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[Lyn Farel]

Drugs like neural boosters are pretty much illegal in most parts of the cluster (at least the 4 empires), visible ingame through custom regulations, yes, but also because it is more or less stated in the Serpentis Corporation history. Boosters were exceptionally famous and an enormous part of the market when they firstly were released for public use. The Serpentis Corp became extremely central in that kind of market and quite wealthy in the process.

Until the Empire pretty much banned almost everything because it's bad for your health, y'know, which is the reason why Serpentis went in the shadows.

[Halete]

Topic's been done to death, but regarding drug use, I think NOH are a good entity to look towards. One of their specialties is creating recreational drugs based on illegal narcotics that straddle the line of legality in the State. I think it's safe to assume that the State has it's fair share of recreational drug use, but it's probably very tightly controlled. We know that the corporate police arms have a penchant for drugs thanks to Masks of Authority.

This little snippet from The Better Part of Valor mentions a drug known as stimstickers, which have legal variants, a drug that I have made use of in RP; "So, right. We’re sitting in one of the places near my hab on a Wednesday afternoon, and we’ve just finished a long bout of shifts so we’re looking at four days off. We’re drinking, you know, getting fast on cheap stimstickers – yeah, legal ones, of course."

Now this isn't to say that just because it's legal, that it's something that's just fine and dandy to do. I imagine that depending on your profession, your Megacorporation can be very strict when it comes to what toxins you're putting in your body.

Also, this tells me a few things; it's a large market, people are comfortable discussing it publicly, etc. so I'm thinking that it's actually a generally accepted thing in the State, provided that it doesn't interfere with your work.

[Gesakaarin]

I tend to think it would an error to view the latent Caldari "homophobia" as being in parallel with current modern views, whether it's moral, religious or whatever. I've tended to think it's just the product of the Caldari views on what constitutes a traditional family unit that is expressed in a desire to increase population size in addition to promoting citizens to do the right thing, get married, make babies and have a pleasant life in service to the corporation.

There's also the fact that in some respects, a lot of the rules that govern Caldari life are unwritten and that there exists a great deal of conformity pressures for citizens to meet standards and expectations set by society and I believe setting up the typical nuclear family is a big one in the State.

That doesn't mean though that there's ways around it. I'm sure there's a few homosexuals in the State who are known but don't face as much (public) stigma by:

- Being indispensable to a corporation because their work is just that good.
- Inheriting such a large stake in a company that they can skirt social norms a bit.
- Working in fields where it might not be as much of an issue, perhaps men or women working in the Caldari theatre might be accepted as being homosexual because you know those creative types.

Then there's the fact that the State isn't in the same position as it was when it was first formed so the stigma associated with homosexuality might still be there in the modern State but since the reasons attached to that stigma are less prevalent or required then so might it be. Although it might also be increased due to reactionary/fundamentalist elements of the Provists and the like -- I could certainly see those types viewing homosexuality as being too Gallente or something.

As for drugs, well I think it's a special case for capsuleers when I considered this:

Question: "Tell me, why did you take that Blue Pill?"
Response: "Sir, I needed them in order to increase the effectiveness of my dual ASB on my Navy Scorpion so I could force an engagement with the hostiles and escalate the engagement with my patriotic cyno field! For the State!"

[Halete]

Everything above me concerning the nuclear family, basically fits perfectly with my views.

I doubt that the State has anything as vile as a gay-hazing mindset, more like extreme amounts of social pressures.

[Desiderya]

My take:
Do your duty ( Yes, that includes procreation ) and don't indulge yourself in overly 'gallentean' stereotypes which more or less means: Keep private things private.
I'd echo Silver's sentiments regarding 'traditionalists' being more frowning about this topic, but even then I'd assume that a lot of these affairs happen even there, just not in the bar across the street. In the very least, this could be used as ammunition in an intrigue against your own position.

Drugs:
They are illegal already - the game and lore says so. Another striking reason might be that all these illegal boosters have to be smuggled and are usually produced and marketed by various underworld institutions. The State has, for example, NOH. They produce a lot of modern and above all legal methods of boosting your efficiency and helping to deal with stress. Better to supply the domestic market yourself than have dem Guristas do it, no(h)?

