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Author Topic: I need some input from you kind wonderful folks.  (Read 9465 times)

Samira Kernher

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Re: I need some input from you kind wonderful folks.
« Reply #60 on: 10 Mar 2014, 03:00 »

On the OP:

If you haven't already, I recommend reading the scientific article on jumpgates for ideas.

Personally I prefer the idea of simply appearing at the intended destination, just years after the intended arrival time. That seems scientificially plausible to me and offers an interesting 'in' for RP (the ship's clocks read X time and the crew believes they arrived on schedule, but for everyone else years have passed since the ship disappeared).

Alternatively, the original clone being written off as dead and a new one activating. That's the simplest way of bringing the character back without touching on anything controversial.

If you do go with crazy stuff ideas, then I suggest keeping it vague and let there be no actual concrete evidence. The character can claim that this and that happened but can't prove it. This leaves it open-ended as to whether it actually happened or simply insanity, thus stepping on no one's immersion toes or CCP's lore. Nothing wrong with a little bit of eldritch horror, just needs to be handled carefully.
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V. Gesakaarin

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Re: I need some input from you kind wonderful folks.
« Reply #61 on: 10 Mar 2014, 04:07 »

I think you are missing part of my point, here. This bitterness about how others act in public that you and Veik are both mentioning, though from different perspectives, is part of what I am referring to as the solipsistic problem. The community no longer consists of people that roleplay exactly the way you want, with characters you want them to - thus everyone is either derpy or rude?

Bitterness and self-righteous cynicism is no less solipsistic than those who are being "rude" or committing nothing but "tenuous public interactions". There is a glass house here and you two folks are whipping rocks all over the damned place.

A glass house would exist if I honestly gave a shit anymore about what people think of my character. I don't. Neither do I care too much about other characters by and large. There's no rule that I have to engage in public interactions, especially when I find those public interactions by and large particularly onerous, and uninteresting if not just contrived bullshit. As far as I can see, the people that enjoy public RP can feel free to go right ahead and enjoy it.

I've recused myself from it, and established my own walls of non-participation because I personally don't enjoy it, and frankly when I've already given it an honest shot and all that I got was drama and bullshit, then I certainly don't feel like I'm sitting in a glass house.
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Saede Riordan

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Re: I need some input from you kind wonderful folks.
« Reply #62 on: 10 Mar 2014, 04:09 »

Quote
If you do go with crazy stuff ideas, then I suggest keeping it vague and let there be no actual concrete evidence. The character can claim that this and that happened but can't prove it. This leaves it open-ended as to whether it actually happened or simply insanity, thus stepping on no one's immersion toes or CCP's lore. Nothing wrong with a little bit of eldritch horror, just needs to be handled carefully.

Oh yeah, you have to play it really subtly.
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Publius Valerius

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Re: I need some input from you kind wonderful folks.
« Reply #63 on: 10 Mar 2014, 04:54 »

It was my impression that this was part of the point of Source - hence the title. Recognition of their past incongruity and releasing the definitive.

Ehm... I guess that will be the case. Source (1), Books (2), Chronicles (3), Wiki (4). As for me the wiki was the best source to toy around with ideas, so it had come first for me (and the tonyg books last***). As things can be added and adjust, but nevermind. As I said I roll with everything.

On that topic. For me bloodlines hadnt play that of a role, way more the caste; and/or class in other societies (like Upper-management in the State, have I saw as equal-ish.). As I mention here and here. Or in other words... if someone is holder (1) was more important for me as if someone is True Amarr (2) (I dont think this is a Kingdom thingy, as I can thing some few Empire RPers have roll that way too).


Quote
Source Book:
True Amarr are held aloft by the rest of the Amarr society, viewed as secret paragons of piety. Other bloodlines are forever tainted by the sin of their ancestors (is not mention was the sin is... I guess being not True Amarr?), no matter how pious, no matter how fervent and faithful, they will never match the unstained purity of the True Amarr.
[...]
Regardless, everyone born in the empire has one thing in common; a constant reinforcement of religion, the natural order of True Amarr (1) and holders (2) on top.

Sorry to go off topic. :( I had roll actually that my/our House has True Amarr slaves. For diverent reasons, some are just criminals other fall into slavery (stupidity!?), but the many junk was POWs from the Khanid-Amarr war. The so call "time of open warfare". Ehm... Now Im thinking to let them go, if I come back. "As True Amarr and Holders are on top." It would great to have an arc with some of the Amarr RP-guys.

I mean, I cant just let those old prisoners of war free. They will try to kill me/us for what I/we had done. Or lets say, If even just one would try to kill me after I had free him, It would be one to much. ;) So I think about killing them and send the corps to a Amarr RP Corp. I could think that I send in a ceremony the corpse to PIE (for example). And they could bring them to rest in a traditional way. Would be great to hear what some of PIE would think of this... or how they would like things to go... Like what ships should be use... etc...



