having a hierarchy isn't the same as having a plan.
In the lower echelons, I do really like the idea that the Cartel works through proxies and associates at the ground level. I think, though, that given how widely the Cartel recruits, they probably could find people to stick in place pretty much anywhere in the cluster without being recognized. Even more-so in the very busy places where they might want a more direct presence - trade hubs and the like.
I was thinking mostly of the risks inherent in putting a Curse native into someplace like the Empire, or, worse, the State (but also, to a lesser degree, the more "open" empires). Without some pretty extensive training, you'd run the risk of inadvertently reenacting that scene from Star Trek IV where Chekhov is asking "where the nuclear wessels are kept."
Using empire natives as lower-level agents would probably be the simplest, easiest course, even if you end up shuffling them from one empire to another: at worst, a Caldari expatriate in Matari space looks like a Caldari, not an Angel.
How many in the Cartel are natives to Curse to such a degree that they couldn't blend in other places, and how many are recruited from the Empires?
I never saw the Angels as a cartel run by people native to Curse. I always saw them as an organization that had drawn it's people at pretty much every level from far and wide.
True, it's old enough that there might have been a few generations born in Curse now, but is there a special accent? Some other defining feature that separates them enough that they would stand out so blatantly?
There well might be for some, but my suspicion would be that there are enough people in the organization - even 2nd, 3rd generation, that could pass in the Empires that it might not be much of a problem for the Cartel as a whole.
I mean, it is a vast organization that recruits all over the cluster for roles directly with the Cartel. Locals are probably fine when you want to shift risk for selling drugs or running illegal gambling or whatever, but it is likely to be situational. Big cluster, etc. There are places where you would want your own people, and there would also likely be Cartel people eager to try and run things themselves to prove themselves, and get their starts up the ladder.
Well, naturally. I suspect the ones eager to prove themselves get shuffled towards the Archangels or low-level administrative work, though; when it comes to espionage or drug shipment, over-eager hot shots would be a bad element to add to the mix.
On Beliefs:
I touched on the made up religion I came up with earlier, but I suspect that religiously the Cartel has a wild spectrum of stuff going on. It's a big organization, people from all over, basically the points from earlier.
*nodnod*
As far as philosophy, a couple of thoughts:
As far as morals etc: I think it depends on who you are talking about. The person born in Curse, for whom there was never anything wrong with any of what they do? The person recruited or captured when they were still a teenager or younger, whose ideas were still in the midst of being formed, and there easily molded to the Cartel's culture? Or the person who is an adult, probably already with some degree of power, who decided to join or work with the cartel, and whose framework for right and wrong might have fit the Cartel's all along, and now they have happily found eachother?
Well, naturally. If everybody's the same to begin with, what's the point of enforcing tight discipline?
Of course, all of those are subject to a 'to one degree or another'. People can have doubts, or conversely, take it too far. Backstabbing of a kind might be rewarded, but I think even for the Cartel there might be (various) culturally acceptable ways of doing it.
My guess would be that there are two. Either:
1. Don't get caught
or
2. Pull it off in such a spectacular manner that you instantly establish your credentials as a brilliant, ruthless son of a bitch who can walk into the harsh light of scrutiny and likely discipline with a wicked grin.
The first is less demanding. The latter is a quick way to either leap up the ladder or face merciless retribution, depending on your performance.
I think #2 would be walking a fine line: Who you pissed off, exactly what you did, etc. Spectacular is all well and good, but if it is, for example, at the expense of someone much further up the ladder than you, and you don't eliminate them, and anyone they might have been allied with, or who might now feel threatened by you, you are potentially in it up to your neck.
I can't see such a large organization having tendencies that would encourage bold, blatant moves against higher ranking members. Part of the point of being higher up the ladder is securing yourself against that sort of thing. Not to say it doesn't happen, it just seems to me that a bold move against someone outside the Cartel would be a more likely route to quick advancement with less chance of it backfiring. Take territory from someone. Find and execute a CONCORD informant. Those kind of things.
In fact, I think for the Cartel, there might be a sort of enforced 'cult of loyalty', like you see in a lot of organized crime now and in the recent past. Not like they are so virtuous that they wouldn't think about betrayal, ofc. But for instance if you are going to throw your superior to CONCORD in order to advance, you best make sure noone finds out you're a rat. If you have someone killed, make sure that you have a good pretext, or that it can't be traced. That kind of thing.
Retribution wouldn't be so much about outrage, or based in love for the injured party, but it would be based around the fact you were incompetent enough to get caught, not to mention the threat you pose if you are known to use those tactics.
I'd agree-- that's sort of what I was getting at with my "basic precepts you teach to any street punk you want to use."
One thing, though: retribution for a breach of a loyalty cult is absolutely about outrage, at least in the lower echelons. If you broke faith, if you ratted on your friends, you broke the rules, you broke your word, you broke trust. You did all of that in a context where trust in one's compatriots is about the only thing that allows such criminals to work together, thus rendering you not only utterly unreliable but also a treacherous snake.
The bullet you'd get in your head (possibly after several long, unpleasant hours) would be both a practical and a moral judgment.
I think that, ofc, in the lower echelons it would be a *belief* rather than a rational 'this is what's good for the organization, us doing it this way'. However, I think whether it is a belief or not isn't the important thing. People who believe it would be equipped to operate in the Cartel, and peopel who don't believe it, but understand what it's for would be equipped to work in the Cartel. People who don't believe it, and don't either understand it or act like they believed it would be in trouble.
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FWIW, I interpreted that statement as Naka did. "If you want to liaison (sic) with... the Angels in general," then work through me.
Perhaps it's just a case of unfortunate wording. I haven't had IC interaction to know. But it does sound unfortunate.
