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[Lyn Farel]

Well, firstly this is not intended as a YDIW. I would like to discuss about it instead and have a constructive view of the subject. I am not totally sure what to think of it yet.

As I said in the other post, I have stumbled upon people using the scify idea that memories can be downloaded, implanted, erased, tampered with like you do with a piece of software. Since wetware stuff and genetics are something central to the science RP thing of my character (tied to the transhumanism themes of Eve), I was rather directly concerned. So i am rather mitigated on that concept :

+ It's a very nice idea, full of opportunities for RP, and it introduces a nice dystopian mechanism directly dealing with the brain and the true essence of a person.

- The main issue i'm facing atm is that I feel like stripped of a part of the RP of my own faction. SoCT made skillbooks and capsuleer learning as well as capsule interfaces (the latter as shown in that old obscure piece of news when HACs were introduced). Those are expensive and unaffordable for most baseliners, and yet it was told that a derived tech suddenly was accessible to every junkie that wanted his "memory trip fix". It deals on the same level since it's basically about inserting memory stuff into someone else memory. And the other thing that closely deals with memory is... cloning, which is even more expensive and non accessible.

I came to the thought that memory transfers might be somewhat less complex since it's basically just declarative memory, data, meaning emotions, visuals, sensations, etc, where skillbooks are actually teaching you stuff, and cloning copies a whole brain pattern.

Though i'm not sure where to draw the limit ? Does that sound godmoddy ? Not sure myself, probably not. It's really interesting, but at the same time I feel like the kind of things that is supposed to be a very specific SoCT RP matter is being trivialized. It would be like if everyone not caldari suddenly started to use Napanii.

Am I overreacting ? That's possible, because I really find the subject interesting.

[Katrina Oniseki]

Sounds reasonable to me. I think the learning skillbooks are still in the system, just removed from markets and replaced with other things in the game. So maybe Gogela's site offers links to them.

[Lyn Farel]

I am not sure if we are talking about the same thing ? 

[Arista Shahni]

Well there is a teeny bit of god moddery snowflake fuckery (wee! fuckery!) in Arista's background that involves this, and I used it to explain why the hell she knew so much about EVE already that she knew about flying in low security space without ever actually being taught all those cool tricks, her associations with certain pilots which make no sense ICly (when I was trying to get Mirage to RP initially), her IC knowledge of pirate organizations ICly she had connections with, etc. -- because I do certain things particualrly hardcore, and if Arista had no experience flying in low, then she had none.  Oooh, but my OLD CHARACTER did, and she was biomassed.  Hmm.  My lack of feeling like wasting ISK on blowing myself up because no one taught celestial bouncing to this little Khanid ICly led to some backstory crap.  That was about the whole of it and certainly isn't focal to her as a character. 

So, it rarely comes up anymore, but did involve "skillbooks", or at least that kind of tech - ie it was done on a Capsuleer/cloning level, as opposed to some back room MIB thing that  blows out half the powergrid to erase a 'flashything' memory change.  Also the people who did it are "over there" (background people who will likely never show up in the foreground, generic Shadow Organization Cartel Inc #4927 who pulled it off, of course for ISK).  It also didn't ALTER any memories via Total Recall or anything.

So is that the question - ie. how "trivialised" is memory, or how easily is it to replicate false ones in EVE (Total Recall, Bladerunner clones, "I've seen things.." etc)?

[Isis Dea]

Don't we do this already via soft clones? 

[Lyn Farel]

True

[Morwen Lagann]

Don't we do this already via soft clones? 

Well. Some of us do, despite the best efforts of some people at CCP to tell us it isn't legit. But that may not be the best debate to get into here (partly because there are other threads on it, and partly because it is a seriously touchy subject for some people, like me).

[Isis Dea]

Don't we do this already via soft clones? 

Well. Some of us do, despite the best efforts of some people at CCP to tell us it isn't legit. But that may not be the best debate to get into here (partly because there are other threads on it, and partly because it is a seriously touchy subject for some people, like me).

Might want to double check this but I could have sworn it's been mentioned in chronicles before.  :\

[Lyn Farel]

I thought a bit more about this and I don't think it is like cloning (hard or soft). Cloning in the traditional CCP sense means that you need a blank brain adapted to the individual if wealthy, and generic (which can even go to animal biomass instead of human) if not wealthy. Then it prints the infomorph data right into it.

With those facts in mind, it is highly speculative that you can erase or replace a memory with another, much like you can not burn a CD image on a CD that is not rewrittable. Is memory rewrittable with the current Eve tech ? Perhaps. And then, memory tampering and partial downloads / injections is even more tricky since it's a lot more complicated than just copying the whole...

