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[Jace]

Metagame if I am remembering right .. and example is: using the knowledge of the map to increase performance.  ie. using a secret hiding spot (that you learned yourself on another playthrough) is metagaming.

aka everyone does it in eve.

This is an example of how it has lost meaning. Originally, metagame meant the use of out-of-game knowledge and resources (or more strictly speaking, out of ruleset parameters) to affect the game. In RP, it is attempting to take advantage of the OOC player in some way to affect roleplaying. Which is often what throw away RP alt characters are for - they are created to try to take advantage of OOC knowledge of the targeted RPers through their characters by making a character specifically to target a certain player or character.

Within the specific context of roleplaying, it can be summed up simply as 'bad roleplaying.'

[Arista Shahni]

There's another word for it.

Cheating.

[The Scythian]

So according to OP, the metagame is not a game. Hm.

Metagame is by definition not a game. If it were, it would not need the 'meta' in front of it.

But beyond that, 'metagame' in this context has essentially lost all meaning in MMOs. The term has been so misused and abused that it no longer means anything.

Of course the metagame is a game. Most/all of major player driven events in EVE are a result of the metagame. The EVE Uni interview of The Mittani speaks to some of it.

The word is abused, of course.. but people generally don't understand it very well. The rules of person to person interactions are not part of the ruleset for EVE as a game. Nonetheless these interactions are a game, and the most important aspect of EVE.

Edit: Regarding bad roleplaying, my response to OP meant simply this: The OP seems to think they are restricted to shooting at a person in order to have an in-game result to his satisfaction. Call it bad roleplaying if you'd like, but there are many ways to achieve a desired result with another EVE character without ever having to employ a single in-game action. I'll leave it up to you to figure out what those are.

[Havohej]

Of course the metagame is a game. Most/all of major player driven events in EVE are a result of the metagame. The EVE Uni interview of The Mittani speaks to some of it.

The word is abused, of course.. but people generally don't understand it very well. The rules of person to person interactions are not part of the ruleset for EVE as a game. Nonetheless these interactions are a game, and the most important aspect of EVE.

Edit: Regarding bad roleplaying, my response to OP meant simply this: The OP seems to think they are restricted to shooting at a person in order to have an in-game result to his satisfaction. Call it bad roleplaying if you'd like, but there are many ways to achieve a desired result with another EVE character without ever having to employ a single in-game action. I'll leave it up to you to figure out what those are.

I thought you were trolling.  On the off chance that you weren't/aren't...

What you say is true.  I'm speaking in particular to the part I bolded.

You seem to assume I am not capable of figuring out what those are, or at least have not yet done so.  This assumption couldn't be farther from the mark.  I am simply not interested in those things.  I find what I do with my character to be fun.  There are plenty of other people in the RP scene who do undock and do things in space that can be adversely effected by their enemies' actions in space, and it is more fun to interact with those players' characters - for me.  For me, even if Havo has no intention of harming that character, it is more fun to interact with that character knowing that if one side or the other doesn't mind their p's and q's, they're liable to get shot at, or maybe even full-on wardec'd.  This is especially so when I know that the character(s) Havohej is interacting with are run by other PvPers like Ayallah or Ava Starfire or Merdaneth or any PIE, Inc. pilot, or Eran Mintor, or Katrina Oniseki, or Diana Kim, or hell, even Seriphyn.

IGS/Channel alts and their players can do their thing and have their fun - it's their money those players are spending on the game.  Whatever enjoyment they derive from this playstyle, more power to them.  I don't have to participate in it, that's all.  I'm not restricted from participating in it, nor do I think I am.  I choose to abstain from participating in it in favor of participating in things that I find enjoyable.

As to whether it's bad roleplaying, that's a slippery slope I don't want to walk up.  What I will say is this: those characters may be very deep and interesting, their players may be excellent roleplayers.  To my thinking, all a roleplayer is is an improvisational collaborative storyteller.  We're writing a story together, all of us who interact with one another, each relying on the other(s) to fill in the details and actions of their respective characters within the setting that CCP (or whatever other game designer) has laid out for us.  An analogy, then:

I love the Forgotten Realms campaign setting.  I love R.A. Salvatore's work, and Elaine Cunningham, and Drew Karpyshyn.  But I refuse to read a novel by Ed Greenwood... I just don't like his style.  It is the same here in my choice not to interact with certain types of characters.  I like telling and participating in stories where spaceships blow up.  If I can determine from the outset that this will not be possible, it is very simple to just disengage from that thread of the story and move on to something else.

