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[Jace]

No problem, I know how it goes.  I think the reason you don't often get news lore in some games is because of high volume content.  WoW, for instance, has a minor content injection every single major patch instead of every expansion, so the game's usually got something new going on every few months that adds to it.  When they dropped the Siege of Orgrimmar raid set for 5.4 in September, we also got a new PVE area to wrap up some of the story threads, a major change to one of the existing MOP zones, and a couple game re-balance shifts.  One of the nice things about WoW being the colossal block of Jello that it is has to be the giant staff that seems to be able to give us stuff to do between expansions.  Now, if only we could get a reliable rating system so we can keep people who don't know WTF they're doing out of LFR runs, I'd be pleased.

I guess my WoW experience has been a lot different as far as RP goes.  I don't keep up on forums, instead I tend to RP in game (you can walk around, so why not?)  So most of who I know in the game, I met in bars or on random dungeon runs.  I actually made a lot of friends recently running my biker gang.  I never had to worry about linear story stuff because we've always had other stuff to do and I'm not particularly interested in factional fighting (one of the other reasons EVE lore annoys me, of all the things to have in common with WoW, why multiple character factions, the hog-tie of storytelling?)  I ran IC raids for my Horde guild and the in-clan lore for that is rather extensive.  I can link the storyline as it stood when we kind of stopped running it, but it was a lot of fun having storytime in Thunder Bluff weekly.  Luckily, there was a lot of room to wiggle.  The Skulldance Clan was definitely a pro-Horde clan until Cataclysm, when we split off and RPed on our own for a while.  The last expansion was a lot of fun for us, though now we're all doing it as a sideline to our mains elsewhere.

Ahhhh, the fun of IC instancing and raiding.  Either way, until Cataclysm, I tended to avoid getting involved in the Horde/Alliance crap.  Luckily, there was always something else to do that we could apply to the story.

EVE doesn't really have that because so many areas of space are "owned".  It's easy to understand CCP not making more happen since stuff that "happens" doesn't usually matter in null, where they're pretty intent on focusing the game.  They can't do what other MMOs do and add new areas to go to that no one's ever seen before, the cluster's extents are visible.  They also can't really add many new factions and content to new areas because they'd either need to remove the empires from the relevant parts of highsec or remove the people living in lowsec, neither of which sound like they'd be popular.

What would they add that would be interesting but not fundamentally shift the game at this point?

But with all of that content you mention, despite its linearity which I can accept doesn't bother you but does me, none of it can be used ICly. No dungeon makes rational sense ICly. Everyone killed this guy? Then he respawned? You can't ICly put that into your character's story, because it just simply makes no sense, it would make their story incoherent. You couldn't walk around and talk to someone about how you killed Mr. Evil McOrc and how it was so tense and heroic, because well, they killed him to.

It is so incoherent story-wise for a character that it can't even be fixed with hand-wavium. And that's the problem with RP in most MMOs. They are specifically designed to set everyone up to be a MarySue. I killed the boss at the end of this huge dungeon. Well so did I! And me too! There is no coherent character story there. So you now by default have to detach your character from the world in which she lives just to have their story make any sense. So as far as RP goes, all of that "content" (dungeon, trash mobs, boss, repeat) is unusable for RP.

And yes, it is nice you can walk around in other games. But due to limitations of animation, don't be mistaken: it is still text-based RP.

And about your last question: I believe they should fundamentally shift the game and factions. Absolutely. Wars should happen, hisec systems should change hands for one reason or another. Is this possible? Probably not, but damned if it wouldn't be fun.

[Lyn Farel]

They actually regularly add new areas of space. Exodus, one of the first expansions, saw more nullsec space iirc. Then another one (Red Moon Rising or the first Revelations, don't remember well) added all the drone regions in nullsec. Then TEA that added Black Rise and rearranged low sec for FW. Then Apocrypha will the hundreds of wormhole space systems. Then... well, they stopped adding content a few expansions later so... Nothing new now.

But yes unfortunately it stays completely static once implemented. :/

Well, Jace, I didn't say you should band together to fight evil.  Maybe if gate camps every few minutes had to deal with roaming meteors, rabid pack drone attacks that jump through gates into highsec, running out of oxygen or fuel, DED finding out their real identity and shutting down their clone network, having to fence illicit goods that, if recognized, get their mule arrested or worse, electromagnetic storms, solar wind, ship degradation with all the good facilities in higher security space, or something of that nature, we wouldn't see so many people take it up.

As it stands, EVE is doing its best to encourage one particular kind of play even if they aren't threatening you with the army of darkness.  The universe isn't trying to kill anyone, makes it comparatively easy to play a prick, and then doesn't really reward you if you decide being a prick isn't your thing.  It's no less of a mold than something like WoW has; EVE is built to encourage that specific kind of play.  No giant soul-eating demons required.

I dislike the impetus to either jump into a null corp or faction warfare to get anywhere in the game, especially because the reasons for making us do this are kind of blatant (screw the rather idiotic way faction warfare gets handled, why are the research and manufacturing stations near the centers of learning, culture, and trade in highsec so much worse than the ones elsewhere?)

For all the complaints I have with WoW, and after seven years I have a few, the last one I'd have is a feeling of inflexibility.  If I want to PVP in WoW, I can play that as a gladiator in arenas, soldier in BGs, or I can just jump on an RPPVP server and let them try to kill me everywhere.  If I don't want to PVP, I can raid, run challenge dungeons, grind reps, run a pet combat team, set up for world bosses, whore achievements, or build professions.  I can roll all of that into RP if I want, or not.  WoW's biggest problem isn't making you into something, it's that there's so much for them to keep track of that tweaking something in the game affects a dozen other things where it would essentially form an exploit.

Well, that and heirlooms.  Worst thing that ever happened to the game.

I feel in the obligation to point you to that...

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

What is that distinction that everyone always do out of purely OOC manners between what people do and what they say ?

Saying something is doing something. Debating something is doing something. Convincing immortal capsuleers of something is certainly worth ten times in gold than just killing them to see them coming back the next minute.

Also, why would I take part in a gameplay that I strongly disagree with ? The gap between ingame and the actual lore and universe is so huge that what happens ingame doesn't mean anything at all to me. It's vain. And my character thinks the same way too btw. Doing otherwise would be totally nonsensical. I can still play the capsuleer demigod in either way.

Like in most MMOs actually. Most RPers ignore the game to actually play the lore rather than the - limited, poor, bland, bleached, and sometimes absurd or contradictory - gameplay. Sounds logical to me.

It is the notion that if your character isn't involved in game mechanics, then any activities they claim to be doing that could be represented in-game are not actually happening and your character is straight up lying.

