Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Morwen Lagann]

And screwing you over, because you want to screw something over, just to screw something over, is also perfectly valid from CCP's end.

Remember, you are renting a service from them. You don't actually own anything in the game. You pay your $15 or whatever each month, and you get the privilege of access to internet spaceship pixel pew pew. But none of it actually is yours despite that money.

So if CCP doesn't want to play nice with you for whatever reason, they are under absolutely no obligation to do so.

Is it fair? Nope.

Is that EVE? Yup.

[Aldrith Shutaq]

As the jist of the IC thread went:

Deal with it.

[Ciarente]

Given how quick CCP is to declare exploits and even change game mechanics to prevent people messing with Incursions, I'd like to see the same with Live Events.

[Alizabeth]

And screwing you over, because you want to screw something over, just to screw something over, is also perfectly valid from CCP's end.

Remember, you are renting a service from them. You don't actually own anything in the game. You pay your $15 or whatever each month, and you get the privilege of access to internet spaceship pixel pew pew. But none of it actually is yours despite that money.

So if CCP doesn't want to play nice with you for whatever reason, they are under absolutely no obligation to do so.

Is it fair? Nope.

Is that EVE? Yup.

A lot of the backlash and why CCP backed off is because they were interfering in the Sandbox.  I don't expect that will happen again.  As to: "And screwing you over, because you want to screw something over, just to screw something over, is also perfectly valid from CCP's end."  You're absolutely right.  Bring fleets to Deklein, wardec Goons, suicide gank the gankers, any number of things, but don't cry to CCP that the pristine sandcastle should be made out of concrete.  They're not going to do it any more.  There are plenty of tools already in the sandbox to deal with other players.  Goons utilize every one; there is nothing stopping anyone else for using those same tools.  I'm really heartened by CCP Goliath's, Falcon's and Eterne's responses on the Live Events thread.  I think that their perspective bodes well for RP and live events in general. 

There are plenty of tools already in the sandbox to deal with other players.  Goons utilize every one; there is nothing stopping anyone else for using those same tools. 

[Esna Pitoojee]

The problem is, Isis, that none of the plans you lay out are really feasible. As I have repeatedly state above, merely being able to shoot at a group of enemies does not in any way guarantee being able to effectively interdict a group of enemies. You other suggestions range from the tactically unfeasible ("suicide gank the gankers" - do you presume they won't simply use tactical warps?) to the pointless ("wardec goons" - as I said above, :alts: :safespots: :SMAs:) to the utterly ridiculous ("bring a fleet to Deklien" - ahahahahahaha, no).

The honest fact here is that goons have more cards to play than we do. There's no shame in admitting it - the free usage of alts, the utter lack of caring about sec status, the endless mountains of ISK available to the GSF, even the raw number of players they can marshal - leave you with more options than we have to respond with, even before we get into self-constraining actions in individual events - for instance, flying a specific route or ship type.

But, like someone showing up to a sandbox with a snow shovel and claiming you are the ultimate king of the sandbox, the response you get is not likely to be a sagely bowing and nodding of heads in agreement.

It's far more likely people are going to ignore your actions or apply their own rules.

[BloodBird]

Sorry Isis, but when you say "I think that their perspective bodes well for RP and live events in general." I can't help but feel that it rings very hollow.

I've read the tread in question about this and every single goon/test post cheering for Falcon's words because it somehow, in their words, make the sandbox better... it simply read as "we can now fuck over whatever we please with impunity" to me. May not be how it's intended, there might genuinely be goons that care for the sandbox and so on, but I find it so very unlikely.

Sure, very next time a dev actor shows up to do anything, you and your friends will have a jolly good time. But unless CCP does something really smart to level the playing field, no-one else will. I've seen enough goon actions on events to know the only way you consider something to be entertaining.

As an example I still recall the last Federation day, the first one to be announced by actual ISD reports, and the goons showed up in multiple T1 fit Tier3 BC's to... join the parade and chain and the fun? No. To blow up as many ships as possible, preferably the Navy issue Federation ships present. Gee, what fun.

In short, I don't mind events not being railroaded or actors being in some danger, but my general experience with EVE tells me things will get predictable from now on, again unless CCP manages to come up with some manner of response to this issue. Also, I'd welcome any goons to prove me wrong and do something at any event that don't involved ruining everything for everyone else.

[Nmaro Makari]

The post by Vea on LE discussion board had some genuine points of concern.

The IGS post delivered naught but lulz.

I think this mynnna might get my CSM vote.

[Alizabeth]

The post by Vea on LE discussion board had some genuine points of concern.

The IGS post delivered naught but lulz.

