Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Rok-Yuni on 12 Apr 2013, 14:37
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So.
The two most recent newsworthy events...
1) Gallente - Matari alliance strained by shooting.
2) Caldari - Amarr alliance strained by contract based stuffs.
Does it look to anyone else that CCP are considering opening up another two CEMWPA arenas?
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I sure hope so!
*giggles*
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I hope not. It's nicer to have two alliances rather than four independent factions.
And Sami's been supportive of the Empire-State alliance. :(
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It's good if the universe evolves. Makes things less stale.
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Or, instead of 4 warzones, they make it so it's just caldari vs gallente and amarr vs minmatar.
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Thought 1:
Eve politics could use a shakeup that doesn't involve just applying more heat.
Thought 2:
If this results in war, there will be four theaters:
(a) the Two Theaters of Major Issues and Grand Themes, wherein great powers spar over the deepest and most enduring of philosophical questions; and
(b) the Two Theaters of Vicious Bickering and Petty Shit, wherein silly people kill each other over contractual disputes, proper care and feeding of cultural heroes, and who gets to put a terrorist on a show trial.
It seems a little unlikely that the latter will actually come into being.
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What is CEMWPA?
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It would kinda suck for FWers to be forced into smaller areas of lowsec by them making the alliances irrelevant. I have an FW alt in Minmatar FW and had a blast over in Gallente/Caldari space today while the Amarrians blobbed around in 30 man fleets. Not being able to do that would suck, not to mention disincentivize me from playing my FW alt and thus from subbing my FW alt.
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And it would, for entirely idiotic reasons slap everyone with the thickest, nailed moron-bat in order to achieve the 4-way war.
Who the fuck will be happy if CCP basically says "The empires are all morons who would start another war among old and tried allies over trivial issues and get millions to billions more killed and fuck-up the power-balance for the hell of it." ?
Well, all the pirate factions will be laughing themselves silly while plotting raids and other fun shit while they can.
Honestly I'd rather see an end to intra-faction wars and have 4 individual wars to expand Empire controlled areas and make for huge land-wars against true enemies - Federation invades Fountain/Serpentis, Empire fights blooders in some other region, State decks Guristas and sets their eyes on the north, etc. Empire-loyal players will be enrolled to help in this in return for fat rewards, null-powers can and will sign up for the pirate factions to help them and preserve their null-zones for various reasons, including fat rewards, etc. etc.
Make the wars about something more likely and meaningful, and perhaps nerf high/low-sec mission as a consequence to this giving players incentives to go help in the war-effort etc. It could be freaking great, if done right and balanced, or maybe not if pulled off half-assedly.
Just don't freaking continue to act like the leadership of supposed interstellar super-powers are all idiots who would risk their own asses over petty, trivial reasons, please...
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I'd like to see the alliances changed. Caldari-Matar and Amarr-Gallente. That would even out the distribution of players on each side, remove the good side/evil side paradigm, and make more sense from a training viewpoint (hey, you use shields? I use shields too!). It would also be more fun, after all this time - how does a liberal democracy handle teaming up with a monarchic theocracy? How do a State of corporations handle working with a Tribal society?
This would be a shake-up that would actually be interesting, and force everyone to make some interesting choices. Including me, with my roughly 10.00 Empire standings. :P
But, I don't think it will happen.
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I'm with Vik, I'd like to see the traditional alliance dynamic changed.
If not Amarr-Gallente vs Caldari-Minmatar then surely Gallente-Caldari vs Amarr- oh yeah that would never happen.
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What is CEMWPA?
Factional warfare...
it's got a wierd concord name... might have got it wrong before but it's something like
'CONCORD Emergency Militia War Powers Act' .... i honestly can't be bothered to look it up... but yeah... it's FW.
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Segregating the warzone into two separate conflicts would be terrible for gameplay balancing.
One of the cheapest ways of preventing steamrolling in systems like this, where people have an incentive to join the winning side, is to have at least three factions - allowing two factions to team up against one. At present, the system still isn't self-balancing, but at least it's possible to call for help from your friendly militia.
Making it a free-for-all would probably help the FW system self-balance, as would introducing pirates or independent factions as a third/fifth party.
