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[orange]

What Silas said.  To repeat, the Caldari megacorps are fanatical about preserving exactly one Caldari culture.  To step outside of the Caldari cultural mainstream and adopt a new religion would be career and social suicide.  Probably quite literally, as in Tea ceremony suicide.

8 Caldari Cultures...

[Lyn Farel]

I disagree, as long as it remains private and the guy does not make a fuss about it, and sufficient conditions are gathered around.

[Odelya]

I know about These things, but it really is more like the Catholic Church, which - as is apparently a Little klnown fact - is made up of 23 autonomous particular churches. Most doctrines are the same, but the autonomous churches have some leeway (e.g. in most autonomous churches that the Catholic Church is composed of, Priests can be married if they got married before getting invested as Priest.). Still, it's strictly hierarchically organized with an Institution on top that can decide on doctrinal matters for all member churches. The latter has never really been the case with the Eastern Orthodox churches, though the byzantine Emperor claimed such a position for a time (though did never manage to extend his influence on all Eastern Orthodox churches). That's also not how it is with the Empire, as not the Emperor, but the TC has the last word about changing doctrine.

The Theology Council is not merly a symbolic figurehead - nor is the Emperor - but has real powers in all churches of the Amarr Empire (save maybe the Khanid church, which really doesn't seem to have much of an organization, and is more in the Hand of holders than trained priests - it's an exception to the rule in many ways). All proper member churches are bound by TC rulings. This is not at all the Situation of orthodoxy where each Patriarch can decide on doctrinal matters as he sees fit in his see. The more centralized catholic hierarchy is a better model of how the Amarr Religion works.

I know that too, I am actually teaching a class on Christianity in the Middle East this term, where many of those groups are located, and that is why I am saying that the Amarr religion is more like orthodoxy when we look at the big picture, i. e. including Khanid and Ammatar. If you only look at the Empire only, then of course the resemblance to a more hierarchical structure with the final say on doctrinal matters becomes stronger. In short: The Amarr emperor is somewhat similar to the Byzantine emperor, while the Khanid are the Georgians sitting somewhere in the mountains. What they have in common are the first x councils and all that happened to a certain point in there history.

But regardless in which direction we argue, I think it depends on the angle from which we look at it, and since you are always eager to point out that Amarr =/= Space Catholics, it doesn't really matter what we think they resemble most. 

[Gottii]

What Silas said.  To repeat, the Caldari megacorps are fanatical about preserving exactly one Caldari culture.  To step outside of the Caldari cultural mainstream and adopt a new religion would be career and social suicide.  Probably quite literally, as in Tea ceremony suicide.

8 Caldari Cultures...

PF disagrees. 

Exact wording from Caldari Demographics:

 The corporations emphasize this in their enculturation process, enforcing a single Caldari culture and identity for the purposes of unity and cohesion

[Gottii]

I disagree, as long as it remains private and the guy does not make a fuss about it, and sufficient conditions are gathered around.

Its stated that

"they are extremely intolerant of individuals practicing non-Caldari customs in the State, commonly foreigners and expatriates"

Im not sure a fair reading of "extremely intolerant" is "so long as its private, no one cares".

[Katrina Oniseki]

I think there are shades of grey when it comes to how far the State will enforce the Caldari culture. Speaking as someone who has stayed in Caldari roleplay circles most of my time in EVE, I can safely state that while there is indeed a single overarching Caldari culture - the Eight Megas each have their own distinct flavor of that culture.

I'm not sure how much you've roleplayed Caldari, but I've seen very few of us assume the Caldari State is a monolithic unilateral code of culture that is agreed upon on the same level by everybody. Megacorporate differences are sharp and very strongly defined. I would caution you against using the most literal interpretation of PF to the detriment of realism. Something as large as the Caldari State with many hundreds of billions, if not trillions, of citizens cannot be completely unified under a single monoculture without being an Orwellian Police State which it is most certainly NOT.

