Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Arkon Sarain on 08 Mar 2015, 18:42
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So recent chats have got me wondering about what you can do as a player of a character loyal to a particular faction/ideology to encourage other players to take up the other side?
For example Arkon is an Amarr loyalist but that doesn't mean I (the player) want his RP and the RP of the Amarr to continue without conflict or failure. So I would love to see more Blood Raider RP (particularly of a nuanced kind), more Minmatar RP, etc. Because the conflicts, the diversity of reactions within factions from moderate to extreme, and all that will only enhance my own enjoyment of the RP.
There is nothing fun (at least to me) about writing in a world where I get to direct everything exactly as I see fit.
But the problem is how do I encourage other players to take up the other side of things? Or should I even be doing that do you think? It is just something I have been puzzling over as to whether it is feasible, good, or what really, and would love to hear other's thoughts. :)
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I've taken the easy way out on this one (turns out, when you are a Sansha loyalist it isn't hard to find opposition), but from my experience engaging with people, and also letting people know (even getting in touch OOC!) that you would be happy to have an enemy or three. I used to have some really great people on the other side, and it definitely enhanced how much fun I had.
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Do the things your enemy faction dislikes, in a semi public, and more importantly, challengeable way to courage interaction. Don't have an outcome predetermined, but act to 'set the stage' for things to develop.
If you are a pvper, wardec, challenge, do mean things in their backyard
If you are an event pvper, come up with events or scenarios they can effect
If you are a forum pvper, try to be someone they love to hate
Have fun!
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All the things said above, in conjonction with RP storyarcs like I-RED. Thinking myself to organize one at some point, will also have to contact OOCly some RP groups or corps for that purpose....
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Cheers for the responses :D I will definitely keep an eye out for what I can do.
But to extend the question a bit what can the whole community on one side do to help encourage the other side of things? :)
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...what can the whole community on one side do to help encourage the other side of things?
A good deal of this will hinge upon how much you want to derive your RP from in-game/IC resources.
This community is generally supportive of new folks and there is no shortage of comments/threads voicing encouragement for players of underrepresented factions. "Good to see more Thukker/Jin-Mei/Khanid" comments and threads, for examples. I think it can be a little rough for less established players of these small factions to get a foothold, outside of finding the odd comrade onto which to latch. It can be especially difficult relying solely on the IGS or TQ client. Often these characters struggle and frequently fade back into the ether.
On the other hand, there are established and active players who may be physically isolated in the cluster, or slightly insular as a matter of maintaining a group narrative. Rather than trying to grow new representation for antagonistic (or at least nonaligned) factions, engaging these enclaves can probably yield quicker results.
Which kind of springs back to the original point. I'd reckon that most of these groups would be easier to reach in-game, and perhaps more amenable to an organic development of interaction. At the same time, laying out a coordinated effort to engage participants en masse might be easier using a board like this one, and seems to have paid off in the past.
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I'd love for someone to promote the minnies, damn sure didnt work when I did it.
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Thanks for the awesome responses they have been very helpful, I have managed to lend a hand to someone trying to grow the GalRP scene OOCly in-game because of the advice - hopefully I can continue to do that and help out other scenes.
I'd love for someone to promote the minnies, damn sure didnt work when I did it.
It was actually Minmatar RP that made me think about this particular topic. As I play an Amarrian character and yet in around 3 months of being active I haven't IC or OOC engaged with a Minmatar character/player. I have interacted with characters of Minmatar ethnicity in other factions of course, but not once have I encountered a Minmatar who is active within their own circles so to speak.
At first I put this down to the fact that I was Amarrian and so unlikely to cross paths with them. But after awhile this didn't gel as I was having no trouble meeting all manner of other character archetypes that probably are far more in the minority than a Minmatar character... or at least I would have thought.
Hopefully I can find a way to help the Minnie RP scene too. :)
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I'd love for someone to promote the minnies, damn sure didnt work when I did it.
I would actually like this very much myself, Minmatar RP seems kinda dead to me and it would make things much more exciting and vibrant to have more of it.....and Val is finally kinda okay with Minmatar culture but she is too busy trying to kill Ushra Kahn and fantasize about the Master's abs to really say anything meaningful about it IC.
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Yeah the Republic as a player faction and the Minmatar FW scene seem to have had very strong RP core in the past, but were mostly quiet by late 2014. Miz + Havo had a storyline I think to bring an offensive into Amarr territory (possibly more pirate than Republic loyalist, not sure), and Resprox also had a remobilzation campaign IIRC.
I could be totally wrong here, but for the years preceding my time in EVE, the issue of slavery was a huge motivator for conflict between Amarr and Minmatar RPers, so much so that that core struggle sort of burned itself out over time. Slavery posts seemingly became tiresome since the same arguments were rehashed, but there was a kind of void left in factors to motivate Minmatar RP. Some potential conflicts, like tribal tradition vs Republic (Gallente) influence were internal, providing no real reason to shoot Amarr. So the struggle sort of defaulted to FW, and when I unsubbed I think there was still RP there, maybe from Gradient?
Amarr has always seemed to me to be the strongest faction in terms of RP, but my window in the RP community was short. People frequently lamented the torpor of Gallente RP, which seems mostly political with some FW as well. Caldari RP has been pretty well-defined and never seems to have gone inactive, but remains perhaps mainly 'internal'.
I'm out of the loop obviously, so I'm not sure how you could utilize your Amarrness to boost Minmatar RP, but I have every confidence that it is possible.
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What I had in mind was similar to what I am presently doing with GalRP. Aedre is running a channel called Federation OOC which is an attempt at creating a place for a community to coalesce for anyone interested in GalRP, similar to what has been tried (successfully as far as I can see) with the Amarr community and Imperial OOC. The assistance I offer is mostly OOC there, I chat to people, make them feel welcome, be social, and any GalRPer I know or see I promote the channel to. Though naturally this has lead to some exciting IC interactions, which is one of the aims of the channel generally.
I feel the OOC approach is easier as I, as a player, am not restricted like my character is. Arkon wouldn't talk to terrorists, heretics, etc. etc. but Arkon the player? I will chat to anyone :D
Certainly I would be more than willing to try and help in a similar manner a Minmatar or Republic OOC channel :) As when any aspect of RP grows it improves the community as a whole, it contributes to the sense of a living, breathing, and real universe. In my opinion anyways :)
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;)
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I think one of the most important simple things is being knowledgeable about the lore of the "opposing side."
For example, I didn't really participate on the IGS much until the "Uprising" storyline aka the prelude to the Battle of Caldari Prime. I'd thought about my character and her mixed Caldari / Gallente heritage often in the past, and as a result I'd probably read more Caldari related lore than Gallente. So, when that topic started blowing up in RP, I started posting on the Gallente "side" of things... but almost all of what I had to say tried to evoke Caldari themes.
I at least tried to approach it differently than "Grr Your Inferior Culture" and present something that would give the Caldari players I was interacting opportunities to explore the bits of Caldari lore I found interesting or underrepresented.
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I think the problem is that people read the description of Minmatar, go "Oh cool! Lone wolf biker rebels!" and roll with that, and many become pirates, work for other factions, and other such "anti republic" angles. There arent a whole slew of "Anti Empire" Amarrians, and there certainly are a teeny minority of ones who preach abandonment of everything Amarrian, yet, that is precisely what the plurality of Minmatar ethnicity characters tend to do. If everyone in minny society was a "lone wolf", it wouldnt be a tribal society; it would be, well, exactly what RP depicts. I did midsummer events for the past 2 years, big Minny-centric parties. The first one had an OK turnout of maybe 20 people, I think 2 or 3 of whom were Minmatar. The second? I think 8 or so people came, and zero of them were from my own corp... and I think I had one other matari attendee this year, and one or two the first year. How many people show up when PIE throws a party? Oh, keep in mind, those two events are the only remotely Minny-oriented RP I had, save the odd short conversation in Summit with a person curious about religion.
I'd love to play eve again. I miss it. But I know all it would do is frustrate me, as everything about Minny atm just sucks. And frankly, I lack the resolve to try and "fix" it anymore. I've been trying for a long, long time. Suerte to whoever decides to pick up that torch.
A tribal society (and hence, RP) tends to only work if, you know, more than 1 person is involved. It grew lonely.
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Rinai I agree entirely with reading more than just your "character's" lore, it also has the positive effect of making your own character's positions more nuanced and realistic I think. :D
Aww Ava I am really sad to hear that :( Minmatar culture fascinates me, I think I agree that the description at the start paints them in a poor light - not to mention I think when one hears "tribal" we have a tendency to confuse it with primitive, which is certainly not accurate. Indeed I have always felt socially the Minmatar mirror the complex socio-economic structures, and government, of the Iroquois.
Also I was going through the wiki and I noticed that the Minmatar Republic is the only empire out of the four main ones to have no 'Demographics of X' article. Which really disappointed me as it is a major oversight, I assume that there is more detail given in Source but I don't have it.