That explanation aside, I largely agree with your reaction to it. I don't mind people being obsessed with game mechanics, everyone has their own method of playing and RPing. But I generally think that obsessing over a distinction between those that "do" and those that "talk" is yet another division in the RP scene we don't need. And possibly the most potentially divisive of them all.

Wait, I am certainly not speaking of characters claiming to be doing things that could be represented ingame. I share the same view than everybody on that : if you can do it ingame, then do it ingame. I never, ever, tried to replace something that could have been done ingame with pure fluff RP. Like the holy separation of OOC and IC - which a lot of people are unable to do - I always, always make sure that I keep RP ingame and pure fluff RP separated. And the latter is the kind of harmless RP you do outside of the game precisely because the game doesn't allow it. Like, you know, the most stupidest thing even : going at an opening ceremony, meeting someone else in his CQs or whatever. Oh, you still have the few die hards that go by "ONLY WHAT HAPPENS IN SPACE ACTUALLY HAPPENS". Well then, I guess our characters never go to the bathroom, never eat, never take a piss... Ah yes, I get it, it's all done in the capsule ! 

I just don't understand why some players are lambasted (actually, I do) for just enriching the RP world around without necessarily doing "important" stuff ingame. Other than telling people that they are doing it wrong, what's the point ? How does that even bother them ?

But yes, that is a new trend I have seen emerge the last years. It's the cult of the killboard (for which I have nothing but contempt) and "backing one's claims in space", whatever that even means. Because people got so fed up to see all the usual Mary Sues you see in every MMO claiming to be the soon of Tovil-Toba, Jamyl, having killed millions of enemy soldiers on foot, or whatever silliness, that they feel in the obligation to apply that principle to everyone not falling into the other extreme.

[Jace]

[...stuff...]

I just don't understand why some players are spit upon for just enriching the RP world around without necessarily doing "important" stuff ingame. Other than telling people that they are doing it wrong, what's the point ? How does that even bother them ?

But yes, that is a new trend I have seen emerge the last years. It's the cult of the killboard (for which I have nothing but contempt) and "backing one's claims in space", whatever that even means.

It is just the perspective that if it isn't something theoretically "meaningful" or a literal "action," it is somehow inferior and "just talk" since it isn't important enough to be reflected in game mechanics. Similar to a jock telling someone to "shut up or put up" in high school or something.

As I said, I find the trend to be unnecessarily divisive. But it is what it is, people can have whatever perception they wish.

[Vic Van Meter]

They actually regularly add new areas of space. Exodus, one of the first expansions, saw more nullsec space iirc. Then another one (Red Moon Rising or the first Revelations, don't remember well) added all the drone regions in nullsec. Then TEA that added Black Rise and rearranged low sec for FW. Then Apocrypha will the hundreds of wormhole space systems. Then... well, they stopped adding content a few expansions later so... Nothing new now.

But yes unfortunately it stays completely static once implemented. :/

Well, Jace, I didn't say you should band together to fight evil.  Maybe if gate camps every few minutes had to deal with roaming meteors, rabid pack drone attacks that jump through gates into highsec, running out of oxygen or fuel, DED finding out their real identity and shutting down their clone network, having to fence illicit goods that, if recognized, get their mule arrested or worse, electromagnetic storms, solar wind, ship degradation with all the good facilities in higher security space, or something of that nature, we wouldn't see so many people take it up.

As it stands, EVE is doing its best to encourage one particular kind of play even if they aren't threatening you with the army of darkness.  The universe isn't trying to kill anyone, makes it comparatively easy to play a prick, and then doesn't really reward you if you decide being a prick isn't your thing.  It's no less of a mold than something like WoW has; EVE is built to encourage that specific kind of play.  No giant soul-eating demons required.

I dislike the impetus to either jump into a null corp or faction warfare to get anywhere in the game, especially because the reasons for making us do this are kind of blatant (screw the rather idiotic way faction warfare gets handled, why are the research and manufacturing stations near the centers of learning, culture, and trade in highsec so much worse than the ones elsewhere?)

For all the complaints I have with WoW, and after seven years I have a few, the last one I'd have is a feeling of inflexibility.  If I want to PVP in WoW, I can play that as a gladiator in arenas, soldier in BGs, or I can just jump on an RPPVP server and let them try to kill me everywhere.  If I don't want to PVP, I can raid, run challenge dungeons, grind reps, run a pet combat team, set up for world bosses, whore achievements, or build professions.  I can roll all of that into RP if I want, or not.  WoW's biggest problem isn't making you into something, it's that there's so much for them to keep track of that tweaking something in the game affects a dozen other things where it would essentially form an exploit.

Well, that and heirlooms.  Worst thing that ever happened to the game.

I feel in the obligation to point you to that...

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

What is that distinction that everyone always do out of purely OOC manners between what people do and what they say ?

Saying something is doing something. Debating something is doing something. Convincing immortal capsuleers of something is certainly worth ten times in gold than just killing them to see them coming back the next minute.

Also, why would I take part in a gameplay that I strongly disagree with ? The gap between ingame and the actual lore and universe is so huge that what happens ingame doesn't mean anything at all to me. It's vain. And my character thinks the same way too btw. Doing otherwise would be totally nonsensical. I can still play the capsuleer demigod in either way.

Like in most MMOs actually. Most RPers ignore the game to actually play the lore rather than the - limited, poor, bland, bleached, and sometimes absurd or contradictory - gameplay. Sounds logical to me.

It is the notion that if your character isn't involved in game mechanics, then any activities they claim to be doing that could be represented in-game are not actually happening and your character is straight up lying.

That explanation aside, I largely agree with your reaction to it. I don't mind people being obsessed with game mechanics, everyone has their own method of playing and RPing. But I generally think that obsessing over a distinction between those that "do" and those that "talk" is yet another division in the RP scene we don't need. And possibly the most potentially divisive of them all.

Wait, I am certainly not speaking of characters claiming to be doing things that could be represented ingame. I share the same view than everybody on that : if you can do it ingame, then do it ingame. I never, ever, tried to replace something that could have been done ingame with pure fluff RP. Like the holy separation of OOC and IC - which a lot of people are unable to do - I always, always make sure that I keep RP ingame and pure fluff RP separated. And the latter is the kind of harmless RP you do outside of the game precisely because the game doesn't allow it. Like, you know, the most stupidest thing even : going at an opening ceremony, meeting someone else in his CQs or whatever. Oh, you still have the few die hards that go by "ONLY WHAT HAPPENS IN SPACE ACTUALLY HAPPENS". Well then, I guess our characters never go to the bathroom, never eat, never take a piss... Ah yes, I get it, it's all done in the capsule ! 