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Or, instead of 4 warzones, they make it so it's just caldari vs gallente and amarr vs minmatar.
Have to say, this would be ideal to me. Perhaps with just ties, but not outright alliance, between Gallente/Minmatar and Amarr/Caldari.
If that doesn't happen, I hope it does devolve into 4 factions being separate.
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I'd like to see the alliances changed. Caldari-Matar and Amarr-Gallente. That would even out the distribution of players on each side, remove the good side/evil side paradigm, and make more sense from a training viewpoint (hey, you use shields? I use shields too!). It would also be more fun, after all this time - how does a liberal democracy handle teaming up with a monarchic theocracy? How do a State of corporations handle working with a Tribal society?
This would be a shake-up that would actually be interesting, and force everyone to make some interesting choices. Including me, with my roughly 10.00 Empire standings. :P
But, I don't think it will happen.
From a strictly personal view, and for reasons I won't go too deeply into, I would very much like to see this happen.
It would take a truly inspired storyline to make sense of it in light of the history and traditional politics of New Eden, though. In addition, there would be a huge disparity in regard to freedom of movement for pilots of the two sides. If I don't fail my math, one bloc would, by default, control 16 regions (including Khanid and Derelik), the other only 7. I'm not sure that is unproblematic.
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I don't see it as easily doable without the sort of storytelling that I would prefer CCP avoid - in particular on the Gallente-Amarr side of it. Unlike the Minmatar/Caldari, who before the war could have cared less about eachother, the Gallente and Amarr have quite a lot of incompatibility built in.
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I don't think this will head directly to changes in FW. The way I see it, these alliances came into existance without really making sense outside game mechanics. Introducing these new dynamics, what they're doing is really fleshing out those relations, showing that the alliances aren't as solid as they seem, just mostly arrangements of convenience with their own inner tensions and problems. I see it more as a greying and developing of the background than actually heading to changes in FW.
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I don't think this will head directly to changes in FW. The way I see it, these alliances came into existance without really making sense outside game mechanics. Introducing these new dynamics, what they're doing is really fleshing out those relations, showing that the alliances aren't as solid as they seem, just mostly arrangements of convenience with their own inner tensions and problems. I see it more as a greying and developing of the background than actually heading to changes in FW.
I really, really hope this is the case. I am sure we all have seen what CCP has considered good ideas in the past, I am not going to be happy with a repeat of a super-derp moment like the 'one day war'.
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I don't think they will flip alliances to Gallente-Amarr and Caldari-Matari...
I think they will dissolve the Alliances, though. Not sure if this will lead to (armed) conflict between the former allies, though I wouldn't be surprised.
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I think alliances will be dropped, and gameplay wise this will just drop the inter-connectivity between Amarr/Caldari and Gallente/Minmatar.
These were bad alliances to begin with anyway.
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I think alliances will be dropped, and gameplay wise this will just drop the inter-connectivity between Amarr/Caldari and Gallente/Minmatar.
These were bad alliances to begin with anyway.
I would tend to agree with the sentiment, and hope for the result. I don't know that they were exactly bad alliances, but I would see them as improbably close. So with luck there will be a de-linking.
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The thing I see with it is, the Alliances worked pretty good so far. They have been proven to be assets. I don't see why one should give them up, easily and so far I'm not convinced by what CCP produced to move the factions into the direction of dissolving the alliances. It doesn't feel like a natural development to me, but forced because they want it that way. vOv
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Make the wars about something more likely and meaningful, and perhaps nerf high/low-sec mission as a consequence to this giving players incentives to go help in the war-effort etc. It could be freaking great, if done right and balanced, or maybe not if pulled off half-assedly.
Why is there always someone to systematically flamebait with "nerfing high sec missions" when it comes to the subject of incentives for players to go into lowsec ? These damn missions are already so unrewarding that I have difficulties to see it otherwise... :/
I'd like to see the alliances changed. Caldari-Matar and Amarr-Gallente. That would even out the distribution of players on each side, remove the good side/evil side paradigm, and make more sense from a training viewpoint (hey, you use shields? I use shields too!). It would also be more fun, after all this time - how does a liberal democracy handle teaming up with a monarchic theocracy? How do a State of corporations handle working with a Tribal society?