That said, your use of that particular line of PF against the concept of a public preacher is sound and reasonable. The State may or may not tolerate that sort of behavior, but I stress again that there are significant differences based on location, jurisdiction, megacorporate affiliation, distance from the 'mainland State', and other concepts. Baracca would probably be in trouble if he's on a soap box on the streets of New Caldari Prime. He would have a much easier time preaching at a recreational facility in Black Rise or low-sec Lonetrek. He will not be in trouble at all if he's got his own little chapel on one of our stations within Imperial borders.

The fact is that religion is NOT enforced in the State, and that means there will be enclaves of Amarrian Monotheism in the State. Baracca already has an audience. The State is not as knee-jerk hostile to Amarr Faith as the Minmatar, though we are also not as openly accepting as the Federation. It's somewhere in-between.

There are always differences, and painting an entire faction with one single color is almost always a poorly considered choice. It may be the intention to unify the culutre. It may even be law. It may even be law across all eight megas. Even if all that is true, it probably still isn't actually completely unified.

[Gottii]

Im not stating that other way of playing the Caldari might not be more realistic, or even more enjoyable to play.  Im just stating where PF stands on this.

Im trying to "paint" the whole of Caldari with one brush because throughout PF Caldari it states that they try, very very hard, to have one united culture.  So Im merely trying to follow the PF in this regard.  Of course theyre not completely 100% similar.  But they certainly try, and seem to succeed more than anything in "real life" today.  Even if there are other variations on Caldari culture, which of course minor deviations exist, "tolerance of foreign views" would be a complete 180 from the way its written and presented.

And of course religion is enforced in the State, because a unified Caldari culture is enforced, and religion or lack thereof plays an important part of any culture.  The only way the State wouldnt enforce religious views of its citizens is if you argue that religion isnt any part of what people consider "culture", which strains the basic understanding of the word.  Caldari have their own religious beliefs.  Changing those beliefs would, if they have any relevance at all, change Caldari culture and traditions.  Thus, religious beliefs would certainly be monitored and enforced, they would have to be if you want to maintain cultural stability.  To say that they heavily and methodically enforce cultural purity in their citizens but allow those same citizens to practice whatever religion floats their boat is an illogical and unrealistic position to me.

Again, thats not "one line", thats numerous PF lines that I can point to.  And to be blunt, a couple lines of PF trumps no lines of PF.

[Gaven Lok ri]

As to the byzantine church hierarchy and Administration working so differently from the Roman catholic: I still maintain that this isn't the case, especially fot the middle ages: It's not as if emperors haven't had influence on the Pope and for a time it was even the byzantine emperor who placed the Bishops of Rome on their thrones. Basically both have the same ranks, from deacon over priest to bishop and they have the same Basic functions to fulfill. This isn't so surprising, given that until the Great Schism (1054) Eastern and Western Christianity were considering themselves a single church.

By declaring them to be so similar you are eliding a rather massive set of differences. Issues like who appoints the bishops are not the same on both sides of the Mediterranean. Heck, the bishops job is not a stable thing. Also, its notable that Archbishops and Metropolitan bishops aren't exactly the same things in the middle ages. This doesn't even begin to get into concepts like Cardinals. The people who fill the bishops spots aren't the same across the Mediterranean. Heck, they aren't the same from one region within orthodoxy to another or one region within catholicism to another. Buying the propoganda of both that they were ever "one church" is a massive mistake.

I don't think a Christian model is a good one for Amarr. Period. As said before, Amarr has no theology of the religion being separate from the state. This changes far too much. The catholic, and to a lesser extent orthodox, models both have major problems dealing with that. We need to abandon them. We can keep the titles and several particular elements, but the actual models do not work.

Also, Amarrian religion is ethnic. Just look at the scriptures. It is about the chosen. Those Khanid and Udorian nobles are marked as inferior because of the tiny percentage of their ancestry that is not True Amarr. If they are noble, they are almost certainly marrying into true Amarr families almost immediately, and I find it unlikely that there are many pure Khanid or pure Udorian holders anywhere in the Empire. Its likely that the definition of who the True Amarr are is a slowly expanding one, hence Udorians being incorporated into it at this point, but that doesn't make it a non-ethnic religion. Its not like ethnicities are static.

This idea just doesn't exist in a christian model. I think a Sasanian model or even an Islamic model works somewhat better, but only somewhat. Best is to throw out the models and make new ones.