I just don't understand why some players are lambasted (actually, I do) for just enriching the RP world around without necessarily doing "important" stuff ingame. Other than telling people that they are doing it wrong, what's the point ? How does that even bother them ?

But yes, that is a new trend I have seen emerge the last years. It's the cult of the killboard (for which I have nothing but contempt) and "backing one's claims in space", whatever that even means. Because people got so fed up to see all the usual Mary Sues you see in every MMO claiming to be the soon of Tovil-Toba, Jamyl, having killed millions of enemy soldiers on foot, or whatever silliness, that they feel in the obligation to apply that principle to everyone not falling into the other extreme.

Two things about this, first being thanks for letting me know space has expanded.  I don't know many people who've been in the game since 2009, so this is the first time hearing space used to be smaller.  Who knows, maybe more intrinsically dangerous places will pop up.

Mostly I kind of hope that because my second point is that that list is weird.  It would be like putting together a list of things to do in WoW and saying, "Heal.." then listing all the classes and specs.  Yeah, they're technically very different to play, but realistically it falls under a general heading of PVE.  More to the point, one tends to involve the other.  If you feel like burying your face into high level cosmic anomalies, you're going to be in a PVP fit because the most dangerous thing in the area is whatever capsuleer corp owns the space.

Almost makes me want to see a list like that for Shadowrun.  Say what you want about it, decking and rigging might as well have been in different games, but they went together so well.  I wonder if someone will ever make more than that crap iso browser game for it.  It'd be the most ambitious game ever made.

[Jace]

Almost makes me want to see a list like that for Shadowrun.  Say what you want about it, decking and rigging might as well have been in different games, but they went together so well.  I wonder if someone will ever make more than that crap iso browser game for it.  It'd be the most ambitious game ever made.

I'd say not likely. With Cyberpunk coming and WoD coming, it seems that things are going in a different direction. Also, just fyi, I'm going to leave for a seminar soon so my next response to our main discussion will be delayed by a few hours.

[Lyn Farel]

Mostly I kind of hope that because my second point is that that list is weird.  It would be like putting together a list of things to do in WoW and saying, "Heal.." then listing all the classes and specs.  Yeah, they're technically very different to play, but realistically it falls under a general heading of PVE.  More to the point, one tends to involve the other.  If you feel like burying your face into high level cosmic anomalies, you're going to be in a PVP fit because the most dangerous thing in the area is whatever capsuleer corp owns the space.

Almost makes me want to see a list like that for Shadowrun.  Say what you want about it, decking and rigging might as well have been in different games, but they went together so well.  I wonder if someone will ever make more than that crap iso browser game for it.  It'd be the most ambitious game ever made.

I don't understand. I pointed at all that what can be done in Eve like you did for WoW : "In Wow I can do this, or that, or even this...". I don't see the difference... I would even say that the possibilities of different things to do in Eve are countless times more numerous than anywhere else, and the game is famous for that...

[Gaven Lok ri]

Mostly I kind of hope that because my second point is that that list is weird.  It would be like putting together a list of things to do in WoW and saying, "Heal.." then listing all the classes and specs.  Yeah, they're technically very different to play, but realistically it falls under a general heading of PVE.  More to the point, one tends to involve the other.  If you feel like burying your face into high level cosmic anomalies, you're going to be in a PVP fit because the most dangerous thing in the area is whatever capsuleer corp owns the space.

Almost makes me want to see a list like that for Shadowrun.  Say what you want about it, decking and rigging might as well have been in different games, but they went together so well.  I wonder if someone will ever make more than that crap iso browser game for it.  It'd be the most ambitious game ever made.

I don't understand. I pointed at all that what can be done in Eve like you did for WoW : "In Wow I can do this, or that, or even this...". I don't see the difference... I would even say that the possibilities of different things to do in Eve are countless times more numerous than anywhere else, and the game is famous for that...

This.

Also, I would find this critique more reasonable if the character Constantin actually interacted with the lore on Amarr (and Caldari and Minmatar, since he interacts with them) rather than fighting it at every turn.

EVE cultures are alien. We keep calling it grimdark, but that is missing the issue. The issue is that these cultures are alien and need to be treated as alien and different from modern cultures. What is considered "good" and "bad" is going to be completely different from modern ideas about the same. This is especially true with Amarr, which is the one I know, but I get the impression it is also true on the others.

If you think you could take Constantin and put him in any other light religion, to me that says that you haven't bothered situating him in the complexity of Amarr.

Now, its not really a problem for RP if people don't get into the lore, but play loosely off it, but it does result in characters going "this guy isn't really Amarr, but something else."

Could we use more lore, yes. Could the lore be better integrated into the game, yes. But it is extremely deep and there is a ton to play off of.

[Vic Van Meter]

Almost makes me want to see a list like that for Shadowrun.  Say what you want about it, decking and rigging might as well have been in different games, but they went together so well.  I wonder if someone will ever make more than that crap iso browser game for it.  It'd be the most ambitious game ever made.

I'd say not likely. With Cyberpunk coming and WoD coming, it seems that things are going in a different direction. Also, just fyi, I'm going to leave for a seminar soon so my next response to our main discussion will be delayed by a few hours.

No problem, I'm always unsure of when I'll be able to talk.  I'm not in a hurry.

Mostly I kind of hope that because my second point is that that list is weird.  It would be like putting together a list of things to do in WoW and saying, "Heal.." then listing all the classes and specs.  Yeah, they're technically very different to play, but realistically it falls under a general heading of PVE.  More to the point, one tends to involve the other.  If you feel like burying your face into high level cosmic anomalies, you're going to be in a PVP fit because the most dangerous thing in the area is whatever capsuleer corp owns the space.

Almost makes me want to see a list like that for Shadowrun.  Say what you want about it, decking and rigging might as well have been in different games, but they went together so well.  I wonder if someone will ever make more than that crap iso browser game for it.  It'd be the most ambitious game ever made.

I don't understand. I pointed at all that what can be done in Eve like you did for WoW : "In Wow I can do this, or that, or even this...". I don't see the difference... I would even say that the possibilities of different things to do in Eve are countless times more numerous than anywhere else, and the game is famous for that...

What I'm pointing out is that the metric used isn't what I'd call correct.  The list was actually one of the weirder things I've ever seen.  Reason I brought up WoW is because we're using it as the metric for MMOs, if you want I can switch to a different game to use as that metric.

Having said all that, the point is that the possibilities aren't really endless, a lot of those things are blended together, you can't do one without the other, it's the same thing in a different part of space, et cetera.

