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[Havohej]

I take the opposite view:

No you didn't :p

[Nicoletta Mithra]

I still claim it's contrary, even though it's certainly not contradictory, entirely.

[Gwen Ikiryo]

To me, roleplay ceases to become fun or interesting when I know the person I'm doing it with harbors ill will to me OOCly, or has shown a lack of basic respect for me in such a context.

A good IC enemy is someone you can go chat with at the end of the day about your characters actions. How can one do that if the conflict has spilled over into OOC lies and disrespect, as well? Where does the roleplay end, in the the context of that person?

I've no interest in engaging in anything that blurs the lines in such a manner, in the same sense that I'm not interested in playing monopoly with someone who steals my hotels when I'm in the bathroom.

It's a valid part of the game, of course - But in my opnion, an IC dead end.

[Shintoko Akahoshi]

It seems pretty obvious to me that you can't consider a corp theft to be a purely IC act unless the entirety of recruiting the thief was merely an IC act. Every corporation I've been in has included at least a little OOC chat as part of the interviewing process, usually to talk about things like OOC expectations and to get a feel for someone. Because of this, there is an element of OOC trust that has to be established here. This OOC trust is betrayed by the thief.

In Saede's case, it sounds like there's quite a bit of OOC trust going on: where no corporation in its right mind would actually give the keys to the vault to each and every new employee, Axlvp does. They do this because (as Saede says) that's part of the OOC culture of the corporation. It's the equivalent of taking money from the monopoly bank while your friends are at the door paying for the pizza.

[Gwen Ikiryo]

It seems pretty obvious to me that you can't consider a corp theft to be a purely IC act unless the entirety of recruiting the thief was merely an IC act. Every corporation I've been in has included at least a little OOC chat as part of the interviewing process, usually to talk about things like OOC expectations and to get a feel for someone. Because of this, there is an element of OOC trust that has to be established here. This OOC trust is betrayed by the thief.

In Saede's case, it sounds like there's quite a bit of OOC trust going on: where no corporation in its right mind would actually give the keys to the vault to each and every new employee, Axlvp does. They do this because (as Saede says) that's part of the OOC culture of the corporation. It's the equivalent of taking money from the monopoly bank while your friends are at the door paying for the pizza.

Agreed.

If Eve were a game with a much stronger and more immersive roleplay community, where one could be hired in character, meet your corpmates in character, work alongside them, and, possibly, steal from them in character, all without ever needing to interact OOCly once - I would feel differently about it. But as long as there's an element of OOC deception, it transcends roleplay, and can't be considered such, I don't think.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

Don't know: Getting into my current corp was something that practically happened only IC. Still I wouldn't do some corp thievery shenanigans, nor would I think of them as any more acceptable OOC, I guess

[Lyn Farel]

That's precisely why I utterly despise corp heists in the first place. Since it happens on an OOC basis - on various scales, it can either be very limited between people that you don't trust, but usually you have to hand out the keys to important assets to people they trust, making the job of the thief to actually earn that trust and then, break it - it shows a serious lack of respect, education and manners, and  not only for the character (for which I couldn't care less) but also for the player itself.

Of course a lot will bring up the usual fallacy that CCP encourages/condone it so it's ok to do it.

[Streya]

In Saede's case, it sounds like there's quite a bit of OOC trust going on: where no corporation in its right mind would actually give the keys to the vault to each and every new employee, Axlvp does. They do this because (as Saede says) that's part of the OOC culture of the corporation. It's the equivalent of taking money from the monopoly bank while your friends are at the door paying for the pizza.