[Shintoko Akahoshi]

Mmmmm, when it gets down to it, though, the only "traditional" Caldari monoculture would have to be Raata, which is an old enough culture that ideas about having/not having children in order to keep the empire strong/conserve resources probably wouldn't apply. Remember, the Raata ultimately had no enemies, no competition. I don't think there'd be any pressure one way or another in golden age Raata culture to either have children (no enemies to keep ahead of) or not (not enough people to put a strain on resources).

CCP have provided us with a mission in which a female Caldari executive idly complains that her wife didn't want her to take this job. Maybe it's a mistake on CCP's part, but it seems pretty clear cut. If homosexuality was a big issue in the State, that executive wouldn't be mentioning her wife to random pilots.

On the other hand, I'm fully on board with Quinzel here. 

[Aria Jenneth]

I tend to think it would an error to view the latent Caldari "homophobia" as being in parallel with current modern views, whether it's moral, religious or whatever.

I'd be more suspicious of doing this if the pattern of homophobia weren't so damned consistent across cultures, creeds, and historical periods. If homosexual relationships have been frowned upon, it's been for "upsetting the natural order," not for failing to pop out babies-- except insofar as failing to pop out babies is a symptom of having upset the natural order.

Go back in time, and the pattern intensifies, if anything. The attitudes aren't universal, but they're there and they tend to be strongly held. I see no reason why a highly traditionalist culture such as the State's would necessarily have adopted an unambiguously practical, duty-based attitude-- and no indication in PF that this is the reason.

Do not forget that the State's laissez-faire-to-the-point-of-feudalism system has nothing to do with libertarian ideals. Really, it seems to be mostly a historical accident-- the primary Caldari power structure not aligned with the Federation at the time of the Great War was corporate, and so it was the corporations that led the Caldari into a new age.

The State is a shell used to protect the highly traditionalist Caldari culture. I don't think the Caldari are believers in the principle of "live and let live," generally.

Moralistic prudes, more like-- and that's part of what makes them fun to play.

[K_Wiroshoda]

Currently, majority world opinion is against homosexuality, in the most general sense. As Aria Jenneth has already elaborated, I think the Caldari attitude against homosexuality is rooted more in the "traditional traditionalism" that we see outside the West (i.e. Upsetting the natural order). This builds on the idea that EVE lore is grounded in contemporary understandings of human nature.

[Creep]

Homophobia is actually largely cultural, rather than uniformly a human reaction. Many traditional societies in Africa and Asia and the Americas have had special (venerated) status' for Homosexual and Transgender individuals. Transgender people tend to fall into a spiritually significant role, while homosexuals have often found their niches as a sort of go-between regarding traditional gender roles.

doubleposting because shitphone.

Also, do pvpers who use boosters address it in their roleplay?  I was always too cheap to use them

<<<I can't afford them either.

But since I have used them in the past, the withdrawal symptoms causes the quality of my clones to decay fast. Also, it gives me a weak excuse for losing ships and clones all the damn time.

What I'd like to know is: Transgender/Intersex. How do the various cultures deal with them? Minnies have the whole Genetic Tattoo deal, how is that dealt with when suddenly it's a different gender? Amarr have their soul-dealy, is that compromised if a person realizes that the genetic tag for gender got accidentally'd during development? Caldari are quite literally human resources, so do they need to be re-registered as a different gender, or is it even acceptable to change one's reputation that drastically? Mainstream Gallente, of course, will have no issue, but since the Fed is made up of so many different cultures, do the Jin-Mei and their caste system have issues with it? Or the Intaki/Mannar/Whatever else?

And how about the surgery? These days, many people cannot afford to undergo the surgery, or even the hormone treatments. Some nations and insurances cover it (and some cover it for less than praiseworthy reasons, such as Iran), how is this dealt with in Eve?

[kalaratiri]

I believe Saede's previous character Kiki dealt with being male -> female trans by having a female clone made and transferring into it.

Yaaay, rich people

[Aria Jenneth]

Homophobia is actually largely cultural, rather than uniformly a human reaction.

I think you have mistaken K_Wiroshoda's remark about human nature's interaction with culture and society for one about the nature of all humans. If homophobia were uniformly human, then all human societies would be homophobic, which is obviously untrue.

I do not think that the two of you disagree.

[Gesakaarin]

I tend to think it would an error to view the latent Caldari "homophobia" as being in parallel with current modern views, whether it's moral, religious or whatever.

I'd be more suspicious of doing this if the pattern of homophobia weren't so damned consistent across cultures, creeds, and historical periods. If homosexual relationships have been frowned upon, it's been for "upsetting the natural order," not for failing to pop out babies-- except insofar as failing to pop out babies is a symptom of having upset the natural order.

