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[Lyn Farel]

Goonswarm would cry unholy foul if they were slapped with an automatic criminal tag just by being part of that alliance. I can't say I'd support CCP arbitrarily slapping perma-criminal on an entire alliance anyways.

I would support it if there were certain game mechanics that would end up doing it to your alliance as a result of ingame actions over a period of time though. Simplest and most ham-fisted way would be to create alliance and corporation level security standings. The first based on member corporation's security status, and the second based on individual members. Maybe some sort of mean, median, or average. Or some more complicated formula.

That would be so awesome.

And corporation/alliance standings overriding personnal standings like they do for NPC agents too.

There we really would get consequences for our affiliations and allegiances.

[Saede Riordan]

the problem is one of consequences. We as RPers have to face the consequences of our actions because 1) we want our characters to have a persistent presence in the universe, and 2) because we don't have the resources to endlessly cycle alts in order to cause trouble for others.

The average ganker has no such consequences. Sec status is not at all a major pain for most players, and its fairly easy to keep up sec status. Not to mention the fact that most players don't care about the storyline, and if CCP stopped doing live events and releasing lore, they wouldn't lose any sleep over it. "EVE is about blowing up spaceships" etc. We as RPers have to deal with the consequences of our character's actions. Non-roleplayers don't, they only have to care about the mechanical consequences of the actions they take as the player.

EVE is supposed to have consequences for your actions. But of course, this is a game and CCP doesn't want to lose subs by say, throwing players in jail. So how do you enforce consequences on a group with the power to completely sidestep them without issue and an unwillingness to hurt your bottom line? Your only options seem to be to avoid them (keep events small) make the actors unkillable therefore preventing those consequences from arising in the first place (CCP's choice in this last event) or let the gankers have their way, and see every event go up in flames while the gankers suffer no real consequences. What is CCP supposed to do?

[Esna Pitoojee]

To be 100% clear on something, CCP has already said collective alliance punishment is "not feasible".

Which brings us back to the beginning of the discussion again.

- Repercussions will be metagamed around.
- Suicide attacks combined with tactical safespots make for a strike that is virtually impossible to counteract if you choose to subject yourself to it.
- There is no effective means for people - RPers or just other general interested people - to "push back" at a nullsec-size alliance trying to show up and blow stuff up for giggles.

So then, aside from make their ships invulnerable, what CAN the devs do to preserve the concept of an event without being silly-ganked every time?

[Alizabeth]

To be 100% clear on something, CCP has already said collective alliance punishment is "not feasible".

Which brings us back to the beginning of the discussion again.

- Repercussions will be metagamed around.
- Suicide attacks combined with tactical safespots make for a strike that is virtually impossible to counteract if you choose to subject yourself to it.
- There is no effective means for people - RPers or just other general interested people - to "push back" at a nullsec-size alliance trying to show up and blow stuff up for giggles.

So then, aside from make their ships invulnerable, what CAN the devs do to preserve the concept of an event without being silly-ganked every time?

Just going to copy/paste from Live Events:

So, if you want to defend against the hundred or so Goons that might show up on a good day, bring two hundred. Hold the events in low sec, and use NPSI ROE. I would not complain about CCP cynojamming the system to keep out whatever, as cynojam mechanics are already available to sov alliances. Gank the gankers! You know there are Goons hanging about, it's not like there's a doubt what they are there for. Gank them first! Or, CCP could take the module that's been suggested and add it. Or, war dec Goons! There are tons of options.

Instead of asking "But what can CCP dooooooooo?"  The question should be, "How can we encourage players to protect our ships?"

[Saede Riordan]

So, if you want to defend against the hundred or so Goons that might show up on a good day, bring two hundred.

You're not going to find 100 players available in the largest RPing alliances. Even the summit rarely has more then 50 people in it.

Hold the events in low sec, and use NPSI ROE. I would not complain about CCP cynojamming the system to keep out whatever, as cynojam mechanics are already available to sov alliances.

I would be fine with this but all events can't be in lowsec.

Gank the gankers! You know there are Goons hanging about, it's not like there's a doubt what they are there for. Gank them first!

This is completely infeasible and anyone with a lick of PVP knowledge knows it. The amount of firepower that would be required to alpha the goons alpha fleet is completely absurd and unreasonable to suggest realistically.

Or, war dec Goons!

Now you're just being derpy.

The goons are secure in their position of military dominance and can wave their dick around as much as they want because as you've said repeatedly, they're huge, they get an endless stream of cash from ratting and moon mining, and they have more members then anyone else. You seem to be of the opinion that since your alliance has the biggest dick on the block, they should be able to completely dominate whatever anyone else is trying to do, just because they want to. As if by virtue of just having the most mans, you somehow have more right to dictate what happens in the game then anyone else.

[Katrina Oniseki]

stuff

I was going to systematically comment on what you suggested, but I don't think you really think they are good ideas. I think you're saying that because you are toeing the party line.

I am not going to write here why I think your words don't match your real beliefs, because I'm fairly sure commenting on your personality, motives, and habits here will get me catacombed.

[Alizabeth]

Gank the gankers! You know there are Goons hanging about, it's not like there's a doubt what they are there for. Gank them first!

