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[Katrina Oniseki]

People tend to think 'Liberal' means the same treehugging baby kissing thing as it means in reality or in the Federation. It's a common thought pattern that because we're Liberals, we're easy targets or weaker than the rest of the State. While it's true that Ishukone is financially destitute, mostly thanks to TonyG... we're not weak willed spineless coward white-knights.

White-Knight. That's probably the best descriptor of what TonyG did to us. He turned us into people who would rather give away Insorum than sell it. While I'm playing along with that line, because it is technically PF... I think it's a ridiculous concept that completely craps all over who Otro Gariushi was in the original chrons.

In my mind, Gariushi would have been far more likely to sell Insorum at a steep price, but offer to waive the fee if Ishukone is given access to tech, resources, and market exclusivity within the Republic. He'd have sold Insorum for the price of their very souls. The difference between that and Practicals is that instead of demanding payment up front and simply bleeding the Republic dry, Ishukone would have woven tendrils deep into the Republic and nearly taken the damn thing over, stealing influence over it from the Gallente.

Ishukone is just as ruthless as the Practicals. Hell we have an entire Fiction Series about Otro Gariushi by that very name. Ruthless. We do deals under the table with Guristas, we impose de facto 'slavery' on Federation citizens under completely legal employment contracts, we suck resources from the Republic and sell them arms, while selling TCMCs to the Amarr. Why TCMCs? Because it is the perfect answer to our selling Insorum. The Amarr stop using their Vitoc method because we gave the Minmatar Insorum, so now they invest heavily in our proprietary TCMCs to control their slaves. Perfect. We are completely unscrupulous, and offer no apologies for it... because we don't have to.

Liberal Caldari does not mean we're in bed with Mr. Federation. It means we're ****ing his wife while he's at work, then playing poker with him and taking his paychecks on Wednesday. It means we're shaking your hand while hiding a knife behind our back. It means by dealing with us, you benefit from the deals... but not nearly as much as we do. You just don't know it until it's too late.

Creliere is a perfect example. Ishukone came in and built a mutual research agreement with the Federation, all under the guise of friendship and cooperation, happily shaking hands and kissing babies just as you'd expect. Once the project came up with some interesting stuff... what did Gariushi do? He walked out the front doors with all the BPOs and left the Fed little to nothing. He ripped ALL of them off.

So please, understand... Ishukone may be broke right now, for reasons I can scarcely understand beyond , but we are not weak.

EDIT

Here's a new proverb for you: "Beware the Liberal bearing gifts."

[Pieter Tuulinen]

This interpretation of the Liberals makes a great deal more sense to me than the one I'd picked up from just noddling around with Caldari RP.

Digging into the pre-TonyG chrons makes Kat's interpretation a lot more  valid and makes the faction into something I could imagine being a part of, but I'm aware that I don't have quite the knowledge of PF that some of the older players do, and I'm looking forward to reading more opinions.

[Katrina Oniseki]

Something else to wonder about is Why is Ishukone in financial ruin?

Is it because we're too fair? Is it because we're not producing? Is it because we're not inventing? Is it because we made bad investment choices? Is it because we have corruption in accounting?

I haven't yet seen a straight reason in PF for why Ishukone is destitute. Maybe I missed it completely, which is entirely plausible for me... but I don't honestly recall seeing the exact reason why we have no money, beyond something about needing a 'pipeline product'. I don't see how that makes any sense. What do CBD have? What do Hyasyoda, or Lai Dai, or Wiyrkomi... or even Kaalakiota.... what do any of them have that Ishukone can't seem to match? How is Ishukone the financially weakest mega in the entire State, despite being the third largest?

Why is it that CBD is able to make a fat living off shipping and distribution, yet Ishukone can't make a living off being the State equivalent of Intel or Google? We are the State's tech giant. Most of the advanced tech that comes out of the State comes from us. Even if you counted only the most basic of services... our patents should be numerous enough to give us plenty of cashflow... not 'just barely enough to survive'.

The financial ruin thing doesn't seem like it's a product problem. It seems like, if anything, we may be suffering the wounds of internal corruption or maybe made some bad investments. I'll admit that maybe CCP's big reason for this situation is that we are still being white-knighted... and our trade deals are too 'fair and balanced' for us to make serious cash on them, or even worse... those trade deals are not in our favor at all.