For the record Ava if you do want to dip your toe back in EVE I would be delighted to help however I can OOCly, and even ICly Arkon is a Kor-Azorite so you know he can talk to foreigners and heathens without frothing at the mouth hehe XD
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I think the problem is that people read the description of Minmatar, go "Oh cool! Lone wolf biker rebels!" and roll with that, and many become pirates, work for other factions, and other such "anti republic" angles. There arent a whole slew of "Anti Empire" Amarrians, and there certainly are a teeny minority of ones who preach abandonment of everything Amarrian, yet, that is precisely what the plurality of Minmatar ethnicity characters tend to do. If everyone in minny society was a "lone wolf", it wouldnt be a tribal society; it would be, well, exactly what RP depicts. I did midsummer events for the past 2 years, big Minny-centric parties. The first one had an OK turnout of maybe 20 people, I think 2 or 3 of whom were Minmatar. The second? I think 8 or so people came, and zero of them were from my own corp... and I think I had one other matari attendee this year, and one or two the first year. How many people show up when PIE throws a party? Oh, keep in mind, those two events are the only remotely Minny-oriented RP I had, save the odd short conversation in Summit with a person curious about religion.
I'd love to play eve again. I miss it. But I know all it would do is frustrate me, as everything about Minny atm just sucks. And frankly, I lack the resolve to try and "fix" it anymore. I've been trying for a long, long time. Suerte to whoever decides to pick up that torch.
A tribal society (and hence, RP) tends to only work if, you know, more than 1 person is involved. It grew lonely.
Say "fuck it" and join PYRE :D
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I think the problem is that people read the description of Minmatar, go "Oh cool! Lone wolf biker rebels!" and roll with that, and many become pirates, work for other factions, and other such "anti republic" angles. There arent a whole slew of "Anti Empire" Amarrians, and there certainly are a teeny minority of ones who preach abandonment of everything Amarrian, yet, that is precisely what the plurality of Minmatar ethnicity characters tend to do. If everyone in minny society was a "lone wolf", it wouldnt be a tribal society; it would be, well, exactly what RP depicts. I did midsummer events for the past 2 years, big Minny-centric parties. The first one had an OK turnout of maybe 20 people, I think 2 or 3 of whom were Minmatar. The second? I think 8 or so people came, and zero of them were from my own corp... and I think I had one other matari attendee this year, and one or two the first year. How many people show up when PIE throws a party? Oh, keep in mind, those two events are the only remotely Minny-oriented RP I had, save the odd short conversation in Summit with a person curious about religion.
I'd love to play eve again. I miss it. But I know all it would do is frustrate me, as everything about Minny atm just sucks. And frankly, I lack the resolve to try and "fix" it anymore. I've been trying for a long, long time. Suerte to whoever decides to pick up that torch.
A tribal society (and hence, RP) tends to only work if, you know, more than 1 person is involved. It grew lonely.
It's also unfortunately inherent to the minmatar faction, where the Republic is not the best... attracting thing in the faction, as well as a PF that always put the emphasis on the outsider groups in the minmatar society (thukkers, pirates, lone wolfs, etc).
For the Empire, it's rather like the Caldari : if you are not part of the monolithic bloc, which is not monolithic but from the outside it's black and white, either you are a faithful or a caldari citizen, or either you are not.
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I tried this once when I was a Fed RP'er and saw how little Caldari Patriot RP there was. I went hey, why not try out some Kaalakiota aligned patriot angle and see what happens. All that I learned was that in general it's wasted effort as roleplayers will default to the lowest common denominator stereotypes and most puerile derivative trash when they're not busy creating alternative content such as OOC/IC dramas on par with some kind of high-school grade Twilight fanfic.
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I tried this once when I was a Fed RP'er and saw how little Caldari Patriot RP there was. I went hey, why not try out some Kaalakiota aligned patriot angle and see what happens. All that I learned was that in general it's wasted effort as roleplayers will default to the lowest common denominator stereotypes and most puerile derivative trash when they're not busy creating alternative content such as OOC/IC dramas on par with some kind of high-school grade Twilight fanfic.
B+ for degree of bitter. Your supposed failure is qualified in a few interesting ways, though.
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I tried this once when I was a Fed RP'er and saw how little Caldari Patriot RP there was. I went hey, why not try out some Kaalakiota aligned patriot angle and see what happens. All that I learned was that in general it's wasted effort as roleplayers will default to the lowest common denominator stereotypes and most puerile derivative trash when they're not busy creating alternative content such as OOC/IC dramas on par with some kind of high-school grade Twilight fanfic.
Ya, perception of drama / observing lowest common denominator tendencies has definitely been part of why I've stayed a bit on the outskirts of RP stuff.
It is also frustrating to see the opposite of what this topic is promoting; ie having *every* roleplay topic get dragged onto the same subject over and over. Shortly before I found out that this OOC forum was a thing was the whole Gallente Presidential election thing, which piqued my interest in checking the IGS after a long absence. First thing I saw was basically every topic being shat up with nothing but arguments about Tibus Heth. Not even token efforts being made to link things back to the Gallente candidates under discussion, just all Heth all the time.
Honestly, I don't even think it was a conscious effort by some of those involved... but people just get caught up reflexively in "their" faction's RP sometimes (all the time?) and have a hard time talking about anything else.
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I tried this once when I was a Fed RP'er and saw how little Caldari Patriot RP there was. I went hey, why not try out some Kaalakiota aligned patriot angle and see what happens. All that I learned was that in general it's wasted effort as roleplayers will default to the lowest common denominator stereotypes and most puerile derivative trash when they're not busy creating alternative content such as OOC/IC dramas on par with some kind of high-school grade Twilight fanfic.
B+ for degree of bitter. Your supposed failure is qualified in a few interesting ways, though.
Less bitter and more acceptance of a never-ending cycle. ;)
Good faith initiatives like this are fine and all it's just that my experience has taught me to curb my enthusiasm as soon as it involves other roleplayers.
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It's also unfortunately inherent to the minmatar faction, where the Republic is not the best... attracting thing in the faction, as well as a PF that always put the emphasis on the outsider groups in the minmatar society (thukkers, pirates, lone wolfs, etc).
For the Empire, it's rather like the Caldari : if you are not part of the monolithic bloc, which is not monolithic but from the outside it's black and white, either you are a faithful or a caldari citizen, or either you are not.
Can't say I disagree, my impression is that PF highlighting tribal unity is pretty scarce. Your other point about the fundamental similarities between the 'allies' is interesting, too. It's much easier to go along with other loyalists when there is a huge disincentive not to do so, and that is not limited to RP. However, RP being a thing which seeks itself out, players might find their roles limited within the faction if they are vocal proponents of dissent. So even in an OOC capacity there is a mechanism for unity on the 'monolithic' side, while the Republic and Federation remain fractious.
It is also frustrating to see the opposite of what this topic is promoting; ie having *every* roleplay topic get dragged onto the same subject over and over. Shortly before I found out that this OOC forum was a thing was the whole Gallente Presidential election thing, which piqued my interest in checking the IGS after a long absence. First thing I saw was basically every topic being shat up with nothing but arguments about Tibus Heth. Not even token efforts being made to link things back to the Gallente candidates under discussion, just all Heth all the time.
Honestly, I don't even think it was a conscious effort by some of those involved... but people just get caught up reflexively in "their" faction's RP sometimes (all the time?) and have a hard time talking about anything else.
On the latter point, I think it's somewhat natural to respond through the prism of character perceptions which are very much self-centered. Those character's 'experiences' are undoubtedly more narrow and/or shallow than our own, so it stands to reason that their perceptions and reactions follow suit. That's not to say that players are making a conscious effort to be narrow and shallow in character portrayal, it could just be chalked up to the insufficiency of the medium. Or maybe it is a conscious effort because tears.
To the former point, I wonder if it isn't a combination of 'deficit of content' mixed with 'mutability of concept'. For instance, I'm playing Nis and I see someone make a Republic post on IGS, perhaps about the Fed inquest into Midular's death, for example. Nis has no relationship to that character, and has no inherent interest or involvement in the topic. However, I haven't had good RP in a month, so I decide to post anyway just for a tiny ego ping. If Nis is so removed from the topic, with only a tangential connection by virtue of Minmatarness, where can I leverage her into play? Speaking personally, it depends on how much I am willing to relax what is in her character for the sake of some dopamine.
So i wonder if it is not the same for others. The kids are calling you to play foosball when you want to play futbol.
That's enough rambling, though.
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As far as I know the only people who are still serious about Republican RP are Gradient. I just have some IC issues with them about the breakup of EM, but apart from that they're fine people.
I did start up a family corporation that was intended to be an attractor for various Matari characters with a yen to serve & fight for the Republic, but I was never certain how to go about promoting it. In any event I'll have to re-sub the account the CEO is on if I want to use it again.
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Promoting the opposing side, is a lot of hard work, with results that tend towards being disappointing for the effort expended.
you end up putting in a whole lot of effort, and then a few months in, you find out that you are the only people on that side, and people other than yourselves who are interested in that side are few and far between, and do not seem to stick around.
so you step back, because paranoia and lack of self-confidence makes you question whether you are part of the problem or part of the solution. Then you observe that your step back has made the situation worse.
