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[kalaratiri]

Make me a mod, I'll be Vince's slightly less dickish alter ego

[Havohej]

To be blunt, I would have had a bit more respect for you historically Silver Night if you had ever come out to say "yes, I was massively offended that Cosmo couldn't be bullied into banning people from Chatsubo because they were his alliance leader and his alliance leader's internet spaceships paramour" I mean, it would have been more honest! And too his credit Havohej pretty much did come out and say that  

Hi by the way!

FTFY

Didn't watch the video, but I rarely do.  CBA waiting for a video to load.

Nice condescending condensation of what happened; fortunately it's all preserved since Cosmo hasn't taken the site down.  Which is a great thing, especially given his previously stated motive for deciding to continue footing the bill for its hosting.

We expressed a desire for that material to remain at Backstage's inception.  We wanted the good of Chatsubo to survive.  Nobody benefits from its loss.

I think it needs to be explicitly said here that we aren't taking the stance of "Our rules are perfect, nothing needs to change, if you don't like it you can fuck off to the wasteland."  We're holding to the stance of "This forum exists for a reason, to support a certain atmosphere, and we aren't going to abandon that altogether."

Hi yourself!  <3

[Jade Constantine]

Awwww, I've been so long away from passive-aggressive Eve posting I'd forgotten what it was like to be quote-queered! Thank you for the waltz down memory lane Havohej!

[Havohej]

I've always loved you, Jade, you know that.  I miss your posting and titan-bridge dropping fleets onto assholes in the warzone. 

I should think you must at least respect my having the stones to stick to my guns and remove my corp from a pretty cushy OOC situation over an IC ideological despute, regardless of the OOC shit that would wind up developing.  I told you then and I still feel this way:  You're a decent person and I considered you a friend - still do, in that "old buddy I haven't talked to in ages" kind of way.  But make no mistake, I do put the fall of Chatsubo squarely at you and Revan's four feet.

Nobody said "Come to Backstage, don't use Chatsubo anymore."  People came here and for a while some were still posting there, or I assumed as much because I was still seeing links to chatsubo posts in ingame channels.  I can't speak for Silver's catalyst, but the catalyst for me leaping to offer the initial hosting of Backstage was you and her suffering no consequence at all for your posting behaviours while anyone posting against your clique received moderation, warnings and/or bans.

I re-read the first page of the thread that was linked and it all came rushing back.  Memory lane, indeed.  I still think you're a decent guy, mate, but given the actuality of how that all went down 4 years ago, I can't take seriously your pointing the finger at Silver and/or me about being crybabies because Cosmo wouldn't ban people who hurt our feelings.  I didn't want you, her or anyone else banned.  I wanted some bloody even-handed moderation.  We haven't been perfect on that here, but we try our best and I daresay we've done better than what Chatsubo's team was doing at that time period.

I don't like that Chatsubo 'died'.  That was never anyone's goal, certainly not mine or Silver Night's goal.  But it happened, and there's a clearly defined reason why.  All anyone has to do to find it is to go read the threads.

So now, we have a small group of people, a 'vocal minority' if you will, expressing discontent with the way we're approaching moderation here.  So, I posted this thread to open up discussion and see just how many people are feeling that way and talk about what we might need to do to fix whatever problems there might be while maintaining the atmosphere that everyone found so alluring and encouraging of participation in the beginning. 

[Jade Constantine]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not calling you a cry baby for setting this place up and trashing chatsubo Havohej (nor Silver Night either for that matter.)

But neither do I see it as some kind of ethical community minded generosity of spirit. It was what it was, an expression of frustration at not getting your way from the mods at Chatsubo and demonstration that you could destroy a thing (and thus had power over a thing after all.)

Doubtless to your mind Revan and I were the Devil and Consort and Cosmo a fool for permitting us to exist! (let alone post) but really, things were complicated and most complaints had many sides and many aspects as doubtless you have come to find in this place. As it happened I found it easy enough to transition here for a time and play within the rules, Stephanie decided not to. That was her choice as well.

But my point really is you decided to destroy the other forum because you couldn't influence Cosmo to have people banned at your whim and wanted a place to have that power for yourself. I don't really judge you on that, its natural for a man to want power - but I do respect people who come out and are honest about these things more than I do people who wrap it up in polite doubletalk and slithering snakery.

[Havohej]

You seem to have in your mind that we wanted to create an evil-er empire to supplant and destroy the incumbent evil empire.  This is simply not the case.  We never even viewed Chatsubo in that light.  I never wanted to see anything destroyed (except the Provibloc, IC, for IC reasons).

