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[Arkon Sarain]

Maybe it was more a thing of the past, when Midular was still in office, which created a lot of tension and almost war between UK and EM for example. It was a very ambivalent relationship with the Amarr :she seeked to end slavery, but was pragmatic enough to live in an intergalactic cluster rather than a minmatar enclosed one. Which is one of he big issues with current leaders actually : they don't care about the bigger picture, they just care about their immediate interests and so go to war with everyone and make their factions look utterly stupid in the process.

I have noticed that, the thing about the current leaders, and it spurred on the event I am organising actually - if they can't be sensible we might be able to XD

But yes thank you for the answers and insight - actually a massive thank you to everyone, this has been a delight and pleasure to talk and get more informed

[Ayallah]

So you would say that you cannot be a Minmatar loyalist and articulate a position which seeks peaceful solutions to the issues of slavery and the Empire (to take one issue)? Surely as with any real life body politic the political field of the Republic and the Tribes is diverse with many competing views and positions. Enough that while IC a vehement anti-Amarr Minmatar would view the more conciliatory members of their society as traitors, OOC at least we can admit that they are both loyalists just with different political views on how to realise that loyalty?

No, I would not say that at all.  If anything the people who wrote and played militant characters have had to moderate themselves or just outright roll new characters just to be able to have anyone to RP with. In the last year and a half or so 'pro-peace minmatar' seemed to be coming into their own.  Unfortunately most intelligent Matari are neglecting to elaborate on exactly how we mean to have peace. (I'm guessing Malcolm not Martin Luther.) And yes I have seen very interesting and provoking inter-republican politics and dramatic schisms within republic politics and interpretations of how to free the slaves, who we are etc.... All great stuff. Actually with out a doubt the best RP I have had has always been arguing with other Minmatar about Minmatar stuff.  But its just like, ...three of us. 

As poor as the state of the minmatar RP is I still can't see myself RPing anything other than Minmatar.  I guess it takes a special kind of stupid or stubborn to fly around in ships bonused for projectile optimal waiting for the strength to free the slaves or god to step in and at least remove the in-game item with a lore bit as caldari gets another thousand player live event and you know the best RPers you have ever RP'd with are chained up to some failed plot line in Amarrian space just waiting to be freed.

So you can ride your motorcycle to where the Naglfar's are secretly not secretly the best dread. and Projectiles can hard counter anything if flown right and the slaves are free and we have a million sweet tattoos and all our ships stop coming out as gallante ships and fear the tribes.

So we sit here, chained and waiting for the day our plot line advances.  Protecting our line in the sand and waiting for minmatar to be half as good as it could be.

[Arkon Sarain]

So you would say that you cannot be a Minmatar loyalist and articulate a position which seeks peaceful solutions to the issues of slavery and the Empire (to take one issue)? Surely as with any real life body politic the political field of the Republic and the Tribes is diverse with many competing views and positions. Enough that while IC a vehement anti-Amarr Minmatar would view the more conciliatory members of their society as traitors, OOC at least we can admit that they are both loyalists just with different political views on how to realise that loyalty?

No, I would not say that at all.  If anything the people who wrote and played militant characters have had to moderate themselves or just outright roll new characters just to be able to have anyone to RP with. In the last year and a half or so 'pro-peace minmatar' seemed to be coming into their own.  Unfortunately most intelligent Matari are neglecting to elaborate on exactly how we mean to have peace. (I'm guessing Malcolm not Martin Luther.) And yes I have seen very interesting and provoking inter-republican politics and dramatic schisms within republic politics and interpretations of how to free the slaves, who we are etc.... All great stuff. Actually with out a doubt the best RP I have had has always been arguing with other Minmatar about Minmatar stuff.  But its just like, ...three of us. 

As poor as the state of the minmatar RP is I still can't see myself RPing anything other than Minmatar.  I guess it takes a special kind of stupid or stubborn to fly around in ships bonused for projectile optimal waiting for the strength to free the slaves or god to step in and at least remove the in-game item with a lore bit as caldari gets another thousand player live event and you know the best RPers you have ever RP'd with are chained up to some failed plot line in Amarrian space just waiting to be freed.

So you can ride your motorcycle to where the Naglfar's are secretly not secretly the best dread. and Projectiles can hard counter anything if flown right and the slaves are free and we have a million sweet tattoos and all our ships stop coming out as gallante ships and fear the tribes.

So we sit here, chained and waiting for the day our plot line advances.  Protecting our line in the sand and waiting for minmatar to be half as good as it could be.

I admit even in my short time I can empathise with that, I cannot imagine how aggravating it is for someone who has spent considerably more time invested in the story around a faction.

For what it is worth you have my thanks for keeping the flame lit and here's hoping that the story will advance - it will be better for all in EVE if it did, in my opinion.