So you get back in, because you have the idea that other people are reliant on you to be the thing that their characters are against. So you rationalise it and think "someone has to be the bad dudes, someone has to play the best supporting actor, and there's no one else willing to do so".
Then you end up with a head full of OOC knowledge, that only brings you pain, because you know that the RP enemies need you, to give themselves definition. Its hard to be a vampire hunter when there are no vampires.
Then you think about whether you should jack it all in, because people start queueing up to moan at you OOC because your characters aren't the cardboard stereotypes they need for their self-fanfiction, and you question why you even bother RPing with people instead of at them, because it's not like you're getting paid to do this.
Then people use their information that X and Y characters seem to operate on similar timezones, or use similar IPs, and use this to be snippy and condescending to X because Y is the 'enemy' and it sours the enjoyment that X gets, and disincentivises both X and Y to rp with instead of at people.
So, promoting the opposing side, is a lot of work, for questionable gain.
If you're going to do it at all, then the one doing the promotion, probably should stay away from TS, Ventrilo, forums and other things, because the mod tools that those things have, will make your life needlessly complicated, if/when someone lets it slip that X is Y.
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Then you think about whether you should jack it all in, because people start queueing up to moan at you OOC because your characters aren't the cardboard stereotypes they need for their self-fanfiction, and you question why you even bother RPing with people instead of at them, because it's not like you're getting paid to do this.
I love you. <3
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Some awesome replies :D
Re: Arnulf if you do resub that account let me know I would be happy to help however I can OOCly and ICly :)
Re: Synthia, thank you for a very considered reply :D But as I mentioned in one line of a post a little while back ( Not even I can find it XD ) is that by promoting the other side I don't necessarily mean creating a character loyal to that faction.
But more what you can do as a player, not your character, to aid in creating a richer and more engaging RP environment. For example I am helping out the Federation OOC channel to become a place for GalRPers to coalesce and feel a sense of common community, and to find IC interactions, and I do this on Arkon quite easily. It's simply a matter of whenever I see a lonesome stray Gallente of saying hello OOCly and poking them towards the channel.
Of course I also do what I can ICly, I am lucky in that Arkon as a character is civil and generally quite sociable, so if I see some people lurking in the FedOOC channel that are new or whom I haven't seen RPing I always offer to go to a neutral venue and engage in some general chit-chat. It ain't the most astounding of RP for them I am sure, but at least they are getting some more interactions, and hopefully that will help them in some small way.
I am sure that one could probably do more by creating another character belonging to the opposing faction, but then I think you will run into the very problems and issues you mention in your post. :)
Thanks again for all the thoughts that are being shared here, they are assuredly helpful and I think also highlight a common concern among all in the community - which is nice to be reminded of OOCly seeing as IC can sometimes be the main prism through which we see EVE at times. :)
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As far as I know the only people who are still serious about Republican RP are Gradient. I just have some IC issues with them about the breakup of EM, but apart from that they're fine people.
I did start up a family corporation that was intended to be an attractor for various Matari characters with a yen to serve & fight for the Republic, but I was never certain how to go about promoting it. In any event I'll have to re-sub the account the CEO is on if I want to use it again.
Me and Gradient had quite the falling out, sadly, - some of them are fine people as you say - but even there, most characters are non-Matari anymore. It always annoyed Kyllsa, ICly =P
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Me and Gradient had quite the falling out, sadly, - some of them are fine people as you say - but even there, most characters are non-Matari anymore. It always annoyed Kyllsa, ICly =P
Many years ago, before alliances were formalised in game Gradient were part of discussions to join with other Matari corps in creating an alliance (when formal alliances came in most of the corps went onto form Ushra Khan). Gradient refused mostly because other corps had members from other races and they wanted a "pure matari" alliance. Strange how things change over time.
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The funny thing is, that IC val has been really trying to understand Matari culture, and like all of the advances made toward that in the RP channels usually come out with people having negative things to say about the republic (which val doesn't care about, she is interested in culture not the government).
So I put my money where my mouth is :P I sold almost every nonminmatar ship, and aside from support ships and pirate faction ships, I suppose I only fly minmatar now. Val is trying IC to understand Minmatar culture via combat and that probably isn't going to teach her anything meaningful, but OOC I am quite enjoying the restriction. Got over 50 kills in a rifter last week, both in fleets and solo, and the Rupture, Stabber, Muininn, Vagabond, and Huginn are all really fun to fly and I have been using them. I am going to keep this ship restriction around indefinitely because I am having a blast.
So Ava, if you do return to the game, we totally need to roam in Rifters, Wolves, and Jags and kill everything with the two of us :P
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The funny thing is, that IC val has been really trying to understand Matari culture, and like all of the advances made toward that in the RP channels usually come out with people having negative things to say about the republic (which val doesn't care about, she is interested in culture not the government).
So I put my money where my mouth is :P I sold almost every nonminmatar ship, and aside from support ships and pirate faction ships, I suppose I only fly minmatar now. Val is trying IC to understand Minmatar culture via combat and that probably isn't going to teach her anything meaningful, but OOC I am quite enjoying the restriction. Got over 50 kills in a rifter last week, both in fleets and solo, and the Rupture, Stabber, Muininn, Vagabond, and Huginn are all really fun to fly and I have been using them. I am going to keep this ship restriction around indefinitely because I am having a blast.
So Ava, if you do return to the game, we totally need to roam in Rifters, Wolves, and Jags and kill everything with the two of us :P
But wut about Breacher, Bellicose, Rapier, Missile ScyFI, Cyclone and Phoon?
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All except the rapier have since been purchased and are being readied for use, I just don't see me using it with the hugginn being immune to dscan. I have been using the rifter, thrasher and talwar the most mainly because I have been out solo or with really small gangs mostly this week.
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With the upcoming FW alliances going kaput most of you will likely have new people to shoot and new inspiration for interaction.
I expect some very fun Matari shooting Gallente and Amarr shooting Caldari.
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I think more the latter than the former. Not very many Matari around to shoot these days.
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With the upcoming FW alliances going kaput most of you will likely have new people to shoot and new inspiration for interaction.
I expect some very fun Matari shooting Gallente and Amarr shooting Caldari.
Wait, what's this?
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CCP is breaking up the FW alliances. It'll be a full four-way.
Won't be happening for several months, but it is planned to happen 'sometime this year' and that people should be on the lookout for 'upheaval in the State and Empire' according to CCP Affinity, Delegate Zero and Falcon at the Lore Roundtable at this year's Fanfest.
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CCP is breaking up the FW alliances. It'll be a full four-way.
Won't be happening for several months, but it is planned to happen 'sometime this year' and that people should be on the lookout for 'upheaval in the State and Empire' according to CCP Affinity, Delegate Zero and Falcon at the Lore Roundtable at this year's Fanfest.
This makes me pretty happy.
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CCP is breaking up the FW alliances. It'll be a full four-way.
Won't be happening for several months, but it is planned to happen 'sometime this year' and that people should be on the lookout for 'upheaval in the State and Empire' according to CCP Affinity, Delegate Zero and Falcon at the Lore Roundtable at this year's Fanfest.
Well, judging by past efforts, I suppose I should expect another humiliation and mangling of my favorite faction. You have to wonder when CCP will get tired of this.
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Even a broken lore clock is right twice every five years or so!
Interested in how they spin it; there's plenty of ways to break up the status quo fw plot without going full derp.
I would certainly prefer less deus ex machina of course. Also maybe stagger the breakup instead of one giant 'event' changing everything with one patch.
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Lore wise it migth change some things... Gameplay wise I don't think so. The 2 areas are way to far away from each other for it to really matter.
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/me popcorns
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except, with that whole thing with the Vast Sums of Gold that the Empress gave to the State, the Empire already owns all the State's infrastructure, which the State uses on a leaseback basis. Or something.
:psyccp:
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Lore wise it migth change some things... Gameplay wise I don't think so. The 2 areas are way to far away from each other for it to really matter.
So, I asked / said something similar to CCP Affinity at fanfest. Apparently they have more planned than simply removing the "allies" tab and throwing out random lore reasons. They are planning on implementing something they were describing as "DMZs" and didn't provide much detail on, because they weren't sure what they were going to do.
It sounded like they are actually going to change up the whole map when it comes to LowSec, and all four factions are going to be thrown together into whatever new area they designate. Again, frustratingly few details.
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Hrmm..
Maybe turn the currently non-FW lowsec into "FFA FW" space, and keep the current system for the current regions? Probably not going to happen, but it would be amusing to see the Minmatar invading Uemon, or the Amarr in Solitude :D
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Even a broken lore clock is right twice every five years or so!
Interested in how they spin it; there's plenty of ways to break up the status quo fw plot without going full derp.
I would certainly prefer less deus ex machina of course. Also maybe stagger the breakup instead of one giant 'event' changing everything with one patch.
Khanid joins Caldari? :yar:
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Even a broken lore clock is right twice every five years or so!