One of the biggest things that needs to go is the word religion. Amarr doesn't have religion, it just has being Amarr, which incorporates what we call religion. Religion as we think about it now is a Christian (and particularly protestant) patterned concept, and it just doesn't apply well to cultures that don't separate between religion and not. A better model is the one we find in the ancient world, where there is a word for theology and belief and a different word for practice and the rules you follow. I think that in Amarr practice is going to trump belief, doing things by the rules that you are supposed to follow seems to be more important than what you believe.

To get back to bishops, the model of administration I see is that the church grows based on its conquests and populations. I would expect Bishops and Archbishops to be directly connected to the holdings of holders. I would expect individual holders to be directly connected to the process of chosing their top bishops. Where there is no holding there probably no bishop. I have seen no evidence that the TC is responsible for this selection process.

A noble would presumably also be the source of funding for a missionary. It seems unlikely to me that the people converted by the missionary would be considered an entity that could have a bishop, however.

The goal of converting Gallente or Matari would not, after all, be to have them leave Gallente or Matari space to come to Amarr. The Goal would be to convince them to help overthrow the Gallente or Matari governments and take everything to Amarr. There is no incentive for the Amarr to tell their new fifth column that they can be fully functioning members of the Amarr religion, rather it would be much more effective to say that they can only fully join the religion when they destroy their current overlords. Maybe offer a sins forgiven to those who die trying clause.

The reason I am skeptical that there would be many Amarrian missionaries among lower class or outcaste caldari is that those missionaries would jeopardize the much bigger goal of convincing the megacorps as they are that they should be incorporated into Amarr. Khanid style integration has got to be the target that Amarr is using to talk to the Caldari, it makes no sense for the Amarr to piss the Caldari off by organizing subversive movements. The payoff comes if they can convince one or more of the megacorps that it is in their interest to  merge Caldari social structure into the overall scheme of Amarr.

If there are missionaries to the lower class populations, I would expect that they would be deniable. IE they would be unlikely to be official bishop types and more likely to be crazy ascetic types.

[Katrina Oniseki]

Im just stating where PF stands on this.

No, you're stating where you think PF stands on this. It's your interpretation, and it seems quite different from mine and others in this thread. I apologize, but your interpretation is not the final law on it any more than mine or Vic's is.

And of course religion is enforced in the State, because a unified Caldari culture is enforced, and religion or lack thereof plays an important part of any culture.  The only way the State wouldnt enforce religious views of its citizens is if you argue that religion isnt any part of what people consider "culture", which strains the basic understanding of the word.  Caldari have their own religious beliefs.  Changing those beliefs would, if they have any relevance at all, change Caldari culture and traditions.  Thus, religious beliefs would certainly be monitored and enforced, they would have to be if you want to maintain cultural stability.  To say that they heavily and methodically enforce cultural purity in their citizens but allow those same citizens to practice whatever religion floats their boat is an illogical and unrealistic position to me.

Not quite.

Wayism is not an evangelical religion, and most Caldari take it as simply a fact of the universe, not a truth to be spread. The general attitude of most Caldari to nonbelievers is that it is their right to believe in whatever god or gods they like, as Wayism is very much centered on the Caldari people themselves anyway. The Achura, and to a lesser extent the Intaki, are considered to have a different understanding of the same realities, which is one of the reasons that the Caldari were eager to incorporate both into the State. Atheist Caldari are not uncommon, and not treated with any particular scorn, though many go through the motions of Wayism purely out of cultural tradition rather than any real belief.

https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Caldari_spirituality#Temples_and_Clergy

Religion is not enforced. I do not consider what you quoted to run counter to what I quoted, and I certainly do not consider what you quoted to say religion is enforced. The fact is that we're both extrapolating from PF, and it doesn't state one way or another whether Baracca can or cannot preach in State territory. I think this discussion is largely academic because of that. In the end, Vic is world-building in an area of PF that is full of uncertainty, which is the entire reason we have almost ten pages of full blooded debate over it.

If it was a clear cut case of "PF says no", this discussion would be moot. I don't think that's the case. I think there is wiggle room here, and I think he's well within it - though it might be a bit too snug in there.