To be fair, it's pretty easy to take things from a Ship Maintenance Array. We actually have internal policy to help mitigate losses due theft. Wormhole corporations are notoriously easy to steal from simply because everyone in the corporation needs access to the SMA, and so literally anyone can launch ships and fly them if they have the skills to do so. Of course we've found ways around the mechanical limitations, but it does feel kinda bad that we have to do it at all. Because I agree, we are trying to foster a certain friendly, laid-back culture. But this is the dark world of EVE, and being a naive is deadly 

As for whether or not corp theft is IC/RP, I would say it depends on whether or not every character involved in the theft got together IC and planned it all out. For example if Ava Starfire, Ghost Hunter, and Rodj Blake got together and stole hasbrowns from a corp, I'd probably assume it was an OOC event taking place unless there was some sort of IC explanation for the composition of the team. Of course if the theft was IC it would be nice if roleplay were attached to it. No offense to Bai and gang, but the IC reasoning provided for the theft strikes me as more a quick handwave to justify an impulsive act rather than a truly fleshed out motive. Which is fine: I'm sure we've all done impulsive things to sate our OOC desires and later came up with a handwave (pretty much all of my solo kills fall into this category), but in this case it certainly didn't help make the heist look any cleaner or more impressive IMO.

Could have been more fun and devastating, but we survived and are stronger for it. I'll be carefully watching Field of Scarecrows and how they develop, and wish them luck and danger in equal amounts 

[Havohej]

Of course a lot will bring up the usual fallacy that CCP encourages/condone it so it's ok to do it.

This isn't a fallacy.  CCP does encourage this behaviour in their game, and so, in their game, it is okay to do it.

In boxing, it is encouraged to punch another person in the face.  And so, in boxing, it is okay to punch another person in the face.

Outside of boxing, it is not okay to punch another person in the face. (unless you're participating in another sport where such is encouraged, such as MMA fighting)

Outside of Eve-Online, it is not okay to rob your employers blind.  (unless you're playing a different game where such is encouraged, such as... oh, wait.  I can't think of a single one!  Guess that uniqueness makes Eve-Online awesome \o/ )

[Lyn Farel]

Of course a lot will bring up the usual fallacy that CCP encourages/condone it so it's ok to do it.

This isn't a fallacy.  CCP does encourage this behaviour in their game, and so, in their game, it is okay to do it.

In boxing, it is encouraged to punch another person in the face.  And so, in boxing, it is okay to punch another person in the face.

Outside of boxing, it is not okay to punch another person in the face. (unless you're participating in another sport where such is encouraged, such as MMA fighting)

Outside of Eve-Online, it is not okay to rob your employers blind.  (unless you're playing a different game where such is encouraged, such as... oh, wait.  I can't think of a single one!  Guess that uniqueness makes Eve-Online awesome \o/ )

The issue is not robbing your employers. The issue is a trust / friendship / social issue, which you do not have in boxing.

The fallacy is making the mistake to make a parallel between what's real and what's not. We all play video games where killing and so on are common place, and it's ok to do it. It's only simulation, the way boxing is simulation, and corp heist is simulation.

The betrayal of the players however, is not. Thus why I asked the rhetorical question that "are we all doing it wrong by keeping friends in that game ?". For which you answered that yes, and I can agree to that.

[Mr. Smuggles]

I find it interesting that corp heists are getting such hate from the RP community at large.  Quite a few of us started playing because we heard of a certain heist, one that ended spectacularly, and was within the RP community.  And today, the person who orchestrated and pulled off that heist is a well-liked and respected member of the RP community.  Yet, heists are somehow off limits?

The fact is that if totally IC heists could be pulled off, that'd be great.  But that would be like trying to choreograph a PvP fight blow-for-blow.  People tend not to like being in a "losing" scenario with their characters.  Players may arrange for Bad Things to happen, but in a controlled way that meets their approval.  In short, the answer to "Can I rob your hangar of 3 bil worth of stuff" is generally going to get the same answer as "Can I blow up your 3 bil isk ship?"  As such, you don't seek the OOC approval of the player beforehand, you just do it.

tl;dr:  Players will nearly always use OOC info to avoid serious loss to their characters, corp thieves can't give OOC notice.

[Havohej]

...corp heist is simulation.

The betrayal of the players however, is not.

Ah, right.  Of course, there is that.  For some reason I read your previous post as talking only about the act of pixel theft itself, rather than also the OOC social impact.  My fault entirely, now that I re-read the other post.

To that point, I agree but sorta disagree as well.  I mean, yeah, it sucks to have one's trust betrayed and I think it's a shitty thing to do to be the betrayer - provided that the betrayer went into the friendship honestly to begin with and for whatever reason just decided to break it.