Interested in how they spin it; there's plenty of ways to break up the status quo fw plot without going full derp.
I would certainly prefer less deus ex machina of course. Also maybe stagger the breakup instead of one giant 'event' changing everything with one patch.
Khanid joins Caldari? :yar:
I long for the days when the Khanid were not bosom-buddies with the Empire. Khanid II still needs to dropkick Jamyl out of an airlock, thank you very much.
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Yonis still needs to dropkick Jamyl and Khanid II out of an airlock, thank you very much.
Fixed that for you.
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Yonis still needs to dropkick Jamyl and Khanid II out of an airlock, thank you very much.
Fixed that for you.
Wouldn't that have been the best player IC event ever? A new tournament of champions for the empty seat that Jamyl stole?
Amarr civil war is a thing that needs to happen so very badly it hurts.
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Amarr civil war is a thing that needs to happen so very badly it hurts.
Yes
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except, with that whole thing with the Vast Sums of Gold that the Empress gave to the State, the Empire already owns all the State's infrastructure, which the State uses on a leaseback basis. Or something.
I wouldn't put it past Falcon to retcon that in, but the original news article just said that it was an investment into the megas. It certainly isn't considered anything more than that in EvE: Source, unless I REALLY missed something.
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except, with that whole thing with the Vast Sums of Gold that the Empress gave to the State, the Empire already owns all the State's infrastructure, which the State uses on a leaseback basis. Or something.
I wouldn't put it past Falcon to retcon that in, but the original news article just said that it was an investment into the megas. It certainly isn't considered anything more than that in EvE: Source, unless I REALLY missed something.
If I recall it was described as a substantial loan and not an investment? Just because it could be a good source of conflict down the line...
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It's a loan as described in Eterne's Jamyl chronicle.
But what nation doesn't have national debt?
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Also, the loan is mostly on Tash-Murkon level iirc, not on the imperial throne itself, which can lead to... interesting shenanigans.
Also, yes for internal civil wars everywhere. And Khanid II + Jamyl need to go down in flames together. :P
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And Articio will rise \o/
I mean what? I am a loyal servant of the Empire >.>
But this actually an interesting point, to turn back to the original discussion, do you think a removal/reversal/renovation of the FW alliances and a promotion of internal conflict (even if not outright violence) would help or hinder us as players (and as characters) in promoting involvement in all sides? :)
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As far as I know, every time new RP matter is summoned, RPers are summoned and RP activity starts up again. It's not only true for the main storyline like sleepers/drifters.
As far as I know, every time conflict is involved, it appears to be a RP multiplier of such events.
So yes, in a nutshell. As long as they do not pull up an Aurora, rig up the results no matter what the players do (as CCP has always done) and go the suicidal route again with the RP community.
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Then you think about whether you should jack it all in, because people start queueing up to moan at you OOC because your characters aren't the cardboard stereotypes they need for their self-fanfiction, and you question why you even bother RPing with people instead of at them, because it's not like you're getting paid to do this.
I love you. <3
CTCS aren't the Sani Sabik that the RP community needs, they're the Sani Sabik the RP community deserves.
Or something.
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There's always been - from my observations, at least - a distinct lack of actually Matari patriots in a lot of the RP venues that aren't just hating the Amarr because they think it's hip and cool. What I mean to say, since I'm pretty sure I'm nowhere near as clear as I think I am, is that most Minmatar (and the 'super duper liberal Amarr') types like to polarize themselves without purpose or meaning, which can be fun to interact with, but it's junk for any type of storytelling. Backstory is the biggest part of characters because it dictates how they do anything from scalping some dude to picking daisies for someone.
And then I go log in and see people going "FEDERATION PLS DISAPPEAR LOL" and "SLAVES R BAD.......NO SLAVES PLS," and when someone asks why, all they're met with are ad hominems. I would metaphorically kill to see some good, grey-area tensions between the Amarr and Minmatar communities that isn't just a he-said-she-said thing. I'd say the same about GalCal, but the Federation RP community is rather thin and dynamic and seems to enjoy complimenting other things than being a single entity.
tl;dr vote Charles for CSM
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Gradient (and to some extent EM) of about 3-5 years ago had exactly what you're describing. There was some excellent moderate/inter-tribal RP going on there. Unfortunately a lot of the older and more experienced Minmatar RPers stopped playing and Min RP has always suffered under the "hurr durr Slavers" problem. Combined, these factors haven't left much else.
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There's always been - from my observations, at least - a distinct lack of actually Matari patriots in a lot of the RP venues that aren't just hating the Amarr because they think it's hip and cool. What I mean to say, since I'm pretty sure I'm nowhere near as clear as I think I am, is that most Minmatar (and the 'super duper liberal Amarr') types like to polarize themselves without purpose or meaning, which can be fun to interact with, but it's junk for any type of storytelling. Backstory is the biggest part of characters because it dictates how they do anything from scalping some dude to picking daisies for someone.
And then I go log in and see people going "FEDERATION PLS DISAPPEAR LOL" and "SLAVES R BAD.......NO SLAVES PLS," and when someone asks why, all they're met with are ad hominems. I would metaphorically kill to see some good, grey-area tensions between the Amarr and Minmatar communities that isn't just a he-said-she-said thing. I'd say the same about GalCal, but the Federation RP community is rather thin and dynamic and seems to enjoy complimenting other things than being a single entity.
tl;dr vote Charles for CSM
I haven't really encountered any Minmatar characters (who primarily define themselves by that fact) to know whether the majority of Minmatar characters are as you say - grrr slavers etc. :P Which I think is tragic, I can't even confirm that I have even seen a Minmatar stereotype when I play an Amarr loyalist!
But I do agree with the general sentiment in the post, in my opinion nuance is everything in a character - it makes them feel human.
A rather blunt question, please forgive me for it, but does anyone actually know of any Minmatar RPers active in EVE presently? Because really 4 months in and not having run into one is a bit :s for me.
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I don't know if this is still the case, but when I was involved in Minmatar RP there weren't a ton of Minmatar RPers who participated in places like the Summit etc. A lot of intracorp/intraalliance RP was more common. I know a lot has changed over the last couple years too, though.
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I don't know if this is still the case, but when I was involved in Minmatar RP there weren't a ton of Minmatar RPers who participated in places like the Summit etc. A lot of intracorp/intraalliance RP was more common. I know a lot has changed over the last couple years too, though.
Can confirm. When the RP generally goes on, it's in-corp or behind closed doors. Maybe there needs to be someone to bridge that gap for hella arr-p, shrug
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Possibly you could go corp-by-corp and most of them *do* have public IC channels of some kind. I'm not sure who all is active these days though. It's crazy, Minmatar were for a long time pretty much the largest RP group.
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A rather blunt question, please forgive me for it, but does anyone actually know of any Minmatar RPers active in EVE presently? Because really 4 months in and not having run into one is a bit :s for me.
Ava ?
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I don't know if this is still the case, but when I was involved in Minmatar RP there weren't a ton of Minmatar RPers who participated in places like the Summit etc. A lot of intracorp/intraalliance RP was more common. I know a lot has changed over the last couple years too, though.
This is interesting to hear, and relates a bit to another thread on this forum about raising the public profile of RP in EVE (or something to that effect, will link when near a computer).
If this is so, and I certainly can believe it, beyond what has been mentioned before more generally about engaging the "other side," is there anything specifically one could do as a player or as a character to encourage more public RP from such groups?
Possibly you could go corp-by-corp and most of them *do* have public IC channels of some kind. I'm not sure who all is active these days though. It's crazy, Minmatar were for a long time pretty much the largest RP group.
The problem for me, as a newer player and character, is I have no idea who such corps may be :P Beyond Gradient, who I have tried to talk to OOCly but sadly they mustn't have seen me in the channel as they haven't responded - I would mail but that always seems so... Impersonal? Probably just me thinking that actually. But yes back to the topic at hand, beyond Gradient I do not know of any Minmatar RP groups. And more broadly speaking beyond the Amarr bloc I know very few RP corporations/alliances.
Is there a resource to consult or a list of such entities that are active I could find? :)
A rather blunt question, please forgive me for it, but does anyone actually know of any Minmatar RPers active in EVE presently? Because really 4 months in and not having run into one is a bit :s for me.
Ava ?
If it is the Ava who has posted in this thread they are not presently in the game I believe :(
Apologies for any mistakes and the clumsiness of this post, I am on my phone, edits for style and corrections will come when I find a computer. :)
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I'm still active. But my corporation & alliance aren't very RP friendly right now. Well, more the alliance really.
I'd considered doing a stint in an U'K corporation, if only for the potential comedy gold of being a Minmatar who thinks that Karishal Muritor's death was sad, but justifiable given his oathbreaking and theft of Fleet property. I'm not sure how active they are in RP terms at the moment though.
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If it is the Ava who has posted in this thread they are not presently in the game I believe :(
I saw her a few days ago.
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Ava being in - game and Ava being an active Minmatar rp'er are not the same thing.
