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[Shintoko Akahoshi]

It should be noted that drug use, homosexuality, murder, extortion, and  smuggling are all also illegal within the State.

Wait, what? Where do you get this? Murder, extortion and smuggling, yes. Homosexuality and drug use, though? I'm not doubting you, I just wonder where this comes from.

[orange]

It should be noted that drug use, homosexuality, murder, extortion, and  smuggling are all also illegal within the State.

Wait, what? Where do you get this? Murder, extortion and smuggling, yes. Homosexuality and drug use, though? I'm not doubting you, I just wonder where this comes from.

There are multiple threads about the topic of homosexuality in the State.  The State and sexuality and Gender in New Eden.   Looking through the threads, I can not find any arguments for it being illegal, but rather being an extreme social taboo, which matters a lot in the State.

As for drugs, the answer is it depends.  (But that applies to murder, extortion, and smuggling as well  )

[Katrina Oniseki]

I removed the reference completely. Please do not derail this topic with a discussion that has been hashed out at length in the threads orange kindly linked.

Thread split from recruitment thread. Feel free to discuss it.

[Havohej]

As long as it stays chill, this could be a very interesting topic.  So, having quite the limited phone to surf with, I selfishly want to see where it leads.

[Katrina Oniseki]

When I said homosexuality, I actually didn't mean to say it's illegal. It's a poor arrangement of words, as I was too lazy to put it in its own special sentence. I'll try to define my words more...

I don't think it is 'illegal' per se, but it's certainly not protected by any laws. Homosexual marriage is not available at all, and homosexual relations can get you fired from your job in some places. In the State, where your job is your citizenship, getting fired puts you in a legally invalid situation. It's effectively worse than being imprisoned, because without your employment, you have no rights at all.

As for drug use, it's a similar situation. I'm sure there are some recreational drugs whose use, possession, and/or trafficking is strictly controlled or outright banned. Where they aren't, I'd imagine abuse of them can also get you fired.

My original post was meant to draw attention to the fact that I-RED has pilots and members who do things or are parts of things that are clearly illegal or frowned upon in the Caldari State. We're Capsuleers, not common workers, given to vice and hubris far beyond what you might expect. We don't pretend to be saintly.

We've hired drug addicts, pirates, fugitives, and worse. A slave holder is no big deal to us, really.

[Havohej]

Of course.  I didn't suspect a foul, mind.  But when I saw the post it piqued my interest as I'm not very familiar with CalRP.  I'm curious as to how LGBT RPers deal with the topic in their play (should any feel comfortable discussing it here).

[Havohej]

doubleposting because shitphone.

Also, do pvpers who use boosters address it in their roleplay?  I was always too cheap to use them

[Makkal]

Yes, it sounded a bit like, "We'll take slavers, but not gay slavers," which I found amusing. I understood what Kat meant though.

[Shintoko Akahoshi]

Because this is a charged topic, I want to make it clear ahead of time that I didn't bring up these questions to pour any kind of fire on I-RED. I'm just curious, is all.

I went through and re-read  the topics Orange linked to. I don't really buy a lot of the arguments going on in the State thread. On the basis of Peunato being forced out of the Navy (and, as Silver points out, this only really indicates that there's a problem with homosexuals in the Navy), the assumption is made that traditional Caldari culture has a problem with gays. However, before "don't ask, don't tell" was repealed, the same fate awaited U.S. servicemen and women who were outed. While I won't deny that a lot of Americans have a problem with homosexuals, it's certainly not the case that being "out" is a widespread career killer here. The argument could be made that this is the case in the U.S. because the judicial system is ultimately based on laws designed to guarantee human rights and liberties while this is not the case in the State, but if you assume that Caldari law is based on Corporate rights you'd expect to see similar sorts of "none of your business, drumming X out of the corp is bad for business" rulings.

The bigger issue I have with some of the arguments is in the interpretation of the names of the Caldari factions. The Practicals frown on homosexual relationships because it's not practical, etc. The problem I have with this is that, semantically, the names of the factions are really jargon. Again using the U.S. as an example, we have liberals and conservatives. Many (most?) conservatives in the U.S. these days tend to be socially conservative, yet fiscally they are not (this is a gross simplification, but I'm just trying to make the point that the jargon name "conservative" doesn't imply that conservatives are conservative (i.e.: wishing to conserve) on all issues.