This would be a shake-up that would actually be interesting, and force everyone to make some interesting choices. Including me, with my roughly 10.00 Empire standings. :P
But, I don't think it will happen.
Sounds interesting.
I don't see it as easily doable without the sort of storytelling that I would prefer CCP avoid - in particular on the Gallente-Amarr side of it. Unlike the Minmatar/Caldari, who before the war could have cared less about eachother, the Gallente and Amarr have quite a lot of incompatibility built in.
I could list as many as incompatibilities between the Caldari and the Minmatar, mostly on their society. Even if it is true that Gallente-Amarr are some kind of archnemesis to each other, there was also huge affinities like Aidonis-Heideran, and a supremacist mindset.
That dynamic could even become extremely deep potentially since most Amarr/Gallente would literally loathe that alliance.
EDIT : What I mean is that I don't consider the Caldari and Minmatar to be closer to each other than the Gallente and the Amarr are. Both relationships are extremely antagonistic and yet share a lot of inner values.
Where the Caldari and the Minmatar share the same inner values, their external values are completely opposed. Internally, both the Caldari and the Minmatar strive for their own people and try to evade each a different invasive/supremacist enemy. They both are very proud of their own and selfish in their own way, just willing to remain in their corner. They also both live in collectivist societies, where the individual is lessened compared to the whole entity. However, on the form, the Caldari follow meritocracy/oligarchy/plutocracy and all of this applied in a cold and efficient way (I never completely believed in passionate irrational Caldari about their traditions, they just care a lot about it because it has to be that way and not another, but that's just me), where the Minmatar mostly follow rules of seniority/symbolism/fate and all of this magnified by emotions and passion.
Where the Amarr and the Gallente share the same inner values, their external values are completely opposed. To the core, both the Gallente and the Amarr believe in a superior ideology and way of life, and both believe that every man has to better himself and others. They both believe in the well being of everyone on the long run and both are societies based on the individual before the collective. However, on the external side, well, the Gallente have that selfish hedonist prejudice, where the Amarr have that religious stuck ups cliche. Liberty vs Celestial Order. etc.
Heh, if I ever wanted to go into the rubbish, Minmatar would be fire, Caldari ice (2 faces of the same thing), Amarr earth and Gallente wind (2 faces of the same thing).
Am I rambling ? Oh yes, probably. Sorry for the derail.
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Make the wars about something more likely and meaningful, and perhaps nerf high/low-sec mission as a consequence to this giving players incentives to go help in the war-effort etc. It could be freaking great, if done right and balanced, or maybe not if pulled off half-assedly.
Why is there always someone to systematically flamebait with "nerfing high sec missions" when it comes to the subject of incentives for players to go into lowsec ? These damn missions are already so unrewarding that I have difficulties to see it otherwise... :/
It's not meant as flamebait at all, more like a proposed consequence of a situation where the pirate factions are directly at war with the Empires. It would be hard to explain how say, the blooders can still send large groups into Amarrian Space when the Imperial navy is bashing down the doors in Delve, for instance. Kind of needed elsewhere.
On the other hand, raids into enemy space can be an explanation.
On the other OTHER hand, missions are extremely unrealistic from a game-play and immersion standpoint anyhow, so whatever. vOv
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Sorry if I didn't understand well then.
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When it comes to all but a handful of missions, ignoring is the best answer IMO.
After all, there are still missions that warn of "impending conflict with the Republic" which have been unchanged through the years of FW. :ugh:
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Might just be me, but I'd be all for having an Everybody vs. Everybody scenario, a fracturing of CONCORD authority and the creation a giant lake of lowsec where a whole bunch of ships can go in but not many get out of sort of thunderdome. Should also balkanize the factions along certain ideological/tribal/corporate/house lines to increase some of that internal friction and get people to start choosing sides within them.
Might be interesting to participate in the era where the century of enforced peace and understanding between men and nations begin to buckle under the strain of war and conflict as capsuleers and Dust Troops slowly drive the cluster into a Dark Age.
At the very least it will prevent all the cross-plexing in other zones everytime one militia hits Tier 4/5
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Interesting but I am not sure that CONCORD loyalists would appreciate that murder their faction like that.