[Katrina Oniseki]

PF Quotes for your reference:

Ishukone is a corporation with a long and storied history in the Caldari State. A special point of pride for the company is their contribution of Jovian hydrostatic capsule technology to the war effort during the Gallente-Caldari War. Ishukone’s primary business model deals with the development of high-end technologies in fields such as advanced spacecraft engineering, electronics, medicine, and biotechnology.

The megacorporation is the leader of the liberal bloc in Caldari politics, a position it has held since Otro Gariushi seized control of the company during a period of complacency and decline in YC100. Under his leadership, the company advocated free market policies, relaxed trade barriers, and an easing of tensions between the State and the Gallente Federation. Gariushi also gave the company its reputation for being relatively employee friendly and for its ruthless competitive practices with rival companies.

As a result, Ishukone remains a reluctant partner in the Caldari Providence Directorate. With little choice but to go along with the Directorate after Gariushi's death, the corporate leadership remains of two minds about the situation. On the one hand, many board members support the meritocratic reforms instituted by the Directorate, which were similar to policies already in place under Gariushi. However, considerable resistance to the centralization of power and the Directorate's belligerence remains among the corporate leadership.

Ishukone is one of the "Big Eight" megacorporations, and a member of the Caldari State's "Liberal" faction. Easily one of the smallest of the Megacorps, Ishukone was for a long time also one of the feeblest. This changed, and Ishukone became competitive with the other megacorporations, after they were gifted with capsule technology by the Jovians - a patent that has since proven highly lucrative.

Perhaps because of this contact with the Jove, Ishukone's technology is reckoned to be the best in the Caldari State, making Ishukone one of the most technologically advanced entities in the cluster. They are responsible for several popular and powerful ship designs, including the "Raven"-class battleship, the "Harpy" assault frigate and the "Vulture" Command Ship.

These lucrative patents have kept Ishukone stable in the world of Caldari economics ever since the Gallente-Caldari War, though the income from them has never quite been enough to allow the corporation to rest easy, and its fortunes have fluctuated over the years as the corporation has constantly searched for the next big "pipeline product" to keep it going. The most recent of these was to be Insorum, the antidote to the slavery drug Vitoc.

Comprised of the Hyasyoda Corporation and Ishukone Corporation, the Liberals bloc believes in the principles of free trade and generally cooperative relations with foreign powers. They are the strongest supporters of CONCORD in the Caldari State.

The Liberals found themselves in a severely weakened position following the death of Otro Gariushi and the undermining of CONCORD authority by the Minmatar Elders. Espousing fair treatment for all, both within the State and without, they're somewhat ambivalent about recent events; though disquieted by the sneak attack against the Gallente and the atrocities that surrounded it, they recognize that it would be unwise to criticize Heth's actions publicly—and though they prefer not to admit it, they too have been invigorated by the State's recent military victories.

Overall, then, the Liberals are ambivalent when it comes to the Heth question. While they disapprove of his methods, many of his stated ideals resonate strongly with the faction. They're waiting to see what happens before deciding which side to come down on, but regardless, they are prepared to take decisive action to prevent their own goals from being subverted.

Notes that I do not have PF sources on hand for, so I will admit they may not be wholly accurate:

• de facto slavery of Fed citizens - this is an extrapolation of how I believe working for a Mega would be. It's inflexible, even for expats.
• sucking resources and selling guns to the republic - plausible, but not confirmed in direct PF
• Third largest mega in the State - I've heard this several times before, but have not actually seen a PF source to support it
• Most advanced tech from State comes from Ishukone - again, extrapolation based off how much the PF emphasized our technology
• CBD is about shipping and distribution - this is another extrapolation based on the corp description. CBD is notably lacking in proper PF.

[John Revenent]

Yep. Kat as usual nailed it.

[Desiderya]

I agree. That's the baseline all caldari share to varying degrees. Being liberal doesn't mean that one's not ruthless, practical, patriotic or utilitaristic. I've always seen it more as a way to distinguish between the means through which the goals are achieved, with the goals being very similar between the factions.

And Otro was a magnificient bastard. 

[Saede Riordan]

yeah, you guys are pretty sexy as a faction.

[Matoko]

I personally like the idea of the Caldari Liberal. Much preferable, from an outsiders point of view, to the Practical. The latter will run you for everything you've got, and beat you until you've given everything you have. The former, while no less interested in the same, will at be polite about it. And heck, you might even end up with something sustainable (correct me if I'm wrong, but the liberal Caldari also strike me as thinking a bit more long-term than most), so long as you're smart about your dealings.