Myself, personally, I think that given the PF that CCP has provided (the agent mission in question in the State thread may be a typo, but it's the text that we have), homosexuality may be frowned upon in certain institutions in the State, but is otherwise fairly widely accepted.

Next up: drug users! Valuable customers or drains on the State?

[Makkal]

I expect that across the empires, there are a large number of drugs available for use. "Drugs are illegal" means "illegal drugs are illegal."

Just like caffeine, tobacco, alcohol, and aspirin are legal, the Caldari likely have stimulants, painkillers, and depressants. They probably have drugs that improve their physical and mental performance. High level students likely take nootropics as a matter of course.

[Silver Night]

Because this is a charged topic, I want to make it clear ahead of time that I didn't bring up these questions to pour any kind of fire on I-RED. I'm just curious, is all.

I went through and re-read  the topics Orange linked to. I don't really buy a lot of the arguments going on in the State thread. On the basis of Peunato being forced out of the Navy (and, as Silver points out, this only really indicates that there's a problem with homosexuals in the Navy), the assumption is made that traditional Caldari culture has a problem with gays. However, before "don't ask, don't tell" was repealed, the same fate awaited U.S. servicemen and women who were outed. While I won't deny that a lot of Americans have a problem with homosexuals, it's certainly not the case that being "out" is a widespread career killer here. The argument could be made that this is the case in the U.S. because the judicial system is ultimately based on laws designed to guarantee human rights and liberties while this is not the case in the State, but if you assume that Caldari law is based on Corporate rights you'd expect to see similar sorts of "none of your business, drumming X out of the corp is bad for business" rulings.

The bigger issue I have with some of the arguments is in the interpretation of the names of the Caldari factions. The Practicals frown on homosexual relationships because it's not practical, etc. The problem I have with this is that, semantically, the names of the factions are really jargon. Again using the U.S. as an example, we have liberals and conservatives. Many (most?) conservatives in the U.S. these days tend to be socially conservative, yet fiscally they are not (this is a gross simplification, but I'm just trying to make the point that the jargon name "conservative" doesn't imply that conservatives are conservative (i.e.: wishing to conserve) on all issues.

Myself, personally, I think that given the PF that CCP has provided (the agent mission in question in the State thread may be a typo, but it's the text that we have), homosexuality may be frowned upon in certain institutions in the State, but is otherwise fairly widely accepted.

Next up: drug users! Valuable customers or drains on the State?

Personally, I would tend to think that the thing with the Navy indicates - though doesn't conclusively prove by any means - that there is a cultural taboo against homosexuality. Now, if that's the case it probably tends to manifest more in the more traditionalist corporations - your Wiyrkomi or Hyasyoda for example. Whether that taboo takes the form of explicit corporate policy or not is a bit up in the air. If I recall, even the situation with Peunato didn't specify whether he was forced out as a matter of official policy or unofficially.

As far as drugs, I would think it might vary. Drugs are a little tricky because some of it can depend on the place a particular intoxicant holds in the culture. How seriously you might be sanctioned for using might depend almost as much on your occupation as on anything else.

[orange]

The State (or rather its corps) frankly doesn't give 1 ISK about who you sleep with as along as your pillow talk doesn't involve corporate secrets.

Thinking about it a bit more, I think there are competing values that the Caldari may encounter in their culture and history.  In the more recent history there was the need to procreate in order to build up a small population relative to the other empires (see the Tube Child program).

On the other hand, the ancient Caldari may have had very regimented procreation pressures due to the need to maintain homeostasis with their immediate environment.  Having lots of children is not conducive to maintaining homeostasis in a resource limited environment like early Caldari Prime.  This leads me to consider the idea that these communities did not shun bisexuality, but rather were very concerned with unapproved/uncoordinated procreation.  So, it may not even be that the Caldari are concerned with homosexual acts, but rather a failure to perform the necessary duty of procreation (when it is your turn).

Drugs, Murder, Extortion, and Smuggling all occur legally in the State.  The question is was it approved by the corporation who is the authority at that particular place/time. 

An Internal Security team may be funded by drug sales to murder the unauthorized non-brand-name drug pusher.    A Hyasyoda intelligence team may extort the hardware blueprints out of a Zero-G Research lead (who was having an affair* with a Hyasyoda agent  ) and smuggle them out of Aunenen via Joint Harvesting.  Welcome to cyberpunk! 