This is completely infeasible and anyone with a lick of PVP knowledge knows it. The amount of firepower that would be required to alpha the goons alpha fleet is completely absurd and unreasonable to suggest realistically.

you're not ganking an alpha fleet Rokh, you're ganking a gank-fit Talos.  Huge difference.

stuff

I was going to systematically comment on what you suggested, but I don't think you really think they are good ideas. I think you're saying that because you are toeing the party line.

I am not going to write here why I think your words don't match your real beliefs, because I'm fairly sure commenting on your personality, motives, and habits here will get me catacombed.

The most fun I had recently in Eve was Asakai.  I'm going to point out that not only did Goons lose, my carrier got popped.  Despite what people may think, I do not want to ruin the sandbox.  I do, however, want to kick over your sandcastle. 

I'm sure you can figure out a way to make your original post in a way that it will not get modded.  I, personally, don't care if someone insults me.  I gave up on making friends in Eve Online about a month ago. 

[Esna Pitoojee]

You're expecting all the RPers in the game plus a bit more to show up in a unified doctrine fleet and then not care whatsoever about getting their ships CONCORDed.

I have said it before and will say it again: To expect a divided community to act as a unified military force is ridiculous. Stop.

[Saede Riordan]

you're not ganking an alpha fleet Rokh, you're ganking a gank-fit Talos.  Huge difference.

39 Taloses

[Alizabeth]

You're expecting all the RPers in the game plus a bit more to show up in a unified doctrine fleet and then not care whatsoever about getting their ships CONCORDed.

I have said it before and will say it again: To expect a divided community to act as a unified military force is ridiculous. Stop.

Ask for help then.  Maybe mail Marlona Sky:
"Hey, we think Goons are going to come and try and screw with this; any of you interested in screwing them first?"

Judging from the number of people that went halfway across the cluster to kill Goons at Asakai, I'm sure there is someone willing to come screw with Goons.

[Mister Screwball]

You're expecting all the RPers in the game plus a bit more to show up in a unified doctrine fleet and then not care whatsoever about getting their ships CONCORDed.

I have said it before and will say it again: To expect a divided community to act as a unified military force is ridiculous. Stop.

Ask for help then.  Maybe mail Marlona Sky:
"Hey, we think Goons are going to come and try and screw with this; any of you interested in screwing them first?"

Judging from the number of people that went halfway across the cluster to kill Goons at Asakai, I'm sure there is someone willing to come screw with Goons.

There is a very big difference in traveling to go kill Goon supers and traveling to kill a suicide fleet that very few people care about

[Esna Pitoojee]

Ask for help then.  Maybe mail Marlona Sky:
"Hey, we think Goons are going to come and try and screw with this; any of you interested in screwing them first?"

Judging from the number of people that went halfway across the cluster to kill Goons at Asakai, I'm sure there is someone willing to come screw with Goons.

There is a very big difference in traveling to go kill Goon supers and traveling to kill a suicide fleet that very few people care about

Expanding on this, because your fleet is a suicide fleet, it makes no sense for a hostile 0.0 power to show up whatsoever - one way or another, your ships are going to die. Even monetarily, it makes far more sense for them to try to gank you first; why would they want to go and expend ships suicidally with no chance of insurance reimbursement, while allowing you to receive insurance for your ships lost to legitimate player interaction? It makes far more sense from a strategic viewpoint to let you waste your battlecruisers on a target they don't care about.

[Karmilla Strife]

Can we get the Discussion about whether CCP live events should all be killable to another thread? I'm actually very interested in the development of this story arc but it seems that the discussion is well off topic at this point.

[Alizabeth]

You're expecting all the RPers in the game plus a bit more to show up in a unified doctrine fleet and then not care whatsoever about getting their ships CONCORDed.

I have said it before and will say it again: To expect a divided community to act as a unified military force is ridiculous. Stop.

One more thought on this: The solution is to unify.  If the community is as fractured as you say, surely in the face of an external Goon threat people can come together.  There are tools that can be used in the sandbox to counter actions that Goons might take.  It's up to the players to make use of them. 

Cripes, I mean, I'm pretty universally reviled at the moment.  And if people can't even come together because they hate me--that's a problem. 

I'm going to make a push to make sure there is a group of Goons at the next Live Event.  Consider this your call to action.  Try and stop me. 
*Throws down gauntlet, leaves.*

Can we get the Discussion about whether CCP live events should all be killable to another thread? I'm actually very interested in the development of this story arc but it seems that the discussion is well off topic at this point.

There was a news article, saying that the talks were progressing, but I would imagine it would take a while before anything concrete is hammered out.  Making the analogue of a country takes time.

[Silas Vitalia]

Apologies to OP but I'd like to comment to Isis:

Isis I believe you might have some misconceptions about how much people 'hate' you or how often RPers think about you or your organization in general. You are not "universally reviled," as that is self aggrandizement of the highest order.' Please stop making every thread somehow about you or your group, as it's becoming a little weird. 

While much EVE space pew pew is unconsentual and caters to much of your organization's play style, much of this RP community and what they do is consentual and requires ooc cooperation. If you are trying to be a member of this particular little community you might want to think about that and how your communication style and activities contributes or detracts from that.  If you don't care about what anyone here thinks (and that is certainly your right and privilege) then you wouldn't be spending any time here.  I think you do care, but you are showing it in an awfully strange way.