Oh, entirely agreed. That's just not the only possible interpretation-- nor, from looking at subsequent commentary, was that the intended interpretation.
I tend to consider people entitled to the benefit of the doubt until they make it plain that they 1. really, actually, unambiguously did say that eye-rolling thing and 2. meant to say it.
JFK is entitled to the benefit of the doubt for declaring himself a jelly doughnut ("Ich bin ein Berliner!" as opposed to "Ich bin Berliner!").
Joe Barton is not entitled to the benefit of the doubt for apologizing to BP for the White House "shakedown" or for declaring that wind energy is not renewable because windmills block wind. [/facepalm]
This case, here, doesn't even strike me as getting to the level of JFK's comments. It can easily be interpreted as you and Nakatre did, but could also have been interpreted to mean, "If you want to get in touch with us or want us to put you in touch with the larger Angel community, contact us."
It could also refer to "contacting the Cartel" in much the same way as Havohej has done by acquiring slaves from Nakatre and myself in the past.
Takes a little more effort, but still well within the realm of what could have been meant. Mind you, that doesn't mean that it was a jewel of a sentence. The sentence could have been a good deal clearer.
Anyhow-- Nakatre seems to differ with me on interpretation, while I differ with Nakatre on appropriate reaction.
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Oh, certainly. I would also extend what I said and say that in some number of years or decades, a very common mixed language might emerge that might be called the Cartel's own.
Can anybody give us a good fix on just how long the Cartel has existed? I've got a sense of it being somewhere between forty and eighty years, but I'm by no means sure.
If so, that's easily long enough for a pidgin mix to have developed as everybody learns a little of everybody else's language and starts sort of speaking in all of them at once.
I think there is likely a strong central leadership, though I think there is probably internal stuff which probably does run bloody sometimes. They would just be careful to show a united front to everyone else.
I think that more than a central leadership - although that is an important component - external pressure keeps the Cartel together. They are as large as they can be, so that CONCORD, or Sansha, or The Republic, or... don't destroy them. Fracturing would make the survivors easy pickings.
Hm.
An analogue might be Mexican drug cartels. They are as large as they are not only because some few individuals made them that way, but because smaller groups have been destroyed or absorbed. They fight among themselves and against the national government. That external pressure - along with their central authorities - keeps them together and defines their limits.
There is a fairly clear chain of command, but that isn't the same as tight organization. Having a hierarchy isn't the same as having a plan.
There's another issue at hand, though: (alleged) Jovian tech, or, at minimum, a potent technological edge. The Serpentis "faction" ships are Guardian Angel work, and the Angels, of course, also have their own.
Dividing would mean either compromising or outright sacrificing that edge: whatever group had ye olde R&D department would have a frightful advantage over a sufficiently extended timeline. Even if it was divided, each group would have less capability than they all collectively would possess if they worked together.
I think the Angels do have a "plan," and their edge in technology plays a significant role in that. Keeping that edge requires dedication, coordination, organization-- and cooperation.
Not that things don't get Machiavellian-- it's just that I doubt the Dominations are in any way loosely joined.
How many in the Cartel are natives to Curse to such a degree that they couldn't blend in other places, and how many are recruited from the Empires?
I never saw the Angels as a cartel run by people native to Curse. I always saw them as an organization that had drawn it's people at pretty much every level from far and wide.
True, it's old enough that there might have been a few generations born in Curse now, but is there a special accent? Some other defining feature that separates them enough that they would stand out so blatantly?
There well might be for some, but my suspicion would be that there are enough people in the organization - even 2nd, 3rd generation, that could pass in the Empires that it might not be much of a problem for the Cartel as a whole.
Thing is, once you get to the second generation, you start running into cultural conflicts. Second-generation Korean-Americans do not enjoy a very good reputation for "blending in" in Korea, if I recall, and by the time you get to third generation, well....
Those who live in a given culture face pressure to conform to it. When the culture they are brought up in a culture distinct from their parents' home culture, noticeable difference is probably inevitable.
I think #2 would be walking a fine line: Who you pissed off, exactly what you did, etc. Spectacular is all well and good, but if it is, for example, at the expense of someone much further up the ladder than you, and you don't eliminate them, and anyone they might have been allied with, or who might now feel threatened by you, you are potentially in it up to your neck.
But of course! All part of the game....
I can't see such a large organization having tendencies that would encourage bold, blatant moves against higher ranking members. Part of the point of being higher up the ladder is securing yourself against that sort of thing. Not to say it doesn't happen, it just seems to me that a bold move against someone outside the Cartel would be a more likely route to quick advancement with less chance of it backfiring. Take territory from someone. Find and execute a CONCORD informant. Those kind of things.
Granted. Might also explain why all those little frigates merrily swarm capsuleers with such abandon. ;)
I think that, ofc, in the lower echelons it would be a *belief* rather than a rational 'this is what's good for the organization, us doing it this way'. However, I think whether it is a belief or not isn't the important thing. People who believe it would be equipped to operate in the Cartel, and peopel who don't believe it, but understand what it's for would be equipped to work in the Cartel. People who don't believe it, and don't either understand it or act like they believed it would be in trouble.
Hm. Yes. Good de-generalization. Thanks.
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How many in the Cartel are natives to Curse to such a degree that they couldn't blend in other places, and how many are recruited from the Empires?
I never saw the Angels as a cartel run by people native to Curse. I always saw them as an organization that had drawn it's people at pretty much every level from far and wide.
True, it's old enough that there might have been a few generations born in Curse now, but is there a special accent? Some other defining feature that separates them enough that they would stand out so blatantly?