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She was pretty active about Minmatar loyalism last time on the summit.
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The point is, Lyn, that just because Ava has logged in and spoken in the summit one time does not mean she is back as a full time active Minmatar roleplayer.
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Well then i'm not a full time active RPer either, and irrelevant, and many are not either...
At least she does actually RP minmatar stuff ingame. Even if not everyday...
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That's the whole point Lyn. There is no one who is in-game every day doing stuff for the Minmatar. Ava logged in for the first time in about 3 months. There are no active Minmatar RPers who are visibly doing stuff, if not every day then at least every week, that people can get involved in.
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It's not proper to the Minmatar. Only the Amarr these days are thriving everyday, as you say... Not even everyday no. But often enough to qualify to your standards of activity.
If you are looking for everyday RP, then let's go 10 years back in time and you will have your every faction and sub faction everyday RP... But if you are trying to dismiss the few people left that may not have the time to bear the mantle of a whole faction by themselves on an everyday basis, I'm not even sure what the whole point is, no... :s
Ava was nice enough to do a good amount of Minmatar RP last time she was online, even if it has not been for maybe a month I have seen her online...
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*reads with some curiosity*
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Lyn, Kala's not complaining about Ava or accusing her of not doing enough. She's just saying that Ava being in game and RPing a bit is not a sign of Mini RP being alive and well.
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Lyn, Kala's not complaining about Ava or accusing her of not doing enough. She's just saying that Ava being in game and RPing a bit is not a sign of Mini RP being alive and well.
This. Two totally different things, especially given the conversations that Kala and I have had with Ava during the brief times she's been ingame.
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Lyn, Kala's not complaining about Ava or accusing her of not doing enough. She's just saying that Ava being in game and RPing a bit is not a sign of Mini RP being alive and well.
Ava being in - game and Ava being an active Minmatar rp'er are not the same thing.
Well, I really agree with your point Jennifer but... It's not what I understood. Ava seems pretty active to me as a Minmatar RPer, even if she is not as present ingame as she was before.
Anyway yes, the Mini RP is not alive and well, I think everyone has already come to the same conclusion eons ago :/
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I'm hoping to get re-subscribed soon for precisely the reasons that the OP noted. Amarr RP is active but I'm not having fun with my Amarr because there is very little to do outside the faction. I'm cooking up a couple ideas for a Minmatar (or maybe joint Minmatar/Gallente) corporation. The current concept borrows very heavily from my past experience with SFRIM (with my Amarr character, Tabor would never....) and Gradient. I enjoyed both those groups, and they've had tremendous success both as Eve corps and RP entities.
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Lyn, Kala's not complaining about Ava or accusing her of not doing enough. She's just saying that Ava being in game and RPing a bit is not a sign of Mini RP being alive and well.
Ava being in - game and Ava being an active Minmatar rp'er are not the same thing.
Well, I really agree with your point Jennifer but... It's not what I understood. Ava seems pretty active to me as a Minmatar RPer, even if she is not as present ingame as she was before.
Anyway yes, the Mini RP is not alive and well, I think everyone has already come to the same conclusion eons ago :/
You and I clearly have very different definitions of the word 'active'.
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So, what would people like?
My idea with Clan Ogunkoya was to promote it as a place for Republic loyal Matari that thought of themselves as outsiders to the clan & tribe mainstream. The corporate blurb should make that obvious enough.
Corp activity would be a mix of Republic space PvE, anti piracy and occasional tours in the militia. Possibly with some industrial activity depending on the type of recruits.
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Lyn, Kala's not complaining about Ava or accusing her of not doing enough. She's just saying that Ava being in game and RPing a bit is not a sign of Mini RP being alive and well.
Ava being in - game and Ava being an active Minmatar rp'er are not the same thing.
Well, I really agree with your point Jennifer but... It's not what I understood. Ava seems pretty active to me as a Minmatar RPer, even if she is not as present ingame as she was before.
Anyway yes, the Mini RP is not alive and well, I think everyone has already come to the same conclusion eons ago :/
You and I clearly have very different definitions of the word 'active'.
It would seem so.
But what are you contributing to the Minmatar RP yourself, you who are a lot more... active ? :|
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I had envisioned similar Corp activities Arnulf. Probably a little less focus on militia since that quickly becomes a grind. At first I had a knee-jerk reaction to the whole "outsiders to the clan/tribe mainstream" bit, but now that I think about it Tabor is pretty unorthodox. I'd have to discuss that a bit more in person.
What would I like?
1) A minmatar aligned corp that does a variety of activities (depending on what the membership wants) and avoids getting bogged down by a single in-game task (especially industry or FW)
2) A major part of the shared success of the Amarr-splosion was the establisment of shared IC and OOC channels so multiple Amarr groups could get together and plan stuff like RP events, OOC lore discussions, and even get fleets setup to bash RP enemies. Minmatar needs a set of channels like these so the minmatar groups that exist aren't just RPing in their own bubbles.
3) Lunarisse Aspenstar to go Tribal :D
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I would be interested to know how much RP Ushra Kahn does, like I do see them in space we do shoot at each other but by and large I don't see them in the Summit or other similar places.
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I've been working on making some things today, a bunch of chat channels that link to/from each other, to provide venues for people to do stuff.
Maybe people could do that?
and make the effort to interact with people there as well
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As had been touched on briefly earlier in the thread, Louella's channel network could at least be handy for open communications between parties interested in generating content. A Mataricentric OOC channel which welcomes all regardless of faction might echo the success of the Amarr model.
Taking from Silas in another thread:
The more hindsight I gain on the Eve IP the more I really do feel they gave the Matari the shaft on nearly every front. They gave them good background IP but the Republic never really went anywhere on their own. All of their storylines were only in relation to the other big 3.
I wonder if the divergence of varied RP camps has to do in part with inconsistencies in PF. Some push for Republic unison which is supported in part by PF, some push for tribal autonomy and inter-tribal tension which is also supported by some PF. Hopefully, in the case of the Minmatar, the OOC roundtable might get certain camps involved with outside entities, if not each other.
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Tabor and Arnulf, I would be delighted to help however I can OOCly or even ICly where it makes sense :D
On the subject of the OOC channel open to all the GalRP community has just started doing this, and it has seemed to do wonders. Last week everyone in the channel jumped into an IC venue and just did a general chit-chat thing as a result of them being all together in the OOC channel, it was amazing to see a room full of GalRPers talking and generally having some awesome RP.
I definitely would agree that the idea of having an OOC channel for anyone interested/involved in a faction's RP is an exceptionally useful idea - it fosters a sense of community which is essential I think. :) It also performs a function similar to what Louella mentioned it creates a node from which a larger network of channels, events, corporations, etc. can be linked to - like the hub in a wheel.
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Lyn, Kala's not complaining about Ava or accusing her of not doing enough. She's just saying that Ava being in game and RPing a bit is not a sign of Mini RP being alive and well.
Ava being in - game and Ava being an active Minmatar rp'er are not the same thing.
I'm not a Minmatar loyalist anymore, and I haven't been since August.
Doesn't mean I'm not interested in the state of the faction though.
Well, I really agree with your point Jennifer but... It's not what I understood. Ava seems pretty active to me as a Minmatar RPer, even if she is not as present ingame as she was before.
Anyway yes, the Mini RP is not alive and well, I think everyone has already come to the same conclusion eons ago :/
You and I clearly have very different definitions of the word 'active'.
It would seem so.
But what are you contributing to the Minmatar RP yourself, you who are a lot more... active ? :|
I have not been a Minmatar loyalist since August.
Doesn't stop me being interested in the state of the faction though.
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As had been touched on briefly earlier in the thread, Louella's channel network could at least be handy for open communications between parties interested in generating content. A Mataricentric OOC channel which welcomes all regardless of faction might echo the success of the Amarr model.
If these channels already exist they should be advertised. Posting here is nice but there are plenty of RPers who don't use backstage.
I wonder if the divergence of varied RP camps has to do in part with inconsistencies in PF. Some push for Republic unison which is supported in part by PF, some push for tribal autonomy and inter-tribal tension which is also supported by some PF. Hopefully, in the case of the Minmatar, the OOC roundtable might get certain camps involved with outside entities, if not each other.
This is one reason. The other reason I think has to do with some of the strong personalities we've had in Minmatar RP. Some of them don't get along so well and it's sort of balkanized the Minnie RP scene. I'm hopeful though, Amarr RP was pretty sparse and divided when Amarr OOC and Imperial Congregation channels were formed. Now things there are thriving. From what I've seen so far Gallente RP is starting to coalesce a bit more around their open channels. I'm very hopeful that a similar model will work for Minmatar.
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As had been touched on briefly earlier in the thread, Louella's channel network could at least be handy for open communications between parties interested in generating content. A Mataricentric OOC channel which welcomes all regardless of faction might echo the success of the Amarr model.
If these channels already exist they should be advertised. Posting here is nice but there are plenty of RPers who don't use backstage.
