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Author Topic: 3D Printed Pistol  (Read 4700 times)

orange

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Re: 3D Printed Pistol
« Reply #15 on: 04 Nov 2013, 22:54 »

Which it probably should, considering the gun is smoothbore and thus also has no identifying rifling marks to examine during a ballistics test.  So not only can you fabricate a gun without any regulation, but then it'd be almost impossible to prove that the bullet came from the gun you fired.

Warfare with smoothbore fire arms:


Waterloo


Yorktown

The 3d printed gun they have now can fire, but not well.  It's an exceptionally poor gun, though they may someday make it worth something.  As it stands, though, you can paint any real gun funny colors and make a fake gun look real.  I don't think that is the problem.

I was unclear, but I meant more the shape than the color. Having wild tyedye colors (can you do that?) and an odd shape might make someone not realize it's a gun at all. This is my point. It won't show up as anything suspicious on an x-ray scan at the airport. It could be hidden in with a box of children's toys. It could be given to a toddler to carry (sans bullet) into a courtroom with the bullet inside the shoe (that has a metal buckle).

The point is that a lot of these basic gun recognition tropes we take for granted right now - the shape, the weight, the metal, the color... all of that is thrown out the window. The only part that remains the same is the bullet. If you can't even recognize the firing device reliably... well isn't that a bigger problem than paper trails?

I reality we were already taking those for granted.



That is an actual AR-15, not a toy.  I had a toy M-16 in 1992 that looked more real than that (Chocolate Chip Camo and everything!).



Classic disguise for a submachine gun.

As far as weight - well, one of the biggest drivers for infantry weapons is weight and manufactures continually work to reduce the weight of the weapon (which allows the infantryman to carry more stuff like bullets, batteries, and water).
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Vic Van Meter

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Re: 3D Printed Pistol
« Reply #16 on: 04 Nov 2013, 23:06 »

The 3d printed gun they have now can fire, but not well.  It's an exceptionally poor gun, though they may someday make it worth something.  As it stands, though, you can paint any real gun funny colors and make a fake gun look real.  I don't think that is the problem.

I was unclear, but I meant more the shape than the color. Having wild tyedye colors (can you do that?) and an odd shape might make someone not realize it's a gun at all. This is my point. A box shaped 'gun' won't show up as anything suspicious on an x-ray scan at the airport. An airplane shaped one could be hidden in with a bunch of children's toys. It could be given to a toddler to carry (sans bullet) into a courtroom with the bullet inside the shoe (that has a metal buckle). There's all sorts of new and devious ways to sneak them around without being detected, in ways that you can't do with current guns that aren't spring-and-nail toilet paper reels.

The point is that a lot of these basic gun recognition tropes we take for granted right now - the shape, the weight, the metal, the color... all of that is thrown out the window. The only part that remains the same is the bullet. If you can't even recognize the firing device reliably... well isn't that a bigger problem than paper trails?

You can certainly tie-dye a gun!  And that... would be the wierdest thing I will have ever seen.

Hey, I used the future perfect tense!

You weren't really unclear, I think people have this image of "a gun" and that's sort of what they expect.  In reality, guns come in a nearly limitless variety of shapes, sizes, and styles.  The first bullpup assault rifle, the Steyr AUG, is probably more recognizable to most people from movies that used it as a laser gun prop.  It looked funky.  The FN P90 by Fabrique Nationale looks like someone took a router to a piece of 2x6 lumber and used it to make a black plastic toy.  It used to be fairly common for walking sticks to actually be loaded, single-shot guns.  Spies have been building guns into pens for decades, even.  I can't remember who for the life of me, but I remember someone being assassinated in Britain by having a ricin pellet fired into his leg from an umbrella.

I think a problem you're touching on is that, up until fairly recently, these kinds of things were actually illegal to own and possess.  Some states have statutes on the books to make them illegal, but the U.S. has no national ban on weapons that look like other things.  Likewise, most toy guns that look even moderately real come with a giant, orange tip on the end that alerts people that the gun isn't real.  In fact, it's getting harder to get toy guns that look real.  I remember having a few as a kid that looked somewhat genuine.  I think some toy companies were worried that they might be "encouraging violent behavior."

It didn't do me any harm, but kids these days....