There well might be for some, but my suspicion would be that there are enough people in the organization - even 2nd, 3rd generation, that could pass in the Empires that it might not be much of a problem for the Cartel as a whole.
Thing is, once you get to the second generation, you start running into cultural conflicts. Second-generation Korean-Americans do not enjoy a very good reputation for "blending in" in Korea, if I recall, and by the time you get to third generation, well....
Those who live in a given culture face pressure to conform to it. When the culture they are brought up in a culture distinct from their parents' home culture, noticeable difference is probably inevitable.
This raises, in my mind, questions about the 'culture' of the Cartel itself. With the United States and Korea, you have two pre-existing cultures that run into each other. There is a new language, a new culture, a new society - and things that reinforce those: Schools, peers, general societal pressure to conform.
Even with all these things, you often find people self-segregating by ethnicity.
The Cartel, if it's 80 years old, hasn't had time to get all that stuff. What language does a third generation Cartel kid whose family is from the State grow up speaking? Do they live in a 'Caldari' section of the Station? Etc.
I think that the idea of there being an emergent culture in the Cartel in the midst of developing is fascinating.
I'm not sure whether a second or third or fourth generation resident of Curse would be able to blend in or not, based on the above. I think it gets a lot less likely with each generation, though.
Thing is, we also don't know when large groups of immigrants might have come in. We don't know how the society is set up. Lots we don't know. :D
Edit: Also, being able to travel somewhere your ancestors came from and simply blend in is different than training to blend in. Particularly with a place as big as the cluster, they could use things like, "Oh, yeah, I'm from a couple systems over' for minor discrepancies, right?
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Silver the internal 'few generations in' culture was actually what I started looking at when I began this conjecture, and ICly, Nikita was actually born on Utopia, and was a third generation Angel. So that's the cultural perspective I was really interested in and I'd really like to see what comes out of it.
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On the age of the Angel Cartel:
The Third Empire was founded half a millennium ago amidst the devastation of the Jovian Disease.
Some couple of centuries later, when space traveling had become a common thing, the constellation was entered by migrating scavenger groups. Many of those groups set themselves up within the constellation and eventually they evolved into criminal organizations. The strongest of those was the Angel cartel.
This implies the Cartel existed in some form around 300 years ago.
They established themselves in Utopia system a century ago and soon had the whole Heaven constellation under their control.
The Cartel became the dominant power in the area a century ago, given it's history as a scavenger group, mercenary force, and finally military power the Cartel seems to have quite a varied, and long, history.
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This implies the Cartel existed in some form around 300 years ago.
They established themselves in Utopia system a century ago and soon had the whole Heaven constellation under their control.
The Cartel became the dominant power in the area a century ago, given it's history as a scavenger group, mercenary force, and finally military power the Cartel seems to have quite a varied, and long, history.
Perfect! Thank you. It's been way too long since I read that chronicle, clearly.
One hundred years plus ... yeah, that's long enough to develop some cultural uniqueness and linguistic quirks. Easily.
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There are Amarr holders and plenty others old enough to remember, and possibly have had dealings with, the Angels as a scavenger group before or during their settlement of Curse. While in their time serving as 'muscle for hire' they likely saw contracts from empire corporations and other groups and individuals (including those in Curse they later defeated or co-opted).
It's no surprise that the Angel Cartel has managed to turn all those contacts into the many pied hand their data network has become. With the rumoured Jovian tech up for grabs to all in Curse this was probably the one thing that set them apart from, and above, the other groups operating there.
For such a small chronicle 'Heaven', like many early chrons, is as much a goldmine as you make it.
Enjoying the thread, looking into the Cartel heavily at the moment, keep the data flowing. :D
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I wonder where the Cartel folks came from originally, then?
I mean, they were, it seems likely, relatively small at some point > 100 years ago. Then *something*. Then they are the dominant force.
Going from just another group of scavengers to something else suggests to me something beyond just finding some Jovian tech that might have put them ahead. It suggests that at some point in there they might have had (an) ambitious leader(s) that saw the opportunities and was willing to grab them.
It also suggests to me that they would have needed a lot more man power within a relatively short (coupla-few decades?) length of time. Given Curse's location, what would the early cultural influences have been? A very young Republic, a young Mandate, and the Empire?
Given the timing, might the original, smaller Cartel have been created by veterans of the rebellion? They'd have the skills, connections, etc.
I looked at the timeline (which I know isn't always the most accurate place to look) and it places the rebellion about 130 or so years ago.
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I mean, they were, it seems likely, relatively small at some point > 100 years ago. Then *something*. Then they are the dominant force.
Going from just another group of scavengers to something else suggests to me something beyond just finding some Jovian tech that might have put them ahead. It suggests that at some point in there they might have had (an) ambitious leader(s) that saw the opportunities and was willing to grab them.
I think that's a very good question. How involved are the Angel Cartel with the Jovians? It may not just be about 'they stumbled onto some tech'. Wonder if there's some chron or obscure lore out there to make that sort of connection. I haven't read the novels, so I'm at a loss there too on referances.
Any dedicated Cartel lorekeepers? ;)
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i heard there was a jovian notmoon in The Burning Life, but i haven't read it yet.
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My sense of it is that the Angels just scavenged and salvaged some old Jovian facilities. The Jove don't seem to particularly approve of the Cartel; I don't see the Cartel offering to sell the salvage back to the Jove, and I don't see the Jove offering to help the Cartel interpret what it found.
So, assuming that Angel tech is what it is widely suspected to be, it's probably plain old reverse-engineering, and very much a work in progress.
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i heard there was a jovian notmoon in The Burning Life, but i haven't read it yet.
A what? I don't recall anything particularly Jovian in TBL at all.
