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[Louella Dougans]

The Caldari meritocracy (in principle, anyway) would be conflicting with the Minmatar tribal trend for nepotism. (some tribes more than others).

[BloodBird]

The pirate factions, especially Blooders, have access to Empire space because they are using gates that are unknown to the Empire.

At least this is what I gathered from the COSMOS missions.

Same for me, It's not like the Empire let them in on their own. The example I used simply considered a loss of mission with the idea that rats would stop comming ot Empire space because they were needed at home in an open war. Ofc, after that the whole nature of missions came to the fore and frankly there would be argumetns for and against missions stopping even with a major war going.

[Shintoko Akahoshi]

The Caldari meritocracy (in principle, anyway) would be conflicting with the Minmatar tribal trend for nepotism. (some tribes more than others).

I actually think the Caldari meritocracy fits better with the Minmatar tribal system than it does with the Amarr.

Think about it: The Amarrian system is a feudal system based on birthrights and bloodlines. There is a route upward for slaves to integrate into society, but they're not going to then become holders. In the Caldari system, power goes to those who can take it. While Minmatar tribes do limit people's prospects arbitrarily (based on how that person's voluval turns out), there's also a (new, perhaps) tradition of outcasts developing new and powerful enterprises themselves. This is ultimately very Caldari, I think. Those who can, do (and if they can't within the context of their tribe or clan, they can break from them and follow their dreams on their own). Those who cannot typically have a place where they are taken care of while contributing - a "Joe" Lai Dai worker is still a Lai Dai worker with all the benefits that this entails, just as a "Joe" Brutor is still a Brutor with all the benefits *that* entails.

Interesting that in certain ways, the Caldari are culturally closer to the Minmatar than either are to the Gallente.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

There is a route upward for slaves to integrate into society, but they're not going to then become holders.

Actually, this is one of the biggest misconceptions, ever: The Udorian Tash-Murkon family, who isn't only a family of holders, but a royal family, started out, being Udorian, as slaves. Many Udorian holders stem, probably, from families that were enslaved, once, the same is true for the few Ni-Kunni holders.

I also don't buy into the argument that how Matari handle being outcast is something 'very Caldari'. It might be from a certain perspective but about everything is from a certain perspective like something else from a certain perspective. The trick isn't looking from the perspective that makes things look alike when you want them to look alike and to look from the perspectives that make things look not alike if you want them to not look alike, but to look at things from several perspectives to begin with to approximate a more objective point of view.

So, yes, if I think about it like that then the Matari and the Caldari seem very similar, but unless you want to advertise for this way of thinking about it (which you gave little reason for, imho) it's not a good argument for how the Caldari meritocracy fits with Matari tribalism, as it ignores other ways to think about it and avoids to engage those.

[Silver Night]

There are Ni-Kunni holders? I mean, I would think there would be, but is there actual confirmation now?

Also, a route upward toward going from slave to holder over a couple (dozen, probably?) generations is different than a route from being a factory worker to an executive in your own lifetime. I've always thought that a (loose, arms length) agreement (if not alliance) between the Republic and the State made some sense. Though admittedly I wouldn't want to ally with the State while Heth was in charge, and no doubt the Fed has levers to keep them apart too.

[Akrasjel Lanate]

There are Ni-Kunni holders? I mean, I would think there would be, but is there actual confirmation now?

Yes, here

There are few Ni-Kunni Holders, though that number is likely to increase in the coming generations. The few Ni-Kunni Holders that exist are primarily the descendants of early collaborators during the Amarr conquest of Mishi IV. Most Ni-Kunni Holders remain in Aridia, a relatively poor and often-neglected region of the Empire. However, as more Ni-Kunni merchants gain influence in the Empire, and the current Ni-Kunni Holders gain in prestige, it is likely the number will increase and may one day rival the Khanid minority in size.

[Shintoko Akahoshi]

There is a route upward for slaves to integrate into society, but they're not going to then become holders.

Actually, this is one of the biggest misconceptions, ever: The Udorian Tash-Murkon family, who isn't only a family of holders, but a royal family, started out, being Udorian, as slaves. Many Udorian holders stem, probably, from families that were enslaved, once, the same is true for the few Ni-Kunni holders.

Point taken about the Udorians and Ni-Kunni. I should have properly said that there was no route for those individuals. There is certainly a route upward for families, over the long term.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

Also, here:

The Ni-Kunni occupy a middle ground in Amarr society. They only claim a few small families as Holders, but they have a very large number of wealthy merchants and businessmen among them, giving them more influence than their size would suggest. Ni-Kunni businesses flourish in many areas of the Empire and several industries run on the backbone of Ni-Kunni ingenuity and acumen. However, many Ni-Kunni remain poor and live around the poverty line.

and here: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Ni-Kunni#Holders


Also, in Caldari society it's rare for individuals to go from the lowest rungs up to the highest echelons of their society as well, no? That's why Heth was partly so popular among the Caldari plebs, because he promised to put the plutocracy out of the system and steer it back to meritocracy, no? At least, that's how I understood that (but I'm no expert on the Caldari, so I might have mistaken that).
And then there is the Imperial Navy and the clerical institutions in the Empire (also the ACS), which allow for a lot more mobility on the individual basis, offering vast chances of improving the individual lot up to stations that rival in influence the greatest holders. It's just not hereditary.

[Shintoko Akahoshi]

I don't think you can really point at the Ni-Kunni for your examples here. They've certainly managed to fill nearly all strata of Amarrian society, but they've been a part of it for many generations. A better example might be the Minmatar. While you might point to the Ammatar Mandate, it appears to mostly exist as a form of damage control following the Minmatar rebellions.

You are correct, though, in that it's rare for someone to go from the lowest rung to the highest in Caldari society. At the same time, it is not unknown. The fundamental difference is that it is possible for someone on the lowest rung of Caldari society to - through hard work and grit and ability - rise to the highest. That would be akin to a a Minmatar slave rising to become the head of a major Amarrian house.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

I don't think it would be akin to that. Also, a Minmatar with the wrong voluval can't ever become president (or vice president) of the Republic either...

As I said, a simple commoner can come quite far in the IN or in the church isntitutions. An Abbot of a monastery is practically a minor holder, already... That's achievable.

I don't think that criminals or non-citizens come very far in the State (slaves are non-citizens), even after they were naturalized as citizens. Not to speak of those people in the State who ended up in the non-entity caste. Like, say someone with a mental disability^or someone who just got un-lucky?

So, when did last time someone from the non-entity-caste arise to the Executive class, which, traditionally is "considered impenetrable"? Not even Heth did that (starting out as non-entity) and what he did there was basically unheard of in all of Caldari history. He's an anomaly.

[Rok-Yuni]

Otro Gariushi?
Former Gurista.
Head of Ishukone.

[BloodBird]

Otro Gariushi?
Former Gurista.
Head of Ishukone.

Not officially known as such, the State would never willingly let a Gurista become anything at all but a prisoner in the State, unless said Gurista is simply dragged to a wall and given a last smoke instead.

[Chell Charon]

"Amarrian system is a generational meritocracy, we reward good upbringing and stability."
^ That would be Crows selling point to the Caldari. Not entirely untrue, me thinks. 

[Samira Kernher]

Generational meritocracy. I like that.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

Aristocracy, rule of the best. With who the best are being revealed by the merits of families over generations.