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[Svetlana Scarlet]

I think pre-CDS the Caldari were likely still only an industrial-era culture with little in the way of advanced tech, so I doubt they were doing much offworld at that point (think 1800s Western Europe/US).

My personal thoughts on the differences between Caldari and Gallente colonization was that Gallente Prime was more habitable and therefore a more moderate terraforming project was put in place, and the initial colonists were able to move to the planet without too much in the way of extra preparation. On Caldari Prime, which was much more hostile, instead of simply terraforming the planet to make it more habitable, the initial colonists were also gene-modded (parahumans, in Transhuman Space parlance) to adapt better to Caldari Prime; the Civire and Deteis were actually competing lines of genemods which were developed for the colonists there (and perhaps the Men of the West were another). This allowed them to survive much easier than a "normal" human would have been able to. I would probably also guess that the vast majority of Caldari food plants and livestock are transgenic organisms of one type or another, imported to the planet with the ability to survive the harsh environment and provide the population with nutrients and resources that might not be provided by the local (very limited) ecosystem. The parahuman genemods of Caldari probably also gave them the ability to digest native amino acids and avoid severe allergic reactions to the native "wildlife" (which was, at least in my mind, limited to small oceanic life).

[orange]

They weren't on ships forever though, they had places to go.

But what were those places is an equally important question.  Just because you have a place to go (secret colonies) does not mean those places can actually support an influx of people without imposing strict regulation and rationing on the resources available.  Those fleeing conflict rarely bring with them all the resources necessary to establish immediate survival and local infrastructure is not going to be prepared to accept a rapid influx (without extensive pre-planning).

If the assumption is that the secret colonies were complete worlds, a discussion of individual liberty becomes an important one.  A cultural predisposition on to deal with harsher environments and a need for collective survival may hasten a cultural elimination of the practice of individual liberty.

The argument for Caldari collective libertarianism is tied to the idea that to survive in truly harsh environment requires that the family/clan/ship/station/company not practice individual liberty or cease to exist.*  I think it is not a stretch to argue that ante bellum Caldari culture had a predisposition to this due to arising on Caldari Prime, but this was then reinforced as a result of the Exodus and GCW.


*I would go as far as to argue that humanity's first space colonies will practice collective libertarianism, but that is a different discussion.

[Svetlana Scarlet]

That's a good point. Presumably there were habitable planets in the Caldari colonies (New Caldari Prime seems to be much more hospitable than Caldari Prime was, anyway), so you probably don't have a problem with people simply not being able to live there at all, but no doubt the flood of refugees stressed resources and infrastructure considerably for the first few years.

[Vieve]

I think pre-CDS the Caldari were likely still only an industrial-era culture with little in the way of advanced tech, so I doubt they were doing much offworld at that point (think 1800s Western Europe/US).

Oh, I agree.  But, I also riff from this:

AD 22588 - The Gallente and the Caldari build their first stargate out of VH-451, sparking a period of expansion which mostly benefits the Gallente.
AD 22631 - The Cultural Deliverance Society arrives on Caldari Prime.

So, there were some Caldari involved in the stargate reconstruction project, if only a token effort in the 'interests of planetary brotherhood' (or however it would have been phrased).  I've always assumed their work there may have been fascinating to folks back on Caldari Prime and the sociocultural/economic tipping point toward the Caldari wanting to develop a space program of their own. 

Prior to then, space may primarily (or solely) have been the preoccupation of Caldari academics, hobbyists, dreamers, and -- post-Gallente contact -- the military.

Was the Caldari push to get into space abetted by some Gallente interests (even inadvertently: presumably the Caldari who were on the stargate project were some of Caldari Prime's best and brightest)?  Discouraged by others?  Sabotaged?  Did it operate clandestinely because of fear of Gallente sabotage?  Or did it operate openly, in defiance of Gallente criticism?  Or openly, with full Gallente support?

I've made a lot of personal hay out of "how far along did the Caldari get before the Cultural Deliverance Society arrived?  The U.S. got to the moon in ten years driven by competition with someone who had fewer material resources but rich intellectual capital.  How far could the Caldari have gotten in forty-three while cribbing from someone who was capable of interplanetary travel and stargate construction?"

(Speaking of that, I've never been sure if CDS was a giant "U R DOIN IT WRONG SO JUST DON'T" or the effort of Gallente interests who genuinely wanted to help.  It could have also been both.)