_________
**** or a State megacorp CEO, or a very rich gallente in the Federation, etc....
*** I see Abraxes work more as a summery of New Eden, and not as something which should move the storyline forward. So I dont mind him dragging us (the reader) through all the factions. As I mention ones here before (to lazy to search). I dont mind him having not a good three act structure, but rather a split along the faction; as his goal is to describe and not to move the plot forward. As for TonyG is it the other way around... He should had work more with a three act structure (no flashbacks, etc...), and rather eject minor plot points, and characters, even factions, as it more about the plot then describing. But off topic.
« Last Edit: 10 Mar 2014, 05:41 by Publius Valerius »
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Nicoletta Mithra

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Re: I need some input from you kind wonderful folks.
« Reply #64 on: 10 Mar 2014, 06:11 »

It is funny that youn mention the Aura chronicles, Samira, which state the special veneration poets receive in Amarr society. Yes, Excena Foer got into trouble.

But that's not the point: Itzak Barah was supposedly a religious poet. That entire profession of religious poetry is based on restating religious truths with differing, artistic words. They were by PF previous to EVE: Source highly valued members of Amarr culture exactly for this particular ability. This went so far that he had the authority to authorize Excena Foer's version even against the majorities whishes that were a-sympathetic to a non-believer doing what Itzak's profession does.

So, the problem can't have been, previous to EVE: Source, that she was restating religious truth. The problem must have been a non-believer doing it. Else Itzak Barah would have been guilty of the same thing. Now E:S is stating that Amarr have a strong preference for strictly visual arts, to the point that:
Quote from: EVE: Source
art and beauty lie in the visual depictions of the truths that have already been recorded in words, rather than trying to rephrase those truths in different words. Indeed, it appears that the general feeling is that any attempt to do so would not only be useless but also rather unseemly - if not outright sacrilegous.
(emphasis added by me)

Now, this really disqualifies the previously celebrated profession of the religious poet. It is also producing an unnecessary, previously not existing clash between PF. And even if E:S is to be considered authoritative, then this newly established fact has been set in stone by malpractice of writing, tbh, as it'd be a retcon for no appearent reason at all.

It does, by the way, also disqualify all Scriptural theology, as this is, by necessity, rephrasing of religious truth, just not (necessarily) artistically, but rather scholarly. The same goes for religious education. Both instances are explaining religious text and explaining means (amongst other things) rephrasing the meaning of the text (the 'truths') in different words than the text uses by itself.

Now, the Dark Horse site says: "Developed in close collaboration with the EVE and DUST 514 creative teams,..." If that is true, it can't be entirely true that Dark Horse is merely the publisher. Anyway, that Falcon said to you in a personal convo that E:S takes precedence is really of no concern in regard to whether it is a good idea to take E:S as authoritative. I think there are many good reasons to take it - just like TonyG's literature - cum grano salis.

As to the book mainly summarizing and repeating what was established for the Amarr and that being no problem, I agree wholeheartedly. I didn't count, but I'd guess I find nothing wrong with 90% of the sentences in the book and the artwork is stunning. And it's good for you that you are happy with what they wrote- that doesn't mean that it's not partly malpractice in writing for a world that should be qualified by consistence, coherence and continuity. But a book that is 90% summary and repeat, 10% changes and new things and of these 5% are unnecessary changes to the PF that come totally out of the blue or stuff that unnecessarily breaks down the dimensionality of the setting, isn't a book I can be happy with.

And I'm not alone with that assessment. We didn't accept what we got from TonyG and I don't see any reason to do so any more with the stuff in E:S if it's TonyG-esque.
« Last Edit: 10 Mar 2014, 06:15 by Nicoletta Mithra »
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Shiori

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Re: I need some input from you kind wonderful folks.
« Reply #65 on: 10 Mar 2014, 06:33 »

We reject this dumb reality and substitute our own.
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V. Gesakaarin

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Re: I need some input from you kind wonderful folks.
« Reply #66 on: 10 Mar 2014, 07:13 »

I'm asking myself what's the actual point of putting PF up on Evelopedia anymore. The 100% accessible to all resource is essentially considered to be retconnable at any time not only by Eve: Source, but by any purchased sourcebook that may be released in future. So I guess more monies is preferrable to having a consistent resource that anyone can look up and access.
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Publius Valerius

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Re: I need some input from you kind wonderful folks.
« Reply #67 on: 10 Mar 2014, 07:35 »

I'm asking myself what's the actual point of putting PF up on Evelopedia anymore. The 100% accessible to all resource is essentially considered to be retconnable at any time not only by Eve: Source, but by any purchased sourcebook that may be released in future. So I guess more monies is preferrable to having a consistent resource that anyone can look up and access.