[Tabor Murn]

I was pretty frustrated with a lot of the same things Ayallah. Taking a break helped a lot and now I'm kind of excited to play a Minmatar again. I'm definitely going a bit more Pro-Republic and (dare I say it?) Pro-Shakor than before. Hopefully we can get a few more people online and active. We still only have a few people in Minmatar OOC and IC channels like The Standing Place but you have to start somewhere. Amarr OOC/Imperial Congregation was pretty much the same 3-5 people for the first few months as well. Now Amarr is one of the more active RP communities.

[Havohej]

So you would say that you cannot be a Minmatar loyalist and articulate a position which seeks peaceful solutions to the issues of slavery and the Empire (to take one issue)? Surely as with any real life body politic the political field of the Republic and the Tribes is diverse with many competing views and positions. Enough that while IC a vehement anti-Amarr Minmatar would view the more conciliatory members of their society as traitors, OOC at least we can admit that they are both loyalists just with different political views on how to realise that loyalty?

No, I would not say that at all.  If anything the people who wrote and played militant characters have had to moderate themselves or just outright roll new characters just to be able to have anyone to RP with. In the last year and a half or so 'pro-peace minmatar' seemed to be coming into their own.  Unfortunately most intelligent Matari are neglecting to elaborate on exactly how we mean to have peace. (I'm guessing Malcolm not Martin Luther.) And yes I have seen very interesting and provoking inter-republican politics and dramatic schisms within republic politics and interpretations of how to free the slaves, who we are etc.... All great stuff. Actually with out a doubt the best RP I have had has always been arguing with other Minmatar about Minmatar stuff.  But its just like, ...three of us. 

As poor as the state of the minmatar RP is I still can't see myself RPing anything other than Minmatar.  I guess it takes a special kind of stupid or stubborn to fly around in ships bonused for projectile optimal waiting for the strength to free the slaves or god to step in and at least remove the in-game item with a lore bit as caldari gets another thousand player live event and you know the best RPers you have ever RP'd with are chained up to some failed plot line in Amarrian space just waiting to be freed.

So you can ride your motorcycle to where the Naglfar's are secretly not secretly the best dread. and Projectiles can hard counter anything if flown right and the slaves are free and we have a million sweet tattoos and all our ships stop coming out as gallante ships and fear the tribes.

So we sit here, chained and waiting for the day our plot line advances.  Protecting our line in the sand and waiting for minmatar to be half as good as it could be.

So much this.  So, so, so fucking much this.

Which is also part of why I'm so interested in Silver's new thing.

EDIT:  To elaborate a little bit, Havo was for a long time a self-proclaimed "loyalist to the Matari people" rather than the Republic or its government, because for a long time it was run by a very peace-minded Midular regime.  Then he was guardedly optimistic about Shakor taking power.  Then our plotline stopped, no more news items from CCP, nothing.  So how do I proceed as a player?  I was given the choice of A: assume the best and play as if Shakor is being a hardass and standing up to the Empire and shouting "Let my people go!" and "Give us free!" at the top of his blind lungs, or B: assume the worst and play as if Shakor rattled some sabers but really wasn't making any headway (the much more realistic possibility, all things considered - the Republic can't stand toe-to-toe with the Empire, so all that would be available would be posturing and bluster).

Of course, this (and Havo's history of being a mass-murderer of Minmatar slaves) put him at odds with characters like Ava and Ayallah, who, while not being conciliatory Midular-esque Minmatar characters themselves, were guaranteed to not be able to get behind Havo's bullshit.

So yeah, very few MinRP folks who weren't waving GalFed flags while I was active, and of those, I felt like the lore only gave me/my character options that would necessarily put me at odds with the few others who were around.  C'est la vie.  :ccp:  I hope to see Silver's thing take off to a decent enough start to justify a resub <3

[Nicoletta Mithra]

Honestly, it's about the players, the characters they play and a lot of PR, to establish that you can be non-violent and loyalist. Especially when they started FW, it was either you fly for the crusade or whatever or you can't be loyalist. One can only change such things with time and PR campaigning.

I don't think at all that it's got to do with viability of ships in PvP, whether there is a vibrant RP community for a faction. Nor do I think it is about the events which CCP is handing out.

Building an active RP community is mainly work by the players, that is the community-to-be. What is accepted within that community, again, is mainly depending on that community.

[Tabor Murn]

I agree Nicoletta. Frustration with ships and game mechanics meta should be a completely separate issue. I used to hear a lot about it from Ava and I never really understood the frustration. If anything I would think it gives the characters something to talk about besides slavery, faction warfare, or dessert.