For the record, barring spammers who do get instant permabans, our actual ban list is very small.  There are a total of 46 threads in the Warnings and Bans area.  These threads are generated when a formal warning is issued to a user the first time.  All subsequent formal action regarding that user is logged in that same original thread under their name.  This is so that if we go to issue a warning to so-and-so, we go there to log that we've done so and can thus see how much formal action has taken place involving that poster, which tells us if escalation is needed or appropriate - or not.  Of these, very few have ever escalated to bans.  Of those, most were temp bans, in some cases multiple escalating temp bans.  In only 3 cases that I can see in the ban list, only 3, were permabans issued after a long series of moderations, warnings and temp bans.  Some people, like Mizhara for example, simply stopped participating after a temp ban, giving the appearance that a p.ban was issued where one was not.

46 people formally warned.  3 permanently banned.  Over the course of 4 years.  Out of a total 1067 member accounts.

Most of the people who post here are IC enemies for my character.  Several of the people who post here frequently I actively and openly dislike OOC.  I'm in this for power?  I wanted to see people banned at a whim?
 

[Jade Constantine]

I’m not sure debating on the basis of what you think might be in my mind is a recipe for fruitful conversation really. I can only respond to what you have said with regard to your belief that chatsubo needed to be (well, if not destroyed then humanely terminated or whatever) because of your perception that Cosmo and his mod team wouldn’t deal with myself and Revan for whatever reason. I said you wanted the power to ban at a whim Havohej (mainly because Cosmo denied you that power at Chatsubo) having the power is not the same as using it. Clearly you’ve been a benign overlord here! The point it you HAVE the power, not cosmo, that’s a pretty good safety blanket!

The thing is there is a bit of a blinkered view of what went down at Chatsubo and I think you are not immune to it. There reason I never got banned there – (as is the reason I’ve never been banned here) is that I generally play to the rules of the forum. Most of the reason that I got involved with some fairly toxic treads there was the way people would come at me (and also not get banned) I measured my interaction to threads based on just below the offense level of my enemies – it meant really nobody could get banned for those things. At Chatsubo people would call me names and I’d pull the rug out under them. At Backstage I never had to do that because the mods would terminate anyone for rudeness. I guess it show who could play by the rules of the game though.

You mention Miz and I’m glad because he was one of the worst flamers at Chatsubo but always blamed other people. At chatsubo he got away with it too because Cosmo was trying to be liberal and hands off. Here, I remember posting something fairly innocent and Mizhara rushing into the thread to flame me like he had a warrant to offend and getting moderated, he then proceeded to insult your mods and thrash about like a lunatic claiming bias. All I’d say is that perhaps your perception of what happened at Chatsubo was not particularly accurate with regard to true villains of the piece.

But anyway, we have our different opinions. What happened happened – and Backstage is now what’s left of the RP community for good or ill!

[Havohej]

I’m not sure debating on the basis of what you think might be in my mind is a recipe for fruitful conversation really.

I could say the same to you, because...

I can only respond to what you have said with regard to your belief that chatsubo needed to be (well, if not destroyed then humanely terminated or whatever) because of your perception that Cosmo and his mod team wouldn’t deal with myself and Revan for whatever reason.

I have never, ever stated any such belief.  You are attributing things to me, then, which you "think might be in my mind."  You are attacking a statement/argument that I never made.  The precise name of this logical fallacy eludes me at the moment, but I know it's covered in Hurley's.

I said you wanted the power to ban at a whim Havohej (mainly because Cosmo denied you that power at Chatsubo) having the power is not the same as using it. Clearly you’ve been a benign overlord here! The point it you HAVE the power, not cosmo, that’s a pretty good safety blanket!

No, I actually don't.  Our own rules bar us from using any manner of moderator privilege in threads we have been participants in.  So if all of that old garbage had taken place here, I still couldn't ban Revan.  Or you, for that matter, though I don't recall ever wanting to see you banned (because you were often posting either in defense of inappropriate shit directed toward you, OR in defense of inappropriate shit directed toward her - which was almost always brought on by her own behavior on that forum).  Because I was an active participant in those disputes and thus biased; any action I might've taken against you or her would've been reversed and my status as a moderator/admin removed.  In fact, I think there is a case of this happening on this forum already (a person joining the mod team and being removed for abuse).  I was in jail at the time, so I don't know all of the particulars of that - so I'll speak no more on it.  We've also made it pretty difficult to get banned here...  more difficult than I'd like, at times.