Anyway, for right now, I don't think the shape or style of the gun is going to be too much of an issue because they've made guns already that  break all the rules.  What you might be getting at that would be a serious problem are guns made to look like things that are not, in any way, shape, or form, guns.  At least you'd need to be a pretty competent gunsmith to build a working gun out of a tape dispenser.  If you can model anything, in 3d, from plastic and you can get a working gun, you can just 3d print a gun that looks like a pen, or a coffee thermos, or a smartphone.  All of those would have to be fairly thick to accommodate even a .22 LR, but 3d printing heralds the end of the artisan.

That might be more of a problem.  If anyone can simply produce anything and they don't need to go to a specialist, like a gunsmith, those kinds of weapons might become an awful lot more common.  And they might look very, very convincing.
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orange

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Re: 3D Printed Pistol
« Reply #17 on: 04 Nov 2013, 23:11 »

  Likewise, most toy guns that look even moderately real come with a giant, orange tip on the end that alerts people that the gun isn't real.  In fact, it's getting harder to get toy guns that look real.  I remember having a few as a kid that looked somewhat genuine.  I think some toy companies were worried that they might be "encouraging violent behavior."

It didn't do me any harm, but kids these days....

I think it may have more to do with the reaction of police when a real looking firearm toy is pointed at them, ie shooting the holder/child.
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Vic Van Meter

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Re: 3D Printed Pistol
« Reply #18 on: 04 Nov 2013, 23:15 »

I kind of figured that, Orange.  The point we're making is that guns already don't always look like guns.  I think that's more of an issue of a toy really closely resembling a real gun, and the police having to unfortunately assume that even a 13 year old kid can get a hold of an assault rifle and will use it at will.  I'm not sure the untraceable gun will have that much of an effect on that particular kind of case.

Since we're posting pictures...

The aforementioned Steyr AUG


and aforementioned FN P90
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Katrina Oniseki

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Re: 3D Printed Pistol
« Reply #19 on: 04 Nov 2013, 23:17 »

What you might be getting at that would be a serious problem are guns made to look like things that are not, in any way, shape, or form, guns.  At least you'd need to be a pretty competent gunsmith to build a working gun out of a tape dispenser.  If you can model anything, in 3d, from plastic and you can get a working gun, you can just 3d print a gun that looks like a pen, or a coffee thermos, or a smartphone.  All of those would have to be fairly thick to accommodate even a .22 LR, but 3d printing heralds the end of the artisan.

That might be more of a problem.  If anyone can simply produce anything and they don't need to go to a specialist, like a gunsmith, those kinds of weapons might become an awful lot more common.  And they might look very, very convincing [resembling a harmless item].

As I read the start and middle of your post, I got frustrated because I felt you were completely missing my point a second time around. Then I got to the quoted part and breathed a sigh of relief. You do understand what worries me!

The examples of strange looking actual firearms doesn't really hold relevance to what I'm saying. Those are weapons developed by major defense contractors and firearm corporations, and have had billions of dollars in testing poured into them. Despite all that, they aren't easy to hide and most security agents will still recognize them as weapons. The Hello Kitty AR-15 is also a shitty disguise. If a TSA agent sees one of those things on X-Ray, you're going in a jail cell.

But what about something that had all of 2 days work put into it, printed out in your home office, and disguised to look like an electric pencil sharpener (complete with the power cord, paint and hole, and even a salvaged grinding wheel in case x-ray looks inside)? I hope you folks are realizing how easy it's going to be to make a fully functional spy gun. This isn't MI6 or the CIA making them. This is homegrown terrorist John Doe in his garage with some tools and a 3D printer. They'll come in all shapes and sizes, and recognizing them for what they are will quickly become difficult with current security checks.

EDIT: Before anyone rips me a new one for referencing dirty terrorists - I'm sorry. I felt Republican even posting this, but for the first time I am legitimately concerned.
« Last Edit: 04 Nov 2013, 23:24 by Katrina Oniseki »
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Vic Van Meter

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Re: 3D Printed Pistol
« Reply #20 on: 04 Nov 2013, 23:22 »

As I read the start and middle of your post, I got frustrated because I felt you were completely missing my point a second time around. Then I got to the quoted part and breathed a sigh of relief. You do understand what worries me!