At this point I'm just going to extend an olive branch to Baracca, and attempt to extract myself from the debate. Vic, if you want, you can say he is preaching in Ishukone areas (Syndicate Ishukone Station, maybe?), and we'll back you up on it.

EDIT: Removed flamebait material.

[Lyn Farel]

I disagree, as long as it remains private and the guy does not make a fuss about it, and sufficient conditions are gathered around.

Its stated that

"they are extremely intolerant of individuals practicing non-Caldari customs in the State, commonly foreigners and expatriates"

Im not sure a fair reading of "extremely intolerant" is "so long as its private, no one cares".

Not what I said.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

Also, Amarrian religion is ethnic. Just look at the scriptures. It is about the chosen. Those Khanid and Udorian nobles are marked as inferior because of the tiny percentage of their ancestry that is not True Amarr. If they are noble, they are almost certainly marrying into true Amarr families almost immediately, and I find it unlikely that there are many pure Khanid or pure Udorian holders anywhere in the Empire. Its likely that the definition of who the True Amarr are is a slowly expanding one, hence Udorians being incorporated into it at this point, but that doesn't make it a non-ethnic religion. Its not like ethnicities are static.

As we've talked about the other things directly and come to agreement, I'd like to contend this view: Amarr started out as a ethnic 'religion', but I think there has been a Change to an ethic, rather than ethnic Religion. The Scripture Points at this, I think, quite obviously when Amarr are selected not by ethnical or racial properties, but by ethical ones. Amarr is who lives righteously and in fear of God. I'd agree that there are still vestiges of ethnical motives there, though.

One of the biggest things that needs to go is the word religion. Amarr doesn't have religion, it just has being Amarr, which incorporates what we call religion. Religion as we think about it now is a Christian (and particularly protestant) patterned concept, and it just doesn't apply well to cultures that don't separate between religion and not. A better model is the one we find in the ancient world, where there is a word for theology and belief and a different word for practice and the rules you follow. I think that in Amarr practice is going to trump belief, doing things by the rules that you are supposed to follow seems to be more important than what you believe.

While I agree that there's a Problem with applying 'religion' as a term to anything but the Abrahamic religions, i think it's not entirely useless or besides the point. I agree that orthopraxy does trump orthodoxy in a sense in Amarr: Orthodox positions aren't required from the usual citizen and practitioner. On the other Hand, what is considered orthopractic is certainly informed by a doxology of Amarr and it is within this that an orthodoxy will be established. Clerics, in general, will have to play by the doxastic rules of the TC.

To get back to bishops, the model of administration I see is that the church grows based on its conquests and populations. I would expect Bishops and Archbishops to be directly connected to the holdings of holders. I would expect individual holders to be directly connected to the process of chosing their top bishops. Where there is no holding there probably no bishop. I have seen no evidence that the TC is responsible for this selection process.

I think it's a mixture: Holders can bring their own clerics to their Domains. Still, some other clerics might be traditionally established there, at least that's what the PF suggests imho in the case of the Ammatar church. Though Ardishapur could promote the orthodox church of Amarr, he couldn't simply eject the Ammatar church, it seems.

A noble would presumably also be the source of funding for a missionary. It seems unlikely to me that the people converted by the missionary would be considered an entity that could have a bishop, however.

I think we have good reason to assume that it's mainly Holders that fund a missionary. (Ardishapur seems to do that.) Still, I think there might be cases where churches within Amarr do this as well. Clerics can be quite influential and probably rich in Amarr it seems. So, one could imagine them sending out missionaries on their own. How a missionary would fit in the ecclesiastical hierarchy is up to debate, imho. I don't see strong arguments for wither position.

The goal of converting Gallente or Matari would not, after all, be to have them leave Gallente or Matari space to come to Amarr. The Goal would be to convince them to help overthrow the Gallente or Matari governments and take everything to Amarr. There is no incentive for the Amarr to tell their new fifth column that they can be fully functioning members of the Amarr religion, rather it would be much more effective to say that they can only fully join the religion when they destroy their current overlords. Maybe offer a sins forgiven to those who die trying clause.

I think that the Amarr can be quite subtle, there. The Khanid were won over without a civil war by converting them all, apparently, with some exceptions. In the end, though, full Integration in the Empire would be the Goal, I agree.