The thing is there is a bit of a blinkered view of what went down at Chatsubo and I think you are not immune to it. There reason I never got banned there – (as is the reason I’ve never been banned here) is that I generally play to the rules of the forum. Most of the reason that I got involved with some fairly toxic treads there was the way people would come at me (and also not get banned) I measured my interaction to threads based on just below the offense level of my enemies – it meant really nobody could get banned for those things. At Chatsubo people would call me names and I’d pull the rug out under them. At Backstage I never had to do that because the mods would terminate anyone for rudeness. I guess it show who could play by the rules of the game though.

You mention Miz and I’m glad because he was one of the worst flamers at Chatsubo but always blamed other people. At chatsubo he got away with it too because Cosmo was trying to be liberal and hands off. Here, I remember posting something fairly innocent and Mizhara rushing into the thread to flame me like he had a warrant to offend and getting moderated, he then proceeded to insult your mods and thrash about like a lunatic claiming bias. All I’d say is that perhaps your perception of what happened at Chatsubo was not particularly accurate with regard to true villains of the piece.

But anyway, we have our different opinions. What happened happened – and Backstage is now what’s left of the RP community for good or ill!

That's a fair view, and I mostly agree.  You have always played within the rules of the forum, be that forum the IGS, CAOD, IGS or Backstage.  And that's what this whole thread is about, really - Backstage's rules and whether or not they are still conducive to the atmosphere we intended for Backstage to have.

I forget who it was, Disraeli maybe, who said "It is the fault of our rhetoric that we cannot strongly state one point without seeming to belie some other."  I can see how it would seem or feel like I'm saying you and Revan were the only ones shitposting on Chatsubo.  I shitposted, too, and Miz, and countless others.  I'm sure a lot of people felt they were in the right or simply defending themselves or whatever.  I don't think anyone who was actively involved in any of the dramas that took place there can have a 100% accurate perception of who were "true villains."  I'd argue further that there were no "villains," per se, so much as an atmosphere where villainy was allowed to be.

But, yes.  What happened happened, and here we all are now.  I think our situation would be helped if there were more original content being produced, which in itself would spark more activity here, but the actual topic is whether we've still got an atmosphere conducive to it and if not, what tweaks might be made to get back to where we want to be - as a community of spaceship nerds and RP geeks.

For what it's worth (and this is a bit off-topic to the thread), I was thrilled when you started participating here and did so genuinely (unlike some, like Tomahawk, who at least at first seemed to come into it with the intention to push every envelope possible, actively trying to goad us into action to prove some kind of point or "expose" us and our supposed ulterior motives).  I'm just sad that Eve has changed in ways that made it no longer fun for you to keep doing your thing in New Eden.  I wish I had the time and the effort in me to build something remotely close to what Star Fraction was and represented.

[Lyn Farel]

There are a lot of good insight in that thread.

I also found myself wondering where it started to be more about YDIW than just lack of respect/inflammatory stuff. Suddenly we started to see moderator comments either on warnings or catacombed posts with the dreaded YDIW stamp on them. The YDIW almost became a backstage meme all by itself. Everyone started to call on everyone that they were guilty of telling people YDIW.

Then yet we still have Silver above that maintains that you can express that precise thing as long as you remain calm, constructive, and respectful. Maybe one of the biggest issues is a bit on the formal side of the moderation in such cases. Maybe the reason invoked for moderation should not be the YDIW stamp. Why the hell are we even always summoning the almighty YDIW ? It's not even in the damn rules !

Where the hell does that thing comes from ? Maybe there is indeed a climate of criticism averse. What the hell is wrong with criticism, as long as it proves constructive and can eventually bear fruit and lead to improvement ? I am unsure where it came from, but I have my little idea. It probably naturally came from a will not to divide or stir up things in a community that was already small. So the first thought was probably "let's not be elitists shall we" ? Well, that's a decent argument I guess. I will certainly not agree with it since acceptation of cheese and rubbish is the culture of mediocrity over quality. It is also the acceptance of every kind of individualism and selfishness over the community.

It is natural for roleplayers in any kind of community of roleplayers I have been to be very averse of being seen as elitist assholes. I have been part of the core admins of a very successful RP community on SWG before, and we brought it to unequaled heights with such an elitist culture. We proved to be very friendly to newcomers (we were not numerous either), and were damn motivated to do awesome things. But we were seen as elitist assholes. And you know why ? Because some trolls in our ranks were unable to behave and constantly shat on every forum they could, and every other group of RPers they found, deeming them stupid, cheesy, rubbish, and treating them like sub roleplayers. We sure could find a lot of critics to address most of those, but the simple way they handled it completely thrashed the reputation of our community over the years, with entrenched wars between us and the "others" on every forum and every channel ingame. And at the same time, the guild I was the leader of, also basked into a damn elitist ideal, holding the Canon as sacred before all else. We were seen as crazy elitists, but people respected us. Some outsiders even admired what we did while acknowledging that it was not for them. And why ? Because the trolls and shitposters of the RP community were not in our ranks. Even with our strict and public adherence to that elitist RP community, we were seen in a complete different light than the community itself.