Probably the problem was that EVE was advertised as a fantastically difficult game with a vast universe.  The universe is certainly vast, but the main reason I came was because my brother was promising something REALLY hard.  Problem is that the game isn't hard, it's just another game with a PVP difficulty curve.  Unfortunately, that curve regulates just about everything to do in the game, which is a shame, because I think I was bored with the PVP difficulty curve concept by Battlefield 2.

Per a private comment I got, yes, I have problems with EVE, but I wouldn't call it a bad game.  I may sound like I hate it.  I don't, or I wouldn't bother sticking around to write about it.  It's definitely not what was advertised to me, but that might be because my brother wanted someone to play with my background and may have dosed up certain elements.  Part of the state and direction question does mean going over the stuff I like.  So, some things I do like about the EVE IP:

-Combat pacing.  I come from a long series of games where you have to make two-dozen decisions a minute for ten minutes.  What's refreshing about the game is that, once you're engaged, even in PVE it's a slower, more deliberate method of playing the game.  It makes it a bit more interesting to make decisions, since you'll have to know you need your armor repaired long before you're going critical, so you sometimes have to plan ahead in fights by several minutes.  I was a big fan of Final Fantasy Tactics when it came out, so I don't mind deliberate decision making you regret or have to make up for later.

-Variable combat style.  One thing I really do like about EVE, and where it's precisely as advertised, is how much control you have over the ships.  I'm still kind of mad I can't play with the paint layers or coloring, personalizing the outside, but one thing that hasn't disappointed me is the core mechanic of fitting a ship.  It's been decently fun to be able to personalize what I've got on my to what I like having on me, giving me pretty minute control over the handling of my ship.  I think that would be more fun if I wasn't constantly having to gear for other capsuleers and could run a more situational fit, but I don't have anything but praise for the ship and fitting mechanics themselves.  If I don't like how my ship handles or I want to try some piece of obscure equipment that I just trained for, I can.  The variety of possible equipment is a thing that, even with my high expectation of it, is exceeded.  It's very good.

-Mission running, to a point, is very entertaining.  One of my current problems is having to maintain my faction standing for the four empires when I run them, which is grating on my nerves because a large majority of the missions I take to raise one standing are running against another.  That's severely limited what I can do as far as empire missions go.  However, EVE seems to be able to do the "go here, do this, come back" thing on a small scale while keeping it relatively interesting, which is unfortunately not something I can say for most of the newer games coming out now.  I know I'm starting to run out of missions to run and I end up re-running old ones, but the enemies within those are at least keeping me somewhat on my toes.  I may not feel like it's the hardest game out there, but EVE PVE isn't a total cakewalk, especially on your own.

-Sansha incursions.  When I can get to them, these can be pretty awesome, and are sort of what I wish there was more of.  In a way, I wish the incursions really did spawn enemies to attack the station and do lasting damage in highsec we would have to repair on contract to the governments.  That'd be fun.  Or if the Sansha started actively hunting capsuleers in the area (at least I don't think they are, I've never had them warp in on me and I don't know much about them).  But being able to enter an area that actually acts like its under random attack is probably the most fun I've had in EVE.

-Skill system.  I don't have any complaints, really.  I don't get much time to play, it's nice to be progressing even when I'm playing something else.  This one speaks for itself and I don't think it's unpopular with anyone.  The certification system could be made a LOT easier to comprehend and access even now, but I think it's a good idea that makes the complexity of the skill system bearable.

-Enemy variety.  One thing I hate about WoW, once you've killed the same monsters, even raid bosses, a few hundred times, you need something new or you get bored.  EVE doesn't have that problem as much because the enemies have adaptable equipment.  Even if you've run something before, there's no guarantee you aren't going to get tracking disrupted this time through or suddenly have to deal with a shield tanker who suddenly pops up an armor repairer.  Though the overview is a fairly terrible way to track combat, I think that's just a UI problem.  A new UI later, and this would be pretty much perfect as far as keeping entertained through stock enemies.  I may gripe that I always know if I'm flying into something in EVE's PVE world, but I won't complain about always knowing what I'm flying into.  You don't always know what you're getting.

-Mission variety.  As I told Lyn, I wouldn't consider a shipping mission and a combat mission to be different elements of the game; they're both missions and essentially are part of the same piece of the game.  With that said, at least you know what you're getting when you get into one.  If I don't feel like shooting stuff, there are agents specifically devoted to not-shooting-stuff missions, and my shooting stuff mission agents almost always have me doing one thing, shooting stuff.  It's nice because, if I don't feel like shooting stuff, I know where to go, and when I feel like shooting stuff, there's a place to go for that.  Even within the missions, the aforementioned enemy variety and combat pace keep things variable, so there's at least stuff going on that requires that you pay attention.

-Construct designs.  I don't often get into this, but I really like Amarrian ships and their stations.  Half the reason I still fly an Amarrian ship, generally in Amarrian space, is I like it.  While I'm not a fan of the other ship/station types per-se, I can see why people might like those types of designs.  It's about the only statement of style we can make in space, so it's nice that we've got some options instead of having to pick the least-ugly.

-Music and graphical style.  I'm not sure how everyone else feels about this, but the music in EVE is amazing.  It really captures the emptiness, the loneliness, and yet somehow doesn't feel cold and bleepy.  Really, all the things I don't like about EVE are mechanical and social, I can't say I think EVE should look or sound different.  I kind of wish my cruiser lasers sounded a bit more like lasers, but I can't say I hate the sound they have.  I don't have a gripe with how the game looks on my screen and sounds in my speakers

-The RP community.  Despite how much I hate probably what might be considered your average EVE player (because almost everything said outside of you guys makes me want to put my head through the wall), I think I at least enjoy the people I talk to on the IGS and here.  My issues with the lore are many, and I don't think I'd be having fun RPing if people here weren't at least decent RPers.  You guys really are the only reason I'm still here.

I think I wouldn't be here complaining if I thought EVE was completely stupid or didn't have any promise, it can be interesting and I like certain portions of how it works.  Just saying, I'm not a complete hater.  I'm not the biggest fan of the lore and the emphasis on imperial and nullsec infighting is head-deskingly annoying to me.  A lot of the reason I have the revulsion to PVP games these days like the FPS games I was into is the nature of who I have to deal with on my own team, if not the people on the other side.  It all turns into just another curve to learn, nothing that feels new.

But it's not that it's NOT fun to play, it's good enough to keep me entertained for a few hours at a time a few days a week.  I do keep getting the feeling that, if I want to get harder or more distant targets, I have an eyeroll reaction because I'm going to be dealing more with capsuleer jackassery instead of the stuff I actually like in the game.  There is stuff I like in the game and would like to see more of, though.  If I had more of a stomach for asshattery in my spare time, like I had when I was younger, or a way of not getting pressed through the PVP mold to provide my game challenge, I'd probably renew for another year, at least, when the year I bought to try the game out is up.  I just can't see paying to play another game like that when there are a bunch of games out there that will give you a PVP challenge essentially for free.