My personal thoughts on the differences between Caldari and Gallente colonization was that Gallente Prime was more habitable and therefore a more moderate terraforming project was put in place, and the initial colonists were able to move to the planet without too much in the way of extra preparation. On Caldari Prime, which was much more hostile, instead of simply terraforming the planet to make it more habitable, the initial colonists were also gene-modded (parahumans, in Transhuman Space parlance) to adapt better to Caldari Prime; the Civire and Deteis were actually competing lines of genemods which were developed for the colonists there (and perhaps the Men of the West were another). This allowed them to survive much easier than a "normal" human would have been able to. I would probably also guess that the vast majority of Caldari food plants and livestock are transgenic organisms of one type or another, imported to the planet with the ability to survive the harsh environment and provide the population with nutrients and resources that might not be provided by the local (very limited) ecosystem. The parahuman genemods of Caldari probably also gave them the ability to digest native amino acids and avoid severe allergic reactions to the native "wildlife" (which was, at least in my mind, limited to small oceanic life).

*facepalms* Thanks for this.  I've been relying on the idea of post-Collapse microevolution between Gallente and Caldari for way too long without considering that there might have been Terran-colonization era genemods to the original stock. 

 

[K_Wiroshoda]

Well, appears I was too slow and a whole new set of posts have emerged. Good posts. I feel it highlights that the duality between the Gallente and Caldari is not a binary affair but something fluid. To me, this makes their interactions far more interesting than the Amarr and Minmatar conflict.

[Katrina Oniseki]

(Speaking of that, I've never been sure if CDS was a giant "U R DOIN IT WRONG SO JUST DON'T" or the effort of Gallente interests who genuinely wanted to help.  It could have also been both.)

Judging by the way CCP portrays the Gallente, I'd say likely both. The Gallente geniunely feel their way is the best way to do things. It is worth noting that Caldari society before the CDS was very unstable due to the sudden technological boom from contact with the Gallente, without the cultural maturity to go with it.

[Lyn Farel]

I think pre-CDS the Caldari were likely still only an industrial-era culture with little in the way of advanced tech, so I doubt they were doing much offworld at that point (think 1800s Western Europe/US).

My personal thoughts on the differences between Caldari and Gallente colonization was that Gallente Prime was more habitable and therefore a more moderate terraforming project was put in place, and the initial colonists were able to move to the planet without too much in the way of extra preparation. On Caldari Prime, which was much more hostile, instead of simply terraforming the planet to make it more habitable, the initial colonists were also gene-modded (parahumans, in Transhuman Space parlance) to adapt better to Caldari Prime; the Civire and Deteis were actually competing lines of genemods which were developed for the colonists there (and perhaps the Men of the West were another). This allowed them to survive much easier than a "normal" human would have been able to. I would probably also guess that the vast majority of Caldari food plants and livestock are transgenic organisms of one type or another, imported to the planet with the ability to survive the harsh environment and provide the population with nutrients and resources that might not be provided by the local (very limited) ecosystem. The parahuman genemods of Caldari probably also gave them the ability to digest native amino acids and avoid severe allergic reactions to the native "wildlife" (which was, at least in my mind, limited to small oceanic life).

Some kind of Ubermensch ?

[Svetlana Scarlet]

Some kind of Ubermensch ?

Uh, no. I am not trying to say the Caldari were Space Marines, if you think that's what I mean. I am just saying that it's likely the corporations behind the initial colonization of Caldari Prime gave their colonists genemods to make the more suited to the environment they were being sent to. If we colonize Mars one day, and Martian colonists are given genemods to make them better able to breath the thin atmosphere of a terraformed Mars without artificial assistance, that doesn't make them "Ubermensch". Likewise, if you were to colonize an aquatic world, and you gave them some sort of genemod to give them gills, that doesn't make them supermen. The extent of Caldari "superpowers" probably consists of being better able to tolerate the cold one way or another (but likely less tolerant of hot climates) and able to process the local flora and fauna that might cause an allergic reaction or other ill effects without it.

Think of it as the mirror image of terraforming. With terraforming, you change the world to suit the new inhabitants. With genemodding, you change the inhabitants to suit the new world.

[Matariki Rain]

That would actually make sense of the Caldari ability to digest hak'len.

If Herko's story of the social and ritual uses of hak'len is accurate it'd also be a strong disincentive to breeding out.

[K_Wiroshoda]

I do not know if I am going against the grain here, but the idea of non-Caldari getting poisoned by hak'len/kresh sounds like quackery, what with the amount of time the Caldari have been in space.

[Hamish Grayson]

Presumably there would be pills or something one could take before hand.

[Lyn Farel]

Is Hak'len part of PF ?

[Ciarente]

As far as I know it was invented by Herko. Whether it, like Cold Wind (also a Herko invention), has since been 'made canon' by CCP I am not sure.

[Lyn Farel]

Great. :/

[Louella Dougans]

kresh appears in a number of things, though I don't know if that was CCP adopting things that people had written.