The point of the OP here is/was not to find out who runs that character, if it is in fact an alt.  It isn't to criticize the widespread use of what I consider to be substance-less talking heads on the IGS or chat channels (personal opinion, as I've already said, I'm sure some of these characters are very deep and interesting).  It was merely to find out if there would have been any point in Havo getting riled up about competition for the Diana Kim bid.  If no point, I/Havo would've let the bidding go altogether.  If yes point, the entire thing could have escalated in fun and interesting ways for me as a player.

Of course, it's a moot point now that that character's DK bid is withdrawn.  If Kyllsa Siikanen wants a bidding war over Eran Mintor, though, autocannons may be involved.

[The Scythian]

You seem to assume I am not capable of figuring out what those are, or at least have not yet done so.  This assumption couldn't be farther from the mark.  I am simply not interested in those things.  I find what I do with my character to be fun.  There are plenty of other people in the RP scene who do undock and do things in space that can be adversely effected by their enemies' actions in space, and it is more fun to interact with those players' characters - for me.  For me, even if Havo has no intention of harming that character, it is more fun to interact with that character knowing that if one side or the other doesn't mind their p's and q's, they're liable to get shot at, or maybe even full-on wardec'd.  This is especially so when I know that the character(s) Havohej is interacting with are run by other PvPers like Ayallah or Ava Starfire or Merdaneth or any PIE, Inc. pilot, or Eran Mintor, or Katrina Oniseki, or Diana Kim, or hell, even Seriphyn.

Just so you know, it is not my habit or liking to troll. I make posts so that a topic can be discussed (and hopefully not just in a superficial way).

Thanks for clarifying what drives Havo to have interesting RP interactions. Maybe I can offer my own perspective for your consideration.

I'm very new to trying out roleplay of any kind, and relatively new to EVE (less than a year). When I joined the game, it wasn't to roleplay, so my "main" (I don't really like that term.. I'm sure Jace knows exactly why) is more or less me. I've posted on eve forums quite frequently, and I have a large number of contacts with whom I've interacted as myself.. not a character concept which would be the preferred vehicle for roleplay.

So when I make a pilot specifically for roleplay, it's because I don't want to RP myself (because really it's sort of an unimaginitive thing to do). Now EVE is not an inexpensive game, and as a new pilot it isn't exactly feasible to suddenly have my RP pilot ready to go training skills and flying ships and whatnot.

But I still believe I can contribute something significant to the roleplay experience without having the ability to undock and provide a meaningful encounter (simply because of personal RL economics). Maybe that's not something Havo would be into.. but I feel that maybe some of the realities and limitations of EVE should be considered here.

[Havohej]

I can understand that.  My days of running multiple alt accounts (I only ever had 3, max) at a time are suspended for the time being.

I should clarify one thing, I think - it's only conflict RP that I as a player find pointless and time-wasting when it involves the sort of alt we're talking about.  I do not speak for everyone (obviously!), but if you've had an opportunity to observe Havohej communicating IC, he's usually very civil - generally.  When things escalate beyond civility and "fighting words" start to be spoken, that's when I as a player need it to be with someone who'll actually undock and fight if it comes to that (because I will undock and fight, I'll even fly halfway across the cluster for that fight given enough IC motivation).

I don't mind interacting with the such characters that, while they may speak critically, derisively, even insultingly about Havo, they avoid escalating to the point where shooting things is the only recourse left.  As an example, I'll actually cite Ayallah here.  Countless times she's called Havo disgusting, countless times she's accused him of doing more harm than good and told him he should go kill himself.  Only once did she ever say anything that made a fight become inevitable.

In Ayallah's case, of course, that fight did happen (and Havo lost), but Aya's restraint as an RPer is laudable because, frankly, while I (and I'm sure Aya as well) am willing to travel quite far for an RP-fueled fight... it's bloody inconvenient.  I can't speak for Ayallah-p, but I suspect that's part of the reason the dialogue between them so rarely escalates that far.

I guess what I'm saying is, I feel that if someone's playing a character that isn't actually going to fight anyone in the game, that character should adhere to the age old rule: "Don't start no shit, won't be no shit."

I have and continue to (I am sure) interacted IC with characters that don't "exist" in space (that is, they don't undock, they're untrained RP alts).  But once one crosses that line, it becomes boring to continue interacting.

Havo: Grr!
RP-Alt: lawl I don't undock hue hue
Havo: GRRRRR!!

And because RP-Alt doesn't undock, the exchange can literally go no further.  I don't find that interesting.  When RP-Alt doesn't verbally escalate conflicts to a point of futility, everything is fine.

Personal preferences and opinions, again.  If a person's spending $15 per month to stir shit up and not fight, I wish them joy of it - but they can do it with someone besides my character.   

[The Scythian]

I understand what you're saying now and it does make sense.

Undock/station games are quite frustrating even outside of RP land!