Yeah, I totally get that.  I mean, that kind of thing worries me.  It's already sort of easy to get a gun around here and hide it.  In Ohio at least (I'm not sure if it's nationwide) it's illegal to carry a firearm into a place that serves alcohol and they very often search you at nightclubs and bars.  But will security check everything?  Including things that won't look anything like a gun?  What if a woman gets drunk, decides some other woman has crossed the line, and shoots her with a fake tube of lipstick?

It sounds ludicrous and stupid, and even when I write it, it sounds like I'm taking the piss.  But that's exactly the kind of thing that happens stateside.
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orange

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Re: 3D Printed Pistol
« Reply #21 on: 04 Nov 2013, 23:44 »

So, does that mean that:

1) No one should be allowed to own and access a 3-D printer without a background check or an entire legal regime created which makes owning/operating a printer not worth it for the individual (hard to implement considering that some printers are built out of parts from a hardware store)?

2) We should live entirely monitored* lives, in which any minor act that violates a law (or is conspiracy to violate a law), can and will result in fining or arrest?

*Monitored is different than transparent.  Monitored means that only a "special group" has access to the information, while transparency means anyone has access to the information.
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Katrina Oniseki

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Re: 3D Printed Pistol
« Reply #22 on: 05 Nov 2013, 02:24 »

Neither, honestly.

I think we'll just need to come to terms with the fact that "gun control" may no longer be feasible.

We may just have to learn self control as a species. For example, in the Roman Empire... was there sword control? What about in the Dark or Middle ages? Were swords and gunpowder weapons so tightly controlled in the Renaissance or Colonial history? This concerns me not because 'anyone can have guns', because anyone already can. What concerns me is what ramifications this will have on the legal and political scene. What worries me is the gross irresponsibility that will be shown not just by 'printed gun' owners, but by the politicians and courts that will attempt to combat them.

These new developments don't herald the end of days or violent revolution. They don't herald a new age of freedom and/or civil liberties.

They herald a very bitter battle between government and the people as both struggle to accept the reality of danger and contradiction of impossible regulation under current constitutional rights.

EDIT:

Try this on for size. Our government shut down for sixteen days, because of a political debate over healthcare.

What do you think the politicians and lobbying groups will do once the fight over this begins in earnest?
« Last Edit: 05 Nov 2013, 02:29 by Katrina Oniseki »
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Lyn Farel

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Re: 3D Printed Pistol
« Reply #23 on: 05 Nov 2013, 05:00 »

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Vic Van Meter

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Re: 3D Printed Pistol
« Reply #24 on: 05 Nov 2013, 07:22 »

So, does that mean that:

1) No one should be allowed to own and access a 3-D printer without a background check or an entire legal regime created which makes owning/operating a printer not worth it for the individual (hard to implement considering that some printers are built out of parts from a hardware store)?

2) We should live entirely monitored* lives, in which any minor act that violates a law (or is conspiracy to violate a law), can and will result in fining or arrest?

*Monitored is different than transparent.  Monitored means that only a "special group" has access to the information, while transparency means anyone has access to the information.

The problem nowadays is that solution number 1 isn't feasible, and solution number 2 has been the normal state of affairs for about a decade.  That's why this whole NSA thing can only get indifference out of me.  I've figured the government has been monitoring every bit of my communications since the Patriot Act.  I also figure they're probably the least threatening of the thousands, if not millions, of entities trying to get my information online.

The world's just a different place.  All they can do is toughen the laws they have.  Right now, committing a crime with a gun, any crime with a gun, adds an automatic year to any sentence.  I think the government definitely needs a registry of who owns what and I think, to own and carry a gun, you should be licensed.  You should need to renew it every year, proving to the governing body that you can fire it accurately and know gun safety protocols.  The government should have the ability to revoke your license to carry and even own them if you become mentally unstable or if you're convicted of using them in a crime.  A police officer should be able to, on noticing you carrying a weapon, walk over and ask to see if it's licensed.

I mean, we do it for cars, and those aren't usually built to kill people.
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Nmaro Makari

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Re: 3D Printed Pistol
« Reply #25 on: 05 Nov 2013, 07:59 »

Something none of us had yet considered:

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/.premium-1.533753

Quote
The staff of the Channel 10 television program "Tzinor Layla" (Nightline) printed a pistol on camera using a 3-D printer and twice managed to get it into the Knesset building in Jerusalem. 