As it is, though, my patience for people being dicks on accident, nevermind on purpose, is pretty much gone by 5 pm EST (after a few phone calls with my contractors/clients/engineers/especially engineers/my God I wish we'd just become an AE firm), and to get deeper into the game, EVE doesn't give me a choice about whether or not I feel like involving myself in it.  I'm either going to be allied with them or devoting time and space to keeping them from annoying me, probably both at the same time and neither of which I'm particularly thrilled about.  It's part of why I wish EVE was more of a threat to us than each other.  At least then my first instinct on seeing another ship in my space wouldn't be that the fun is over, it's time to deal with whatever this asshole is going to do.  I could assume he has his own shit to deal with.

I really wish the capsuleer icon on my overview wasn't the end of my enjoyment.  It's an MMORPG, I should kind of want to see other people or what's the point of the MMO bit of the genre?  In the end, though, I get the feeling I'd enjoy EVE a whole lot more if there wasn't anyone else in it.  I don't get that in the other online games I play and I think that's a major design problem.

[Vic Van Meter]

Mostly I kind of hope that because my second point is that that list is weird.  It would be like putting together a list of things to do in WoW and saying, "Heal.." then listing all the classes and specs.  Yeah, they're technically very different to play, but realistically it falls under a general heading of PVE.  More to the point, one tends to involve the other.  If you feel like burying your face into high level cosmic anomalies, you're going to be in a PVP fit because the most dangerous thing in the area is whatever capsuleer corp owns the space.

Almost makes me want to see a list like that for Shadowrun.  Say what you want about it, decking and rigging might as well have been in different games, but they went together so well.  I wonder if someone will ever make more than that crap iso browser game for it.  It'd be the most ambitious game ever made.

I don't understand. I pointed at all that what can be done in Eve like you did for WoW : "In Wow I can do this, or that, or even this...". I don't see the difference... I would even say that the possibilities of different things to do in Eve are countless times more numerous than anywhere else, and the game is famous for that...

This.

Also, I would find this critique more reasonable if the character Constantin actually interacted with the lore on Amarr (and Caldari and Minmatar, since he interacts with them) rather than fighting it at every turn.

EVE cultures are alien. We keep calling it grimdark, but that is missing the issue. The issue is that these cultures are alien and need to be treated as alien and different from modern cultures. What is considered "good" and "bad" is going to be completely different from modern ideas about the same. This is especially true with Amarr, which is the one I know, but I get the impression it is also true on the others.

If you think you could take Constantin and put him in any other light religion, to me that says that you haven't bothered situating him in the complexity of Amarr.

Now, its not really a problem for RP if people don't get into the lore, but play loosely off it, but it does result in characters going "this guy isn't really Amarr, but something else."

Could we use more lore, yes. Could the lore be better integrated into the game, yes. But it is extremely deep and there is a ton to play off of.

Mostly I kind of hope that because my second point is that that list is weird.  It would be like putting together a list of things to do in WoW and saying, "Heal.." then listing all the classes and specs.  Yeah, they're technically very different to play, but realistically it falls under a general heading of PVE.  More to the point, one tends to involve the other.  If you feel like burying your face into high level cosmic anomalies, you're going to be in a PVP fit because the most dangerous thing in the area is whatever capsuleer corp owns the space.

Almost makes me want to see a list like that for Shadowrun.  Say what you want about it, decking and rigging might as well have been in different games, but they went together so well.  I wonder if someone will ever make more than that crap iso browser game for it.  It'd be the most ambitious game ever made.

I don't understand. I pointed at all that what can be done in Eve like you did for WoW : "In Wow I can do this, or that, or even this...". I don't see the difference... I would even say that the possibilities of different things to do in Eve are countless times more numerous than anywhere else, and the game is famous for that...

This.

Also, I would find this critique more reasonable if the character Constantin actually interacted with the lore on Amarr (and Caldari and Minmatar, since he interacts with them) rather than fighting it at every turn.

EVE cultures are alien. We keep calling it grimdark, but that is missing the issue. The issue is that these cultures are alien and need to be treated as alien and different from modern cultures. What is considered "good" and "bad" is going to be completely different from modern ideas about the same. This is especially true with Amarr, which is the one I know, but I get the impression it is also true on the others.

If you think you could take Constantin and put him in any other light religion, to me that says that you haven't bothered situating him in the complexity of Amarr.

Now, its not really a problem for RP if people don't get into the lore, but play loosely off it, but it does result in characters going "this guy isn't really Amarr, but something else."

Could we use more lore, yes. Could the lore be better integrated into the game, yes. But it is extremely deep and there is a ton to play off of.

That Constantin doesn't come off as an Amarr, but something else, to be fair, is half the point.  I'd probably be a bit disappointed in myself as a roleplayer if he came off as just another Amarr set piece.  He's not supposed to, he's supposed to come off as a character first.

That said, the lore isn't deep compared to what I'm used to and conflicting where it tries to be.  More to the point, it's not very alien either.  People worshiping Gods that told them to enslave people that are at odds with the modern world aren't that alien.  If they worshiped the concept of disappointment, that would be alien.  If we had more than a handful of Scripture that painted the religion in a very complex, dual-natured way, that would be deep.  What bits we have tend to sound like the soundbites southern Baptist preachers use, but the Amarr aren't painted that way.

One of the problems is that looking through Amarr lore, I can't see any other way Constantin becomes a more interesting character by being more Amarrian or taking anything else from the lore.  Making him, say, a Tetrimonian?  It wouldn't give him anything new to grow on and would severely limit what he can grow into as a character.  It both has too much of the less useful information (limiting who he can be, where from, and what his goals are) and too little of the useful information (how else he could be defined as more than just a Tetrimonian, a thread to his personality that would be less symmetrical in character, or even a chunk of the original Scriptures that differ from the primary line that we would know besides the political).

If you've got anything that might go the other way, I'd like to read it.  I just haven't read anything yet that could make Constantin, or any Amarrian character, more interesting as a character instead of limiting to their persona.

[V. Gesakaarin]

It isn't a representation of a real world, it's a representation of a fictional world of capsuleers and what happens when you have privatized violence, an economy based on military-industrial complexes, lack of law enforcement, and deregulated corporatism coupled with unrestricted capitalism. It's a dystopian reality where being a dick is rewarded and having morals, ethics, and scruples is detrimental to "success".