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The pirate factions, especially Blooders, have access to Empire space because they are using gates that are unknown to the Empire.
At least this is what I gathered from the COSMOS missions.
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Clearly how the leaders of the Empires now think:
(http://i.imgur.com/Aa6MoYr.gif)
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The Caldari meritocracy (in principle, anyway) would be conflicting with the Minmatar tribal trend for nepotism. (some tribes more than others).
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The pirate factions, especially Blooders, have access to Empire space because they are using gates that are unknown to the Empire.
At least this is what I gathered from the COSMOS missions.
Same for me, It's not like the Empire let them in on their own. The example I used simply considered a loss of mission with the idea that rats would stop comming ot Empire space because they were needed at home in an open war. Ofc, after that the whole nature of missions came to the fore and frankly there would be argumetns for and against missions stopping even with a major war going.
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The Caldari meritocracy (in principle, anyway) would be conflicting with the Minmatar tribal trend for nepotism. (some tribes more than others).
I actually think the Caldari meritocracy fits better with the Minmatar tribal system than it does with the Amarr.
Think about it: The Amarrian system is a feudal system based on birthrights and bloodlines. There is a route upward for slaves to integrate into society, but they're not going to then become holders. In the Caldari system, power goes to those who can take it. While Minmatar tribes do limit people's prospects arbitrarily (based on how that person's voluval turns out), there's also a (new, perhaps) tradition of outcasts developing new and powerful enterprises themselves. This is ultimately very Caldari, I think. Those who can, do (and if they can't within the context of their tribe or clan, they can break from them and follow their dreams on their own). Those who cannot typically have a place where they are taken care of while contributing - a "Joe" Lai Dai worker is still a Lai Dai worker with all the benefits that this entails, just as a "Joe" Brutor is still a Brutor with all the benefits *that* entails.
Interesting that in certain ways, the Caldari are culturally closer to the Minmatar than either are to the Gallente.
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There is a route upward for slaves to integrate into society, but they're not going to then become holders.
Actually, this is one of the biggest misconceptions, ever: The Udorian Tash-Murkon family, who isn't only a family of holders, but a royal family, started out, being Udorian, as slaves. Many Udorian holders stem, probably, from families that were enslaved, once, the same is true for the few Ni-Kunni holders.
I also don't buy into the argument that how Matari handle being outcast is something 'very Caldari'. It might be from a certain perspective but about everything is from a certain perspective like something else from a certain perspective. The trick isn't looking from the perspective that makes things look alike when you want them to look alike and to look from the perspectives that make things look not alike if you want them to not look alike, but to look at things from several perspectives to begin with to approximate a more objective point of view.
So, yes, if I think about it like that then the Matari and the Caldari seem very similar, but unless you want to advertise for this way of thinking about it (which you gave little reason for, imho) it's not a good argument for how the Caldari meritocracy fits with Matari tribalism, as it ignores other ways to think about it and avoids to engage those.
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There are Ni-Kunni holders? I mean, I would think there would be, but is there actual confirmation now?
Also, a route upward toward going from slave to holder over a couple (dozen, probably?) generations is different than a route from being a factory worker to an executive in your own lifetime. I've always thought that a (loose, arms length) agreement (if not alliance) between the Republic and the State made some sense. Though admittedly I wouldn't want to ally with the State while Heth was in charge, and no doubt the Fed has levers to keep them apart too.
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There are Ni-Kunni holders? I mean, I would think there would be, but is there actual confirmation now?
Yes, here (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Holders#Demographics)
There are few Ni-Kunni Holders, though that number is likely to increase in the coming generations. The few Ni-Kunni Holders that exist are primarily the descendants of early collaborators during the Amarr conquest of Mishi IV. Most Ni-Kunni Holders remain in Aridia, a relatively poor and often-neglected region of the Empire. However, as more Ni-Kunni merchants gain influence in the Empire, and the current Ni-Kunni Holders gain in prestige, it is likely the number will increase and may one day rival the Khanid minority in size.
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There is a route upward for slaves to integrate into society, but they're not going to then become holders.
Actually, this is one of the biggest misconceptions, ever: The Udorian Tash-Murkon family, who isn't only a family of holders, but a royal family, started out, being Udorian, as slaves. Many Udorian holders stem, probably, from families that were enslaved, once, the same is true for the few Ni-Kunni holders.