That, I can respect. Plus, Ishukone is helping out the Intaki, and I have a soft-spot for the Intaki. It's not charity, I realize, but I wouldn't expect them to put effort into something without anticipating some sort of payout.

[Katrina Oniseki]

I personally like the idea of the Caldari Liberal. Much preferable, from an outsiders point of view, to the Practical. The latter will run you for everything you've got, and beat you until you've given everything you have. The former, while no less interested in the same, will at be polite about it. And heck, you might even end up with something sustainable (correct me if I'm wrong, but the liberal Caldari also strike me as thinking a bit more long-term than most), so long as you're smart about your dealings.

This is largely accurate. The Practicals aren't interested in long term deals with outsiders. They're willing to deal with them, but would prefer things reach a profitable endpoint sooner rather than later, because they don't really enjoy working with the outsiders at all.

That, I can respect. Plus, Ishukone is helping out the Intaki, and I have a soft-spot for the Intaki. It's not charity, I realize, but I wouldn't expect them to put effort into something without anticipating some sort of payout.

I think this unusually friendly and cooperative stance was mostly due to Ishukone's poor financial state at the time. They weren't able to strong-arm anyone yet. Also, there doesn't seem to be any real profit in Intaki anyways. There may not be a reason to push the envelope, because there's no margins there to push for. I sometimes have to wonder why Ishukone bothered in the first place.

[Matoko]

Exclusive shipping rights, to start. Also a positive PR gesture, towards the Federation. FedMart, for example, might not be willing to deal with Kaalakiota, but they might be willing to talk to Ishukone. Again, the long-term benefits of having improved relations. Or at least reputation. Plus, the Intaki and their various defenders owe a bit of a debt still. Might be something to call in one day.

[Gesakaarin]

The problem I have always thought is people reading too much into the "Liberal" tag with Ishukone. To me, the the factional blocs aren't hard and fast descriptors, they're more just common notions and stereotypes might attach to certain Megas and would vary subjectively depending on which Mega one works for. They're all negative connotations in that:

Patriots: You guys care too much about the old ways to make way for progress and growth. You do not understand business.

Practicals: You guys are too focused on the bottom line and screwing people over. You do not understand business.

Liberals: You guys are too focused on playing nice with foreigners and others. You do not understand business.

When it comes to Ishukone and the Liberals however, it just feels like instead of understanding that their playing nice so to speak is solely intended as a means of PR to ensure their own interests are maintained and like any proper Caldari are more than willing to screw people over for their own self-interest. The problem if any with Ishukone is that Liberal tag and the fact that a lot of characters and players then go and seem to derive that it means they're in fact liberal in the modern political and philosophical sense. Once that's done then of course other Caldari might perceive their thoughts and opinions as being too Gallente, because the Federation is the only place that those concepts would have been born.

There might be nothing wrong with that particularly, because it might very well fit into how Ishukone and the Liberals are perceived domestically in the State currently in that no matter how hard they try they're still going to get snickered at for their views and policies even if all the foreigners seem to like them and do business with them.

As for Ishukone facing financial ruin, I think that's intertwined as to just why it's sought different policies than other Megas and the fact that it's so focused externally on foreign markets. Ishukone cannot compete effectively in the domestic markets in the State because it simply doesn't have the size or capital Kaalakiota or SuVee can wield to ensure market dominance for themselves and their allied Megas. Ishukone, being squeezed between two leviathans in the State is left with little option but to pursue profits in foreign markets and that I think is what drives its trade policies and politics.

[Vikarion]

The Practicals tend to be the short term thinkers. They're mercantilists, trying to get as much as possible without giving anything back. They're also the most ruthless. Why? Well, you never know what's going to happen tomorrow, or what the situation will be. Thus, it's in your interest to be the most ruthless, rich, and large corporation in the cluster, now.

The Liberals are long term economic thinkers. They're what Kat said, and they know that they'll get more over the long run if they hold to certain principles and act wisely. That said, they're more dependent on long term stability and predictability than the Practicals.

The Patriots are long term political thinkers. What they do economically is certainly important, but their aims are also driven by politics. This makes them less competitive, but it also gives them the opportunity to shape future economic possibilities.