Go back in time, and the pattern intensifies, if anything. The attitudes aren't universal, but they're there and they tend to be strongly held. I see no reason why a highly traditionalist culture such as the State's would necessarily have adopted an unambiguously practical, duty-based attitude-- and no indication in PF that this is the reason.

Do not forget that the State's laissez-faire-to-the-point-of-feudalism system has nothing to do with libertarian ideals. Really, it seems to be mostly a historical accident-- the primary Caldari power structure not aligned with the Federation at the time of the Great War was corporate, and so it was the corporations that led the Caldari into a new age.

The State is a shell used to protect the highly traditionalist Caldari culture. I don't think the Caldari are believers in the principle of "live and let live," generally.

Moralistic prudes, more like-- and that's part of what makes them fun to play.

The point I was making was that the latent homophobia that exists in the State should be seen from the lens of a Caldari worldview and to not draw parallels in how it manifests itself in the modern world. I then attempted to point out that Caldari and State society is one that is highly conformist, with a great deal of unwritten rules its citizens are expected to adhere to or face shame, stigma and ostracism - of which homosexuality is seen as a deviation from expected norms of behaviour.

I might expand on my earlier points and say that Caldari homophobia might very well be a product of a society that believes in many respects that the majority has it right. If the majority of relationships in the State are heterosexual then being a homosexual is viewed as being different to ones peers and fellow citizens, a nail sticking out that risks being hammered down. I would then state that the reason the Megas are ambivalent towards such an attitude and do not seek to amend it is because it serves their interests not to do so: it promotes a uniformity of opinion regarding traditional unions that fosters their citizens to procreate, have children and raise them in similar circumstances, inculcating them with similar values.

Homophobia in the State to me isn't a product of some kind of traditionalist morality, whatever that may be, but rather it is a product of a society that demands conformity of thought and opinion with those that deviate in whatever form risking the same stigmas as a homosexual because they are different to everyone else -- whether it's politically, religiously, culturally or ethnically -- not because there's a moral argument attached to homosexuality in the State.

It is a symptom not of a State that seeks to protect its culture, but rather a State that is used to protect its Megacorporations who themselves define Caldari culture to suit their own interests. This is a society whose corporations have taken the principles of the Deutscher Werkbund and the work of people like Peter Behrens to their zenith and who use the power of symbolism, psychology, propaganda and their control over extensive media apparatus to not only define their own corporate identities, but that of the State and in so doing, the modern Caldari themselves. It doesn't matter if it's called advertizing, branding or manufacturing consent the end effect is the same: As a citizen, you should act according to same philosophies as the design products of State corporations, fall in line, do your job, seek precision, seek perfection, seek function over form, but most of all don't be different.

That's probably my own admittedly simple explanation of things, since going further into all the subtle complexities I've always seen in the Caldari State would take up more space and time than I have right now I'll just say that the question of homosexuality as it applies to the State highlights my favourite aspect of it: The struggle to meet individual desires along with the demands of Caldari society, and how its citizens try to manage them both.

[Aria Jenneth]

The point I was making was that the latent homophobia that exists in the State should be seen from the lens of a Caldari worldview and to not draw parallels in how it manifests itself in the modern world. I then attempted to point out that Caldari and State society is one that is highly conformist, with a great deal of unwritten rules its citizens are expected to adhere to or face shame, stigma and ostracism - of which homosexuality is seen as a deviation from expected norms of behaviour.

So it is deviancy from the norm, and that by itself is sufficient to justify ostracism?

Hm. Let's see how your reasoning holds up.

I might expand on my earlier points and say that Caldari homophobia might very well be a product of a society that believes in many respects that the majority has it right. If the majority of relationships in the State are heterosexual then being a homosexual is viewed as being different to ones peers and fellow citizens, a nail sticking out that risks being hammered down. I would then state that the reason the Megas are ambivalent towards such an attitude and do not seek to amend it is because it serves their interests not to do so: it promotes a uniformity of opinion regarding traditional unions that fosters their citizens to procreate, have children and raise them in similar circumstances, inculcating them with similar values.

And yet the Caldari do not seek to impose blind obedience and conformity. See, for example, "The Ever Turning Wheels," in which a Gallentean worker receives recognition and swift promotion for being the usefully squeaky wheel. The Caldari prize efficiency over conformity.

