Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Odelya]

Hey,

reading this I found it quite amusing, but also unsuitable for the IGS. It is basically an OOC related issue presented in an IC way. It is just not possible to substantiate that something is not substantiated. Of course, there are also no ways to substantiate claims, not even for something like “I am sitting in my garden drinking coffee”. There is no way to substantiate that “Pyre Falcon Defence Combine is the Secure Commerce Commission registered conglomerate of subsidiary private military corporations acting in the interests of Kaalakiota. Wiyrkomi and Lai Dai Corporations” etc. etc. But what is the basis of rp then?

So what are we going to make out of this? Shall we start a game like this:

“You are not a duchess/subsidary of Lai Dai, because you can’t prove it”
“Look it up in the book of records/at the secure commerce commission”
“I did, but I didn’t find you”
“You took the wrong book of records/secure commerce commission”
“No, I didn’t, you are a lier!”
“No, you are, you are!”

As a consequence I think Veikitamo Gesakaarin’s posting is little different from what she is criticising, it is basically doing the same, but on a meta level. The big difference however is that those “unsubstantiated claims” are enriching our rp and stories, while the critique is basically destroying the foundations of it.

I have nothing against a bashing of Odelya—but please in way Nicoletta, Rodj and Anabella did it.

[Gwen Ikiryo]

Roleplay is, at it's incredibly dorky core, essentially the practice of making things up and believing in the things other people make up.

If we stop doing the latter at all (as opposed to just overlooking the occasional thing or two that suspends our disbelief), the entire thing falls to pieces, and we just become a bunch of children playing make-believe with ourselves, in my opinion.

[Gaven Lok ri]

I think world building for noble Amarr chars is a pretty important thing. Something like 2/3rds of the True Amarr characters are supposed to be noble, so its really not overboard to have many many different backgrounds that involve owning large chunks of real estate.

I think a good rule of thumb is avoid crossing lines that would give you more power in game than you actually have as a player. If you keep your ranks at "Holder" rather than getting too elaborate with the fancier titles and if you keep your holdings as relatively small in the grand scheme of things you are doing a good (and neccessary) job creating a noble character without stepping on too many toes.

I am really not a fan of the "yes you are"/"no you aren't" style of argument that was one of the themes of the threads being mocked by Veik. There has to be a better way to handle that sort of conflict, though I haven't quite put my finger on what can be done once a disagreement like that gets going. I tried to move it away by making the whole discussion about bigger things, but while I have had fun trotting out 8 year old anti-tetrimon arguments and lots of fire and brimstone... I don't think I was quite able to drag the discussion far enough from the "Yes you are, no you aren't dynamic."

[Pieter Tuulinen]

Hey,

reading this I found it quite amusing, but also unsuitable for the IGS. It is basically an OOC related issue presented in an IC way. It is just not possible to substantiate that something is not substantiated. Of course, there are also no ways to substantiate claims, not even for something like “I am sitting in my garden drinking coffee”. There is no way to substantiate that “Pyre Falcon Defence Combine is the Secure Commerce Commission registered conglomerate of subsidiary private military corporations acting in the interests of Kaalakiota. Wiyrkomi and Lai Dai Corporations” etc. etc. But what is the basis of rp then?

So what are we going to make out of this? Shall we start a game like this:

“You are not a duchess/subsidary of Lai Dai, because you can’t prove it”
“Look it up in the book of records/at the secure commerce commission”
“I did, but I didn’t find you”
“You took the wrong book of records/secure commerce commission”
“No, I didn’t, you are a lier!”
“No, you are, you are!”

As a consequence I think Veikitamo Gesakaarin’s posting is little different from what she is criticising, it is basically doing the same, but on a meta level. The big difference however is that those “unsubstantiated claims” are enriching our rp and stories, while the critique is basically destroying the foundations of it.

I have nothing against a bashing of Odelya—but please in way Nicoletta, Rodj and Anabella did it.

Actually... Pyre Falcon's affiliation with Kaalakiota is CANON. Falcon substantiated it during the legal case that kicked off Heth's slide from power.