[Publius Valerius]

People tend to think 'Liberal' means the same treehugging baby kissing thing as it means in reality or in the Federation. It's a common thought pattern that because we're Liberals, we're easy targets or weaker than the rest of the State. While it's true that Ishukone is financially destitute (1), mostly thanks to TonyG... we're not weak willed spineless coward white-knights.

White-Knight (2). That's probably the best descriptor of what TonyG did to us. He turned us into people who would rather give away Insorum than sell it. While I'm playing along with that line, because it is technically PF... I think it's a ridiculous concept that completely craps all over who Otro Gariushi was in the original chrons (3).

True. And if I may add numbers to your argument and start with the easist one: 3.

(3) As you rightful mention, his picture doesnt fit with the PF which was in place before TO and TEA. But thats him, as for me he never told a story of EVE, just his story of EVE. Maybe one day I make a long boring 30 page essay, about TonyG PF errors; and uploaded it as pdf. So that I always can link stuff, and I havent to repeat myself again and again, etc....

(2) I think White-Knight is a nice term, and is less provocative as I had in mind. I think, the problem is, that first he has brought a lot of his own world view to this book (which isnt, that bad. Thanks to TonyG positive association with that term "liberal" you get the KNIGHT part. I dont know him, but if I see this book as his statement I would guess does he isnt anti-Liberal/Democrat). Secondly, that he trys to get this formula "Caldari Liberals"="North American understanding of Liberalism". Which as you rightfully mention isnt true. Caldari Liberals are far from being "modern Social Democrates"/"Tony Blair style Labour Party". As for me they where just the most economic liberals in the Caldari bloc. Which has bring them close the NeoLiberal ideals. By the way: NeoLiberalism isnt a economics term, it comes form political science, to be precisely from the international relations. It is more the understanding, that economical freedom, market participation and interdependenz would lead to a interconnections between the players/nations in the international relations; which then would lead to less conflicts between them (as it takes "anarchy elements" form them; and brings them under the realm of the invisible hand....etc). This interconnectioness is another tool, next to the selfhelp system, which secures survival, security and PEACE. But, I have gone now off topic again  . As for me the Caldari Liberals were never Democrats POINT.

(1) I dont understand it either. You can also add to the TCMCs, this news. I understand, that a company which deals with capital intensive goods, superior goods + a capital intensive production has the need for cash; but it doesnt mean it is broke. Thats is a point which I have try to show indirectly on my old CAESA page (see here. before I have deleted all my stuff as protest of the Khanid Kingdom lore changes.). "Today for many historians is this step of the Empire not so surprising, than since the beginning of the war in the year YC 110 the Caldari State and his major corporations were underfunded and thirsted for capital;" Is a line which I have added. So I get they need capital, as I mention before for their business, you can also add here for their fleet. As the Caldari navy and the corporate fleets are more up to date as others, which means that they are more capital intensive and bound more capital.
BUT ALL THIS POINTS DONT MEAN THAT THEY ARE BROKE. So, I get your point and agree you are right. Needing liquid cash (which they got thru CAESA and the market most likely) and being broke are two different things. I try not to make a 60 page essay about false statements of TonyG. Kat, Just go out and say: Needing liquid capital ≠ financially destitute. It is just one of his false equations. I try not do a 90 page rant-essay about his others f*** ups, and his macro-macro "analysis".

[Katrina Oniseki]

All excellent points, PV. Anybody who is adverse to reading Publius' posts should definitely take the time to read the one above. He hit the nail on the head.

[Publius Valerius]

All excellent points, PV. Anybody who is adverse to reading Publius' posts should definitely take the time to read the one above. He hit the nail on the head.

Thanks. Publius huges Kat  . About "adverse"; I get this often. See Minmatar-Caldari friendship thread  , Eternes Khanid Kingdom lore change thread  , Slavery thread  . So currently I dont mind; Im alread useded to comments like: "I define it that why" aka the more educated version of: "I said so." Or: "I have a english Bachelor, unlike you" aka the more educated version of: "Im right because I can english, unlike you."

So. If anyone has a question, just ask. For example what I mean with Neoliberalism? Just ask. Should I make a example, just ask. Should I flash out more, just ask. But oneliners arent a form a falsifaction  . So my rant is over. By the way nice post of the others. If I come one day back, maybe I make a wiki caldari politcal roaster page. As I find here some good way HOW TO SPLIT the caldari political world.