The reason I am skeptical that there would be many Amarrian missionaries among lower class or outcaste caldari is that those missionaries would jeopardize the much bigger goal of convincing the megacorps as they are that they should be incorporated into Amarr. Khanid style integration has got to be the target that Amarr is using to talk to the Caldari, it makes no sense for the Amarr to piss the Caldari off by organizing subversive movements. The payoff comes if they can convince one or more of the megacorps that it is in their interest to  merge Caldari social structure into the overall scheme of Amarr.

If there are missionaries to the lower class populations, I would expect that they would be deniable. IE they would be unlikely to be official bishop types and more likely to be crazy ascetic types.

With this I agree entirely.

[orange]

What Silas said.  To repeat, the Caldari megacorps are fanatical about preserving exactly one Caldari culture.  To step outside of the Caldari cultural mainstream and adopt a new religion would be career and social suicide.  Probably quite literally, as in Tea ceremony suicide.

8 Caldari Cultures...

PF disagrees. 

Exact wording from Caldari Demographics:

 The corporations emphasize this in their enculturation process, enforcing a single Caldari culture and identity for the purposes of unity and cohesion

I can use the same sentence to argue that the corporations all have different encultuation processes and therefore fail to create a single Caldari culture, but at least 8 different cultures that bear some core semblance to each other.

[Ollie]

I think Kat's point about culture vs. vaguely different flavours of that same culture is well made.

I liken it to China, which likes to present itself to the rest of the world as a homogenous mass of 1.5 billion people against the world but on closer examination has one dominant population with its own culture and many other minority ethnic populations each with their own small influences on the greater national character. After spending a little time in that country, I figured out that China's just as diverse as most other places around the world - they just keep their internal differences as quiet as possible.

[Veikitamo]

Having drunk from the cup of tiger's blood the last week (cocaine is a hell of a drug) I'll drop some of the affectations.

But if you find that silly, I'm not really certain what to say. I mean... If I might be a little frank, are you sure you actually like MMO roleplaying, such as it is? Do you enjoy the community? Are you having fun, here?

I would not describe myself as a roleplayer, no. The entire concept behind writing what Veik wrote was to take a jab at the concept of mutual validation I see as inherent with roleplayers, and in fact it would have not been written, if in the first since what was initially attacked was the validation process as regards Odelya and Constantin. Yet, they are not unique to me in any way, they are simply symptomatic of roleplayers in general.

I can see it coming out also with the following thoughts here:

There is no way to substantiate that “Pyre Falcon Defence Combine is the Secure Commerce Commission registered conglomerate of subsidiary private military corporations acting in the interests of Kaalakiota. Wiyrkomi and Lai Dai Corporations” etc. etc. But what is the basis of rp then?

So what are we going to make out of this? Shall we start a game like this:

“You are not a duchess/subsidary of Lai Dai, because you can’t prove it”
“Look it up in the book of records/at the secure commerce commission”
“I did, but I didn’t find you”
“You took the wrong book of records/secure commerce commission”
“No, I didn’t, you are a lier!”
“No, you are, you are!”

As a consequence I think Veikitamo Gesakaarin’s posting is little different from what she is criticising, it is basically doing the same, but on a meta level. The big difference however is that those “unsubstantiated claims” are enriching our rp and stories, while the critique is basically destroying the foundations of it.

I have nothing against a bashing of Odelya—but please in way Nicoletta, Rodj and Anabella did it.

Actually I rather like it. It is good to see that some RP organizations continue to be acknowledged by CCP in some way for what they do, like PIE, PYRE, I-RED, CVA, EM, UK, etc.

What seems to have been fundamentally misunderstood here is that I don't play this game for the validation of others. I'm not some easy lay at a dive bar that needs to be told how great my tits are before getting propositioned with, "Hey babe, are you DTF?" I don't play for the recognition game that appears to drive so many roleplayers, I didn't ask CCP for a gold star written in yellow text, nor do I need the approval of others to do what I wish in Eve.