[Ollie]

It is basically an OOC related issue presented in an IC way.

...

As a consequence I think Veikitamo Gesakaarin’s posting is little different from what she is criticising, it is basically doing the same, but on a meta level.

I have to admit that after a read-through of the IGS posting this was the feel I got from it too. It's amusing and clever, but at its core it seems to be an IC complaint on something that Veik's player has railed OOCly against in another thread on these boards.

That said, it doesn't make it wrong and I'm not convinced it's destroying the foundation of anything - particularly if one can point to in-character examples of what the post is satirising.

[Lyn Farel]

It mostly depends of what Veik(C) - or Veik(P) ? that's the damn issue there, it's OOC/IC bleedover - is targeting, either the quiet holder in his lonely tiny asteroid or the son of Jamyl... The issue I resent is that it's basically targeting both and putting them all in the same basket while remaining very vague and elusive about it, like he has done in the other backstage thread.

Hey,

reading this I found it quite amusing, but also unsuitable for the IGS. It is basically an OOC related issue presented in an IC way. It is just not possible to substantiate that something is not substantiated. Of course, there are also no ways to substantiate claims, not even for something like “I am sitting in my garden drinking coffee”. There is no way to substantiate that “Pyre Falcon Defence Combine is the Secure Commerce Commission registered conglomerate of subsidiary private military corporations acting in the interests of Kaalakiota. Wiyrkomi and Lai Dai Corporations” etc. etc. But what is the basis of rp then?

So what are we going to make out of this? Shall we start a game like this:

“You are not a duchess/subsidary of Lai Dai, because you can’t prove it”
“Look it up in the book of records/at the secure commerce commission”
“I did, but I didn’t find you”
“You took the wrong book of records/secure commerce commission”
“No, I didn’t, you are a lier!”
“No, you are, you are!”

As a consequence I think Veikitamo Gesakaarin’s posting is little different from what she is criticising, it is basically doing the same, but on a meta level. The big difference however is that those “unsubstantiated claims” are enriching our rp and stories, while the critique is basically destroying the foundations of it.

I have nothing against a bashing of Odelya—but please in way Nicoletta, Rodj and Anabella did it.

Actually... Pyre Falcon's affiliation with Kaalakiota is CANON. Falcon substantiated it during the legal case that kicked off Heth's slide from power.

I didn't know that...

Do not take it as an offense but that's a consequential fallacy. It's not because Falcon canonized it that Pyre Falcon considered itself to be associated with KK, it's because PYRE started since the very beginning to say that they were affiliated with KK, and then did sufficient deeds ingame to attract Falcon's attention, for him to eventually legitimize their KK status. In the end, PYRE did the exact same thing at the beginning before it being canonized.

Unfortunately for half if not more factioned RPers who also claim to be a subsidiary of X, or being mandated by X, this is barely going to happen anytime soon. To me it feels pretty much like "I got legitimized by CCP, no matter how it was before, and now I feel that I have the right to curbstomp everyone that has yet to be legitimized by Falcon".

[Pieter Tuulinen]

I don't presume to speak for Veikitamo. I don't presume to defend what he wrote or explain why he wrote it.

That said... That said...

Whether you like it or not. Whether you approve of it or not. Whether you enjoy it or not. Pyre Falcon's relationship with Kaalakiota has received 'official' sanction. As you say, it was a sort of reward for steadfast support of a faction through forum posts, through fighting in the warzone and through participation in live-events.

Now - understand. I'm not claiming some sort of pre-eminence because of this and I'm not claiming that we 'earned' it where others haven't. I'm just pointing out that when Pyre Falcon claims to be associated with Kaalakiota NOW, it does so with some degree of justification in canon.

[Lyn Farel]

Actually I rather like it. It is good to see that some RP organizations continue to be acknowledged by CCP in some way for what they do, like PIE, PYRE, I-RED, CVA, EM, UK, etc.

[Ollie]

At some level, the majority of - if not all -  IC actions are based off OOC motives.