[Nissui]

These posts seem to reinforce the impression I got that the PF bears some blame in the division of Minmatar camps. Good points from everyone with regard to things that can define a 'loyalist', which brings me back to Arkon's OP, that being the purpose of the faction OOC channels in giving players a place to nurture content in spite of, or perhaps in concert with, character differences.

*takes a place in the queue waiting for Silver*

[Ayallah]

The ships thing was illustrating the point.  Minmatar is race #4

[Vikarion]

...god to step in and at least remove the in-game item with a lore bit as caldari gets another thousand player live event...

Hey now, don't go calling the "Battle of Caldari Prime" a "Caldari event". Until public protest made them do otherwise, CCP was making sure that anyone with poor Fed standings wouldn't even be getting close to Caldari Prime in anything larger than a capsule. When it occurred, CCP simply spawned dreads until people repping the Leviathan were overwhelmed...and hey, even if they'd killed those, CCP TonyG - I mean, CCP Falcon - stated that the Fed would have just warped in all their Solteur-Class Titans (EvE Fiction thread). And when Caldari Dusties managed to narrowly win the battle on the ground anyway (somewhere between 53-57%, as I recall), CCP simply retconned it in EvE:Source as a total victory for the Gallente on the ground, with all Caldari forces captured. I'm not kidding even a little bit.

So, yes, Minmatar get ignored by CCP. But the only reason Caldari show up in events lately is to do something stupid (Heth and his goons), or get shit on, because they are the opponent of the Fed. Don't blame us. 

[Ayallah]

I will say this, what is happened with the Shakor storyline is 100% awesome how it is almost exactly the opposite of Heth.

A terrorist disappears, then overthrows the old government and becomes an amazing leader and gives the people the exact utopian ideal government they wanted while everyone thinks he is a dictator.  A charismatic man of the people becomes a dictator while everyone thinks he is reforming the government to the utopian ideal they wanted.  Then he becomes a terrorist and disappears!

And the new Republic is fucking awesome in nearly every way and so was what we got in source lore and PF wise.  I actually am super motivated to pursue the minmatar plot line in the future.  While we are still have very little information, now we have some very key points of information that Minmatar always lacked.  The Matari government is just as crazy and tribal and cool as it could have been and I think they overall did a really great job.

[Vikarion]

Oh, don't misunderstand, I do hope that they do some interesting things with the Minmatar. It's just that, after having had my most favored faction mutilated and kicked around for the last six-and-a-half years, I'm almost in favor of being ignored. Hell, we couldn't even get rid of Heth without it being the Gallente that essentially defeated him, even though virtually every Caldari capsuleer besides Kim was just frothing at the mouth to do it.

[Pieter Tuulinen]

Hey now, don't go calling the "Battle of Caldari Prime" a "Caldari event". Until public protest made them do otherwise, CCP was making sure that anyone with poor Fed standings wouldn't even be getting close to Caldari Prime in anything larger than a capsule. When it occurred, CCP simply spawned dreads until people repping the Leviathan were overwhelmed...and hey, even if they'd killed those, CCP TonyG - I mean, CCP Falcon - stated that the Fed would have just warped in all their Solteur-Class Titans (EvE Fiction thread). And when Caldari Dusties managed to narrowly win the battle on the ground anyway (somewhere between 53-57%, as I recall), CCP simply retconned it in EvE:Source as a total victory for the Gallente on the ground, with all Caldari forces captured. I'm not kidding even a little bit.

That approach was extremely counter-productive to the myth of Federal Navy supremacy, since the endlessly spawning waves of Dreadnoughts were the most attractive thing on the field for the massed capsuleers to attack, once they'd gotten onto the Shiigeru killmail.

And kill they did. There were capsuleers shredding Moros until the engagement timers timed out. This despite the usual CCP methodology of warping to zero with Blaster fit Moros and totally throwing the OPFOR under the bus - all the while pretending it was all to play for.

[ValentinaDLM]

I wouldn't discount the ship thing at all, lots of us have a primary focus on PVP, in fact I would call myself a pvper first and an RPer second, and it does detract significantly from your expierence if you believe the ships from "your side" aren't something worth using.

I am not saying it is what is killing Minnie RP after all I recently made the switch to using almost exclusively Minmatar ships myself recently and my character first and foremost is a Nation loyalist (though this switch was due to IC reasons).

I personally feel that for my preferred role (anti-kite) Minmatar ships are probably the best in the game; the perception however, is that they are an outdated 2009 meta that doesn't work in the garmur/Ishtar meta of 2015. I think if the perception was changed then this would become much less of an issue.

Tl;dr: Minmatar technology is the best in the cluster of you only believe it is, so you shouldn't let that hurt your RP.

[Silas Vitalia]

I had forgotten how much of a 'fuck you' to the playerbase the Caldari Prime event was, what with the predetermined victors.