It's he same everywhere I go.

So, with my experience backing me up all along - and I expect that some of you might have different experiences leading to opposite views, that's really possible - I am all for YDIW stuff. But there seems to be a grave confusion between calling people out for YDIW and thrashing people (and Vince post on that blooder character thing was NOT thrashing, just borderline, as surprising as it may sound coming from me, can elaborate on that if you want).

So, all in all, what has become nefarious is not over moderation against your basic grain of civilization and education, but over moderation (or just moderation, period) against YDIW, also perceived as political correctness by some.

[Morwen Lagann]

Some people, like Mizhara for example, simply stopped participating after a temp ban, giving the appearance that a p.ban was issued where one was not.

You mention Miz and I’m glad because ...

FWIW, the reason Miz stopped posting was not actually that initial temp ban (he had several over the course of several years), it was that he came back on another account after an extended break, he immediately started posting in exactly the same problematic fashion as he had been posting before he left, and when the moderation team gave him a warning - and pointed out that his new account was not going to be considered a 'reset' on his record - he flipped his shit and ragequit. (I've said it a few times over the years in a variety of threads, but as a reminder, mods/admins DO see the IP address you use to post here, and we do make note of it if there's problematic behavior coming from multiple accounts at one IP address. No, before anyone suggests it, we don't use it for anything but admin/moderation-related stuff on the forum.)

Lyn: YDIW is not in the rules but it is in the FAQ, which outlines good and bad posting habits. It's close enough for the moderators' purposes, because people are supposed to read both. And as I said before, yes, I totally agree that of late there is a very criticism-averse culture on this forum and like others, I believe it is more stifling than people getting their feelings hurt because someone said their Force-wielding fairy or w/e doesn't fit within the EVE universe. (Generally, full +1 to each point in that post. Seriously.) I made a small number of posts regarding better/worse ways to tell someone they are doing it wrong in the Hubris thread, for what it's worth. I think they're worth pointing out again, but some may disagree.

[Vikarion]

As a note, I was in on some of the early conversations that led to the creation of Backstage (almost completely as a passive observer) and the idea that Backstage was founded to kill Chatsubo is bullshit. In fact, one of the earliest presumptions was that we might get, at best, ten or twenty people who were tired of Chatsubo. And yeah, a LOT of the people who came over did so because Cosmo and company really did seem to moderate in favor of Star Fraction members plus Revan. Hey, it was a site made by a SF member. But I know I was tired of it, and I know others were.

No one I know was elated by Chatsubo going inactive. The most egregious statements were along the lines of "well, what did they expect, with their moderation policy?"

But I think that one reason Chatsubo did go inactive was partly because of what it was: a SF-held site. SF was pretty much opposed to a lot of loyalist or pirate RP, and a lot of the most active RPers at the time were pretty tired of being told that they were RL fascists or authoritarians or whatever because they liked creating loyalist characters and content. And it seemed like, at the end, almost every thread was becoming an arena for doing that.

If you alienate those who create content, don't be surprised that they find another - heh - forum within which to operate.

[Morwen Lagann]

Also, while I'm thinking of it.

Jade, fwiw I cannot recall a single case where Revan actually had any serious run-ins with the posting rules here while she was actively posting (edit - since she has no entry in the aforementioned warnings/bans section, I'm still inclined to think this is the case). She might have had a few posts catacombed in tangents or threads that got nuked wholesale, but I don't remember her ever being moderated in specific. (I could always be wrong - the Catacombs don't lie.)

[Lyn Farel]

Yes, for what it's worth I had full access to the smoke filled room as well and as much as was not including myself in these precise discussions (happening on the AFC forums), despite the voluntary conspiracy atmosphere it had, the almost frenetic talks were really done out of grand ideals and a will to salvage the situation on chatsubo, which was apparently not good at all.

It was a very small assembly of individuals that could be counted on the fingers of a single hand, or something close to it.

That's what I remember of all of it. But the thing the most outstanding was the feeling of emergency to create the alternative rather quickly.