A reporter on the program even managed to get within a few meters of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. The plastic pistol was tested in a firing range under the supervision of a former police commissioner, and successfully fired a live bullet at a cardboard target.

For all the problems associated with Israel, when they think you have a security problem, you have a security problem.
« Last Edit: 05 Nov 2013, 08:03 by Nmaro Makari »
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Nmaro Makari

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Re: 3D Printed Pistol
« Reply #26 on: 05 Nov 2013, 08:05 »


We may just have to learn self control as a species. For example, in the Roman Empire... was there sword control? What about in the Dark or Middle ages? Were swords and gunpowder weapons so tightly controlled in the Renaissance or Colonial history?

Little rusty on the specifics but a tentative yes to all of those.

Off the top of my head I recall that only certain people were allowed to carry a drawn sword in London  (to do so un-permitted was a punishable offence), and sometime in the 1600s there was a Law enacted stating specifically that only Parliament, not the King, could pass laws regarding armament.
« Last Edit: 05 Nov 2013, 08:10 by Nmaro Makari »
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Louella Dougans

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Re: 3D Printed Pistol
« Reply #27 on: 05 Nov 2013, 11:59 »

In the UK, this is already possible, afaik:
1. Buy fireworks over the counter.
2. Buy those toy cap-guns and similar toy fireworks, that use percussion explosives.
3. Make very crude and dangerous bullets out of household junk, using the percussion things to ignite the powder poured out of dismantled fireworks.

Step 4, is what this 3-D printer thing allows, with less technical skill than before.
4. Make a crude and dangerous firearm that will fire the handmade bullets.

5. CRIME

step 4, with these 3-d printer things, is what has been difficult in the past - requiring some machinery that might arouse suspicion. A 3-d printer, it is easier to claim "oh, just making toys, innit mate?".

The thing with metal detectors and all that, has implications for democracy, as regards being able to go to a member of parliaments office and ask them things. If these weapons mean that access to politicians becomes harder, then that is a problem.

How can a politician be a representative of their constituency, if the people of that constituency cannot meet with them ?
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Vic Van Meter

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Re: 3D Printed Pistol
« Reply #28 on: 05 Nov 2013, 12:02 »

In the UK, this is already possible, afaik:
1. Buy fireworks over the counter.
2. Buy those toy cap-guns and similar toy fireworks, that use percussion explosives.
3. Make very crude and dangerous bullets out of household junk, using the percussion things to ignite the powder poured out of dismantled fireworks.

Step 4, is what this 3-D printer thing allows, with less technical skill than before.
4. Make a crude and dangerous firearm that will fire the handmade bullets.

5. CRIME

step 4, with these 3-d printer things, is what has been difficult in the past - requiring some machinery that might arouse suspicion. A 3-d printer, it is easier to claim "oh, just making toys, innit mate?".

The thing with metal detectors and all that, has implications for democracy, as regards being able to go to a member of parliaments office and ask them things. If these weapons mean that access to politicians becomes harder, then that is a problem.

How can a politician be a representative of their constituency, if the people of that constituency cannot meet with them ?

Luckily, we've got some time before that becomes a major issue.  At present, 3d printed guns do not fire very well, nor can they fire very powerful ammunition even when they do.  When they're 3d printing something that's dangerous beyond twenty feet or so, we can start to panic.
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Louella Dougans

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Re: 3D Printed Pistol
« Reply #29 on: 05 Nov 2013, 12:12 »

Maybe.

In the UK anyway, the gun crime problem, there's far bigger issues with:
Replica conversions. Re-activation of defunct firearms. Smuggling of weapons from E.Europe.

Periodically, a newspaper will run a story about how it was "Easy to obtain a firearm from criminals, for low prices". Usually London crime gangs. Sometimes figures are quoted, often they are like "£50 to rent the gun, £400 if you shoot it". Which is not all that much compared to other things.
It's why some armed crimes are hard to solve - if the firearm is one that has been passed around in this manner, it may appear that the same people committed both crimes, which can send investigations in the wrong direction.
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