*Maybe even a heterosexual affair outside of his homosexual relationship. 

[Samira Kernher]

doubleposting because shitphone.

Also, do pvpers who use boosters address it in their roleplay?  I was always too cheap to use them

Am not a PvPer, but I use them in my RP!

As for the State, I consider it illegal. Simply looking at the legality shows that the laws regarding standard narcotics are much more strict in the State than in any other empire. Empire/Fed are 0.10 standing loss with 200% fine in 0.5 and above systems, Republic is 0.5 with 150% fine in 0.8 and above systems, State is 0.15 and 300% fine in 0.4 and above systems. Republic are the most permissive, with it not even being illegal outside of sec 0.8-1.0 systems, while the State is the most controlling. (this all refers to base narcotics. In the case of capsuleer-marketed combat boosters, it is 0.10 standing loss with 200% fine in 0.5 and above systems for all empires for everything except Synthetic Combat Boosters).

I can't see why it'd be listed as contraband, and yet be permitted to be used in the State. It's contraband, plain and simple, bringing it into the State is smuggling, plain and simple. Even if it may not be illegal to use, it's certainly illegal to possess.

"Neural boosters are drugs that enhance human mental capacity. They have debilitating side effects which has rendered them illegal in most civilized space." - Neutral Boosters


That being said, because of the State's capitalistic ways, the corporations are probably constantly trying to come up with legal recreational drugs that they can market to the populace. Drugs without significant negative side-effects (or at least, without proven significant negative side-effects). See the Lai-Dai drug Perseverance as an example:

"The catalyst for the Tannolen Minedrill Riots in YC 21 was generally regarded to be the company's decision to yank the Lai Dai recreational drug “Perseverance” from store shelves, a concoction which had been extremely popular among miners in the system." - The Caldari Finanical System

So while the standard booster drugs are clearly illegal in the State, recreational drugs as an institution may not be. Rather, very specific State-produced drugs may be legal, provided they comply with restrictive corporate regulations.

[Aria Jenneth]

I've always tended to assume that the Caldari State is just quite socially conservative. Conservatism need not tie itself to any specific line of practical logic like, "Procreation is why we mate, m'kay?" and is often more persuasive when it doesn't, at least among the faithful.

"It is an abomination in the sight of the Maker, the Winds, the spirits and ancestors! (... and also threatens my fragile confidence in my own heterosexuality; Maker forefend I should turn out to be thus cursed)" strikes me as the most probable line.

The fact that the Caldari are not very ... public about their faith doesn't mean that it doesn't inform a lot of their attitudes. See, e.g., their attitudes towards their ancestors' graves.

The Caldari seem to tend to be pretty damn moralistic, all in all, and have a lot to say about each other's behavior. That seems to apply generally to both sex and drugs. Plz to bear in mind that they have minimal respect for anything that smacks of individualism. They're not quite fascist (if only because jaalan are generally tolerated with ill grace rather than crushed), but they do kinda push that margin a bit.

[Pieter Tuulinen]

**All of the below are my opinion based on PF and RP I've experienced. I'm not attempting to say anyone is doingitwrong.**

As always with the State, there's a big difference between technically illegal and socially frowned upon - as Katrina points out, there's often not a huge difference in the downside between comitting a felony and comitting a social faux pas, if it's the WRONG faux pas.

The key to understanding the social bias against homosexual relationships is to look at the social pressures regarding procreation in the State.

As has already been said, the Caldari suffered from a huge population shortage, one that has only recently been alleviated to the extent that the Tubechild project has become economically unviable for massproduction of human assets.  The Caldari also came from a Homeworld where life was difficult and child mortality exceptionally high. Some winters the settlement leaders had to expose the very young and the very old, simply to have enough food to survive until spring.

Social pressures therefore exist upon ALL Caldari to 'do their duty for the State' and produce offspring to replace them at the end of their lives - and excess offspring to expand the workforce.

Against this background it's easy to see where a stigma against homosexuality arises.

THAT SAID... There's also the other side of the State character, which says that provided you're doing your duty, nobody cares overmuch what goes on behind closed doors. This applies doubly for those in positions of authority and privilige - provided their duty is done in public and they don't speak out against the status quo.

Of course capsuleers get to flaunt all the social norms.