Point taken about the Udorians and Ni-Kunni. I should have properly said that there was no route for those individuals. There is certainly a route upward for families, over the long term.
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Also, here:
The Ni-Kunni occupy a middle ground in Amarr society. They only claim a few small families as Holders, but they have a very large number of wealthy merchants and businessmen among them, giving them more influence than their size would suggest. Ni-Kunni businesses flourish in many areas of the Empire and several industries run on the backbone of Ni-Kunni ingenuity and acumen. However, many Ni-Kunni remain poor and live around the poverty line.
and here: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Ni-Kunni#Holders (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Ni-Kunni#Holders)
Also, in Caldari society it's rare for individuals to go from the lowest rungs up to the highest echelons of their society as well, no? That's why Heth was partly so popular among the Caldari plebs, because he promised to put the plutocracy out of the system and steer it back to meritocracy, no? At least, that's how I understood that (but I'm no expert on the Caldari, so I might have mistaken that).
And then there is the Imperial Navy and the clerical institutions in the Empire (also the ACS), which allow for a lot more mobility on the individual basis, offering vast chances of improving the individual lot up to stations that rival in influence the greatest holders. It's just not hereditary.
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I don't think you can really point at the Ni-Kunni for your examples here. They've certainly managed to fill nearly all strata of Amarrian society, but they've been a part of it for many generations. A better example might be the Minmatar. While you might point to the Ammatar Mandate, it appears to mostly exist as a form of damage control following the Minmatar rebellions.
You are correct, though, in that it's rare for someone to go from the lowest rung to the highest in Caldari society. At the same time, it is not unknown. The fundamental difference is that it is possible for someone on the lowest rung of Caldari society to - through hard work and grit and ability - rise to the highest. That would be akin to a a Minmatar slave rising to become the head of a major Amarrian house.
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I don't think it would be akin to that. Also, a Minmatar with the wrong voluval can't ever become president (or vice president) of the Republic either...
As I said, a simple commoner can come quite far in the IN or in the church isntitutions. An Abbot of a monastery is practically a minor holder, already... That's achievable.
I don't think that criminals or non-citizens come very far in the State (slaves are non-citizens), even after they were naturalized as citizens. Not to speak of those people in the State who ended up in the non-entity caste. Like, say someone with a mental disability^or someone who just got un-lucky?
So, when did last time someone from the non-entity-caste arise to the Executive class, which, traditionally is "considered impenetrable"? Not even Heth did that (starting out as non-entity) and what he did there was basically unheard of in all of Caldari history. He's an anomaly.
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Otro Gariushi?
Former Gurista.
Head of Ishukone.
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Otro Gariushi?
Former Gurista.
Head of Ishukone.
Not officially known as such, the State would never willingly let a Gurista become anything at all but a prisoner in the State, unless said Gurista is simply dragged to a wall and given a last smoke instead.
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"Amarrian system is a generational meritocracy, we reward good upbringing and stability."
^ That would be Crows selling point to the Caldari. Not entirely untrue, me thinks. 8)
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Generational meritocracy. I like that.
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Aristocracy, rule of the best. With who the best are being revealed by the merits of families over generations.
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Otro Gariushi?
Former Gurista.
Head of Ishukone.
Not officially known as such, the State would never willingly let a Gurista become anything at all but a prisoner in the State, unless said Gurista is simply dragged to a wall and given a last smoke instead.
Yah, being Gurist doesn't mean necessarily being a non-entity to the State, especially if you conceal it well. So it's more like how Karsoth as Sani Sabik was able to seize control over the Empire, for a time.
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So, when did last time someone from the non-entity-caste arise to the Executive class, which, traditionally is "considered impenetrable"? Not even Heth did that (starting out as non-entity) and what he did there was basically unheard of in all of Caldari history. He's an anomaly.
I didn't say it was common, of course it's very rare. Heth is still an interesting example, as he started out as a Home Guard soldier. After he was dismissed (oooh, we can add "dishonored" to his description), he went on to become an MTAC operator - a miner in a mechanized exoskeleton. Not a "non-entity", but certainly just a generic blue-collar background.