I think this is also CCP stand. As it has been a long time since a page got updated or one from CCP had left a comment on a page (I think is almost a year now). So I think, as you mention, that they will go in the future with the Book way.

Another example would be the latest chron from Abraxes which even hadnt made its way to the EVElopdia (I had to bring it over :( ), as well as not on the EVE Chronicles Portal.

As you said. It is bad for monetization, as the wiki is 100% free. As well as you can put on a book a "PG-13" or "FSK-12" logo, and get all the legal stuff out of the way (as for the wiki you needed a page before "the page" which ask you like the dust page: How old you are?).

As for the ranking: Source, Books, Chrons, Wiki.... What come before what.. I actually dont care... As you mention "having a consistent resource" is more importent. As for me where this consistency comes from I dont care. I actually even think... they should put that stuff ingame (like swtor did with the codex), but this is like the immersion project out of order. So I dont care. As I said I roll with everything. As well as I have come more into the space opera mood. :P I dont mean it negative...

Edit: I see it more the old treky way: A science fiction writer has to respect science... or you will end up like Star Trek Voyager. :lol: I think that was a major problem for many people... Like: SF Debris, which I agree, I really like his reviews. But I also have to say... Voyager was sci-fi fantasy. This is a transition which I have to do with EVE. Currently Im still to deep in the sci-fi mood.
« Last Edit: 10 Mar 2014, 08:10 by Publius Valerius »
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V. Gesakaarin

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Re: I need some input from you kind wonderful folks.
« Reply #68 on: 10 Mar 2014, 07:53 »

I think this is also CCP stand. As it has been a long time since a page got updated or one from CCP had left a comment on a page (I think is almost a year now). So I think, as you mention, that they will go in the future with the Book way.

Another example would be the latest chron from Abraxes which even hadnt made its way to the EVElopdia (I had to bring it over :( ), as well as not on the EVE Chronicles Portal.

As you said. It is bad for monetization, as the wiki is 100% free. As well as you can put on a book a "PG-13" or "FSK-12" logo, and get all the legal stuff out of the way (as for the wiki you needed a page before "the page" which ask you like the dust page: How old you are?).

As for the ranking: Source, Books, Chrons, Wiki.... What come before what.. I actually dont care... As you mention "having a consistent resource" is more importent. As for me where this consistency comes from I dont care. I actually even think... they should put that stuff ingame (like swtor did with the codex), but this is like the immersion project out of order. So I dont care.

I think for me it's a situation that might develop such as:

Player A uses Evelopedia resources for their character and fiction.

Player B points out contradictions to Player A between their Evelopedia material and the E:S material.

Player A asks, "So now I've got to pay just to have access to the actual lore in Eve?"

I don't feel that's a good direction to go because this isn't a tabletop setting where you can show people nearby quickly in your sourcebook something specific lore-wise. If the lore is shifted OOG, how are people supposed to access that quickly in an MMO setting for reference and the like to each other?
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Publius Valerius

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Re: I need some input from you kind wonderful folks.
« Reply #69 on: 10 Mar 2014, 08:01 »

I think this is also CCP stand. As it has been a long time since a page got updated or one from CCP had left a comment on a page (I think is almost a year now). So I think, as you mention, that they will go in the future with the Book way.

Another example would be the latest chron from Abraxes which even hadnt made its way to the EVElopdia (I had to bring it over :( ), as well as not on the EVE Chronicles Portal.

As you said. It is bad for monetization, as the wiki is 100% free. As well as you can put on a book a "PG-13" or "FSK-12" logo, and get all the legal stuff out of the way (as for the wiki you needed a page before "the page" which ask you like the dust page: How old you are?).

As for the ranking: Source, Books, Chrons, Wiki.... What come before what.. I actually dont care... As you mention "having a consistent resource" is more importent. As for me where this consistency comes from I dont care. I actually even think... they should put that stuff ingame (like swtor did with the codex), but this is like the immersion project out of order. So I dont care. As I said I roll with everything. As well as I have come more into the space opera mood. :P I dont mean it negative...

Edit: I see it more the old treky way: A science fiction writer has to respect science... or you will end up like Star Trek Voyager. :lol: I think that was a major problem for many people... Like: SF Debris, which I agree, I really like his reviews. But I also have to say... Voyager was sci-fi fantasy. This is a transition which I have to do with EVE. Currently Im still to deep in the sci-fi mood.

I think for me it's a situation that might develop such as:

Player A uses Evelopedia resources for their character and fiction.

Player B points out contradictions to Player A between their Evelopedia material and the E:S material.

Player A asks, "So now I've got to pay just to have access to the actual lore in Eve?"

I don't feel that's a good direction to go because this isn't a tabletop setting where you can show people nearby quickly in your sourcebook something specific lore-wise. If the lore is shifted OOG, how are people supposed to access that quickly in an MMO setting for reference and the like to each other?