I 2nd Tabor's comment. Amarr side a lot of the new rpers have come from sources other than Backstage. Luna tends to send an IC mail to almost any new Amarr rper she sees with links to some IC and ooc channels and her "business card" :) Others have also been great about trying to spread the word too. Hit the pavement and recruit, whatever the faction - let them know you are there and about!
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I checked last night. There's already a dead channel "minmatar ooc" it redirects people to "matari ooc", which is also dead and has no motd. Does anyone happen to know who the owners are or should we make a new channel? Not sure I want to make "republic ooc" since there are so many minmatar players outside of the republic.
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There's already a dead channel "minmatar ooc" it redirects people to "matari ooc", which is also dead and has no motd. Does anyone happen to know who the owners are...
My google-fu was not strong, could not locate a reference to these channels on eve-o, chatsubo, or the blogroll. Not sure what Louella has cooking, maybe " Minmatar.OOC" could work?
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Or roll with a 'OOC Matari' or whatever.
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The thing I was doing, was using a channel that I already had, and making links from it, to a new set of channels.
And adding in some links to stuff on the evelopedia. Worldbuilding stuff. It's a resort on Caille, called the "Caille Virtualarium", has a bunch of links to other sections of the resort, and to a couple other places.
My thinking was, that if channels have links to other channels (a thing that is a relatively recent invention in the chat channel system, and making convenient links is even more recent), then it creates a web of channels, that can help to keep people RPing.
The trick being to get people to come in the first place. "If you build it, they will come", is all well and good when it's mysterious voices in the corn telling Kevin Costner to build a baseball field, but it's not always helpful for RP, lol.
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I quite like that setup Louella. We've seen a bit of it with some of the bigger venue events, but the real potential I think is in other areas. I've actually got something set up very similar to what you describe above, where I built a 'core' city area chat channel for Foundation called 'Foundation City Starport' (its a public channel) and it has links to venues that other members of the corp have made.
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The Elysion has taken that approach, as well as SFRIM's private corp offices which has a number of rooms.
From time to time The Holy Grape also has "menu" ads for other rp venues in an effort to help new places get exposure.
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I decided to put my money where my mouth is and resubscribe Asvard's account. So Clan Ogunkoya is a Thing again now it's CEO has come back from limbo.
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I decided to put my money where my mouth is and resubscribe Asvard's account. So Clan Ogunkoya is a Thing again now it's CEO has come back from limbo.
Awesomesauce! :D Do hit me up in-game (IC or OOC whichever works, or both! :D ) and if I can help let me know. :)
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Hide all the Amarr Womens! I've resubscribed and moved my corporation to Domain. Corporation recruitment stuff to be posted once it's ready. Also it seems like the minmatar.ooc channel is starting to be active. Lots of unfamiliar faces \o/.
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Corporation recruitment stuff to be posted once it's ready. Also it seems like the minmatar.ooc channel is starting to be active. Lots of unfamiliar faces \o/.
I will pop it into the MOTD if you like, just lemme know. \o
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Hide all the Amarr Womens! I've resubscribed and moved my corporation to Domain. Corporation recruitment stuff to be posted once it's ready. Also it seems like the minmatar.ooc channel is starting to be active. Lots of unfamiliar faces \o/.
Lunarisse Locks Maria up in a convent (wait, she tried that once and failed already). Seriously, good luck! and I am game to try to rp!
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I figured it would help foster interaction if nobody had to fly 22 jumps to interact. There are plenty of convenient RSS stations in Amarr space.
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I am so glad to see movement on the Minmatar front, and also the Gallente and Caldari. All four main factions now have OOC channels open to all interested (keep an eye out for a post about them soon). :D
It is really thrilling to see everyone chipping in to help grow the community as a whole so as to give us all a larger and more diverse RP world to interact with.
My thanks, congratulations, and continued to support to all those who are doing the hard yards on getting this ball rolling - and keeping it going. :)
-A
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Minmatar loyalist RP is about choosing to beat your head against the immovable object of slavery and the empire while all the amarr and caldari rpers get to sit in the peanut gallery and the minmatar non-loyalists (most minmatar Rpers in my experience) go on and on about how shit everything is in the republic is.
Don't get me wrong when you find other loyalists to talk to it is great rp. But you can only talk to the same 4 people everyday until it gets old.
You can only take one more optimal bonused new minmatar ship
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Minmatar loyalist RP is about choosing to beat your head against the immovable object of slavery and the empire while all the amarr and caldari rpers get to sit in the peanut gallery and the minmatar non-loyalists (most minmatar Rpers in my experience) go on and on about how shit everything is in the republic is.
Don't get me wrong when you find other loyalists to talk to it is great rp. But you can only talk to the same 4 people everyday until it gets old.
You can only take one more optimal bonused new minmatar ship
So you would say that you cannot be a Minmatar loyalist and articulate a position which seeks peaceful solutions to the issues of slavery and the Empire (to take one issue)? Surely as with any real life body politic the political field of the Republic and the Tribes is diverse with many competing views and positions. Enough that while IC a vehement anti-Amarr Minmatar would view the more conciliatory members of their society as traitors, OOC at least we can admit that they are both loyalists just with different political views on how to realise that loyalty?
Not unlike the distinction between a Liberal and Practical in the State, or a Sarumite and Kor-Azorite in the Empire? It has always puzzled me why the other big four seem to be able to accommodate a diversity of views, and still have those characters broadly considered loyalist, and yet the Minmatar seem to be denied this diversity by the players involved in the faction. I am curious is there PF support for the Minmatar not having any diversity to their loyalists? The question is asked generally of no one in particular. :)
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It's just more a matter of player demographics Arkon. Most minmatar RPers play outsiders and anti republicans. Some have reconciled a bit with Shakor new government, but at the same time Gradient and EM were the only real bastions of republic loyalists, and well, you know what happened.
So, there is a void for republic loyalists, and since it often interests a lot less the players usually...
Take it like the Caldari for example : half play Ishukone, if not more, and the rest play patriots like KK or just patriots. Also, Dragonaurs. But practicals ? Those are a rare breed, a lot more than in the past, which was already barely a few individuals. Same for Kador ? Who the hell play a kadorite ? It's either Sarum or Kor-Azor most of the time. TM and Ardishapur are just a few ones that stray from the mainstream. The only very diverse ones are the gallente, albeit I can argue that I have yet to see a sociocrat (2nd most powerful party in the fed with the liberals), which is a shame because that party is heavily associated with Mentas Blaque, who is painted an opportunistic villain with nothing of a sociocrat.
So yes, there is particular subfactions that are rarely, if not, played. And the Republic side of the Minmatar can at times be one of them, and that's an issue because the Republic is the most important of all of them for the Minmatar (their government !).
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It's just more a matter of player demographics Arkon. Most minmatar RPers play outsiders and anti republicans. Some have reconciled a bit with Shakor new government, but at the same time Gradient and EM were the only real bastions of republic loyalists, and well, you know what happened.
So, there is a void for republic loyalists, and since it often interests a lot less the players usually...
Take it like the Caldari for example : half play Ishukone, if not more, and the rest play patriots like KK or just patriots. Also, Dragonaurs. But practicals ? Those are a rare breed, a lot more than in the past, which was already barely a few individuals. Same for Kador ? Who the hell play a kadorite ? It's either Sarum or Kor-Azor most of the time. TM and Ardishapur are just a few ones that stray from the mainstream. The only very diverse ones are the gallente, albeit I can argue that I have yet to see a sociocrat (2nd most powerful party in the fed with the liberals), which is a shame because that party is heavily associated with Mentas Blaque, who is painted an opportunistic villain with nothing of a sociocrat.
So yes, there is particular subfactions that are rarely, if not, played. And the Republic side of the Minmatar can at times be one of them, and that's an issue because the Republic is the most important of all of them for the Minmatar (their government !).
I can definitely see how the population base of the Minmatar RP community would affect how present the different loyalists are in EVE. But I suppose my question was more about the term "loyalist" itself.
I have noticed that there is a tendency to believe that to be a Minmatar loyalist you have to be anti-Amarr, with military action being necessary, and I question whether this is accurate. I pointed to the distinction between say a Practical and Liberal in the State to elucidate the fact that it would seem the players and characters of the State would accept the differing views of those two groups as still being loyalist. Yet I do not believe I have seen, admittedly in my limited time in EVE, the same of the Minmatar and my conversations OOC have tended to have loyalty to the Minmatar being defined by a hatred of the Amarr.
So I was wondering if this is accurate, both in terms of PF and logic, of what we would consider loyalist; and if so why do the Minmatar seem to be defined by one issue? Understanding this I am sure will be helpful for me in doing what I can to help the other side of things OOCly. :)
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Maybe it was more a thing of the past, when Midular was still in office, which created a lot of tension and almost war between UK and EM for example. It was a very ambivalent relationship with the Amarr :she seeked to end slavery, but was pragmatic enough to live in an intergalactic cluster rather than a minmatar enclosed one. Which is one of he big issues with current leaders actually : they don't care about the bigger picture, they just care about their immediate interests and so go to war with everyone and make their factions look utterly stupid in the process.