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I mean, they were, it seems likely, relatively small at some point > 100 years ago. Then *something*. Then they are the dominant force.
Going from just another group of scavengers to something else suggests to me something beyond just finding some Jovian tech that might have put them ahead. It suggests that at some point in there they might have had (an) ambitious leader(s) that saw the opportunities and was willing to grab them.
I think that's a very good question. How involved are the Angel Cartel with the Jovians? It may not just be about 'they stumbled onto some tech'. Wonder if there's some chron or obscure lore out there to make that sort of connection. I haven't read the novels, so I'm at a loss there too on referances.
Any dedicated Cartel lorekeepers? ;)
The books hold little information on the matter. It is said by one ex-Cartel member in TBL that the "prevailing myth" of Jovian technology is what gives the Angel's an edge, not so much the technology itself. The same book later has Hona (from Blackmountain) state that the Angel Cartel "acquired their power from Jovian technology, left here for us like poisonous little candies." In any case it would seem the matter is kept obscure.
Probably so that people pick over that and forget all about this:
Little is known about the identities of the leaders of the Angel Cartel, though it is understood they come from all the races.
And this:
The majority of the Jovian population relocated in the Motherships. Those showing any sign of the Disease were left behind to die.
The key point of the first is the word 'all'. The key point in the second is that being 'left behind to die' does not actually mean that they did.
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i heard there was a jovian notmoon in The Burning Life, but i haven't read it yet.
A what? I don't recall anything particularly Jovian in TBL at all.
No wonder the rock was so dense on the asteroid. It wasn't just rock.
He managed, 'The entire colony..' before his voice trailed off,
'Is more alive than you can imagine. It listens, remembers and contains. It gives life. It breathes, and it's exhalations are pure air.'
'How was this place made?'
She gave a very human shrug, 'Why made? Who said it wasn't grown?'
Hona herself, altered by the Book of Emptiness during the events of Blackmountain, resides on the colony. Her relationship with the Cartel is unclear. She "Seems to have withdrawn from Angel life of her own free will" and is "apparently seen as a wise woman".
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Ohhh yes, I remember now. Thank you for the reminder! :)
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The majority of the Jovian population relocated in the Motherships. Those showing any sign of the Disease were left behind to die.
The key point of the first is the word 'all'. The key point in the second is that being 'left behind to die' does not actually mean that they did.
oh well....now that is clever...
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This raises, in my mind, questions about the 'culture' of the Cartel itself. With the United States and Korea, you have two pre-existing cultures that run into each other. There is a new language, a new culture, a new society - and things that reinforce those: Schools, peers, general societal pressure to conform.
Even with all these things, you often find people self-segregating by ethnicity.
I sent Nikita an article about this sort of thing last night while the site was down: http://www.miaminewtimes.com/content/printVersion/237654 (http://www.miaminewtimes.com/content/printVersion/237654)
Self-segregation is a pretty popular response to cultural pressures, but so is syncretism. Afro-Carib religions are a fertile (and familiar) ground for this sort of process. I would expect native Angels to have a gamut of beliefs, starting from relatively 'pure' beliefs from first-generation immigrants and then ranging out to things like 'Minmatar tattoos keep your soul in so that Ida-spirits can't rip them out and stick them in somebody else' and '<Gallentean moon goddess> lives on our moon, on the third tier of the production stack and is being hunted by Lokis'.
I think, given the wierd pidgins of folklore, traditional practices and half-explained religious beliefs, people raised in the environment would, at least some of the time, produce religious creoles. And probably actual creoles from actual pidgins, too ;)
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Black Mountain states that there are a great mix of people on Angel Cartel stations. Given that the Cartel is also said to be tightly run and highly organized, with a multi-racial leadership, I imagine segregation is discouraged. The Angels welcome everyone regardless of history or race. They operate in more like a nation with an army than a just pirate group and they likely don't want ethnic groups forming within the ranks. Especially since the troubles regarding a large number of Minmatar finding racially based reasons to leave the organization.
Do your part. Trust the Cartel.
This sounds like the slogan of a group who are unified in an us and them that isn't about internal divisions by race. Of course that's not to say such groups don't exist and that there isn't some interesting RP to be had around the idea, but it is the kind of thing I imagine ranking Angel's, with their survivalist outlook, military organization, and varied origins would look down on.
The racial variety of the Angel Cartel is, after all, one of it's main strengths.
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So we're left with look at what happens when you take all the existing cultures in eve, smash them together, and instill a survivalist attitude in them.
It probably wouldn't be quite as clear how they'd end up then one would think, remember what Simon said, look at the Afro-Caribbean groups, their culture is entirely unique, and while the roots can be seen, they've grown into something rather different then anything we've seen before.
And yes, Nihilism, and a defeatist attitude are probably fairly common within certain circles, I think there is another thing to take into account. Hope. The people that make up the Cartel have a home, they have people who see them as human beings, possibly for the first time in their lives. Life in the cartel is likely to be hard, and rough, a sort of frontier life. But that in mind, the people who live it still are very likely to love it, and find it rewarding. There would be this idea that, no one cares who I am, who I was, or what I've done. They've likely had just as many problems as me, and they accept me, no questions asked, and I accept them, no questions asked.
I've always sort of imagined it as an insult in the cartel to pry into someone's past, as its a violation of that unspoken trust that the entire cartel is built upon. The cartel doesn't see race, doesn't see past deeds, they see people.
That's a very, very powerful bonding agent, easily strong enough to overcome the bonds of the previous cultures of these people, and instill in them a disrespect for humanity outside the cartel to warrant the gleeful violations of human rights that cartel indulges in.
