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[Lyn Farel]

What is that distinction that everyone always do out of purely OOC manners between what people do and what they say ?

Saying something is doing something. Debating something is doing something. Convincing immortal capsuleers of something is certainly worth ten times in gold than just killing them to see them coming back the next minute.

Also, why would I take part in a gameplay that I strongly disagree with ? The gap between ingame and the actual lore and universe is so huge that what happens ingame doesn't mean anything at all to me. It's vain. And my character thinks the same way too btw. Doing otherwise would be totally nonsensical. I can still play the capsuleer demigod in either way.

Like in most MMOs actually. Most RPers ignore the game to actually play the lore rather than the - limited, poor, bland, bleached, and sometimes absurd or contradictory - gameplay. Sounds logical to me.

Which was kind of the point in me wishing there was some far-off, forgotten place with a good PVE story where I could get away from the empires and nullsec grind for a while.  We've hammered slavery, invasion, and the same subjects over and over that, if CCP doesn't do drastic stuff much more often, we're essentially revving the engine in neutral.

Enlist in Saede's corp then ?

[Jace]

I think what I'm getting at is, if CCP doesn't care about RP and lore and only the game, why not just play the game and RP elsewhere.  I heard the 5th edition of Shadowrun was a whole lot better than the 4th was.

Which isn't really getting away from the crux of the matter; just because other developers are only moderately more or less interested in RPers doesn't really affect the stat of the EVE IP.  Being disappointed in everybody else doesn't necessarily mean you shouldn't be disappointed in CCP itself.  I suppose I can't judge EVE's lore amount on the basis of WoW, for instance, as Blizz released the first game in the Warcraft IP in 1994 and have a metric ton of source to go with it.  I can't judge it on a book or tabletop set because lore is mostly what they do.

I guess if I hadn't had such a broad experience, from having the freedom of my own RP world to manage to the minutiae of games like FFXI that weren't meant to be RPed in, but I did, EVE's lore isn't very special as much as it's just rather vague.  I kind of got over the V:tM thing after a few years in high school.  Hell I was eventually playing a reaction to V:tM's core zeitgeist within a year.  I've had some time to read the chronicles since I started and I can't say I've come away with as positive an impression as other people have.  It's not bad, it's just not terribly engaging.  I can't say I came away from reading any of it wanting to add anything or start a new character arc.  Which, in the end, is kind of the point of RP lore.  At least, after you've read something about paladins in whatever game they're in, you're usually cooking in your mind what it is like to be a paladin or how to disrupt the paladins or something.  Same thing with necromancers or combat engineers or drone riggers.

In EVE, I guess reading about the Khanid doesn't make me want to play a Khanid, for example, and reading about the Black Eagles didn't make them seem very interesting.  It just makes me sort of shrug.  It's not a, "I've seen this before" or "I've seen this done better" way, more of a "I can't really say I have any reaction to this whatsoever" thing.

That would be more fun, I guess, except that I get very, very easily bored of the actual game of EVE.  My gut reaction to most of what happens in the game world is, "FFS grow up!" which doesn't make it easy playing someone who's trying to understand the world around him through the lens of actually trying to be a decent human being.  I guess that's another big problem of mine, I don't see the game in those terms.  The game encourages and emphasizes a certain zeitgeist even by saying, "there are no rules."  There's also not much to do but kill each other and farm.  Like I've been saying, there might not be another storyline where we fight the undead hordes, but EVE's otherwise benign nature doesn't give us the impetus it does to form societies, survival.

Seriously, if there weren't other players in EVE, we'd never die.  The reason that, despite not having any real natural laws, that we humans form societies with laws on Earth is because Earth is a relatively hostile place to survive.  We aren't challenged that way in EVE.  The only reason to band together in game is usually to fight each other in larger groups.  While we say that the world is open for anyone and anybody to do anything, it's really not the case.  EVE does encourage, by its design, a very specific type of character and play.  I they wanted us to have a real choice between working together or fighting each other, they'd have to make a consequence for not doing one or the other.

EVE isn't trying hard enough to kill us to make the failure to communicate as dangerous as it is in the real world.

Well, first of all, I have nobody IRL to tabletop with anymore. So there's that. But as I said earlier or in another thread (everything is running together for me at this point), I do actually enjoy the Eve universe and lore despite my frustrations with CCP's inactivity.

Your lack of reaction to Eve lore is precisely how I would describe my experience with WoW, TSW, etc. I just sat there going, "Well, okay. Meh."

And the banding together aspect is a large part of why I don't like those settings, or say D&D versus the various WoD settings. I hate feeling like the setting is trying to force me in a direction, to band with people I don't want to and fight against some great evil I don't want to. I couldn't care less about the villain in the dungeon that everyone is getting together to slay, or the massive faction that is slowly enveloping the world in a wave of heinous destruction.

Part of why I like Eve is because there is no great "other" that the players are intended to fight against. To me, that is what makes it open. What you are describing to me is what makes a world closed. Nothing kills RP faster for me than someone creating a common enemy and expecting my character to band together with others and fight it.

But, I can absolutely understand someone not being driven to stay in Eve if they don't like the actual gameplay. This forum is full of people that stopped playing because the game itself stopped being fun, and the RP scene stopped motivating them.

[Jace]

What is that distinction that everyone always do out of purely OOC manners between what people do and what they say ?

Saying something is doing something. Debating something is doing something. Convincing immortal capsuleers of something is certainly worth ten times in gold than just killing them to see them coming back the next minute.

Also, why would I take part in a gameplay that I strongly disagree with ? The gap between ingame and the actual lore and universe is so huge that what happens ingame doesn't mean anything at all to me. It's vain. And my character thinks the same way too btw. Doing otherwise would be totally nonsensical. I can still play the capsuleer demigod in either way.

Like in most MMOs actually. Most RPers ignore the game to actually play the lore rather than the - limited, poor, bland, bleached, and sometimes absurd or contradictory - gameplay. Sounds logical to me.

It is the notion that if your character isn't involved in game mechanics, then any activities they claim to be doing that could be represented in-game are not actually happening and your character is straight up lying.

That explanation aside, I largely agree with your reaction to it. I don't mind people being obsessed with game mechanics, everyone has their own method of playing and RPing. But I generally think that obsessing over a distinction between those that "do" and those that "talk" is yet another division in the RP scene we don't need. And possibly the most potentially divisive of them all.

[Silas Vitalia]

What is that distinction that everyone always do out of purely OOC manners between what people do and what they say ?

Saying something is doing something. Debating something is doing something. Convincing immortal capsuleers of something is certainly worth ten times in gold than just killing them to see them coming back the next minute.

Also, why would I take part in a gameplay that I strongly disagree with ? The gap between ingame and the actual lore and universe is so huge that what happens ingame doesn't mean anything at all to me. It's vain. And my character thinks the same way too btw. Doing otherwise would be totally nonsensical. I can still play the capsuleer demigod in either way.

Like in most MMOs actually. Most RPers ignore the game to actually play the lore rather than the - limited, poor, bland, bleached, and sometimes absurd or contradictory - gameplay. Sounds logical to me.

It is the notion that if your character isn't involved in game mechanics, then any activities they claim to be doing that could be represented in-game are not actually happening and your character is straight up lying.

That explanation aside, I largely agree with your reaction to it. I don't mind people being obsessed with game mechanics, everyone has their own method of playing and RPing. But I generally think that obsessing over a distinction between those that "do" and those that "talk" is yet another division in the RP scene we don't need. And possibly the most potentially divisive of them all.

If there were an 'in game' arbitration method for RP I would be quite interested.  Things you could 'skill up' at such as charisma, etc, things that would effect these stats, then you enter into a 'dice roll' type situation with other RPers for things you are trying to do. "x throws a punch at Y" or "x convinces the guard to lower his weapon"

We don't have these tools in the game, so there's no neutral GM to handle imaginary encounters and situations.

The game engine, limited as it is, can be often used as a proxy for things "i exploded your ship" "you took over my territory"

If there were a way for a neutral GM or statistics of sorts to weave in and out of our plotting I would be interested perhaps.

[V. Gesakaarin]

That would be more fun, I guess, except that I get very, very easily bored of the actual game of EVE.  My gut reaction to most of what happens in the game world is, "FFS grow up!" which doesn't make it easy playing someone who's trying to understand the world around him through the lens of actually trying to be a decent human being.  I guess that's another big problem of mine, I don't see the game in those terms.  The game encourages and emphasizes a certain zeitgeist even by saying, "there are no rules."  There's also not much to do but kill each other and farm.  Like I've been saying, there might not be another storyline where we fight the undead hordes, but EVE's otherwise benign nature doesn't give us the impetus it does to form societies, survival.

Seriously, if there weren't other players in EVE, we'd never die.  The reason that, despite not having any real natural laws, that we humans form societies with laws on Earth is because Earth is a relatively hostile place to survive.  We aren't challenged that way in EVE.  The only reason to band together in game is usually to fight each other in larger groups.  While we say that the world is open for anyone and anybody to do anything, it's really not the case.  EVE does encourage, by its design, a very specific type of character and play.  I they wanted us to have a real choice between working together or fighting each other, they'd have to make a consequence for not doing one or the other.

EVE isn't trying hard enough to kill us to make the failure to communicate as dangerous as it is in the real world.

It isn't up to Eve to try and kill you -- it's other players. If you don't venture into the areas of the game where you do, in fact, run the risk of other players/characters having the opportunity to destroy what you've created then yes, I suppose Eve might seem rather benign.

To take your undead horde analogy, I suppose if you played DayZ and did nothing but hover around in a helicopter all day instead of running the risk of some random person killing your character and then taking all your stuff it would seem a rather bland experience.

Eve offers a lot of choice, and it even offers the choice of zero consequences: never undocking. Experiences might vary in Eve, because it has that scope where different areas bring with it different challenges. Even nullsec politics is essentially at core different groups deciding between working together or fighting each other over resources and assets needed to survive so I'm not sure what the issue is?

[Vic Van Meter]

Well, Jace, I didn't say you should band together to fight evil.  Maybe if gate camps every few minutes had to deal with roaming meteors, rabid pack drone attacks that jump through gates into highsec, running out of oxygen or fuel, DED finding out their real identity and shutting down their clone network, having to fence illicit goods that, if recognized, get their mule arrested or worse, electromagnetic storms, solar wind, ship degradation with all the good facilities in higher security space, or something of that nature, we wouldn't see so many people take it up.

As it stands, EVE is doing its best to encourage one particular kind of play even if they aren't threatening you with the army of darkness.  The universe isn't trying to kill anyone, makes it comparatively easy to play a prick, and then doesn't really reward you if you decide being a prick isn't your thing.  It's no less of a mold than something like WoW has; EVE is built to encourage that specific kind of play.  No giant soul-eating demons required.

I dislike the impetus to either jump into a null corp or faction warfare to get anywhere in the game, especially because the reasons for making us do this are kind of blatant (screw the rather idiotic way faction warfare gets handled, why are the research and manufacturing stations near the centers of learning, culture, and trade in highsec so much worse than the ones elsewhere?)

For all the complaints I have with WoW, and after seven years I have a few, the last one I'd have is a feeling of inflexibility.  If I want to PVP in WoW, I can play that as a gladiator in arenas, soldier in BGs, or I can just jump on an RPPVP server and let them try to kill me everywhere.  If I don't want to PVP, I can raid, run challenge dungeons, grind reps, run a pet combat team, set up for world bosses, whore achievements, or build professions.  I can roll all of that into RP if I want, or not.  WoW's biggest problem isn't making you into something, it's that there's so much for them to keep track of that tweaking something in the game affects a dozen other things where it would essentially form an exploit.

Well, that and heirlooms.  Worst thing that ever happened to the game.

[Vic Van Meter]

That would be more fun, I guess, except that I get very, very easily bored of the actual game of EVE.  My gut reaction to most of what happens in the game world is, "FFS grow up!" which doesn't make it easy playing someone who's trying to understand the world around him through the lens of actually trying to be a decent human being.  I guess that's another big problem of mine, I don't see the game in those terms.  The game encourages and emphasizes a certain zeitgeist even by saying, "there are no rules."  There's also not much to do but kill each other and farm.  Like I've been saying, there might not be another storyline where we fight the undead hordes, but EVE's otherwise benign nature doesn't give us the impetus it does to form societies, survival.

Seriously, if there weren't other players in EVE, we'd never die.  The reason that, despite not having any real natural laws, that we humans form societies with laws on Earth is because Earth is a relatively hostile place to survive.  We aren't challenged that way in EVE.  The only reason to band together in game is usually to fight each other in larger groups.  While we say that the world is open for anyone and anybody to do anything, it's really not the case.  EVE does encourage, by its design, a very specific type of character and play.  I they wanted us to have a real choice between working together or fighting each other, they'd have to make a consequence for not doing one or the other.

EVE isn't trying hard enough to kill us to make the failure to communicate as dangerous as it is in the real world.

It isn't up to Eve to try and kill you -- it's other players. If you don't venture into the areas of the game where you do, in fact, run the risk of other players/characters having the opportunity to destroy what you've created then yes, I suppose Eve might seem rather benign.

To take your undead horde analogy, I suppose if you played DayZ and did nothing but hover around in a helicopter all day instead of running the risk of some random person killing your character and then taking all your stuff it would seem a rather bland experience.

Eve offers a lot of choice, and it even offers the choice of zero consequences: never undocking. Experiences might vary in Eve, because it has that scope where different areas bring with it different challenges. Even nullsec politics is essentially at core different groups deciding between working together or fighting each other over resources and assets needed to survive so I'm not sure what the issue is?

Well, that's the issue.  You can't, on the one hand, say that EVE is truly free and open as a world, and in the next say that it's a game where everything revolves around one particular style of play and that those who don't like it just aren't playing the game right.  It kind of hurts that idea that EVE is a game where you do whatever you want and is truly open.  EVE made the game for a certain kind of person to play in a relatively specific way.

So since the only people with a chance to kill you being other capsuleers, you can't really say it's a world all about choices and a good representation of the real world.

[V. Gesakaarin]

That would be more fun, I guess, except that I get very, very easily bored of the actual game of EVE.  My gut reaction to most of what happens in the game world is, "FFS grow up!" which doesn't make it easy playing someone who's trying to understand the world around him through the lens of actually trying to be a decent human being.  I guess that's another big problem of mine, I don't see the game in those terms.  The game encourages and emphasizes a certain zeitgeist even by saying, "there are no rules."  There's also not much to do but kill each other and farm.  Like I've been saying, there might not be another storyline where we fight the undead hordes, but EVE's otherwise benign nature doesn't give us the impetus it does to form societies, survival.

Seriously, if there weren't other players in EVE, we'd never die.  The reason that, despite not having any real natural laws, that we humans form societies with laws on Earth is because Earth is a relatively hostile place to survive.  We aren't challenged that way in EVE.  The only reason to band together in game is usually to fight each other in larger groups.  While we say that the world is open for anyone and anybody to do anything, it's really not the case.  EVE does encourage, by its design, a very specific type of character and play.  I they wanted us to have a real choice between working together or fighting each other, they'd have to make a consequence for not doing one or the other.

EVE isn't trying hard enough to kill us to make the failure to communicate as dangerous as it is in the real world.

It isn't up to Eve to try and kill you -- it's other players. If you don't venture into the areas of the game where you do, in fact, run the risk of other players/characters having the opportunity to destroy what you've created then yes, I suppose Eve might seem rather benign.

To take your undead horde analogy, I suppose if you played DayZ and did nothing but hover around in a helicopter all day instead of running the risk of some random person killing your character and then taking all your stuff it would seem a rather bland experience.

Eve offers a lot of choice, and it even offers the choice of zero consequences: never undocking. Experiences might vary in Eve, because it has that scope where different areas bring with it different challenges. Even nullsec politics is essentially at core different groups deciding between working together or fighting each other over resources and assets needed to survive so I'm not sure what the issue is?

Well, that's the issue.  You can't, on the one hand, say that EVE is truly free and open as a world, and in the next say that it's a game where everything revolves around one particular style of play and that those who don't like it just aren't playing the game right.  It kind of hurts that idea that EVE is a game where you do whatever you want and is truly open.  EVE made the game for a certain kind of person to play in a relatively specific way.

So since the only people with a chance to kill you being other capsuleers, you can't really say it's a world all about choices and a good representation of the real world.

It isn't a representation of a real world, it's a representation of a fictional world of capsuleers and what happens when you have privatized violence, an economy based on military-industrial complexes, lack of law enforcement, and deregulated corporatism coupled with unrestricted capitalism. It's a dystopian reality where being a dick is rewarded and having morals, ethics, and scruples is detrimental to "success".

[Esna Pitoojee]

It isn't a representation of a real world, it's a representation of a fictional world of capsuleers and what happens when you have privatized violence, an economy based on military-industrial complexes, lack of law enforcement, and deregulated corporatism coupled with unrestricted capitalism. It's a dystopian reality where being a dick is rewarded and having morals, ethics, and scruples is detrimental to "success".

Well, I guess then a different way to put it is that if incessant grimdark is all there is going to be, some of us find that rather boring. What's the point of having everything be dark when there's no light to compare it against?

[Publius Valerius]

That would be more fun, I guess, except that I get very, very easily bored of the actual game of EVE.  My gut reaction to most of what happens in the game world is, "FFS grow up!" which doesn't make it easy playing someone who's trying to understand the world around him through the lens of actually trying to be a decent human being.  I guess that's another big problem of mine, I don't see the game in those terms.  The game encourages and emphasizes a certain zeitgeist even by saying, "there are no rules."  There's also not much to do but kill each other and farm.  Like I've been saying, there might not be another storyline where we fight the undead hordes, but EVE's otherwise benign nature doesn't give us the impetus it does to form societies, survival.

Seriously, if there weren't other players in EVE, we'd never die.  The reason that, despite not having any real natural laws, that we humans form societies with laws on Earth is because Earth is a relatively hostile place to survive.  We aren't challenged that way in EVE.  The only reason to band together in game is usually to fight each other in larger groups.  While we say that the world is open for anyone and anybody to do anything, it's really not the case.  EVE does encourage, by its design, a very specific type of character and play.  I they wanted us to have a real choice between working together or fighting each other, they'd have to make a consequence for not doing one or the other.

EVE isn't trying hard enough to kill us to make the failure to communicate as dangerous as it is in the real world.

It isn't up to Eve to try and kill you -- it's other players. If you don't venture into the areas of the game where you do, in fact, run the risk of other players/characters having the opportunity to destroy what you've created then yes, I suppose Eve might seem rather benign.

To take your undead horde analogy, I suppose if you played DayZ and did nothing but hover around in a helicopter all day instead of running the risk of some random person killing your character and then taking all your stuff it would seem a rather bland experience.

Eve offers a lot of choice, and it even offers the choice of zero consequences: never undocking. Experiences might vary in Eve, because it has that scope where different areas bring with it different challenges. Even nullsec politics is essentially at core different groups deciding between working together or fighting each other over resources and assets needed to survive so I'm not sure what the issue is?

Well, that's the issue.  You can't, on the one hand, say that EVE is truly free and open as a world, and in the next say that it's a game where everything revolves around one particular style of play and that those who don't like it just aren't playing the game right.  It kind of hurts that idea that EVE is a game where you do whatever you want and is truly open.  EVE made the game for a certain kind of person to play in a relatively specific way.

So since the only people with a chance to kill you being other capsuleers, you can't really say it's a world all about choices and a good representation of the real world.

It isn't a representation of a real world, it's a representation of a fictional world of capsuleers and what happens when you have privatized violence, an economy based on military-industrial complexes, lack of law enforcement, and deregulated corporatism coupled with unrestricted capitalism. It's a dystopian reality where being a dick is rewarded and having morals, ethics, and scruples is detrimental to "success".

"So since the only people with a chance to kill you being other capsuleers,"

Totally like the topic, how this is going. Im totally for new death threats 1, I mean stuff thats can kill you what isnt a other capsuleer. I mean EVE doesnt need to be Gravity, but the Idea being lost in space could be so powerful (I remember, when I was lost in a wormhole. I had the feeling of being lost (even if I was with a friend there), and to loss a curse because of my OWN action and stupidity/arrogance was great (I mean I felt something  ). It was the first and last time, as since then I was prepare (since wormholes space is random -- in its attributes -- just to a certain degree.). So Im totally for more "Random Acts of violence outside the capsuleer-realm". I mean space should be deathly in itself, something like this have I mention ones about Black Prophecy 2. True be told, I never tested the game, so I dont know how those system worked out in the end. But I could think of some ways where mother-nature/spave could do f*** around our life more (or that of our crews. Which could change our ship attributes: ROF, agility, reaction time of modules... etc...).

[Vic Van Meter]

That would be more fun, I guess, except that I get very, very easily bored of the actual game of EVE.  My gut reaction to most of what happens in the game world is, "FFS grow up!" which doesn't make it easy playing someone who's trying to understand the world around him through the lens of actually trying to be a decent human being.  I guess that's another big problem of mine, I don't see the game in those terms.  The game encourages and emphasizes a certain zeitgeist even by saying, "there are no rules."  There's also not much to do but kill each other and farm.  Like I've been saying, there might not be another storyline where we fight the undead hordes, but EVE's otherwise benign nature doesn't give us the impetus it does to form societies, survival.

Seriously, if there weren't other players in EVE, we'd never die.  The reason that, despite not having any real natural laws, that we humans form societies with laws on Earth is because Earth is a relatively hostile place to survive.  We aren't challenged that way in EVE.  The only reason to band together in game is usually to fight each other in larger groups.  While we say that the world is open for anyone and anybody to do anything, it's really not the case.  EVE does encourage, by its design, a very specific type of character and play.  I they wanted us to have a real choice between working together or fighting each other, they'd have to make a consequence for not doing one or the other.

EVE isn't trying hard enough to kill us to make the failure to communicate as dangerous as it is in the real world.

It isn't up to Eve to try and kill you -- it's other players. If you don't venture into the areas of the game where you do, in fact, run the risk of other players/characters having the opportunity to destroy what you've created then yes, I suppose Eve might seem rather benign.

To take your undead horde analogy, I suppose if you played DayZ and did nothing but hover around in a helicopter all day instead of running the risk of some random person killing your character and then taking all your stuff it would seem a rather bland experience.

Eve offers a lot of choice, and it even offers the choice of zero consequences: never undocking. Experiences might vary in Eve, because it has that scope where different areas bring with it different challenges. Even nullsec politics is essentially at core different groups deciding between working together or fighting each other over resources and assets needed to survive so I'm not sure what the issue is?

Well, that's the issue.  You can't, on the one hand, say that EVE is truly free and open as a world, and in the next say that it's a game where everything revolves around one particular style of play and that those who don't like it just aren't playing the game right.  It kind of hurts that idea that EVE is a game where you do whatever you want and is truly open.  EVE made the game for a certain kind of person to play in a relatively specific way.

So since the only people with a chance to kill you being other capsuleers, you can't really say it's a world all about choices and a good representation of the real world.

It isn't a representation of a real world, it's a representation of a fictional world of capsuleers and what happens when you have privatized violence, an economy based on military-industrial complexes, lack of law enforcement, and deregulated corporatism coupled with unrestricted capitalism. It's a dystopian reality where being a dick is rewarded and having morals, ethics, and scruples is detrimental to "success".

"So since the only people with a chance to kill you being other capsuleers,"

Totally like the topic, how this is going. Im totally for new death threats 1, I mean stuff thats can kill you what isnt a other capsuleer. I mean EVE doesnt need to be Gravity, but the Idea being lost in space could be so powerful (I remember, when I was lost in a wormhole. I had the feeling of being lost (even if I was with a friend there), and to loss a curse because of my OWN action and stupidity/arrogance was great (I mean I felt something  ). It was the first and last time, as since then I was prepare (since wormholes space is random -- in its attributes -- just to a certain degree.). So Im totally for more "Random Acts of violence outside the capsuleer-realm". I mean space should be deathly in itself, something like this have I mention ones about Black Prophecy 2. True be told, I never tested the game, so I dont know how those system worked out in the end. But I could think of some ways where mother-nature/spave could do f*** around our life more (or that of our crews. Which could change our ship attributes: ROF, agility, reaction time of modules... etc...).

I TOTALLY understand that sentiment!  You know one of the few times I've actually cared about another capsuleer?  Really cared?  There was someone (can't for the life of me remember who) who was in wormhole space.  She had a PLEX in her station, but she was about to run out of time and had to make it back before she got DCed.  It wasn't really a lore thing, wasn't really a capsuleers-might-kill-her thing, wasn't really much threat, but that was the one time I really felt like I should jump out into wormhole space and help if I could.  I think I offered to get her PLEX for her.

Wormhole space, if it was more environmentally dangerous rather than still being a place corps essentially set up shop, would be amazing.  Imagine being in space and not knowing if, should the wormhole collapse behind you, your character might be lost for weeks or months with no way to get home.

Sure as Hell would up the ante on wormhole exploration.  From what I've seen, there's always a way out and Sleeper tech is all you have to worry about.  No roaming issues.

[Publius Valerius]

That would be more fun, I guess, except that I get very, very easily bored of the actual game of EVE.  My gut reaction to most of what happens in the game world is, "FFS grow up!" which doesn't make it easy playing someone who's trying to understand the world around him through the lens of actually trying to be a decent human being.  I guess that's another big problem of mine, I don't see the game in those terms.  The game encourages and emphasizes a certain zeitgeist even by saying, "there are no rules."  There's also not much to do but kill each other and farm.  Like I've been saying, there might not be another storyline where we fight the undead hordes, but EVE's otherwise benign nature doesn't give us the impetus it does to form societies, survival.

Seriously, if there weren't other players in EVE, we'd never die.  The reason that, despite not having any real natural laws, that we humans form societies with laws on Earth is because Earth is a relatively hostile place to survive.  We aren't challenged that way in EVE.  The only reason to band together in game is usually to fight each other in larger groups.  While we say that the world is open for anyone and anybody to do anything, it's really not the case.  EVE does encourage, by its design, a very specific type of character and play.  I they wanted us to have a real choice between working together or fighting each other, they'd have to make a consequence for not doing one or the other.

EVE isn't trying hard enough to kill us to make the failure to communicate as dangerous as it is in the real world.

It isn't up to Eve to try and kill you -- it's other players. If you don't venture into the areas of the game where you do, in fact, run the risk of other players/characters having the opportunity to destroy what you've created then yes, I suppose Eve might seem rather benign.

To take your undead horde analogy, I suppose if you played DayZ and did nothing but hover around in a helicopter all day instead of running the risk of some random person killing your character and then taking all your stuff it would seem a rather bland experience.

Eve offers a lot of choice, and it even offers the choice of zero consequences: never undocking. Experiences might vary in Eve, because it has that scope where different areas bring with it different challenges. Even nullsec politics is essentially at core different groups deciding between working together or fighting each other over resources and assets needed to survive so I'm not sure what the issue is?

Well, that's the issue.  You can't, on the one hand, say that EVE is truly free and open as a world, and in the next say that it's a game where everything revolves around one particular style of play and that those who don't like it just aren't playing the game right.  It kind of hurts that idea that EVE is a game where you do whatever you want and is truly open.  EVE made the game for a certain kind of person to play in a relatively specific way.

So since the only people with a chance to kill you being other capsuleers, you can't really say it's a world all about choices and a good representation of the real world.

It isn't a representation of a real world, it's a representation of a fictional world of capsuleers and what happens when you have privatized violence, an economy based on military-industrial complexes, lack of law enforcement, and deregulated corporatism coupled with unrestricted capitalism. It's a dystopian reality where being a dick is rewarded and having morals, ethics, and scruples is detrimental to "success".

"So since the only people with a chance to kill you being other capsuleers,"

Totally like the topic, how this is going. Im totally for new death threats 1, I mean stuff thats can kill you what isnt a other capsuleer. I mean EVE doesnt need to be Gravity, but the Idea being lost in space could be so powerful (I remember, when I was lost in a wormhole. I had the feeling of being lost (even if I was with a friend there), and to loss a curse because of my OWN action and stupidity/arrogance was great (I mean I felt something  ). It was the first and last time, as since then I was prepare (since wormholes space is random -- in its attributes -- just to a certain degree.). So Im totally for more "Random Acts of violence outside the capsuleer-realm". I mean space should be deathly in itself, something like this have I mention ones about Black Prophecy 2. True be told, I never tested the game, so I dont know how those system worked out in the end. But I could think of some ways where mother-nature/spave could do f*** around our life more (or that of our crews. Which could change our ship attributes: ROF, agility, reaction time of modules... etc...).

I TOTALLY understand that sentiment!  You know one of the few times I've actually cared about another capsuleer?  Really cared?  There was someone (can't for the life of me remember who) who was in wormhole space.  She had a PLEX in her station, but she was about to run out of time and had to make it back before she got DCed.  It wasn't really a lore thing, wasn't really a capsuleers-might-kill-her thing, wasn't really much threat, but that was the one time I really felt like I should jump out into wormhole space and help if I could.  I think I offered to get her PLEX for her.

Wormhole space, if it was more environmentally dangerous rather than still being a place corps essentially set up shop, would be amazing.  Imagine being in space and not knowing if, should the wormhole collapse behind you, your character might be lost for weeks or months with no way to get home.

Sure as Hell would up the ante on wormhole exploration.  From what I've seen, there's always a way out and Sleeper tech is all you have to worry about.  No roaming issues.

GIVES A GREAT HUG. I feel you. My word choosing isnt the best... maybe I should say instate of "dead threats", "I care about something". And as you said, It can be also help (in our case) or helplessness (in my case). So I totally get where you coming from. How much I dont liked to be lost in a wormhole without a way back.... the more I liked the feeling. If thats make any sense?


"Imagine being in space and not knowing if, should the wormhole collapse behind you, your character might be lost for weeks or months with no way to get home."

Love this idea.

[Morwen Lagann]

I TOTALLY understand that sentiment!  You know one of the few times I've actually cared about another capsuleer?  Really cared?  There was someone (can't for the life of me remember who) who was in wormhole space.  She had a PLEX in her station, but she was about to run out of time and had to make it back before she got DCed.  It wasn't really a lore thing, wasn't really a capsuleers-might-kill-her thing, wasn't really much threat, but that was the one time I really felt like I should jump out into wormhole space and help if I could.  I think I offered to get her PLEX for her.

...

Okay, I'm done laughing at you now. None of that should've happened at all: you can add a PLEX to your gametime from anywhere in the game if you can find it in your assets window, whether you're in the same place as the PLEX or not.

[Jace]

Well, Jace, I didn't say you should band together to fight evil.  Maybe if gate camps every few minutes had to deal with roaming meteors, rabid pack drone attacks that jump through gates into highsec, running out of oxygen or fuel, DED finding out their real identity and shutting down their clone network, having to fence illicit goods that, if recognized, get their mule arrested or worse, electromagnetic storms, solar wind, ship degradation with all the good facilities in higher security space, or something of that nature, we wouldn't see so many people take it up.

As it stands, EVE is doing its best to encourage one particular kind of play even if they aren't threatening you with the army of darkness.  The universe isn't trying to kill anyone, makes it comparatively easy to play a prick, and then doesn't really reward you if you decide being a prick isn't your thing.  It's no less of a mold than something like WoW has; EVE is built to encourage that specific kind of play.  No giant soul-eating demons required.

I dislike the impetus to either jump into a null corp or faction warfare to get anywhere in the game, especially because the reasons for making us do this are kind of blatant (screw the rather idiotic way faction warfare gets handled, why are the research and manufacturing stations near the centers of learning, culture, and trade in highsec so much worse than the ones elsewhere?)

For all the complaints I have with WoW, and after seven years I have a few, the last one I'd have is a feeling of inflexibility.  If I want to PVP in WoW, I can play that as a gladiator in arenas, soldier in BGs, or I can just jump on an RPPVP server and let them try to kill me everywhere.  If I don't want to PVP, I can raid, run challenge dungeons, grind reps, run a pet combat team, set up for world bosses, whore achievements, or build professions.  I can roll all of that into RP if I want, or not.  WoW's biggest problem isn't making you into something, it's that there's so much for them to keep track of that tweaking something in the game affects a dozen other things where it would essentially form an exploit.

Well, that and heirlooms.  Worst thing that ever happened to the game.

You feel like it is pushing you to a specific style of play because the other ones aren't even crossing your mind. Highsec mining corps? Manufacturing? Trading? None of those may be appealing to you, but I genuinely enjoy being a space trucker. There are more opportunities than you are giving credit for because they are so unenjoyable to you, I assume. Which is fair, but it doesn't mean the universe is pushing you a certain way.

What I was referring to is world lore pushing you a certain way. Years ago when I tried to play WoW, I really did try to stay involved in the RP community. But everything was about the overall story which was very linear, and in my opinion, uninspired. Everything revolves around the new giant threat to the world that creates dungeon opportunities. NPCs had little missions that had irrelevant stories that rarely developed the lore of the world and made no IC sense if you repeated them.

In Eve, if I want to do a distribution mission, I can go back to the same agent, get another one, and it makes IC sense that I do so. And beyond the regular missions, epic arcs give interesting flavor to the world.

For most MMOs, you have two major factions and periodic third entities that threaten both factions. All lore revolves around those three things, all NPCs are either bland and irrelevant or have to do with those three entities, and ICly is absolutely makes no sense that everyone is doing these missions over and over and over. You can't realistically RP going into the same dungeon more than once. You killed him, but you really didn't. So nothing that happened in the world outside of PvP (And even then, you have the same IC problem with battlegrounds as always. Same plot of land being fought over with oddly specific rules and regular intervals) is able to be applied to your character's story.

The only IC actions in-world that ever made congruent IC sense was randomly running into world mobs and arenas.

Edit: And no matter how much me and others whine about CCP not giving us enough World News, at least that is a thing. Other MMOs? No news, lore, or anything whatsoever until the next expansion.

Edit2: Also, since this thread has split into multiple discussions, I don't really want to sift through them all when responding to you. So if I mention something already said, sorry. I'm just quoting your response to me and responding.

[Vic Van Meter]

Well, Jace, I didn't say you should band together to fight evil.  Maybe if gate camps every few minutes had to deal with roaming meteors, rabid pack drone attacks that jump through gates into highsec, running out of oxygen or fuel, DED finding out their real identity and shutting down their clone network, having to fence illicit goods that, if recognized, get their mule arrested or worse, electromagnetic storms, solar wind, ship degradation with all the good facilities in higher security space, or something of that nature, we wouldn't see so many people take it up.

As it stands, EVE is doing its best to encourage one particular kind of play even if they aren't threatening you with the army of darkness.  The universe isn't trying to kill anyone, makes it comparatively easy to play a prick, and then doesn't really reward you if you decide being a prick isn't your thing.  It's no less of a mold than something like WoW has; EVE is built to encourage that specific kind of play.  No giant soul-eating demons required.

I dislike the impetus to either jump into a null corp or faction warfare to get anywhere in the game, especially because the reasons for making us do this are kind of blatant (screw the rather idiotic way faction warfare gets handled, why are the research and manufacturing stations near the centers of learning, culture, and trade in highsec so much worse than the ones elsewhere?)

For all the complaints I have with WoW, and after seven years I have a few, the last one I'd have is a feeling of inflexibility.  If I want to PVP in WoW, I can play that as a gladiator in arenas, soldier in BGs, or I can just jump on an RPPVP server and let them try to kill me everywhere.  If I don't want to PVP, I can raid, run challenge dungeons, grind reps, run a pet combat team, set up for world bosses, whore achievements, or build professions.  I can roll all of that into RP if I want, or not.  WoW's biggest problem isn't making you into something, it's that there's so much for them to keep track of that tweaking something in the game affects a dozen other things where it would essentially form an exploit.

Well, that and heirlooms.  Worst thing that ever happened to the game.

You feel like it is pushing you to a specific style of play because the other ones aren't even crossing your mind. Highsec mining corps? Manufacturing? Trading? None of those may be appealing to you, but I genuinely enjoy being a space trucker. There are more opportunities than you are giving credit for because they are so unenjoyable to you, I assume. Which is fair, but it doesn't mean the universe is pushing you a certain way.

What I was referring to is world lore pushing you a certain way. Years ago when I tried to play WoW, I really did try to stay involved in the RP community. But everything was about the overall story which was very linear, and in my opinion, uninspired. Everything revolves around the new giant threat to the world that creates dungeon opportunities. NPCs had little missions that had irrelevant stories that rarely developed the lore of the world and made no IC sense if you repeated them.

In Eve, if I want to do a distribution mission, I can go back to the same agent, get another one, and it makes IC sense that I do so. And beyond the regular missions, epic arcs give interesting flavor to the world.

For most MMOs, you have two major factions and periodic third entities that threaten both factions. All lore revolves around those three things, all NPCs are either bland and irrelevant or have to do with those three entities, and ICly is absolutely makes no sense that everyone is doing these missions over and over and over. You can't realistically RP going into the same dungeon more than once. You killed him, but you really didn't. So nothing that happened in the world outside of PvP (And even then, you have the same IC problem with battlegrounds as always. Same plot of land being fought over with oddly specific rules and regular intervals) is able to be applied to your character's story.

The only IC actions in-world that ever made congruent IC sense was randomly running into world mobs and arenas.

Edit: And no matter how much me and others whine about CCP not giving us enough World News, at least that is a thing. Other MMOs? No news, lore, or anything whatsoever until the next expansion.

Edit2: Also, since this thread has split into multiple discussions, I don't really want to sift through them all when responding to you. So if I mention something already said, sorry. I'm just quoting your response to me and responding.

No problem, I know how it goes.  I think the reason you don't often get news lore in some games is because of high volume content.  WoW, for instance, has a minor content injection every single major patch instead of every expansion, so the game's usually got something new going on every few months that adds to it.  When they dropped the Siege of Orgrimmar raid set for 5.4 in September, we also got a new PVE area to wrap up some of the story threads, a major change to one of the existing MOP zones, and a couple game re-balance shifts.  One of the nice things about WoW being the colossal block of Jello that it is has to be the giant staff that seems to be able to give us stuff to do between expansions.  Now, if only we could get a reliable rating system so we can keep people who don't know WTF they're doing out of LFR runs, I'd be pleased.

I guess my WoW experience has been a lot different as far as RP goes.  I don't keep up on forums, instead I tend to RP in game (you can walk around, so why not?)  So most of who I know in the game, I met in bars or on random dungeon runs.  I actually made a lot of friends recently running my biker gang.  I never had to worry about linear story stuff because we've always had other stuff to do and I'm not particularly interested in factional fighting (one of the other reasons EVE lore annoys me, of all the things to have in common with WoW, why multiple character factions, the hog-tie of storytelling?)  I ran IC raids for my Horde guild and the in-clan lore for that is rather extensive.  I can link the storyline as it stood when we kind of stopped running it, but it was a lot of fun having storytime in Thunder Bluff weekly.  Luckily, there was a lot of room to wiggle.  The Skulldance Clan was definitely a pro-Horde clan until Cataclysm, when we split off and RPed on our own for a while.  The last expansion was a lot of fun for us, though now we're all doing it as a sideline to our mains elsewhere.

Ahhhh, the fun of IC instancing and raiding.  Either way, until Cataclysm, I tended to avoid getting involved in the Horde/Alliance crap.  Luckily, there was always something else to do that we could apply to the story.

EVE doesn't really have that because so many areas of space are "owned".  It's easy to understand CCP not making more happen since stuff that "happens" doesn't usually matter in null, where they're pretty intent on focusing the game.  They can't do what other MMOs do and add new areas to go to that no one's ever seen before, the cluster's extents are visible.  They also can't really add many new factions and content to new areas because they'd either need to remove the empires from the relevant parts of highsec or remove the people living in lowsec, neither of which sound like they'd be popular.

What would they add that would be interesting but not fundamentally shift the game at this point?