Which is what skillbooks do. And that makes me believe that capsuleer skillbooks are pieces of highly advanced tech that is probably a lot more complex than the infomorph transfer happening in the cloning process, which also explains the time it takes, considering that PF states that hard cloning has to instantly scan the brain and thus, damages it irreparably. Where skillbooks can't allow that, unlike hard cloning. The high technology included in cloning probably happens elsewhere, like in the genetic and bio engineering happening to sculpt the body out of cadavers.

That way I see 3 different things :

- Hard cloning (PF) : breach in the capsule, or jump cloning, using the exact same tech apparently but leads to inconsistencies like "how the hell do they extract the implants of the former body ?". The infomorph is transferred into a blank new body ready for him, fit to him with his own DNA and bioprints.

- Soft cloning (non PF) : scanning a brain without killing the patient, which probably requires a lot of time with a slow process and different technology. In any case, either the recipient new body is already implanted with the backup saved infomorph but put in coma, either the recipient body is like for hardcloning, which is blank, and ready to accept the backup infomorph that is stored in the meantime in a data state drive in the meantime. (I prefer the latter solution, which is less derpy / dangerous regarding PF) In any case, soft cloning can already be considered as death of the individual since the consciousness string is discontinuous and broken, thus another stream awakens, not strictly the same individual.

- Skillbooks (PF) : no brain scanning to inject it into another blank brain here. It's very specific data implanted into a living brain pattern through implant procedures. It is also not only data (explicit declarative memory) but also and most of all skill learning itself (implicit procedural memory). Where cloning involves copying a pattern where you don't need to understand how the pattern work, you just have to copy paste it and care about the recipient functionality, skillbook learning actually imply also understanding how the data transferred actually works, added to knowing how acting on the procedural memory itself which is probably a lot more complicated than just memory declarative data.

So yeah, i'm still a little bit uneasy about this being suddenly widespread tech used by new eden nerds to get their memory fix...

[Morwen Lagann]

It hasn't been mentioned in chronicles explicitly but its existence is implied.

Softcloning was part of the original version of the cloning page on the lore portal. It was removed about a year ago and replaced with a variety of nonsense that basically equates to "lol, RPers are all retarded suicidal derps for ever leaving their pods to pee, EVEN ONCE". And then their explanation for jump clones flies entirely in the face of game mechanics, and in the wrong direction (seriously, they pull out your implants and put them into another body).

As far as RP goes, it's typically used as an anti-godmoding RP device. "Alright, fine, you detonated this bomb in the bar and killed a couple of us; we'll just use a backup from a few days/weeks ago and move along because fuck you, assbag, I am not biomassing."

[Isis Dea]

It hasn't been mentioned in chronicles explicitly but its existence is implied.

Softcloning was part of the original version of the cloning page on the lore portal. It was removed about a year ago and replaced with a variety of nonsense that basically equates to "lol, RPers are all retarded suicidal derps for ever leaving their pods to pee, EVEN ONCE". And then their explanation for jump clones flies entirely in the face of game mechanics, and in the wrong direction (seriously, they pull out your implants and put them into another body).

As far as RP goes, it's typically used as an anti-godmoding RP device. "Alright, fine, you detonated this bomb in the bar and killed a couple of us; we'll just use a backup from a few days/weeks ago and move along because fuck you, assbag, I am not biomassing."

Wow... I did not know they removed it. That's shitty. 

[Arista Shahni]

yeh ninjachange...  // your jumpclone is basically a double medclone.

[Morwen Lagann]

Again, there's a reason a lot of us went "fuck you CCP and your fail logic" and just continued onward as if the change had never been made.

I sincerely suggest that approach.

[Saede Riordan]

Again, there's a reason a lot of us went "fuck you CCP and your fail logic" and just continued onward as if the change had never been made.

I sincerely suggest that approach.

This really.

[Kohiko Sun]

It's a bit too close to the fourth wall with the NPC calling it an 'epic arc' but:

Sister Alitura  Division: Security 0.6 Arnon IX - Moon 3 - Sisters of EVE Bureau Effective Standing: 9.7    

Hello Kohiko Sun. Good to see you again. I would like to remind you that you have previously completed this epic arc and for you to embark on it once again I would have to erase all memory of the arc from your mind. Are you sure you would like to start this journey once again and lose all history of this arc?

I always wondered about how 'safe' the implants and datajacks are. The thought of a pickpocket type with a datastick of bad code causing a mess makes me cackle.


Not really memory, but kind of related:
Since Egonics can send music right into someone's brain, I can imagine them trying to figure out how to make 'movies'. Record the 'actor's' brainwaves from their senses and emotions, then the 'viewer' experiences them without any sort of memory swap involved - the 'viewer' still has memory of a clearly fake experience, but it's not an actual implanted memory. "I was there!" I think the New Eden nerds would be more interested in that ...because pr0n. <.<