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When I read about the Angel Cartel, the word "organized crime" immediately springs to mind. It's an organization built on making a profit, and that's about as far as loyalty goes between members (see "The Sopranos"). The organization is tightly knit because everyone is motivated toward the same goal, making money, and you can be sure everyone's taking a cut, starting with the guy on the top and moving down. The guys who don't make money for the organization get to swim in vacuum, so one can be sure the guys at 'street' level are scouting for new potentials that may have already earned a reputation.
What I find interesting is they have their slimy fingers in everything and everywhere in all the empires, and probably make a majority of their money there. That means they probably have all castes of society in their pockets, working in their favor or 'looking the other way' when necessary.
I've always been a big fan of the Cartel (as Nakatre knows ♥), and I think the organized crime angle has tremendous potential for development and roleplay opportunity. Organized crime has always established itself from the 'riff raff' of street gangs and sociopaths by using the illusion of a 'code', or standards that they live by beyond simple violence.
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I've always been a big fan of the Cartel (as Nakatre knows ♥), and I think the organized crime angle has tremendous potential for development and roleplay opportunity.
I concur. Particularly in Empire, the Cartel seems to be very much an "organized crime" organization. The trick is getting that to work with the whole "interstellar demigod" thing.
Making it work is Nakatre's angle.
We've discussed that just a bit, here. I look forward to seeing what she, and Stillwater generally, manage to do with it.
Any further thoughts, yourself?
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Uh, well I think a 'neat' angle for a capsuleer organization would be similar to that of a mafia style outfit, where the boss expects his cut of the pie from his lieutenants (after a certain period, like a month), and they in turn oversee their 'people' at street level to make sure they are generating an income for them. It would start out as a gang though, and the individuals that set themselves apart as leaders and income makers would get bumped up as lieutenants. If they don't perform well, they might get pushed under someone else.
Extortion, ransom, drugs, smuggling, slaves, basically anything that can make 'em a profit would be commonplace. Newbies are brought in and shown the ropes, and while they might get some leeway at first there would definitely be expectation for success. It would ensure a tight-knit unit of killers that know their business, and I think new players would be intrigued enough to get into it.
Just my opinion though; if I had time (away from being sanshaz0rs) I'd be pursuing that.
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In terms of culture and that, the Angel Cartel, though it operates like an empire according to TBL, is still a pirate organization as others have said.
What I find damned attractive about it, is that I imagine Curse (planetwise) is a lawless region inhabited by people who are just barely trying to get by, but they are held together by the irongrip of the Cartel above them.
An impoverished society has little time to develop culture. Think of Terminus Systems from Mass Effect 2. That's what makes it so damned unique, and I love it. Trying to make it like one of the 4 empires removes all the flavour; it's designed to be completely different.
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Hmm. Criminal culture.
One of Aria's earlier posts in this thread reminded me slightly (in it's style) of a writer named Scott Lynch. He is currently writing a fantasy series called the Gentleman Bastard series. The first book is "The Lies of Locke Lamora." I can't recommend it too highly. Also the sequel "Red Seas Under Red Skies" has a lot of interesting idea about seaborne pirates.
However.
The lead character, Locke Lamora, is a priest of the Hidden Thirteenth. This is the thieves god of the setting and his credo is summed up in a pithy little saying.
Thieves Prosper. The Rich Remember.
Thieves prosper means a servant of the thirteenth should strive to ensure that the criminal community can go on and support it's members. Hopefully in lavish style.
The rich remember means that it is the place of followers of the thirteenth to ensure that those in power are regularly reminded that they are only mortal and entropy applies to them as well. A task that would be all too necessary in the EVE world of "Immortal demi-gods" and the like.
Likely no use at all in this discussion but you never know.
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The rich remember means that it is the place of followers of the thirteenth to ensure that those in power are regularly reminded that they are only mortal and entropy applies to them as well. A task that would be all too necessary in the EVE world of "Immortal demi-gods" and the like.
Likely no use at all in this discussion but you never know.
Well ...
On the one hand, the Angel Cartel hasn't been so good, canonically speaking, at reminding said quasi-immortal demigods of their mortality, etc. Its technological advantage kinda evaporates against capsuleers.
On the other hand, taking the eggers down a peg would make WONDERFUL motivation for a no-holds-barred, Cartel-oriented, full-service scamming, pirating, and infiltration society.
That would be tear-jerkingly beautiful, that would. If, that is, such a society could be properly established. If "pirates" are kind of a select group, then "able role-playing infiltrators and scammers" are close to non-existent.
Anyone feel like trying to recruit Istvaan Shogatsu?
(I kid. Mostly.)
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Well Aria the thing is.....nah. Shouldn't spoil the surprise.
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The rich remember means that it is the place of followers of the thirteenth to ensure that those in power are regularly reminded that they are only mortal and entropy applies to them as well. A task that would be all too necessary in the EVE world of "Immortal demi-gods" and the like.
Likely no use at all in this discussion but you never know.
Well ...
On the one hand, the Angel Cartel hasn't been so good, canonically speaking, at reminding said quasi-immortal demigods of their mortality, etc. Its technological advantage kinda evaporates against capsuleers.
On the other hand, taking the eggers down a peg would make WONDERFUL motivation for a no-holds-barred, Cartel-oriented, full-service scamming, pirating, and infiltration society.
That would be tear-jerkingly beautiful, that would. If, that is, such a society could be properly established. If "pirates" are kind of a select group, then "able role-playing infiltrators and scammers" are close to non-existent.
Anyone feel like trying to recruit Istvaan Shogatsu?
(I kid. Mostly.)
People do have strong feelings about how RPable that stuff is (covered largely in another thread.)