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Maybe it was more a thing of the past, when Midular was still in office, which created a lot of tension and almost war between UK and EM for example. It was a very ambivalent relationship with the Amarr :she seeked to end slavery, but was pragmatic enough to live in an intergalactic cluster rather than a minmatar enclosed one. Which is one of he big issues with current leaders actually : they don't care about the bigger picture, they just care about their immediate interests and so go to war with everyone and make their factions look utterly stupid in the process.
I have noticed that, the thing about the current leaders, and it spurred on the event I am organising actually - if they can't be sensible we might be able to XD
But yes thank you for the answers and insight - actually a massive thank you to everyone, this has been a delight and pleasure to talk and get more informed :D
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So you would say that you cannot be a Minmatar loyalist and articulate a position which seeks peaceful solutions to the issues of slavery and the Empire (to take one issue)? Surely as with any real life body politic the political field of the Republic and the Tribes is diverse with many competing views and positions. Enough that while IC a vehement anti-Amarr Minmatar would view the more conciliatory members of their society as traitors, OOC at least we can admit that they are both loyalists just with different political views on how to realise that loyalty?
No, I would not say that at all. If anything the people who wrote and played militant characters have had to moderate themselves or just outright roll new characters just to be able to have anyone to RP with. In the last year and a half or so 'pro-peace minmatar' seemed to be coming into their own. Unfortunately most intelligent Matari are neglecting to elaborate on exactly how we mean to have peace. (I'm guessing Malcolm not Martin Luther.) And yes I have seen very interesting and provoking inter-republican politics and dramatic schisms within republic politics and interpretations of how to free the slaves, who we are etc.... All great stuff. Actually with out a doubt the best RP I have had has always been arguing with other Minmatar about Minmatar stuff. But its just like, ...three of us.
As poor as the state of the minmatar RP is I still can't see myself RPing anything other than Minmatar. I guess it takes a special kind of stupid or stubborn to fly around in ships bonused for projectile optimal waiting for the strength to free the slaves or god to step in and at least remove the in-game item with a lore bit as caldari gets another thousand player live event and you know the best RPers you have ever RP'd with are chained up to some failed plot line in Amarrian space just waiting to be freed.
So you can ride your motorcycle to where the Naglfar's are secretly not secretly the best dread. and Projectiles can hard counter anything if flown right and the slaves are free and we have a million sweet tattoos and all our ships stop coming out as gallante ships and fear the tribes.
So we sit here, chained and waiting for the day our plot line advances. Protecting our line in the sand and waiting for minmatar to be half as good as it could be.
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So you would say that you cannot be a Minmatar loyalist and articulate a position which seeks peaceful solutions to the issues of slavery and the Empire (to take one issue)? Surely as with any real life body politic the political field of the Republic and the Tribes is diverse with many competing views and positions. Enough that while IC a vehement anti-Amarr Minmatar would view the more conciliatory members of their society as traitors, OOC at least we can admit that they are both loyalists just with different political views on how to realise that loyalty?
No, I would not say that at all. If anything the people who wrote and played militant characters have had to moderate themselves or just outright roll new characters just to be able to have anyone to RP with. In the last year and a half or so 'pro-peace minmatar' seemed to be coming into their own. Unfortunately most intelligent Matari are neglecting to elaborate on exactly how we mean to have peace. (I'm guessing Malcolm not Martin Luther.) And yes I have seen very interesting and provoking inter-republican politics and dramatic schisms within republic politics and interpretations of how to free the slaves, who we are etc.... All great stuff. Actually with out a doubt the best RP I have had has always been arguing with other Minmatar about Minmatar stuff. But its just like, ...three of us.
As poor as the state of the minmatar RP is I still can't see myself RPing anything other than Minmatar. I guess it takes a special kind of stupid or stubborn to fly around in ships bonused for projectile optimal waiting for the strength to free the slaves or god to step in and at least remove the in-game item with a lore bit as caldari gets another thousand player live event and you know the best RPers you have ever RP'd with are chained up to some failed plot line in Amarrian space just waiting to be freed.
So you can ride your motorcycle to where the Naglfar's are secretly not secretly the best dread. and Projectiles can hard counter anything if flown right and the slaves are free and we have a million sweet tattoos and all our ships stop coming out as gallante ships and fear the tribes.
So we sit here, chained and waiting for the day our plot line advances. Protecting our line in the sand and waiting for minmatar to be half as good as it could be.
I admit even in my short time I can empathise with that, I cannot imagine how aggravating it is for someone who has spent considerably more time invested in the story around a faction.
For what it is worth you have my thanks for keeping the flame lit and here's hoping that the story will advance - it will be better for all in EVE if it did, in my opinion. :)
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I was pretty frustrated with a lot of the same things Ayallah. Taking a break helped a lot and now I'm kind of excited to play a Minmatar again. I'm definitely going a bit more Pro-Republic and (dare I say it?) Pro-Shakor than before. Hopefully we can get a few more people online and active. We still only have a few people in Minmatar OOC and IC channels like The Standing Place but you have to start somewhere. Amarr OOC/Imperial Congregation was pretty much the same 3-5 people for the first few months as well. Now Amarr is one of the more active RP communities.
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So you would say that you cannot be a Minmatar loyalist and articulate a position which seeks peaceful solutions to the issues of slavery and the Empire (to take one issue)? Surely as with any real life body politic the political field of the Republic and the Tribes is diverse with many competing views and positions. Enough that while IC a vehement anti-Amarr Minmatar would view the more conciliatory members of their society as traitors, OOC at least we can admit that they are both loyalists just with different political views on how to realise that loyalty?
No, I would not say that at all. If anything the people who wrote and played militant characters have had to moderate themselves or just outright roll new characters just to be able to have anyone to RP with. In the last year and a half or so 'pro-peace minmatar' seemed to be coming into their own. Unfortunately most intelligent Matari are neglecting to elaborate on exactly how we mean to have peace. (I'm guessing Malcolm not Martin Luther.) And yes I have seen very interesting and provoking inter-republican politics and dramatic schisms within republic politics and interpretations of how to free the slaves, who we are etc.... All great stuff. Actually with out a doubt the best RP I have had has always been arguing with other Minmatar about Minmatar stuff. But its just like, ...three of us.
As poor as the state of the minmatar RP is I still can't see myself RPing anything other than Minmatar. I guess it takes a special kind of stupid or stubborn to fly around in ships bonused for projectile optimal waiting for the strength to free the slaves or god to step in and at least remove the in-game item with a lore bit as caldari gets another thousand player live event and you know the best RPers you have ever RP'd with are chained up to some failed plot line in Amarrian space just waiting to be freed.
So you can ride your motorcycle to where the Naglfar's are secretly not secretly the best dread. and Projectiles can hard counter anything if flown right and the slaves are free and we have a million sweet tattoos and all our ships stop coming out as gallante ships and fear the tribes.
So we sit here, chained and waiting for the day our plot line advances. Protecting our line in the sand and waiting for minmatar to be half as good as it could be.
So much this. So, so, so fucking much this.
Which is also part of why I'm so interested in Silver's new thing.
EDIT: To elaborate a little bit, Havo was for a long time a self-proclaimed "loyalist to the Matari people" rather than the Republic or its government, because for a long time it was run by a very peace-minded Midular regime. Then he was guardedly optimistic about Shakor taking power. Then our plotline stopped, no more news items from CCP, nothing. So how do I proceed as a player? I was given the choice of A: assume the best and play as if Shakor is being a hardass and standing up to the Empire and shouting "Let my people go!" and "Give us free!" at the top of his blind lungs, or B: assume the worst and play as if Shakor rattled some sabers but really wasn't making any headway (the much more realistic possibility, all things considered - the Republic can't stand toe-to-toe with the Empire, so all that would be available would be posturing and bluster).
Of course, this (and Havo's history of being a mass-murderer of Minmatar slaves) put him at odds with characters like Ava and Ayallah, who, while not being conciliatory Midular-esque Minmatar characters themselves, were guaranteed to not be able to get behind Havo's bullshit.
So yeah, very few MinRP folks who weren't waving GalFed flags while I was active, and of those, I felt like the lore only gave me/my character options that would necessarily put me at odds with the few others who were around. C'est la vie. :ccp: I hope to see Silver's thing take off to a decent enough start to justify a resub <3
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Honestly, it's about the players, the characters they play and a lot of PR, to establish that you can be non-violent and loyalist. Especially when they started FW, it was either you fly for the crusade or whatever or you can't be loyalist. One can only change such things with time and PR campaigning.
I don't think at all that it's got to do with viability of ships in PvP, whether there is a vibrant RP community for a faction. Nor do I think it is about the events which CCP is handing out.
Building an active RP community is mainly work by the players, that is the community-to-be. What is accepted within that community, again, is mainly depending on that community.
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I agree Nicoletta. Frustration with ships and game mechanics meta should be a completely separate issue. I used to hear a lot about it from Ava and I never really understood the frustration. If anything I would think it gives the characters something to talk about besides slavery, faction warfare, or dessert.