In any case if I ever got to that point with Havo, I would graciously offer my main to be shot up instead..

[Jace]

I understand what you're saying now and it does make sense.

Undock/station games are quite frustrating even outside of RP land!


In any case if I ever got to that point with Havo, I would graciously offer my main to be shot up instead..

So I don't derail the thread with the metagame discussion, I'll holler at you later this weekend abouts it.

Also, very glad you decided to join up and roll an RP character. 

[The Scythian]

*hip checks Jace*

And sorry for the derail

[Jace]

*hip checks Jace*

And sorry for the derail

Nah, you didn't derail it. My little side comment was the derailing moment. Hip check me again sometime this week and I can give you the names of some of my characters that I actually play more frequently so you can find me in-game.

[BloodBird]

Once, we had a war with Andy's corp.  This war only amounted to one battle.  We had to fly halfway across highsec space to get that battle because he was too lazy to meet us halfway.  He used TWO neutral logistics cruisers to support his two Domis vs. our BC gang.  It was an unwinnable engagement from the outset.  And of course, he twists the knife about this every chance he gets, IC and OOC.

However, pvp happened, fun was had, and from now until the servers shut down, Havohej must bear the disgust of having been defeated by someone he despises so much.  He must also bear the shame of having to admit to it should it ever come up IC, and it has a couple of times.  (OOC, I don't care that he won any more than I care that Ayallah killed my Firetail with her Wolf... it's pixels).

I recall this happening, thought not all the details. The Two logi's were two IRL friends of mine who happened to be around, and I, IIRC was in Andy's corp at the time. At least I think that's how it went. Just like it up to you to provide your fun, it's up to others to do what they can to win their fights. You decced, a fight was had. Why rush off to face you on your turf, after all you decced Andreus and he as well as me were elsewhere doing other things. We waited for you to show in what was our turf at that time. And you did.

I can't recall if anyone lost anything in that engagement at all. I think it ended up in a stalemate and got disengaged eventually, though that may have been a different war, Andreus has been in a few for a few reasons, and this is a good long while ago now.

Beyond this I agree with your reasoning for the most part. I don't want to get involved with non-entities either - by that I mean, if the toon I'm interacting with is just a cheap mouth-piece practically smacking from the safety of a station or such, then what's the point? Block, mute, ignore, move on and find more legit players to interact with. If at all possible, if I'm having any kind of RP relationship with anyone, it should be someone that actively plays the game, and though you can technically play the game from inside the station, I'd hazard a guess that some 90% + of the game's content require you to undock and do something, somewhere, for some reason.

Run your mouth from in station all you like. If nothing is happening in space your coms will be muted and BB will go on with his stuff as if nothing had happened.

Or this would happen, if I still played the game at this point.

Finally, I would like to point out a separate but similar issue:

It goes a little something like this:

Do something that others don't like.

Receive criticism for this action and get called out on it.

Claim that the criticism is irrelevant and worthless unless the critics - who are in groups you vastly outnumber and outgun - declares war on you to 'legitimize their opinions'.

Now, there is a difference between hollow mouth-pieces spewing stuff from a position that will never be endangered because it's all on the forums or in-game chat and the opponent never leaves their dock and have no intention of doing so - and flaunting your higher power around at others who are actively doing other things, and then claiming that anything they may have to say about you that is not positive needs war-decs to be "legit".

Especially jarring when you know full well that these characters may have vastly different goals and desires, or are already busy with other things, and thus would not deck you from an IC stand-point.

I point this out to clarify that I agree that blatant no-substance characters that never do anything don't deserve to get interacted with because, frankly, if the toon's whole existence is angry words on EVE-O etc. it's not much to interact with, it's just forum drama, but on the flip-side not everyone will be interested in interacting with you in space even if they can, because in some cases the balance of relative power is vastly different and from an IC and OOC point of view it's foolish to engage in battle with this vastly more powerful entity, even if your character is one who would IC make their opinion regarding your IC actions clear.

[Jace]

As far as the whole 'ignoring people' thing, I decide who to ignore based on factors completely unrelated to whether they spend all their time in a station or not. I don't care if you kill 100 ships a week, if all you do is spam and shiptoast, you're getting blocked.

[BloodBird]

As far as the whole 'ignoring people' thing, I decide who to ignore based on factors completely unrelated to whether they spend all their time in a station or not. I don't care if you kill 100 ships a week, if all you do is spam and shiptoast, you're getting blocked.

Hilarious typo is hilarious

[Jace]

Shiptoast? Rather than a typo, it means I spend too much time in LAGL. They say shiptoast all the time in der.

[Jace]

Unless of course they are just trying to piss people off that want a wardec. In that case, the strategy works very well.