Well, I guess then a different way to put it is that if incessant grimdark is all there is going to be, some of us find that rather boring. What's the point of having everything be dark when there's no light to compare it against?

I don't find it as grimdark as much as a representation of say, Dark Ages Europe. It's where you're essentially surrounded by Vikings, Barbarian Tribes, and Warlords. It's about humans being humans when there's a lack of laws, violence being power, and survival.

To use that analogy further, I sometimes look at Eve RP'ers like the Christian monks who just want to have the stability to sit in their cloistered monastaries illuminating texts and writing stories in a setting where other Eve players can very much be like Vikings rowing around in their longboats and nothing prevents them putting to shore and setting said monastaries on fire given an opportunity.

[Gaven Lok ri]

The issue isn't that Constantin comes off as not Amarr, but that he specifically comes across as modern liberal christian. That level of modernization of thought really seems to come out of nowhere IC. Why would a person of Amarrian background and education come to value life for the sake of life? What causes such a change in belief schemes? Cosntantin tries to move Amarr way too many steps "forward."

Slavery really isn't the core issue for Amarr. You need to get to the why of slavery, and the nature of the slavery model. What causes Amarr to enslave? The answer (or answers, technically) is there in the PF, and its not because god said so. You have a mix of self defense, conversion practices, and economic self interest. And if you can find a RL culture that purposely enslaved people for the express purpose of conversion, i would love to know about it.

The eras of the universe model is also pretty unconventional: the formula of All things were one>Discord, but a chosen few remain>All things reunified can be found in RL religion, but it tends to be the more obscure apocalyptic stuff and on a smaller scale.

The lack of any concept of separation of church and state is also not unique, but it doesn't exist in any modern context that I know of.

You have a dozen different offshoot ways of interpreting Amarrian religin. Sani Sabik, EoM, Blood Raider, Khanid, each of the different houses, Tetrimon (which btw are crazy conservative nutcases who kill freed slaves :p), Ammatar, and salvation church just come off the top of my head.

They all prioritize different things, and handle differently.

And I come from the south, and I don't know a single SB type who goes where Amarr does. If you want a real world model, you have to look a thousand years ago, and even then none of the models quite work.

Right now, Constantin feels limited by the fact that he doesn't engage in the lore. Instead he floats above it with strange ideas that I cant see how they grow naturally from the lore we have. And well, that is Ok. But it does make it hard for me to take you slagging EVE lore too seriously.

The Abel Jarek salvation church line would be the direction I would look to start developing as the closest to C's character, though that is unfortunately one of the more shallowly developed parts of Amarr PF. It would also require collaboration with Matari RPers so that you make sure not to say Constantin does things that the Matari wouldn't let him do.

[Vic Van Meter]

The issue isn't that Constantin comes off as not Amarr, but that he specifically comes across as modern liberal christian. That level of modernization of thought really seems to come out of nowhere IC. Why would a person of Amarrian background and education come to value life for the sake of life? What causes such a change in belief schemes? Cosntantin tries to move Amarr way too many steps "forward."

Slavery really isn't the core issue for Amarr. You need to get to the why of slavery, and the nature of the slavery model. What causes Amarr to enslave? The answer (or answers, technically) is there in the PF, and its not because god said so. You have a mix of self defense, conversion practices, and economic self interest. And if you can find a RL culture that purposely enslaved people for the express purpose of conversion, i would love to know about it.

The eras of the universe model is also pretty unconventional: the formula of All things were one>Discord, but a chosen few remain>All things reunified can be found in RL religion, but it tends to be the more obscure apocalyptic stuff and on a smaller scale.

The lack of any separation of church and state concept is also not unique, but it doesn't exist in any modern context that I know of.

You have a dozen different offshoot ways of interpreting Amarrian religin. Sani Sabik, EoM, Blood Raider, Khanid, each of the different houses, Tetrimon (which btw are crazy conservative nutcases who kill freed slaves :p), Ammatar, and salvation church just come off the top of my head.

They all prioritize different things, and handle differently.

And I come from the south, and I don't know a single SB type who goes where Amarr does. If you want a real world model, you have to look a thousand years ago, and even then none of the models quite work.

Right now, Constantin feels limited by the fact that he doesn't engage in the lore. Instead he floats above it with strange ideas that I cant see how they grow naturally from the lore we have. And well, that is Ok. But it does make it hard for me to take you slagging EVE lore too seriously.

The Abel Jarek salvation church line would be the direction I would look to start developing as the closest to C's character, though that is unfortunately one of the more shallowly developed parts of Amarr PF.

Why liberal Christian?  Constantin has stated that he believes in slavery, tends to run up his good graces wherever he goes by killing pirates, has a serious habit of womanizing in person, and drinks cognac, not bourbon.  Granted, probably not the worst frame of reference for him.  I think we have a different way of approaching lore.  I don't think of Constantin's thought as "modern" as much as he's very much a product of his environment.  He's had to reconcile his Amarrian heritage and way of thinking with his integration with the other three empires.  In a way, he isn't really just an Amarrian anymore.  His translation of the Scriptures are going to be a bit different, and I think that has to show.

I'm really not playing Constantin to show what all the Amarrians are like.  That would pretty much squash anyone else's attempts to be another character.  Constantin sees his faith in a certain way, in that his family was already a fairly leftist bloc and he's had contact with a lot of people who aren't Amarrian.

So, no, he's really not supposed to sound or act like any other Amarrian that doesn't share his unique history.  He's Amarrian enough; I don't think anything he says is heretical enough to get him tossed before the Theology Council.  However, I've brought up several times that the Ardishapur family that sponsors him is divided on him and his methodology, his own family supports him but worries about him being in danger, and Constantin himself is constantly evolving his thought based on what he hears.  He's essentially reconciling the Scriptures with the rest of the cluster he lives in.  When he reads Askura he reads something very differently than something, say, another Ardishapur who never leaves his holdings might read it.

He's kind of what you'd expect a foreign missionary to be, in the end.  You wouldn't expect the guy who spends the majority of his time living in that space to see the pieces about, say, free thought the same way.  Gaven probably thinks that the uniform thought idea applies only to Amarrians; Constantin can't help but count wise people outside the Amarr Empire as people with whom he should form a consensus.  That's probably not something that comes up for someone like Gaven.  It's certainly made Constantin idiosyncratic and a lot of other Amarrians like his message, but it definitely comes from a perspective that you wouldn't get as an Amarrian surrounded by Amarrians living the white-picket-fence Amarrian life.