If I want my character to go camp a gate in null-sec, mine in highsec, chat with people in RP channels or whatever else I decide to do the in-game/in-character action starts with me logging into EVE and deciding as a player what my plan for today is.

What I then do is frame an IC motive around that.

I don't really see that Veik's done anything different here, which is why I don't think it's wrong in any sense. Veik's player may have decided they had enough and instead of bringing it here they decided to frame it ICly which is entirely their perogative. It looks like drama I don't really want to get involved in ICly so I'm going to stay out of it on the IGS but it's not something I'm going to criticise them for OOCly either.

[Iwan Terpalen]

Note that there's no material benefit to PYRE being "legit," unless you're of the opinion that a few mentions in colored text is manna from heaven you can't live your life without. It doesn't place us in a position of authority over other double-K affiliated entities, or let us make claims about their legitimacy in any way.

As for the proliferation and inflation of Amarrian nobility claims - eh. Well. I have a soft spot for average Joes, and the low numbers of visible Amarrians who aren't dukes, bishops or what-have-you does irk me a little. It's a legitimate background option, but it seems like a tragedy of the commons in progress.

[Arnulf Ogunkoya]

Note that there's no material benefit to PYRE being "legit," unless you're of the opinion that a few mentions in colored text is manna from heaven you can't live your life without. It doesn't place us in a position of authority over other double-K affiliated entities, or let us make claims about their legitimacy in any way.

As for the proliferation and inflation of Amarrian nobility claims - eh. Well. I have a soft spot for average Joes, and the low numbers of visible Amarrians who aren't dukes, bishops or what-have-you does irk me a little. It's a legitimate background option, but it seems like a tragedy of the commons in progress.

That said, how influential is your average Joe in the empire & what are their chances of getting into capsule training? I take your point though. It would be nice to see more of the poor sentient made good alongside all the children of privilege.

[Lyn Farel]

Yes, it would be nice. I always regret not having made one.

[Arnulf Ogunkoya]

Thinking about it I suspect I might have made Arnulf a bit of the exception. He's the child of a soldier (who is now a junior officer) and a middle-rank Urban Management official. I suspect that puts him comfortably in the top 10% of Minmatar society even before he became a capsuleer.

[Samira Kernher]

As for the proliferation and inflation of Amarrian nobility claims - eh. Well. I have a soft spot for average Joes, and the low numbers of visible Amarrians who aren't dukes, bishops or what-have-you does irk me a little. It's a legitimate background option, but it seems like a tragedy of the commons in progress.

The thing is that Amarrian capsuleers are not average Joes. Going by the in-game backgrounds, Amarrian capsuleers are nobility or highly-successful wealthy commoners. It's a very class-conscious society, the only non-wealthy commoners who could actually get funding would likely be those who have caught the eye of someone of higher class. The government almost certainly wouldn't fund (and probably wouldn't even test) the common man. This is very fitting when considering that Amarr typically have very few capsuleers compared to other races (going by race distribution statistics).

I do believe people should stop trying to reach for greater and greater heights, though. Full system and planetary Holders just doesn't seem all that likely to me. In fact, I would expect that most Amarrian capsuleers would be lesser sons and daughters, those who don't get the Holder title but are still noble by blood relation.

Also, the idea that people can't have any kind of association with a NPC corporation just because they can't join that corporation in-game is absurd to me. Especially since players used to be able to, and this was only removed later as a means of consolidating players into a few individual NPC corporations. Which brings to mind... are we going to start claiming that characters who are in the NPC corporations are actually IN those corporations ICly, even when it makes no sense? Come on. Let's not stifle creativity here.

[Desiderya]

We're playing a game that gives you quite a lot of in-game opportunities to create content and gain achievements, so it's a bit of a shame that so much 'worldbuilding' is done outside the game's sphere and in a scale that is super important. There's a difference between, say, the description of colonies and entities within 4th's sphere of influence and me creating a character that is a super important head honcho of a few million people in his off time, hidden somewhere unreachable ( by in game means ).