I think this mynnna might get my CSM vote.

The IGS is only ever for lulz for me.  And mynnna is an amazing guy.  Very even tempered, smart and someone that I want to represent me to CCP. 

As an example I still recall the last Federation day, the first one to be announced by actual ISD reports, and the goons showed up in multiple T1 fit Tier3 BC's to... join the parade and chain and the fun? No. To blow up as many ships as possible, preferably the Navy issue Federation ships present. Gee, what fun.

What would you propose doing about that?  I'd be rather interested to hear how you would stop that and still have Eve be Eve. 

[BloodBird]

How nice.

"Your enjoyment stems from other's misery and the example provided by the last Federation Day event reflects this very clearly."

"Deal with it, if you can without ruining EVE."

I have no proposal for how this can be avoided because that's not what the message was about, but if I had to propose anything, it would be to keep the event low-key and out of the Goon's attention-span. The previous ones went by without much incident because relatively few knew about it. Once the ISD covered it and everyone were informed the gank-ships started shooting.

Interestingly enough that high-lights another problem talked about in this tread: there is no viable counter to suicide gankers who are willing to lose enough ships or sec-status, this can be very easily fixed in a variety of ways, so basically anyone in high-sec can be blown open by anyone who just desire it hard enough.

[Matoko]

Oh there are some answers without "ruining" Eve.

Example; CONCORD declares the CFC a terrorist organization, and affiliation with them automatically grants criminal status. They get locked out of high-sec, and even low-sec services, are shoot-on-sight to all navies, and blockade posts are set up on the access jumps into CFC controlled null-sec. Now, should CONCORD and the four empires go charging off into Null-sec and start wasting Capsuleers? No, probably not. But good luck getting through High-sec without the local system defense fleet showing up.

I don't see CCP doing that. Much as it would help curb their general "fuck everyone else" attitude and as much as it makes sense in-universe, I don't think that CCP as a corporation cares. If they want something to happen, it'll happen anyway. It'll just get written in as lore. And as cool as the lore is, just reading about events is really dull. Compared to, say, participating in events.

"But Kane..." I hear the reply, "There -are- events players can participate in! Player events! Null-sec stories and arcs! The glorious battle for freedom, resources, ISK and PLEX!"

But not everyone is interested in the null-sec content. Just like in WoW, not everyone is interested in end-game raiding, or the PvP arenas. WoW at least had some diversity, in the PvP/Normal/RP servers; you could kind of pick and choose where your focus was. But Eve wouldn't be able to support that model. Or, possibly it could. It'd be interesting to see how they might handle something like that, just from a theorycrafting standpoint. But I'm getting off-topic.

The point is, the RP community, those interested in the live events, can't beat the Goons. Partially because they have different victory conditions than everyone else. Part is that they have more resources than God. Part is that the line between game and meta-game is very thin (or non-existant). And part of it, as mentioned, is that if someone really wants to kill you badly enough, there isn't a damn thing you can feasibly do to stop them.

And, to reiterate the first solution I mentioned... I'll point out that firing on any actual military vessel will get you declared as an enemy combatant, and probably be viewed as an act of war. Given CFC's behavior in-game...

[Katrina Oniseki]

Goonswarm would cry unholy foul if they were slapped with an automatic criminal tag just by being part of that alliance. I can't say I'd support CCP arbitrarily slapping perma-criminal on an entire alliance anyways.

I would support it if there were certain game mechanics that would end up doing it to your alliance as a result of ingame actions over a period of time though. Simplest and most ham-fisted way would be to create alliance and corporation level security standings. The first based on member corporation's security status, and the second based on individual members. Maybe some sort of mean, median, or average. Or some more complicated formula.

[Matoko]

I'm not doubting they would, and it would be rather ham-handed. On the other hand, given what Goonswarm has done or at least claimed responsibility for... Hulkageddon and Burn Jita come directly to mind. Plus attacks on Minmatar tribal leaders, I'm gathering.

I digress, however. Something like an alliance or corporate security status would work as well, although it wouldn't take prior actions into account. Probably the sanest way to go about it, if a system like that were to be added.

[Katrina Oniseki]

... although it wouldn't take prior actions into account.

It most certainly would if corp sec status was based on that of members, and alliance sec status was based on that of member corps. You already have all the relevant data ingame in each individual member. It's a simple matter to send it up the ladder.

[Myyona]

People appears extremely interested having their characters affect the setting, but very reluctant to have the setting affect their character.

[Katrina Oniseki]

People appears extremely interested having their characters affect the setting, but very reluctant to have the setting affect their character.

Everybody wants to be the Dungeon Master.