Which is kind of the point because, unfortunately, all those offshoot religious views are very limiting to what Constantin would end up being.  I'm a character writer, and making him, for instance, a Sani Sabik doesn't give him much to fuel development or to give him things to react to and against within it, it essentially limits his development.  I remember you brought up the family and I'm thankful for that, because coming from the Ardishapur family and having read about them did give me something to use.  That was a good piece.  It gave me some background, as I've used a lot from their history to mould the Baracca Family history and elements like Khaedra's Law helped sort of form this somewhat-conservative but humanitarian approach I've tried moving toward.

However, for the most part, I think the lore's a bit thin and what we could really use isn't more stuff telling us what people are and are not, but giving us real source material that we can use to give characters context rather than limitations.  More about the planetary settlements and their environments, the practice of the religion (especially more Scripture that's maybe tied to procedure or practices and rituals), what jobs are allocated to what classes of society, that sort of thing.

What lore we have is generally enough to cover story bases, but I wouldn't consider it deep.  For our purposes, it's not as easy to wring evolutionary material out of it.  Just from a story standpoint though, I'll give you an example.  We're told religion runs most aspects of Amarrian life. We've got a few Scriptural passages from various places.  We can infer from people's actions what the religion must be like.  We know it's variable, as the Sacred Flesh doctrine was eventually rolled back for Jamyl and the Moral Reforms rolled back a ton of their own Scripture.  However, we're essentially left to our own devices with how that religion functions in practice, what is Scripture and what isn't, what the Moral Reforms changed outside of the political, and so on.  That's a lot not to have considering it's supposed to run their lives.

What we do have is a lot of slavery and their history of conquest, which is sort of what we've got to go on.  As you said, there's more to the Amarr than conquer and enslave everyone, but that's most of what our lore talks about when talking about the Empire at large.  I'm not sure that adding offshoot churches really helps, though at least it's something.  It's a bit like saying America was conquered from the natives and repopulated with Europeans, they had a war of independence, you list what life is like in a few different states, and then you go over the Millerites and their offshoot religions.  I mean, it's just not enough to cover the whole society, and the information you do have from that doesn't necessarily describe what the country is like.

[Jace]

No problem, I know how it goes.  I think the reason you don't often get news lore in some games is because of high volume content.  WoW, for instance, has a minor content injection every single major patch instead of every expansion, so the game's usually got something new going on every few months that adds to it.  When they dropped the Siege of Orgrimmar raid set for 5.4 in September, we also got a new PVE area to wrap up some of the story threads, a major change to one of the existing MOP zones, and a couple game re-balance shifts.  One of the nice things about WoW being the colossal block of Jello that it is has to be the giant staff that seems to be able to give us stuff to do between expansions.  Now, if only we could get a reliable rating system so we can keep people who don't know WTF they're doing out of LFR runs, I'd be pleased.

I guess my WoW experience has been a lot different as far as RP goes.  I don't keep up on forums, instead I tend to RP in game (you can walk around, so why not?)  So most of who I know in the game, I met in bars or on random dungeon runs.  I actually made a lot of friends recently running my biker gang.  I never had to worry about linear story stuff because we've always had other stuff to do and I'm not particularly interested in factional fighting (one of the other reasons EVE lore annoys me, of all the things to have in common with WoW, why multiple character factions, the hog-tie of storytelling?)  I ran IC raids for my Horde guild and the in-clan lore for that is rather extensive.  I can link the storyline as it stood when we kind of stopped running it, but it was a lot of fun having storytime in Thunder Bluff weekly.  Luckily, there was a lot of room to wiggle.  The Skulldance Clan was definitely a pro-Horde clan until Cataclysm, when we split off and RPed on our own for a while.  The last expansion was a lot of fun for us, though now we're all doing it as a sideline to our mains elsewhere.

Ahhhh, the fun of IC instancing and raiding.  Either way, until Cataclysm, I tended to avoid getting involved in the Horde/Alliance crap.  Luckily, there was always something else to do that we could apply to the story.

EVE doesn't really have that because so many areas of space are "owned".  It's easy to understand CCP not making more happen since stuff that "happens" doesn't usually matter in null, where they're pretty intent on focusing the game.  They can't do what other MMOs do and add new areas to go to that no one's ever seen before, the cluster's extents are visible.  They also can't really add many new factions and content to new areas because they'd either need to remove the empires from the relevant parts of highsec or remove the people living in lowsec, neither of which sound like they'd be popular.

What would they add that would be interesting but not fundamentally shift the game at this point?

But with all of that content you mention, despite its linearity which I can accept doesn't bother you but does me, none of it can be used ICly. No dungeon makes rational sense ICly. Everyone killed this guy? Then he respawned? You can't ICly put that into your character's story, because it just simply makes no sense, it would make their story incoherent. You couldn't walk around and talk to someone about how you killed Mr. Evil McOrc and how it was so tense and heroic, because well, they killed him to.

It is so incoherent story-wise for a character that it can't even be fixed with hand-wavium. And that's the problem with RP in most MMOs. They are specifically designed to set everyone up to be a MarySue. I killed the boss at the end of this huge dungeon. Well so did I! And me too! There is no coherent character story there. So you now by default have to detach your character from the world in which she lives just to have their story make any sense. So as far as RP goes, all of that "content" (dungeon, trash mobs, boss, repeat) is unusable for RP.

And yes, it is nice you can walk around in other games. But due to limitations of animation, don't be mistaken: it is still text-based RP.

And about your last question: I believe they should fundamentally shift the game and factions. Absolutely. Wars should happen, hisec systems should change hands for one reason or another. Is this possible? Probably not, but damned if it wouldn't be fun.

Vic, I think you missed this response of mine from earlier once the thread got busier. 

[Vic Van Meter]

No problem, I know how it goes.  I think the reason you don't often get news lore in some games is because of high volume content.  WoW, for instance, has a minor content injection every single major patch instead of every expansion, so the game's usually got something new going on every few months that adds to it.  When they dropped the Siege of Orgrimmar raid set for 5.4 in September, we also got a new PVE area to wrap up some of the story threads, a major change to one of the existing MOP zones, and a couple game re-balance shifts.  One of the nice things about WoW being the colossal block of Jello that it is has to be the giant staff that seems to be able to give us stuff to do between expansions.  Now, if only we could get a reliable rating system so we can keep people who don't know WTF they're doing out of LFR runs, I'd be pleased.

