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[Gwen Ikiryo]

Take it with a grain of salt, but if I recall a conversation in OOC properly, the thing about Saisio's (I'm just going to call it Saisio, even if it's wrong, since calling the planet "Achura" is getting hella confusing) ecology getting messed up by the Caldari is from the old Rod of the Creator mission. ...Which has since been removed, or atleast reworked, like For The Birds was, to no longer feature that bit of lore. (The Rod and theft is absolutely still canon regardless, though, since it's mentioned on the page for the Bloodline on the wiki.)

[Aria Jenneth]

Well, at least CCP seems to be in the process of making a sort of "canon bible" out of the Evelopedia. Still, that source makes me a bit more sympathetic to the argument, even if it's now discussing some parallel universe.

[Ché Biko]

[..]there were at least some Achura who retained their original culture and faith - And therefore probably came directly from Saisio and weren't Caldari citizens

Another possibility: sometimes the second and succeeding generation of immigrant progeny returns to the fundaments of their parents' culture, sometimes to the extreme.
This is in part caused by how they are viewed/treated by the dominant culture, and they decide "If I'm viewed/treated as a *, I might as well act like one."

[Aria Jenneth]

All right: new issue.

The traditional Achura are a "client people" of the Caldari. We need a Napanni form of address for this, whether specific to the Achura or not; neither "-jaijji" nor "-haan" applies, since they're neither full citizens nor complete outsiders.

If it's specific to the client, I'd think that the client people's name or a derivative thereof is appropriate; "-achur" or "-intak" come to mind (bearing in mind that State-resident Intaki are also considered a client people if they do not wish to integrate), though we could vary these (-achura / -achuri / -achuro / achurwhatever; -inaki / -intaka / intaku, etc.).

Who's responsible for keeping the Napanni database, anyway?

[Katrina Oniseki]

All right: new issue.

The traditional Achura are a "client people" of the Caldari. We need a Napanni form of address for this, whether specific to the Achura or not; neither "-jaijji" nor "-haan" applies, since they're neither full citizens nor complete outsiders.

If it's specific to the client, I'd think that the client people's name or a derivative thereof is appropriate; "-achur" or "-intak" come to mind (bearing in mind that State-resident Intaki are also considered a client people if they do not wish to integrate), though we could vary these (-achura / -achuri / -achuro / achurwhatever; -inaki / -intaka / intaku, etc.).

Who's responsible for keeping the Napanni database, anyway?

I don't support this.

I feel this may complicate things a bit too much and introduce too much ethnic conflict where there is not supposed to be much. Assuming you mean differentiating between "integrated" Achur and "traditional" Achura... how are we to know the difference? Many Achuran characters would take direct offense to being excluded from the -haan term simply on a racial basis.

While racial issues are often a thing in the State, does PF support actual conflict between the Achur and Civire/Deteis? I thought it was assumed that because the Achur quietly and easily 'fit in', they are often simply regarded as a 'third race' of Caldari, instead of outsiders.

I suppose if this is to be a thing, it remain so based on megacorporate culture, not a widespread culture. Ishukone, for example, may be more than willing to name all Achuran State loyalists -haan, while Kaalakiota (under Heth) might not at all and simply regard them as little better than expats.

[Svetlana Scarlet]

I have a hard time believing the Caldari would enforce such a delineation. The Caldari have been in the position of being second-class citizens themselves (or at least, feeling like they were) and it seems hard to believe they'd codify that state, even if it existed (which frankly, I think is bullshit). I will point out that you guys are trying to glean an awful lot from a couple sentences in an article on demographics which has its own issues.

I have always seen the Achura as fully accepted in Caldari society, especially since Sukuuvestaa adopts their culture as a marketing tool at the very least. They may be a smaller percentage of the population, but anyone denying that they are Caldari would look ridiculous, especially considering a) their homeworld is right in the middle of Caldari space and b) they have been part of the State for almost as long as the State (or whatever it was before the State) has existed.

[Aria Jenneth]

I don't support this.

I feel this may complicate things a bit too much and introduce too much ethnic conflict where there is not supposed to be much. Assuming you mean differentiating between "integrated" Achur and "traditional" Achura... how are we to know the difference? Many Achuran characters would take direct offense to being excluded from the -haan term simply on a racial basis.

Ms. Oniseki and Ms. Scarlet, this isn't my idea.

While racial issues are often a thing in the State, does PF support actual conflict between the Achur and Civire/Deteis? I thought it was assumed that because the Achur quietly and easily 'fit in', they are often simply regarded as a 'third race' of Caldari, instead of outsiders.

That's now been clarified. The Achura are considered full Caldari if they adopt the Caldari culture wholesale-- which most do. However, Achur capsuleers, it turns out, tend to be rural Achura, a client people of the Caldari who live mostly in a collection of rural monasteries on their homeworld ruled by the Elder Visionaries.

I suppose if this is to be a thing, it remain so based on megacorporate culture, not a widespread culture. Ishukone, for example, may be more than willing to name all Achuran State loyalists -haan, while Kaalakiota (under Heth) might not at all and simply regard them as little better than expats.