Ehm. I agree... there should be a consistency. But as I mention above: "As for me: Where this consistency comes from I dont care." Example: If CCP says tomorrow... Tony G books first--as they had come first--after that the source, or the other way around. I dont care. I just care that there is a ordnial order, how this will look like I dont care.***


As for the second part....
"If the lore is shifted OOG, how are people supposed to access that quickly in an MMO setting for reference and the like to each other?"

As I mention above: They should put that stuff ingame (like swtor did with the codex), but this is like the immersion project out of order. So this thing is long gone... and dead by now. And we have to face the reality.



_________
Edit: ***As I have truthfully no saying about it. And I would think any argument, which I would bring forward would be ignore (as Im not be seen as a customer by CCP. Long Story.)  ;) As well as that sci-fi fantasy is the way I have to watch and enjoy EVE. As mention here and before, the problem is ME. I have to rethink stuff: How I see it, and what MY errors were in the past.
« Last Edit: 10 Mar 2014, 08:18 by Publius Valerius »
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Jace

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Re: I need some input from you kind wonderful folks.
« Reply #70 on: 10 Mar 2014, 08:48 »

And I'm not alone with that assessment. We didn't accept what we got from TonyG and I don't see any reason to do so any more with the stuff in E:S if it's TonyG-esque.

Sami's quote of Falcon can't be any clearer, Mithra. And he has said this elsewhere, not just in private convos to her. "EVE: Source is intended to be the basic "bible" for prime fiction going forward."

And as far as not "accepting" what we got from TonyG? People ignored the contradictions they had to deal with when he directly contradicted previous Chronicles. But the rest was still, and still is, PF - as long as it doesn't contradict Source.

This is one of those situations were CCP has made it clear what direction they are going. For better or worse.

Edit: And if you want something alongside what Falcon said for some reason, from the introduction of Source:
Quote
this book aims to capture a moment in time, the world as it is in the year AD 23351
(emphasis mine)
« Last Edit: 10 Mar 2014, 09:33 by Jace »
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Jace

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Re: I need some input from you kind wonderful folks.
« Reply #71 on: 10 Mar 2014, 08:52 »

A glass house would exist if I honestly gave a shit anymore about what people think of my character. I don't. Neither do I care too much about other characters by and large. There's no rule that I have to engage in public interactions, especially when I find those public interactions by and large particularly onerous, and uninteresting if not just contrived bullshit. As far as I can see, the people that enjoy public RP can feel free to go right ahead and enjoy it.

I've recused myself from it, and established my own walls of non-participation because I personally don't enjoy it, and frankly when I've already given it an honest shot and all that I got was drama and bullshit, then I certainly don't feel like I'm sitting in a glass house.

Obviously, you can play how you wish and enjoy what you wish. My point was simply that most of the excuses people have for bitterly separating themselves from RP can easily be, and often should be, attributed to them.
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Shiori

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Re: I need some input from you kind wonderful folks.
« Reply #72 on: 10 Mar 2014, 08:58 »

It´s currently fashionable to be unfashionable, and so serpents have been developing a deep appreciation of the tastes of their own tails.
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Nicoletta Mithra

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Re: I need some input from you kind wonderful folks.
« Reply #73 on: 10 Mar 2014, 10:11 »

Sami's quote of Falcon can't be any clearer, Mithra. And he has said this elsewhere, not just in private convos to her. "[...]
Edit: And if you want something alongside what Falcon said for some reason, from the introduction of Source:
Quote
this book aims to capture a moment in time, the world as it is in the year AD 23351
(emphasis mine)
(added emphasis)

Now, If I wasn't clear previously, I don't care what Falcon said or didn't say, whether publicly, privately or wherever else. It's really of no concern in regard to whether E:S is done well or not. Gesakaarin pinted out quite well why it is a really bad idea - next to malpractice in writing. They aimed and missed. And is this to say that the chronicles didn't aim to portray the world of EVE as it is? <,<

So, yah, I prefer to suffer my own dumbness and not the one of other: The former one I have to suffer any way, but at least it is free. All I get from suffering the dumbness of E:S is that I suffer more and pay for it. No thanks.
« Last Edit: 10 Mar 2014, 10:17 by Nicoletta Mithra »
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Samira Kernher

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Re: I need some input from you kind wonderful folks.
« Reply #74 on: 10 Mar 2014, 10:29 »

People are assuming that EVElopedia is static, when the reality is that it will likely be updated to take into account the information provided in EVE Source. Buying the book is not buying exclusive access to lore, it is buying early access to it.

And I'm fully in favor of paying for it if it means that money is funding lore development. It's a better use of my money than paying two months of subscription, which is the price of the book.


By the way, there's a lot of derailing going on here. Most of these discussions should be split off.
« Last Edit: 10 Mar 2014, 10:36 by Samira Kernher »
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