I guess my WoW experience has been a lot different as far as RP goes.  I don't keep up on forums, instead I tend to RP in game (you can walk around, so why not?)  So most of who I know in the game, I met in bars or on random dungeon runs.  I actually made a lot of friends recently running my biker gang.  I never had to worry about linear story stuff because we've always had other stuff to do and I'm not particularly interested in factional fighting (one of the other reasons EVE lore annoys me, of all the things to have in common with WoW, why multiple character factions, the hog-tie of storytelling?)  I ran IC raids for my Horde guild and the in-clan lore for that is rather extensive.  I can link the storyline as it stood when we kind of stopped running it, but it was a lot of fun having storytime in Thunder Bluff weekly.  Luckily, there was a lot of room to wiggle.  The Skulldance Clan was definitely a pro-Horde clan until Cataclysm, when we split off and RPed on our own for a while.  The last expansion was a lot of fun for us, though now we're all doing it as a sideline to our mains elsewhere.

Ahhhh, the fun of IC instancing and raiding.  Either way, until Cataclysm, I tended to avoid getting involved in the Horde/Alliance crap.  Luckily, there was always something else to do that we could apply to the story.

EVE doesn't really have that because so many areas of space are "owned".  It's easy to understand CCP not making more happen since stuff that "happens" doesn't usually matter in null, where they're pretty intent on focusing the game.  They can't do what other MMOs do and add new areas to go to that no one's ever seen before, the cluster's extents are visible.  They also can't really add many new factions and content to new areas because they'd either need to remove the empires from the relevant parts of highsec or remove the people living in lowsec, neither of which sound like they'd be popular.

What would they add that would be interesting but not fundamentally shift the game at this point?

But with all of that content you mention, despite its linearity which I can accept doesn't bother you but does me, none of it can be used ICly. No dungeon makes rational sense ICly. Everyone killed this guy? Then he respawned? You can't ICly put that into your character's story, because it just simply makes no sense, it would make their story incoherent. You couldn't walk around and talk to someone about how you killed Mr. Evil McOrc and how it was so tense and heroic, because well, they killed him to.

It is so incoherent story-wise for a character that it can't even be fixed with hand-wavium. And that's the problem with RP in most MMOs. They are specifically designed to set everyone up to be a MarySue. I killed the boss at the end of this huge dungeon. Well so did I! And me too! There is no coherent character story there. So you now by default have to detach your character from the world in which she lives just to have their story make any sense. So as far as RP goes, all of that "content" (dungeon, trash mobs, boss, repeat) is unusable for RP.

And yes, it is nice you can walk around in other games. But due to limitations of animation, don't be mistaken: it is still text-based RP.

And about your last question: I believe they should fundamentally shift the game and factions. Absolutely. Wars should happen, hisec systems should change hands for one reason or another. Is this possible? Probably not, but damned if it wouldn't be fun.

Vic, I think you missed this response of mine from earlier once the thread got busier. 

Sorry, I did.  I kind of got lost when Gaven got here.  I honestly sometimes feel like he's my boss or something.  I, in fact, did use an in-game boss as part of my orc character's development, but that's not normally used.  I've mostly said that, even if I didn't specifically kill X or Y, my character was there for the fight (or more often, wasn't, since my characters didn't normally care).

I can kind of see what you're getting at, but then again I'm not sure it's better to have no story moving whatsoever.  EVE's elements are almost meant to be divorced from each other, which is why I think faction warfare lore is such a pisser for most people.  In the end, though, what can you do?  If you're between player factions, you essentially have to set up a neverending war, or you're going to lose a gameplay element and piss off whomever was in that losing faction.  I guess I never ran into the problem because it's rarely been important that I've killed so-and-so in any game I've played unless it's a personal NPC integral to some story I'm running.  Oddly, I ran a lot less linear stories in the game that actually had linear stories.  We would randomly throw parties that turned into drunken IC raiding and I did a lot of introspective RP with my characters.

Unfortunately, that kind of fun's a lot harder to have in EVE just because of the text limitations and that being the only way we can describe actions.  I average something like two paragraphs of text in WoW per post and people have every right to criticize me for writing a LOT at a time.  I learned to be very descriptive in pure-text RP freeform.  EVE's text limit is nice for reducing spam, but man does it suck when you're trying to describe something in-depth.

I'd really like if suddenly there was an implosion in the supplies or CONCORD decided to get militant about us.  I might think about going criminal if it meant being less like Genghis Khan and more like Dillinger or Gotti on some character or another.  I'd certainly love it if those Sansha incursions could destroy stations and, if they did, they would destroy all goods on market or in hangars in those stations until it could be repaired.  People would take those incursions more seriously.

[Jace]

Sorry, I did.  I kind of got lost when Gaven got here.  I honestly sometimes feel like he's my boss or something.  I, in fact, did use an in-game boss as part of my orc character's development, but that's not normally used.  I've mostly said that, even if I didn't specifically kill X or Y, my character was there for the fight (or more often, wasn't, since my characters didn't normally care).

I can kind of see what you're getting at, but then again I'm not sure it's better to have no story moving whatsoever.  EVE's elements are almost meant to be divorced from each other, which is why I think faction warfare lore is such a pisser for most people.  In the end, though, what can you do?  If you're between player factions, you essentially have to set up a neverending war, or you're going to lose a gameplay element and piss off whomever was in that losing faction.  I guess I never ran into the problem because it's rarely been important that I've killed so-and-so in any game I've played unless it's a personal NPC integral to some story I'm running.  Oddly, I ran a lot less linear stories in the game that actually had linear stories.  We would randomly throw parties that turned into drunken IC raiding and I did a lot of introspective RP with my characters.

Unfortunately, that kind of fun's a lot harder to have in EVE just because of the text limitations and that being the only way we can describe actions.  I average something like two paragraphs of text in WoW per post and people have every right to criticize me for writing a LOT at a time.  I learned to be very descriptive in pure-text RP freeform.  EVE's text limit is nice for reducing spam, but man does it suck when you're trying to describe something in-depth.

I'd really like if suddenly there was an implosion in the supplies or CONCORD decided to get militant about us.  I might think about going criminal if it meant being less like Genghis Khan and more like Dillinger or Gotti on some character or another.  I'd certainly love it if those Sansha incursions could destroy stations and, if they did, they would destroy all goods on market or in hangars in those stations until it could be repaired.  People would take those incursions more seriously.

But even that drunken raid you mention - there's no way that can be coherent with the world ICly for the reasons I mentioned. I guess for me, I want my character to be able to be completely coherent with the world in which it resides, otherwise it is no longer open-world for me. I hate linearity, because it reduces all RP to either sitting around talking about the main story, or RPing in such a way that it has absolutely nothing to do with the world at all.

Whereas with Eve, yes, many things have little in-game consequence as far as lore goes - but it feels like it has more consequence than with a game in WoW where you have to constantly be saying "this obviously didn't happen ICly, guys". In Eve, what you do in-game can always be IC. A certain level of character immersion is possible, and that is why some of us love it - that kind of continual RP-Zen can't happen in other MMOs.