How I immerse myself in the world I have been given is to utilize rationalization, contextualization, and perspective which can be seen simply in the Pyre Falcon info:

It's an in-game corporation, what is an in-game corporation? Well, I guess it's a corporation that operates under CONCORD jurisdiction which taken further is probably the SCC because they manage all this economic shit, so they'd probably handle matters of incorporation and securities for freelance capsuleers.

Well it's an alliance. What is a corporate alliance? Well it could also be a corporate conglomerate, hence why it's defined as a, "Combine".

Well what does it do? Well it works in the -interests- of Kaalakiota, Wiyrkomi, and Lai Dai. Since it is in effect independent and SCC registered this is represented at a base level by it doing mission work for those corps in-game, framing its actions in that context, and simply put it doesn't mean explaining shit to anyone because at the end of the day as a deniable asset company having a non-concrete, nebulous relationship makes sense.

So no, I'm not interested in playing the roleplay game of just making whatever shit up I want, then getting into mind-numbing discussion trying to justify it to other roleplayers so they can validate the existence of my little imaginary sandcastles I've created for myself. This just leads, in my view, to the rather hilarious circumstance of roleplay essentially becoming the most mediocre of popularity contests that drives people forever in the search of others to validate and endorse their crap.

Why would I want to participate in that? If I wanted to play the game roleplayers seem to be playing I'd:

- Go play a tabletop RP
- Go play the Sims2 for all the faux relationship stuff
- Go play Second Life

But I'm playing Eve, so how I immerse myself in the world is by first and foremost valuing its interactions and ability to affect the world through in-game action. This differs in my mind to what roleplayers seem to do in which the focus is on changing the world through writing about it -- yet if everyone just ignored what was written by roleplayers (which most do) nothing really actually changes does it? In effect it's a system of rather hilarious delusions, which is how my own characters treats what most roleplayers do -- a bunch of apparently delusional capsuleers taking each others claims seriously to hilarious effect. I mean damn, most roleplayers' come off as the type who'd probably take the National Enquirer or any other tabloid press seriously and think Bigfoot is going to molest them the way my own character sees it from an in-game perspective.

Also, I'd say roleplayers and their characters actually add to my own sense of immersion. After all, it's hardly realistic to me to have a world where there doesn't exist people who are always seeking the validation and approval of others: whether out of a need for fame, popularity, recognition or just good old vanity now is it?

Oddly this is the most mind-blowing/disruptive piece of PF for me ever. I don't hate it... it just really changes my view of the EVEverse.

What do you think it means if CCP says that barely any capsuleers ever choose to interact with baseliners, and I would say 80% of RP'ers RP as at least intermittently doing so? Are the members of the Summit unusually sociable? Particularly sane?

It has been a long-running pseudo-joke that this is the case, yes. Your average (non-RPing) player is typically portrayed or referred to in a similar fashion to the 'villain' capsuleer from the Burning Life - being a capsuleer is little more than a game to them.

Effectively, roleplayers (in the sense that we consider ourselves roleplayers and the average EVE player not a roleplayer) are as much a minority in the playerbase as the characters we usually portray are among the population of 'unbound' capsuleers (ie, player characters).

Well, we have a winner as to just how I'm "roleplaying" the capsuleer known as Veikitamo Gesakaarin.

No no no. You're doing it wrong.

You roll 1d6 to determine if you get to light it or not. The 1d20 is for how much of the ten-minute cycle you last before getting blapped.

Then you roll an additional 2d20 to see how many ships come through the cyno. If you get two ones, your titan jumps instead of bridging.

*A wild Morlag appears in the forest
*Refers to character sheet
*Selects and casts "Power Word: Orgasm"
*Rolls d20. 20! Critical success.
*Wild Morlag is incapacitated for 1d4+1 hours due to overwhelming sense of pleasure.

[Odelya]

Having drunk from the cup of tiger's blood the last week (cocaine is a hell of a drug) I'll drop some of the affectations.

etc.

If you don’t want to play the approval game, then why do you put your views on roleplay into an in-character perspective? Denying the claims of others, how well the may be grounded and executed, leads to the paradox of only adding flavour to their claims. And making such a posting on IGS is no less part of the approval game. As I said what you are doing is little different from what you are criticising, but you don’t seem to see the paradox.