My personal feeling is that it is RPable, but you have to have the social engineering skills OOC for your character to have them IC. Just the way it is. There will also likely be an OOC component, cause that is the way most corps work, which isn't avoidable, and I think anyone going into it would be aware that it could result in OOC as well as IC hard feelings.
It would be awesome, though, as far as I'm concerned.
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If anyone's interested in that angle, feel free to PM me. You might have noticed via my blog that I'm looking at exploring that angle. :)
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Yeah.
Think it would need to be a loosely organized group, rather than an actual corporation. Sort of an issue when you look at someone's employment history and, for example, GHSC is on there.
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I figure it might be a good idea to start thinking of little things that define cartel culture, and that make sense to exist the way they do, sort of an example of what happens when you morph and twist the existing cultures of the cluster.
That in mind, I thought of the Voluval. There are the three outcast marks for the matari, the Slaver fangs, the pale eye, and the broken shield. Now what pool does the Cartel recruit heavily from? Outcasts.
So the outcast marks could be really fairly common within the cartel, but their meaning will have morphed, they become a symbol of the culture that abandoned them, as well as a sort of badge of honor within the cartel.
This is just one example to get the ball rolling, basically, the thought is thus, what sort of things would emerge out of the cartel? How would they twist and combine existing cultures to create a new one?
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So, I've been doing a bit of reading and I agree that it seems to be quite hard to put your finger on it.
Now, I'm not one for a wall of thread, as I was a journalist and I was taught the 'most information / least number of words' style of writing.
Culture:
They probably don't have one. The culture as a whole seems to be a massive brunswick stew of the entire galaxy. They are so diverse and so large that the chances of anything more than some slang words or common food dishes aren't likely to take root and grow.
I've noticed nihilism popping up often in this discussion. I agree completely... but I think there's something nobody has really touched on, unless I missed it. Maybe my experience in the Marines is where I'm pulling this from but...
Wars are never fought by the sons of the rich. Armies don't pull from the wealthy, those are your doctors and lawyers... your educated members of society. Wars are fought by the poor, the underprivileged and the outcasts. I can tell you of few Marines, especially the infantry guys, who were educated or didn't come from a broken home or the shitty part of whatever shitty town they lived in. You don't join the military because it sounds awesome generally, you typically pick college first. Military ranks swell from those who don't have any options. I didn't have any options when I joined.
I think this is an important thing to consider when trying to put yourself in the mind of an Angel to decide what keeps him loyal and what keeps them moving along. They joined because of lack of options, because membership offers food, shelter, a sense of belonging finally and a sense of purpose. They are united in the fact that they all lived fucked up lives before they came to the Angels and it instills a certain sense of camaraderie in them. And once you eat, sleep, drink, shit, sweat and bleed with the same group of guys long enough, you see them to be more as family. However, on the same hand, the cutthroat ideal of self-preservation is still very much there.
So, in effect, what you end up having seems to be a bit of a contradiction of ideals when it's actually not. Their common background of shittiness, along with the natural instinct to survive at any cost is what keeps the constant in-fighting possible without threatening loyalties to the group as a whole.
Other than that, I'm with Aria and Ember as far as everything else goes... no need to re-hash it
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Sorry, but when I think of the Cartel, it is all I can do to get Badger from firefly out of my head.
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Firefly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firefly_%28TV_series%29) was a short lived Old West in space with a ton of character and is really enjoyable to watch.
As for Badger as an example of the Cartel "agent", I am not sure. He seems like someone who would deal with the larger Cartel, but is happy to be his local crime lord.
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Regarding the Angel Cartel, there are two things that I've long held in mind and wondered about. I'll elaborate on these, the why, and how it ties in with my character.
Firstly, Feythabolis. When first I saw this region, it was given a status as a quasi-Empire in it's own right; Ascenia, ASCN's 'nation'. No other alliance I've ever seen have ever been close to ruling their own Empire in this regard. Yet Ascenia was not empty of life; the Angel Cartel was all over it, the Frontier forces all over them in turn. For a while I wondered why this was so, after all all stations in Feythabolis was made by Frontier members, purely created by the capsuleers holding the space. So where did the Angels base out of?
Regional description:
Feythabolis
The human diaspora throughout the systems of New Eden was quite widespread prior to the collapse of the EVE Gate. In many areas, cultures cut off from other civilizations thrived in isolation. One of these regions was Feythabolis, a relatively small empire of progressive thinkers and egalitarian political philosophers. Unfortunately, this state lagged behind other empires significantly in technological advancement, having only recently started to colonize the local space just as the ruthless Angel Cartel was moving in to establish their control. Completely outclassed by the military forces of the Cartel, the fledgling empire was defeated with ease and its entire population bent to the will of the Angels.
So, given the above conversation about how the Cartel operate, what would happen to these people? I'd assume most would, in time, conform to the 'Angel way' – they would join the Cartel, helping to explain the Cartel's man-power supply, as they appear to have much, much more of it than the other 'criminal' elements in EVE. Add their extreme variety and the acceptance of all who manage to make it into the organization, and the acquisition of new recruits should not be too hard.
Many others, I'm assuming those who did not make the cut, or resist, or other undesirables, would likely be enslaved, sold to anyone who would buy them and/or use them for manual/dangerous labor.
How the Cartel went about acquire these worlds, what happened after and how life may be for the average dirt-side person out there now is something I've always wondered about, and it would be interesting if a chronicle or something was made to reflect on this and other 'lesser known' factions in EVE.
Secondly, the idea that the Cartel is a quasi-Empire in their own right; some might not like this idea, but they sure are powerful enough and diverse enough to be more than mere 'criminal thugs' in the longer run. The average grunt perhaps, but something tells me the truly successful Angels don't stroll around in your average 'space pirate' outfit; more like the garb fitting a king, living in his own castle. Until another, stronger, more sly King dethrones him, perhaps.