The issue here is more in the fact that Achur capsuleers tend to be traditional Achura. They integrate with the Caldari long enough to become capsuleers, or, perhaps, clone soldiers; some remain culturally Caldari, but some revert. The title distinction is important partly for background, but also because there are some (Gwen Ikiryo and Yun Hee Ryeon, to name two) who self-identify as culturally Achura and openly practice their own distinct faith and culture.

[Katrina Oniseki]

<removed after reading Aria's post>

[Svetlana Scarlet]

I've read the rest of the topic...I think it's bullshit. It certainly isn't unprecedented for me to think PF is bullshit.

I do think you may be reading an awful lot into a few lines like that though.

[Katrina Oniseki]

~neat stuff~

So, how should I as a Caldari player go about determining who to address by this new format? Just ask OOC or IC?

"Should I call you -haani or -achuri?"

[Lyn Farel]

It sounds reasonable to me.

Rural achuras vs Urban achuras.

[K_Wiroshoda]

Seems a bit naive to think that the Caldari, as a highly xenophobic and conformist culture, would be incapable of racism within their own borders, especially when one considers the visual distinctiveness of the Achur. Individual Gallente are perpetrators of ethnic discrimination and racism despite being in the supposed land of liberty and equality of New Eden. Minmatar do it against members of their own race who follow the Amarr faith despite having a strong sense of kinship. And then there are the Amarr. Racism is prevalent across all human cultures. To assume the Caldari are different seems a bit special snowflake to me.

[Aria Jenneth]

Svetlana:

You do have something of a history of disapproving of developing PF that disagrees with your existing assumptions.

I prefer the reed's approach to that of the oak. It prevents my character histories from snapping outright. I also have a long history of extrapolating wildly from limited information-- as I must, considering that limited information is all we have.

Sometimes I'm right. This time, I wasn't-- but upon reflection I like CCP's approach better. It's never been quite clear how the Achura could, for example, be part of the (corporate) State and yet have their own national leaders.


Katrina:

Well, considering that Achur capsuleers must at some point have fully integrated to achieve that status (and I assume the same is true of clone soldiers), "-haan" seems like an assumption that all but the most cautious Caldari would likely make. While the PF strongly suggests that many revert, the number who have verifiably done so IC can be counted on two hands.

Once we have a good title, we're likely to just politely correct you; after all, calling us "-haan" isn't insulting (unless you're talking to an Achur malcontent, of which I think we presently have just one), just inaccurate.

[Katrina Oniseki]

Seems a bit naive to think that the Caldari, as a highly xenophobic and conformist culture, would be incapable of racism within their own borders, especially when one considers the visual distinctiveness of the Achur. Individual Gallente are perpetrators of ethnic discrimination and racism despite being in the supposed land of liberty and equality of New Eden. Minmatar do it against members of their own race who follow the Amarr faith despite having a strong sense of kinship. And then there are the Amarr. Racism is prevalent across all human cultures. To assume the Caldari are different seems a bit special snowflake to me.

Nobody is suggesting they are incapable of it. We're suggesting they may not be practicing it on an institutionalized scale. There's a pretty massive difference there.

I'd also like to warn against labeling different interpretations of PF "special snowflake" or "naive", especially prematurely.

EDIT: Oh, and... the Caldari are explicitly stated to be not xenophobic. Please don't say they are.

"Although not xenophobic as such, the Caldari are very protective of their way of life and tolerate only those foreigners that stick to the rules."

I encourage you to read the Caldari description again.

Katrina:

Well, considering that Achur capsuleers must at some point have fully integrated to achieve that status (and I assume the same is true of clone soldiers), "-haan" seems like an assumption that all but the most cautious Caldari would likely make. While the PF strongly suggests that many revert, the number who have verifiably done so IC can be counted on two hands.

Once we have a good title, we're likely to just politely correct you; after all, calling us "-haan" isn't insulting (unless you're talking to an Achur malcontent, of which I think we presently have just one), just inaccurate.

So just wait to be corrected? Sounds good to me. As for your original assertion, I could say I agree with parts of it now. Sounds good to me, as long as it is more of an outlier thing mostly unique to capsuleers. Capsuleers are a bit crazy anyways.

[Aria Jenneth]

We're suggesting they may not be practicing [racism] on an institutionalized scale.

There's actually one, I think, specifically racist organization in Caldari society: the Templis Dragonaurs, who bombed Nouvelle Rouvenor, who started a revolt to try and expel the Intaki from the State (resulting in the creation of Mordu's Legion) ... and who apparently can claim State Executor Tibus Heth as a (secret) member in good standing.

There are indications that some Caldari who are ethnic Achura have suffered attacks from them since the State started getting prickly about foreigners (about the time Tibus Heth started expelling Gallente, by some odd coincidence). The PF doesn't indicate that the phenomenon was widespread, though, IIRC, and I'm inclined to blame the Dragonaurs and their sympathizers.

There are undertones of racism in the State, but usually those seem to remain exactly that.