Meritocracy and hammering down those nails that stick out do not go well together. I'd speculate that this is one reason why the jaalan are tolerated. After all, one who was once jaalan himself is now Executor of the Caldari State.

Homophobia in the State to me isn't a product of some kind of traditionalist morality, whatever that may be, but rather it is a product of a society that demands conformity of thought and opinion with those that deviate in whatever form risking the same stigmas as a homosexual because they are different to everyone else -- whether it's politically, religiously, culturally or ethnically -- not because there's a moral argument attached to homosexuality in the State.

The relatively cordial relationship between the Caldari and the Achura (and, indeed, the fact that there are two distinct lines of ethnic Caldari, with different traditions and cultural traits that function in concert) suggests that deviation is not anathema to the State. The Achura are deeply spiritual where the Caldari are relatively secular. The Achura are not particularly materialistic where the Caldari are profoundly so.

And yet we have minimal indications of widespread dissatisfaction among the Achura with their relations with the Caldari.

This is a society demanding conformity in thought and opinion?

It is a symptom not of a State that seeks to protect its culture, but rather a State that is used to protect its Megacorporations who themselves define Caldari culture to suit their own interests. This is a society whose corporations have taken the principles of the Deutscher Werkbund and the work of people like Peter Behrens to their zenith and who use the power of symbolism, psychology, propaganda and their control over extensive media apparatus to not only define their own corporate identities, but that of the State and in so doing, the modern Caldari themselves. It doesn't matter if it's called advertizing, branding or manufacturing consent the end effect is the same: As a citizen, you should act according to same philosophies as the design products of State corporations, fall in line, do your job, seek precision, seek perfection, seek function over form, but most of all don't be different.

From the Caldari State core article:

Although [the dominant position of the Caldari megcorporations] gives the corporations dictatorial powers, they are just as bound by Caldari customs and laws as the individual....

The Caldari appear to serve their corporations out of confidence that the corporations are the best tools for the protection and advancement of the Caldari people. Also, please note that the "Brothers of Freedom" crisis that gave Tibus Heth his initial boost into the spotlight was anything but a creation of megacorporate plutocracy.

It was more a note to the Gallente to be careful what you wish for-- a populist revolt in a highly conservative culture is unlikely to result in a more open society. It's more likely to produce the opposite.

That's probably my own admittedly simple explanation of things, since going further into all the subtle complexities I've always seen in the Caldari State would take up more space and time than I have right now I'll just say that the question of homosexuality as it applies to the State highlights my favourite aspect of it: The struggle to meet individual desires along with the demands of Caldari society, and how its citizens try to manage them both.

Here we can agree in part, but I think you've given short shrift to Caldari culture in your analysis. The Caldari still hold fast to ancient legends and old grudges; they're not exactly putty in the hands of their corporate overlords. If anything, the underlying Caldari culture is something of which the corporate elites have to be very, very careful. Let me toss out a handful of examples.

* The Caldari have culturally institutionalized the use of an ordeal poison, the Tea Maker Ceremony. This is literally asking the Maker whether He thinks you should live. The tradition is iconoclastic by nature-- a civil method of murdering leaders who go astray.

* Caldari respect for their ancestors runs deep-- deep enough that desecrating ancestral burial sites is a superb method of inciting them. See, for example, "With Acknowledgements to Mad Dogs." This is inconsistent with a culture in which the past has been subverted by the present.

* Quite the opposite-- the Caldari have never, ever forgotten their history with the Gallente. To the Gallente, that was a couple hundred years ago. Nobody was alive back then! (Apologies to Eddie Izzard.) To the Caldari, the loss of Caldari Prime might as well have been yesterday. See, e.g., "The Science of Never Again."

The Caldari State is not a bunch of plutocrats dictating thought from on high. It's a bunch of plutocrats riding the tiger that is the Caldari populace. Of course, this isn't all one way-- they do influence the culture and they do run things.

They just have to ride well or get handed a nice cup of tea.

I'm sorry, Gesakaarin, but I just don't buy the notion that the megas have a stranglehold on the State. They're strong, yes, but I think you've mistaken a highly insular, group-centered culture for a conformist one. The Caldari certainly aren't nonconformists, but they're also a good ways off following Sansha Kuvakei on his quest to unify all human thought.

The societies CCP has provided us to play around with certainly owe a lot to various schools of thought and philosophy, but none of them embody those ideas with much purity-- if only because they are presented as human societies first and thought experiments third or fourth.