Building on this, if the Cartel wish to expand more and possibly manage to topple the Empires, their main opponents, and arguably considerably bigger dogs in the kennel, military might alone will not be sufficient. I imagine one method at least for one of the Empires: The Federation, and the Serpentis holds this method.
Through their deal with the Serpents, the Angels have secured a long-term ability to possibly win a war with the Federation; not a conflict merely of weapons, or ships or troops. A war of wills, the Federation's will to curtail and tone down one aspect of their own culture (ironic, is it not?) and the Angel's will to exploit that to maximum effect. Creating ever more imaginative and effective ways to smuggle their drugs into the Fed and creating more powerful and popular drugs for the easily impressed and free youth of the Fed (and other Empires) to become addicted to, they would seek to win a war of cultural subjugation; when enough of the Federation craves what they give, the Serpentis and their Angel allies/masters can set any term or price they desire. Reminds me of the greater goal of the Outcasts, from Freelancer.
As a Federal, Allisieer despised the Serpents with a horrible passion for the above reason and all the effects you can imagine the Serpents have on a society he holds dear. Eventually, all this muddles back to the Angels; they protect, aid, fund and I dear say guide the Serpentis. It is a bit sad, but it could be claimed that the Serpentis are the Angel's pets, though I've not seen it elaborated anywhere exactly how their relationship works, only that the two benefit from the alliance, and quite a lot at that. When the greater good is to be considered, for Allisieer the inhumane truth was/is that all Angels, Serpents and their collaborators and allies, family, friends, relatives etc. must all be shot. That is however a subject for another place and time.
In the end I'd say the Angel's are one of the more interesting pirate factions considering their methods, ways, and power. CONCORD has them pegged as the nr1 threat, for good reason too. What I wonder about however is, as I said, the above two things; thier relations with the Serpents and their actions in the various Empires, and the way thier... 'relationship' works in regards to their subjects in Feyth. Anyone have any ideas?
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Firefly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firefly_%28TV_series%29) was a short lived Old West in space with a ton of character and is really enjoyable to watch.
As for Badger as an example of the Cartel "agent", I am not sure. He seems like someone who would deal with the larger Cartel, but is happy to be his local crime lord.
Sort of my point. Based on everything I have read of the cartel this is exactly what you would have. Absolutely zero top-down leadership or organization that is actually formal. More a "coalition" of territorial bosses working for each others common good and/or bad if it comes to it.
The Guristas and Serpentis absolutely reek of an organized crime model with a "godfather" and whatnot. The Angels seem more like a "you scratch my back i'll scratch yours" model.
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Firefly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firefly_%28TV_series%29) was a short lived Old West in space with a ton of character and is really enjoyable to watch.
As for Badger as an example of the Cartel "agent", I am not sure. He seems like someone who would deal with the larger Cartel, but is happy to be his local crime lord.
Sort of my point. Based on everything I have read of the cartel this is exactly what you would have. Absolutely zero top-down leadership or organization that is actually formal. More a "coalition" of territorial bosses working for each others common good and/or bad if it comes to it.
The Guristas and Serpentis absolutely reek of an organized crime model with a "godfather" and whatnot. The Angels seem more like a "you scratch my back i'll scratch yours" model.
You see, I just did now get that feel from the Guristas, they always stuck me as having the loose organization. The Angels from what I've seen are incredibly organized, and have a lot of intricate plans that trace through their leadership.
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Firefly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firefly_%28TV_series%29) was a short lived Old West in space with a ton of character and is really enjoyable to watch.
As for Badger as an example of the Cartel "agent", I am not sure. He seems like someone who would deal with the larger Cartel, but is happy to be his local crime lord.
Sort of my point. Based on everything I have read of the cartel this is exactly what you would have. Absolutely zero top-down leadership or organization that is actually formal. More a "coalition" of territorial bosses working for each others common good and/or bad if it comes to it.
The Guristas and Serpentis absolutely reek of an organized crime model with a "godfather" and whatnot. The Angels seem more like a "you scratch my back i'll scratch yours" model.
You see, I just did now get that feel from the Guristas, they always stuck me as having the loose organization. The Angels from what I've seen are incredibly organized, and have a lot of intricate plans that trace through their leadership.
At the same time though Niki, Angel society is much more tiered than the Guristas are. Much like most loosely knit crime syndicates. Guristas is very centralized whereas the Angels have what, 4 NPC corporations?
This would indicate a much more loose and liberal approach to their operations, especially considering that each of the Angel NPC corps does the same thing just on different levels (of trust perhaps?) than the Guristas, who basically have a yarr branch and a build shit for yarring branch.
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Archangels:
"The main arm of the Angel Cartel, the Archangels have no one center of operation, but can be seen roaming the space lanes most everywhere. They are equally adapt at piracy, scavenging and smuggling. "
I.E. random dudes doing random stuff. No organization.
Dominations:
"The Dominations is the command division of the Angel Cartel. The Dominations are quite elusive and seldom venture far from their bases in the Curse region. Little is known about the identities of the leaders of the Angel Cartel, though it is understood they come from all the races."
I.E. the backscratchers who loosely coordinate favors for each other based on timing and need, but go about their business independently when there is no need. Key word is "bases" rather than "base".
Guardian Angels:
"The Guardian Angels is a division of the Angel Cartel that are today exclusively occupied with guarding Serpentis space stations. The Serpentis Corporation pays the Angel Cartel handsomely for the protection, that is strong enough to keep even the DED at bay. "
Members of the cartel-as-a-whole who formed a fraternity to run a specified protection racket.