[Ché Biko]

I think it may be a problem of enforcement. Due to the way we handle things like warnings and bans, and the asynchronous nature of forum communication, what can often end up happening is a post gets moderated, but the person who posted (often in a situation where a warning or ban should clearly be issued, like when someone starts their post with 'I know this is going to be moderated' and proceeds to post anyway) doesn't receive any other punitive action to dissuade them in the future because mod discussion of issuing a warning or ban ends up taking too long, or one of us drops off the internet for a while or what have you. We could do a better job with consistency in making sure bans and warnings are handed out, basically. Even if people aren't convinced to stop posting the 'really bad' sorts of post, they would eventually get banned anyway (which is how it is supposed to work).

If I get this right...the reason there might be a problem of enforcement is not a shortage of moderators? In fact, more moderators would only amplify the problem?

About the Catacombs: I was sort of in favour of removing them, even though I check out every moderated post dumped there. But after reading some of the arguments here, I'm fine with them staying as they are. And I also think it serves as somewhat of a shaming place for bad posters. And it allows me to get to know people a little better when I can also see their darker sides. And it makes discussing moderation a lot easier.

On criticism-averseness and overly thin skins...I'm guess I'm not sure what people are referring to here, in the sense that this is a moderation problem (I'm sure that the thin-skins frequent this forum too, sometimes I'm one of them). Are there any critical posts someone could link me (in a PM, if desired), where stuff was modded not because it broke the rules, but because someone's feelings were/might have been hurt?
Speaking for myself, I don't have a lot of trouble in properly formulating my critique in a way that does not break the rules. I don't think there's one post in the catacombs that's mine and was moderated for bad behaviour on my part. Don't get me wrong, the rules are a bit restrictive, and even I, a pretty polite guy, have to sometimes alter my post a bit before I click 'Post' to comply with the rules, even though I don't think people would really get offended by what I wrote, but I'm ok with that. But that's a matter of personal taste, and I can see why others find it (a tad) too restrictive.

On Silver's Go-back-2-Chatsubo comment: I can see why some people see it violating Wheaton's Law, but I can also see that the comment in question might not have been maliciously intended, and Silver's "Use chatsubo ≠ stop using Backstage" rings true in my mind. Even if using chatsubo is not a valid suggestion, I doubt it was meant to mean "leave our community and wander the desert".
But then again, maybe I just don't know Silver as well as you people. vOv

In most cases, people have been good enough to provide assistance after the feeding frenzy. [..] RP in EVE seems to have gone from public gatherings to small insular groups that keep to themselves and either afraid to or have no interest in trying to interact with other groups...and I believe much of this is in thanks to CPP and the recent ingame events have reinforced these divides between groups.

It would be even better if they had the guts to stick their hand into the sharktank during the feeding frenzy, but I think people might be afraid of losing that hand in the process.
I believe that people might also keep to themselves because else they fear being accused of uncharacteristicly being friends with everyone.
These are just some nearly baseless theories. Feel free to ignore them. No skin will be hurt. Well, not mine, anyway.

I also found myself wondering where it started to be more about YDIW than just lack of respect/inflammatory stuff. Suddenly we started to see moderator comments either on warnings or catacombed posts with the dreaded YDIW stamp on them. The YDIW almost became a backstage meme all by itself.

Woops. I think I may have had a hand in that. Although I called it The Community Meme. Or maybe it's not the same thing and I'm just pointlessly shoving my own old posts back into your faces.

It is natural for roleplayers in any kind of community of roleplayers I have been to be very averse of being seen as elitist assholes.

Hmm. But how to do this in a game where the default character IS an elitist asshole?

P.S. Vince, I never figured out what series that pic is from, the one above my meme post I linked to.

Also, just an observation, but there have not been a lot of new post in the Welcome section lately.

[Morwen Lagann]

Che: In my case, I am suggesting that it is a problem on both fronts. The posters are part of the problem because many are happy to resort to reporting posts simply because they disagree with them (or others) regardless of how constructive the criticism is (or isn't). On our end, I think that in the past we may have catered a little too much to that behavior or given the impression that even the slightest amount of YDIW would get a post moderated or was worth reporting. It shouldn't, and it isn't - there's a reason I re-linked my posts about it from the Hubris thread.

People need to be more receptive of criticism in general, at least criticism that is constructive and within a certain range of politeness. Obviously nobody should have to tolerate a wall of "omg you suck so bad biomass and quit eve already". But I don't think we should stamp on the perfectly legitimate criticism that "x trope is overdone, please don't do it" or "that doesn't work with the PF, big cluster or no" or "you're not going to get the responses you say you are looking for if you do it that way" in an overzealous attempt to stamp out what actually is problematic.