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These posts seem to reinforce the impression I got that the PF bears some blame in the division of Minmatar camps. Good points from everyone with regard to things that can define a 'loyalist', which brings me back to Arkon's OP, that being the purpose of the faction OOC channels in giving players a place to nurture content in spite of, or perhaps in concert with, character differences.
*takes a place in the queue waiting for Silver*
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The ships thing was illustrating the point. Minmatar is race #4
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...god to step in and at least remove the in-game item with a lore bit as caldari gets another thousand player live event...
Hey now, don't go calling the "Battle of Caldari Prime" a "Caldari event". Until public protest made them do otherwise, CCP was making sure that anyone with poor Fed standings wouldn't even be getting close to Caldari Prime in anything larger than a capsule. When it occurred, CCP simply spawned dreads until people repping the Leviathan were overwhelmed...and hey, even if they'd killed those, CCP TonyG - I mean, CCP Falcon - stated that the Fed would have just warped in all their Solteur-Class Titans (EvE Fiction thread). And when Caldari Dusties managed to narrowly win the battle on the ground anyway (somewhere between 53-57%, as I recall), CCP simply retconned it in EvE:Source as a total victory for the Gallente on the ground, with all Caldari forces captured. I'm not kidding even a little bit.
So, yes, Minmatar get ignored by CCP. But the only reason Caldari show up in events lately is to do something stupid (Heth and his goons), or get shit on, because they are the opponent of the Fed. Don't blame us. :P
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I will say this, what is happened with the Shakor storyline is 100% awesome how it is almost exactly the opposite of Heth.
A terrorist disappears, then overthrows the old government and becomes an amazing leader and gives the people the exact utopian ideal government they wanted while everyone thinks he is a dictator. A charismatic man of the people becomes a dictator while everyone thinks he is reforming the government to the utopian ideal they wanted. Then he becomes a terrorist and disappears!
And the new Republic is fucking awesome in nearly every way and so was what we got in source lore and PF wise. I actually am super motivated to pursue the minmatar plot line in the future. While we are still have very little information, now we have some very key points of information that Minmatar always lacked. The Matari government is just as crazy and tribal and cool as it could have been and I think they overall did a really great job.
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Oh, don't misunderstand, I do hope that they do some interesting things with the Minmatar. It's just that, after having had my most favored faction mutilated and kicked around for the last six-and-a-half years, I'm almost in favor of being ignored. Hell, we couldn't even get rid of Heth without it being the Gallente that essentially defeated him, even though virtually every Caldari capsuleer besides Kim was just frothing at the mouth to do it.
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Hey now, don't go calling the "Battle of Caldari Prime" a "Caldari event". Until public protest made them do otherwise, CCP was making sure that anyone with poor Fed standings wouldn't even be getting close to Caldari Prime in anything larger than a capsule. When it occurred, CCP simply spawned dreads until people repping the Leviathan were overwhelmed...and hey, even if they'd killed those, CCP TonyG - I mean, CCP Falcon - stated that the Fed would have just warped in all their Solteur-Class Titans (EvE Fiction thread). And when Caldari Dusties managed to narrowly win the battle on the ground anyway (somewhere between 53-57%, as I recall), CCP simply retconned it in EvE:Source as a total victory for the Gallente on the ground, with all Caldari forces captured. I'm not kidding even a little bit.
That approach was extremely counter-productive to the myth of Federal Navy supremacy, since the endlessly spawning waves of Dreadnoughts were the most attractive thing on the field for the massed capsuleers to attack, once they'd gotten onto the Shiigeru killmail.
And kill they did. There were capsuleers shredding Moros until the engagement timers timed out. This despite the usual CCP methodology of warping to zero with Blaster fit Moros and totally throwing the OPFOR under the bus - all the while pretending it was all to play for.
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I wouldn't discount the ship thing at all, lots of us have a primary focus on PVP, in fact I would call myself a pvper first and an RPer second, and it does detract significantly from your expierence if you believe the ships from "your side" aren't something worth using.
I am not saying it is what is killing Minnie RP after all I recently made the switch to using almost exclusively Minmatar ships myself recently and my character first and foremost is a Nation loyalist (though this switch was due to IC reasons).
I personally feel that for my preferred role (anti-kite) Minmatar ships are probably the best in the game; the perception however, is that they are an outdated 2009 meta that doesn't work in the garmur/Ishtar meta of 2015. I think if the perception was changed then this would become much less of an issue.
Tl;dr: Minmatar technology is the best in the cluster of you only believe it is, so you shouldn't let that hurt your RP.
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I had forgotten how much of a 'fuck you' to the playerbase the Caldari Prime event was, what with the predetermined victors.
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Don't forget Coleilie, where the Minmatar fight a greater number of Moros with their Naglfars at 0. For honour.
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Honestly, it's about the players, the characters they play and a lot of PR, to establish that you can be non-violent and loyalist. Especially when they started FW, it was either you fly for the crusade or whatever or you can't be loyalist. One can only change such things with time and PR campaigning.
I don't think at all that it's got to do with viability of ships in PvP, whether there is a vibrant RP community for a faction. Nor do I think it is about the events which CCP is handing out.
Building an active RP community is mainly work by the players, that is the community-to-be. What is accepted within that community, again, is mainly depending on that community.
My thoughts exactly.
The ships thing was illustrating the point. Minmatar is race #4
It has been race #1 for eons, and the only thing viable in pvp besides BS fights... I understand that it has become somewhat meh in some regards apparently, but a lot of their stuff is still perfectly decent, or even performs well (lololol ASB breachers).
For years when I started playing Eve, and it really continued like that for years, everyone flew minmatar in pvp, because it was just the best at pretty much everything. vOv
...god to step in and at least remove the in-game item with a lore bit as caldari gets another thousand player live event...
Hey now, don't go calling the "Battle of Caldari Prime" a "Caldari event". Until public protest made them do otherwise, CCP was making sure that anyone with poor Fed standings wouldn't even be getting close to Caldari Prime in anything larger than a capsule. When it occurred, CCP simply spawned dreads until people repping the Leviathan were overwhelmed...and hey, even if they'd killed those, CCP TonyG - I mean, CCP Falcon - stated that the Fed would have just warped in all their Solteur-Class Titans (EvE Fiction thread). And when Caldari Dusties managed to narrowly win the battle on the ground anyway (somewhere between 53-57%, as I recall), CCP simply retconned it in EvE:Source as a total victory for the Gallente on the ground, with all Caldari forces captured. I'm not kidding even a little bit.
So, yes, Minmatar get ignored by CCP. But the only reason Caldari show up in events lately is to do something stupid (Heth and his goons), or get shit on, because they are the opponent of the Fed. Don't blame us. :P
Well it's CCP. Remember Aurora ? It has always been the same rigged outcomes.
I will say this, what is happened with the Shakor storyline is 100% awesome how it is almost exactly the opposite of Heth.
A terrorist disappears, then overthrows the old government and becomes an amazing leader and gives the people the exact utopian ideal government they wanted while everyone thinks he is a dictator. A charismatic man of the people becomes a dictator while everyone thinks he is reforming the government to the utopian ideal they wanted. Then he becomes a terrorist and disappears!
And the new Republic is fucking awesome in nearly every way and so was what we got in source lore and PF wise. I actually am super motivated to pursue the minmatar plot line in the future. While we are still have very little information, now we have some very key points of information that Minmatar always lacked. The Matari government is just as crazy and tribal and cool as it could have been and I think they overall did a really great job.
You think so ? Well, considering how little we have on the Minmatar faction as of now, and their government included, I fail to see how I could even qualify it as awesome or piss poor tbh... We just know it's a 'tribal government'... ._.
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Don't forget Coleilie, where the Minmatar fight a greater number of Moros with their Naglfars at 0. For honour.
We could start a whole other thread with Live Events fail.
On the one hand, I absolutely understand limited CCP staff, limited resources, etc.
On the other hand, WTF? Having NPCs, even scripted NPCs do basics and put on a good show is basic par for the course for pc games, get the hell with it. If you are going to advertise a thing, or suggest players have control of a thing, then get it done.
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I think all the factions eventually move to the bottom of the pvp meta pile for a time.
Not very very sad for Minmatar at the bottom though considering for about 80% of eve's life span they were undisputed best at everything. :P
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I think the CCP event with those Serpentis/Cartel forces doing that thing where they bombed those planets with the Genesis Vaults, was the biggest thing in recent times to affect Minmatar RP.
prior to that, there was some kind of uneasy association between Republican Minmatar and Angel cartel Minmatar. The Republicans thinking along the lines of the Cartel being a sometimes necessary evil. That sort of thing.
With the destruction of the Genesis Vaults, and the resulting ending of the attempt to restore Matar's ecology, then, that's the proverbial line in the sand, that had been crossed. The Cartel had actively damaged the home world of all Matari. Unforgiveable.
Which means that the Cartel and Republican Minmatar find themselves with nothing to say to each other. What can they say ? So it kind of split the community.
And when there's a split, it harms everything.