Salvation Angels:
"The Salvation Angels are the non-combat division of the Angel Cartel. The Salvation Angels are responsible for building and maintaining the Angels stations and space ships. For this, they frequently salvage what they need from the wrecks their fellow Angels have left behind."
Another random gaggle of cartel members who can't cut it in combat who formed a sub-cartel to fill a niche. Taking jobs that are worth it, and working others when the pay ain't so good.
Not really sure how much experience you have with organized crime, but the angels are the perfect example of opportunist individual type syndicates. There isn't one boss, there are many, and they are all competing against each other. Everyone from top to bottom comes and goes as they please.
This is why the Angels have their hands in so many pies. Nobody is telling any given angel to "do this or else".
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Today, The Angel Cartel is the largest and best organized of the space-based criminal factions. The Angels are divided into several groups, each with a very special function. It is commanded by the Dominations and in the century they've been lurking in deep space they have stolen, plundered or sabotaged countless number of ships and kidnapped, molested or murdered thousands of people. The Angels recruit members from all the races, and are thus not bound to any one zone of operation, which spans almost the entire known world. Many believe that the Angels got their power by uncovering Jovian technologies hidden in their ancient homes, now infested by the Angel Cartel.
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Angel_Cartel
Just because we don't have any info as to how they're organized, doesn't mean they aren't
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Today, The Angel Cartel is the largest and best organized of the space-based criminal factions. The Angels are divided into several groups, each with a very special function. It is commanded by the Dominations and in the century they've been lurking in deep space they have stolen, plundered or sabotaged countless number of ships and kidnapped, molested or murdered thousands of people. The Angels recruit members from all the races, and are thus not bound to any one zone of operation, which spans almost the entire known world. Many believe that the Angels got their power by uncovering Jovian technologies hidden in their ancient homes, now infested by the Angel Cartel.
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Angel_Cartel
Just because we don't have any info as to how they're organized, doesn't mean they aren't
Thanks for proving my point. "Organized" when it comes to criminal organizations, is entirely different than any sort of corporate or military structure.
The Angel "on the ground", including the Archangels, is going to be free to pursue any activity entirely independent of any sort of command structure, and I am sure that would apply to capsuleer recruits as well. Why wouldn't it.
The Guristas are a paramilitary. The Serpentis are a drug cartel. The Angels are obviously a "get in where you fit in, just make sure you pay the local boss" organization.
Sure the fat cats have it all set up on top, but that is the extent of it in my eyes. As long as they get a cut, they don't fuck care who is doing what.
[admin]Saying 'Thanks for proving my point' is not something that contributes to a useful discussion. Similarly, things that are 'obvious' often aren't. I'm leaving this because there was useful discussion based on the rest of it, but please keep the guidelines in mind in the future.[/admin]
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Thanks for proving my point. "Organized" when it comes to criminal organizations, is entirely different than any sort of corporate or military structure.
... Except that, in what we see of them in the chronicles, etc., they appear to have a very military structure. See, e.g., "Tides of Change."
The Angel "on the ground", including the Archangels, is going to be free to pursue any activity entirely independent of any sort of command structure, and I am sure that would apply to capsuleer recruits as well. Why wouldn't it.
The Guristas are a paramilitary. The Serpentis are a drug cartel. The Angels are obviously a "get in where you fit in, just make sure you pay the local boss" organization.
I wouldn't say it's all that obvious, Boma.
"All right." Nale considered more questions, and could only come up with, "So what's Angel life like?"
"Disciplined."
Granted, Nale responds that he always thought that they were more like a family, but even if he is right that seems to suggest that they are more close-knit rather than less.
As an aside, I suggest checking out "Winter Came While You Were Away" and, especially, "Summer Breeze," to see how "drug cartel" -like the Serpentis are. All indications are that the Cartel is even more militarized. It built the Serpentis fleet.
Sure the fat cats have it all set up on top, but that is the extent of it in my eyes. As long as they get a cut, they don't fuck care who is doing what.
Once, I might possibly have agreed with you, but between the chronicles, PF (Dominations agents in Curse talk about fleet movements), and comments by authoritative sources ("The Angels are here, all marching in step," -CCP Abraxas, discussing The Burning Life), I couldn't disagree with you more.
What you describe would work reasonably if the Cartel were just a shadowy entity casting its corrupting tendrils through the empires. It is that, yes, but it's also so much more.
The Angel Cartel is CONCORD's number-one greatest threat. You don't get there by doing what you damn please.
Once, the Cartel was a gang. But between the deep secrets it has apparently uncovered and must protect, its multi-year war along its borders with Sansha's Nation, the massive numbers of planets and stations it controls (why would a military organization have only one base, incidentally?), and the militaristic structure the PF seems to give it, it seems plain:
At least in Curse, and at least in space, the Angel Cartel is far more than a mere criminal enterprise.
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I completely agree with you Aria.....
.....as long as we are in Curse.
I was speaking to the cultural aspect of the Cartel as a whole everywhere, not just in sovereign space, or in a military environment. How many pieces of PF are out there describing your average Cartel gang?
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[admin]Topic locked until someone can look at cleaning it up. (As I participated earlier, I'm going to see if another mod can handle it.)[/admin]
[admin]Cleaned up. Please remember that if you think someone is being off-topic or otherwise violating the guidelines, you should use the report button rather than responding. Just because you don't see relevance in something doesn't mean that others might not. Similarly, just because you don't agree with someone doesn't mean their analogies or ideas should be dismissed out of hand. It is a better idea to worry about the integrity of your own ideas by way of counter-example. Unlocked.[/admin]
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I prefer to just counter troll rather than present counter points :lol: