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[Arista Shahni]

Well its a simple question.

If they couldn't get their normal slave pools, or their normal imports, where did they come from?

The PF stats flatly that disconnected from Empire, Kingdom needed the Caldari for trade.

It also flatly states it is disconnected from the "normal slave pools" and takes what it can get.  it is only the "what it can get" which is undefined / not fleshed out.  The already subsituted, say, Gallente pop star for a busty Ealur chick.

My point is this: if you normally needed 50 slaves to mind the garden but instead only have 25, you use 25 wielding Caldari manufactured automated hedge trimmers to give them the efficiency of 50 (and the Caldari are about efficiency, among other things.) 

If it takes me 3 hours ot sew a dress by hand, but thirty minutes if I use a sewing machie, that is the sewing machine substituting for the needle, not the seamstress.  There is an added side effect of a reduction in required time.  Its the "added side effect" I'm talking about, not a substitution of a slave for a hedge trimmer without a slave to operate it.

So no, I'm not saying "Replaced slaves with drones" (that would be Gallente), but augementing their efficiency with tech.  As it is they prefer chip implants to Vitoc for their slaves, with an implant it would be safer to allow them things like machines etc that one wouldn't normally give them access to for fear of using the automated hedge trimmers to chop up their owners in their sleep

I'd have no issues with making that claim, as its stated like 4,000 times over that the Kingdom is not afaid of tech advancements.  So the groundwork is already there.  It's not an idea being born of a vaccuum.

[Publius Valerius]

I personally have no issue with the Khanid being racist.  They're not the only racists in New Eden, and racism isn't an immediate transition or synonym to xenophobia / bigotry. 

I play Arista as so racist that it ends up painfully subtle - she doesn't even need to say anything racist for people to eventually realise after months of interacting with her normal pleasantries, "Oh my god this woman is a fucking racist!!"

If you play a racist is one thing. Saying a faction/institution is racist is another thing.

-Example I have wrote here about a racist: But does it mean the U-nats are racits? No. Does it mean the Fed are racist? No. His opinion is his, but not a paradigm. And Eterne had said the Khanid faction has a racist paradigm. Which wasnt before in the lore and doesnt make much sense. To what are they racist? And Why they are racist? Those their Religion says so? And what is with the fact that they are less relgious?

[Publius Valerius]

Well its a simple question.

If they couldn't get their normal slave pools, or their normal imports, where did they come from?

The PF stats flatly that disconnected from Empire, Kingdom needed the Caldari for trade.

It also flatly states it is disconnected from the "normal slave pools" and takes what it can get.  it is only the "what it can get" which is undefined / not fleshed out.  The already subsituted, say, Gallente pop star for a busty Ealur chick.

My point is this: if you normally needed 50 slaves to mind the garden but instead only have 25, you use 25 wielding Caldari manufactured automated hedge trimmers to give them the efficiency of 50 (and the Caldari are about efficiency, among other things.) 

If it takes me 3 hours ot sew a dress by hand, but thirty minutes if I use a sewing machie, that is the sewing machine substituting for the needle, not the seamstress.  There is an added side effect of a reduction in required time.  Its the "added side effect" I'm talking about, not a substitution of a slave for a hedge trimmer without a slave to operate it.

So no, I'm not saying "Replaced slaves with drones" (that would be Gallente), but augementing their efficiency with tech.  As it is they prefer chip implants to Vitoc for their slaves, with an implant it would be safer to allow them things like machines etc that one wouldn't normally give them access to for fear of using the automated hedge trimmers to chop up their owners in their sleep

I'd have no issues with making that claim, as its stated like 4,000 times over that the Kingdom is not afaid of tech advancements.  So the groundwork is already there.  It's not an idea being born of a vaccuum.

As I already told: it is often discussed whether technical progress jobs creates or on the contrary cause of unemployment....

In our example, it isnt given that the new equilibrium means that the Kingdom needs less "labor". See the link before (the german wiki page)... If you have a further questions, just ask. I could make some examples (I will think about a simple example... how I best explain this)....

Thats why I dont want to do a subitution claim.... Meaning: Action X leads to less demand on labor. Or in our case less demand on slaves.

[Morwen Lagann]

Regarding the 'other sources' for the slave pool, I've always viewed it as the Kingdom not having a problem with raiding people for slave stock if absolutely necessary, since at the time they would not have been bound by Heideran's decree - or purchasing it from groups like the Cartel. And yes, agreed on the bit about crimes tending to result in slavery. I've also viewed the Kingdom as taking a more practical view on the issue and less spiritual - that while you'll have Holders here and there who actually believe in the whole service-guarantees-second-class-citizenship thing as the traditional Amarrian Holders do, you'll also find most don't make a big deal out of it in that fashion and just consider it a 'cheaper' workforce.

Not sure if that decree is still binding anymore with Jamyl on the throne, or with the change in relations between the Kingdom and Empire, but I imagine that the issue of acquiring additional slaves is not as dire as it once was either way.

[Publius Valerius]

Regarding the 'other sources' for the slave pool, I've always viewed it as the Kingdom not having a problem with raiding people for slave stock if absolutely necessary, since at the time they would not have been bound by Heideran's decree - or purchasing it from groups like the Cartel. And yes, agreed on the bit about crimes tending to result in slavery. I've also viewed the Kingdom as taking a more practical view on the issue and less spiritual - that while you'll have Holders here and there who actually believe in the whole service-guarantees-second-class-citizenship thing as the traditional Amarrian Holders do, you'll also find most don't make a big deal out of it in that fashion and just consider it a 'cheaper' workforce.

Thats How I see it too:
http://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=317170&find=unread
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Political_roster_of_the_Khanid_Kingdom#Royal_Castes

The Khanid had never a racist paradigm  It doesnt make much sense.

[Arista Shahni]

Well, that's certainly how I read it.  If they use the wrong word okay, but ALL Amarrian are supremacists in one way or another, or the entire basis of the concect - or at least the justification - of religious slavery or otherwise flies out of the window.  The concept of Khanid racial supremacy could have very easily come from King Khanid himself, and even be a relatively "new" thing, though the Khanid seeing themselves as a badass martial race of New Eden folk specifically for asskicking for God's sake (as in ALL of them, not just Kingdom Khanid who are at times defines as having this 'less religious' ideal in some of their subfactions, in other points in being MORE religious than their Empire counterparts) is again not an idea that could be considered born of a vaccuum. 

I am not going to worry about the details as to why or how as I do not require it for immersion of character or suspension of disbelief.  My character is not a wiki article; it's a guideline in the sense of 'Don't deviate insanely from it, but don't be an uncreative carbon copy of it either - use it as a general example'.

Again as I wouldn't work on nor do I worry about the wiki/lore enough to nitpick at it, I'm not going to get let get under my skin or rile me up as it would detract from my enjoyment of gameplay to focus on one or two words in thousands.  Some of these arguments sound so personal when you talk about it.  There is an "idea" as to what they (The Khanid) are and there needs to be room for player's personal creativity.  If these people aren't writers - or bad ones - the ideas won't come across right to everyone reading them.  But I wont be banned for "YDIW" in RP in EVE.

[Publius Valerius]

Well, that's certainly how I read it.  If they use the wrong word okay, but ALL Amarrian are supremacists in one way or another, or the entire basis of the concect - or at least the justification - of religious slavery or otherwise flies out of the window.  The concept of Khanid racial supremacy could have very easily come from King Khanid himself, and even be a relatively "new" thing, though the Khanid seeing themselves as a badass martial race of New Eden folk specifically for asskicking for God's sake (as in ALL of them, not just Kingdom Khanid who are at times defines as having this 'less religious' ideal in some of their subfactions, in other points in being MORE religious than their Empire counterparts) is again not an idea that could be considered born of a vaccuum. 

Lol where is PIE when you need it.  Just joking. But when you go deeper into the lore you will find out that the Justification isnt supremacy. I want start here a new topic. You will find threads about this on this forum.

I am not going to worry about the details as to why or how as I do not require it for immersion of character or suspension of disbelief.  My character is not a wiki article; it's a guideline in the sense of 'Don't deviate insanely from it, but don't be an uncreative carbon copy of it either - use it as a general example'.

Again as I wouldn't work on not do I worry about the wiki/lore enough, I'm not going to get let get under my skin or rile me up as it would detract from my enjoyment of gameplay to focus on one or two words in thousands.

You still dont understand it?

He made a paradigm. It has nothing to do what you choose. Or I as player. It is out of the realm of our doing, thats why it is important. 

About: "Khanid seeing themselves as a badass martial race of New Eden folk specifically for asskicking for God's sake" You know in the Kingdom: "Mans law is above Gods law."  But as I said you as indivual can roll with what ever you like or love.


I think CCP, has just work some RL white-power-stuff in without thinking how it could work in a society which has no racial cleavage..... He had just done what TonyG has done, adding stuff without knowing how it will work or could work. By the way can someone tell me where TonyG had made his political science degree and on what topic. Not that I start hating, Im just currious. He had made so many errors.

As I said... Im ready to roll with Eternes version if he or you answers my questions:
To what are they racist? None Amarr, none True Amarr etc....
And Why they are racist? Social Darwinism? Which has the problem that it implaies that humans are unequal. Which led to further questions, like unqual in what? Like who is Praying harder is better? As I said. TonyG shit without thinking shit through.
Those their Religion says so?
And what is with the fact that they are less relgious?

[Samira Kernher]

Khanid and I believe the majority of the Kingdom are still True Amarr. Therefore, the racism would probably be similar to Imperial racism--the True Amarr are superior to all other races. Though it's possible that in the Kingdom the Khanid would be viewed on the same level as True Amarr to strengthen Khanid II's power base among the Khanid bloodline.

As for where the racist stuff comes from... the kingdom is an offshoot of Amarrian culture. Traditional Amarr culture is racist and has been since EVE launched (it's actually been reduced quite a bit from what it was, to my understanding). The True Amarr were the only race that did not turn from God, thus they are Chosen and thus superior to all the other races. It's not something that originated from Eterne.

The only reason I could see for the kingdom being less racist than the Empire is that the kingdom is more liberal and pragmatic--I would expect conservative territories like Ardishapur etc to have more racist outlooks. It has nothing to do with a 'white-power' BS or whatever--this is a fictional world, and some of the cultures in that world are racist. Amarrian racism stems from the religion, and as the kingdom still maintains that religion (in part), then clearly that carried over. Afterall, the original Kingdom chronicle already says: "... most Amarr traditions and customs still exist within the kingdom."

[Publius Valerius]

Khanid and I believe the majority of the Kingdom are still True Amarr. Therefore, the racism would probably be similar to Imperial racism--the True Amarr are superior to all other races. Though it's possible that in the Kingdom the Khanid would be viewed on the same level as True Amarr to strengthen Khanid II's power base among the Khanid bloodline.

As for where the racist stuff comes from... the kingdom is an offshoot of Amarrian culture. Traditional Amarr culture is racist and has been since EVE launched (it's actually been reduced quite a bit from what it was, to my understanding). The True Amarr were the only race that did not turn from God, thus they are Chosen and thus superior to all the other races. It's not something that originated from Eterne.

The only reason I could see for the kingdom being less racist than the Empire is that the kingdom is more liberal and pragmatic--I would expect conservative territories like Ardishapur etc to have more racist outlooks. It has nothing to do with a 'white-power' BS or whatever--this is a fictional world, and some of the cultures in that world are racist. Amarrian racism stems from the religion, and as the kingdom still maintains that religion (in part), then clearly that carried over. Afterall, the original Kingdom chronicle already says: "... most Amarr traditions and customs still exist within the kingdom."

and that I do falsfy here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4179988#post4179988

As I said... racism, isnt working as well. It would just repeat the old TonyG makro.makro error. Or what you have shown above nicely. OR IN OTHER WORD: RACISM ISNT LEGITIMATION OF SLAVERY. RELIGION IS THE LEGITIMATION OF SLAVERY. Two different things. We dont want to become more TonyG as TonyG himself. OR in other words... RELIGION IS THE LEGITIMATION OF SLAVERY, form that derives the explanation for the Kingdom slavery .... which cant work in a way as in the Empire (as It is less religious). I cant repeat that fact engouh RELIGION IS THE LEGITIMATION OF SLAVERY... we play AMARRIANS NOT AMERCIANS. When we play southern slave holder we can say: RACISM IS THE LEGITIMATION OF SLAVERY.

"Khanid and I believe the majority of the Kingdom are still True Amarr." Wíth to large immigration waves I dont think so... as I mention in the Demo-page. Whats about all the "anti" having one nation not being white? Just curious.

[Shiori]

Publius, dear. Random bolding, ellipsis, and capitalization never strengthens or clarifies any kind of statement. Except "I'm off my meds again."

[Publius Valerius]

Publius, dear. Random bolding, ellipsis, and capitalization never strengthens or clarifies any kind of statement. Except "I'm off my meds again."

Yeah short form.... You people are doing it wrong  As individual, you can do what you like (being a racist, social darwinist, praying harder,ect...), but the paradigm is something else... (And there Eterne makes a statement about a paradigm)

The paradigm:
Amarr: RELIGION IS THE LEGITIMATION OF SLAVERY
Souther Slaveholder: RACISM IS THE LEGITIMATION OF SLAVERY

I hope this isnt so hard to understand?

[Arista Shahni]

1. I'm American.  If my existence is real life  "YDIW", excuse me.  I'm listening but the way you're starting to scream I could see why someone wouldn't.  My apologies for being "American" and pointing that out.

2.  The Amarrian people were racist before Tony G wrote books that people define as shit.  That's why they enslaved people that weren't "True Amarr".  The Scriptures point out that True Amarr did not turn from God, True Amarr are chosen, therefore with these thigns being equal a simple logic chain states that religion = race.  Of course in a real situation that would not be an absolute but the extrapolation from existing lore as a whole shows it would take proof that a true Amarr was a heretic, whereas with another race they're 'guilty until proven innocent' - and with the Amarr the clarification of said guilt takes literal centuries - look at the racial description of the Ni-Kunni which states "they're generally no longer considered slaves".  Emphasis on 'generally'.

If this is going to turn into an argument about people being 'so American' .. let me bow out of genuine real life racism now, thanks.

3.  Again not all Kingdom Khanid are less religious or there wouldn't be an entire subfaction dedicated to people more religious than imperial Amarr.

I'm out of this convo.  Good luck with your work.

[Publius Valerius]

1. I'm American.  If my existence is real life  "YDIW", excuse me.  I'm listening but the way you're starting to scream I could see why someone wouldn't/  My apologies for being "American" and pointing that out.

2.  The Amarrian people were racist before Tony G wrote books that people define as shit.  That's why they enslaved people that weren't "True Amarr".  The Scriptures point out that True Amarr did not turn from God, True Amarr are chosen, therefore with these thigns being equal a simple logic chain states that religion = race.  Of course in a real situation that would not be an absolute but the extrapolation from existing lore as a whole shows it would take proof that a true Amarr was a heretic, whereas with another race they're 'guilty until proven innocent' - and with the Amarr the clarification of said guilt takes literal centuries - look at the racial description of the Ni-Kunni which states "they're generally no longer considered slaves".  Emphasis on 'generally'.

If this is going to turn into an argument about people being 'so American' .. let me bow out of genuine real life racism now, thanks.

3.  Again not all Kingdom Khanid are less religious or there wouldn't be an entire subfaction dedicated to people more religious than imperial Amarr.

I'm out of this convo.  Good luck with your work.

Again...

You are saying, that racism is the LEGITIMATION OF SLAVERY. Which is in the Empire not the case. See here: https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Slavery#Justification
It is Scritutures..... So again. You doing it wrong.


Amarr: RELIGION IS THE LEGITIMATION OF SLAVERY
and for some: RELIGION IS THE LEGITIMATION OF RACISM, both in case is relgion the core.

YOU doing scuh a hardcore makro.makro error. I can repeat this engouh..... think... form where legitimation comes from? Scriptures.

By the way....Arista Shahni to (3) thats why I say webers bathtube... I dont make this assumtion or have I said something in that direction? NO I havent.


P.S."If this is going to turn into an argument about people being 'so American' .. let me bow out of genuine real life racism now, thanks." I hope you never visit 0.0. It is 4chan with spaceships. You will have some fun.

[Arista Shahni]

Please stop insulting me.

[Publius Valerius]

Please stop insulting me.

What have I said?