I mean, if I join a corp with the intent of eventually gaining roles/trust and robbing them, then everything I do with that corporation will be toward the intended end.  On my end, the friendship is never real.  It's all social engineering.  Will it be wrong to betray their trust, given that on their end the friendship formed is real?  On the one hand, yes, on the other hand no.

In that scenario, you may call "It's just a game" a fallacy, and may even be right, but I still don't... because that is the game being played by that individual.  If that makes sense... it did in my head, not as sure now that I read it on-screen.

[Makkal]

Maybe the issue is more to have friends in Eve.

Then are we all doing it wrong ?

In fact, yes.  I think that, because of what EVE and New Eden and Capsuleers are all about, having friends in EVE really IS doing it wrong.

For me, EVE and New Eden is about risk vs reward. I live in Las Vegas, so I'll use a casino analogy.

Our PCs are in a giant casino called 'New Eden.' Some people head to the blackjack table, bet small amounts and slowly build up funds. Some people head to the roulette wheel and bet all their free cash on black.

Neither of these capsuleers are doing it wrong.

[Lyn Farel]

Yes Makkal, but about the OOC/players side of it ? I have no issues at all with capsuleers stabbing knifes in the backs of each other.

I find it interesting that corp heists are getting such hate from the RP community at large.  Quite a few of us started playing because we heard of a certain heist, one that ended spectacularly, and was within the RP community.  And today, the person who orchestrated and pulled off that heist is a well-liked and respected member of the RP community.  Yet, heists are somehow off limits?

The fact is that if totally IC heists could be pulled off, that'd be great.  But that would be like trying to choreograph a PvP fight blow-for-blow.  People tend not to like being in a "losing" scenario with their characters.  Players may arrange for Bad Things to happen, but in a controlled way that meets their approval.  In short, the answer to "Can I rob your hangar of 3 bil worth of stuff" is generally going to get the same answer as "Can I blow up your 3 bil isk ship?"  As such, you don't seek the OOC approval of the player beforehand, you just do it.

tl;dr:  Players will nearly always use OOC info to avoid serious loss to their characters, corp thieves can't give OOC notice.

I have never really hidden my dislike for heists, no matter who. But I am not the community. I am a stuck-up white knight unable to cope with the realities of a game that was probably not designed for him. Since I accept to play to a game with sides I despise, I am somewhat a hypocrite.

...corp heist is simulation.

The betrayal of the players however, is not.

Ah, right.  Of course, there is that.  For some reason I read your previous post as talking only about the act of pixel theft itself, rather than also the OOC social impact.  My fault entirely, now that I re-read the other post.

To that point, I agree but sorta disagree as well.  I mean, yeah, it sucks to have one's trust betrayed and I think it's a shitty thing to do to be the betrayer - provided that the betrayer went into the friendship honestly to begin with and for whatever reason just decided to break it.

I mean, if I join a corp with the intent of eventually gaining roles/trust and robbing them, then everything I do with that corporation will be toward the intended end.  On my end, the friendship is never real.  It's all social engineering.  Will it be wrong to betray their trust, given that on their end the friendship formed is real?  On the one hand, yes, on the other hand no.

In that scenario, you may call "It's just a game" a fallacy, and may even be right, but I still don't... because that is the game being played by that individual.  If that makes sense... it did in my head, not as sure now that I read it on-screen.

Oh well yeah, I just happen to think that since I consider people doing this IRL despicable, why would I do differently here ? Because it is a game or a simulation ? No, that's the wrong argument.

Because it is a game where you can play to betray friends and is intended to do so ? Maybe, difficult to tell. I am probably playing to the wrong game to begin with. But then allowing behaviours - towards others human players, that's the important part - that most people would condemn IRL in a game, is that right to me ? Probably not, and that's where I can only blame myself. After all, there is the "you signed for this, you don't have to complain". Which is kind of hard to counter argue to begin with.

[Makkal]

Yes Makkal, but about the OOC/players side of it ?

What about it?

His statement was about IC thoughts and actions. My statement was about IC thoughts and actions.

The idea that capsuleers having friends is 'wrong' is one I disagree with.