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[Vikarion]

Well, this makes me delighted. Thank you for the compliments, Kat, and this was exactly the sort of conversation I hoped my post would inspire.

CCP Falcon has stated that the days of supporting one's faction without flying and fighting for it are over. I referenced this in the "CCP is biased" thread here, and I have to admit, I have some sympathy for the view, especially in the case of the Caldari. Considering the tight-knit nature of the Caldari, and the deep loyalty the faction is said to inspire, how much sense does it make that Caldari capsuleers would sit back and go "huh, Black Rise is burning. Well, I don't like Heth, so that's too bad." I don't personally think that makes a lot of sense. To put it another way, suppose that, in world war two, America's most wealthy citizens decided to take a leave of absence for, say, Switzerland, because they didn't like FDR (some at the time viewed him as a near-dictator). Would we still consider them to have been patriotic? I'm doubtful.

It's also pretty annoying to have RPers running around talking about how much they support the State or the Caldari people, but actually doing nothing about it. To me, RP has meant more than just saying "I support faction x". Even those who hate PvP can do something - and I remember some who hated PvP getting out there and flipping back Minnie systems when the Caldari militia used the standings tactic to grind out system flips. If you truly support a faction, it should matter to your character whether they are winning or not.

And, yes, the faction wars can't be won unless CCP decides the feature is kaput. But they do have storyline consequences, and the fact that they can't be won really has nothing to do with our RP. Sansha can't ever be stopped. Agents will never run out of missions. You can kill those belt rats all you want, they'll always come back. You can't take space permanently. And you're never going to be the sole player in the market. So what?

None of the mechanics can ever be eliminated, because that would eliminate the sandbox. That gives us precisely no reason to do anything, RP-wise, if our criterion is that it cannot be won. So I do not think that that is a reasonable objection. And I do think that disliking faction warfare is sort of, well, a personal problem.    It may well be that if you dislike joining FW, and can't be bothered to do industry for it, then you can't play an Empire loyalist. That's too bad, but at some point, there are walls around what you can do. You can't (I would hope) be an Amarr loyalist running missions against the Empire in Republic space, either.

The best RPers, in my opinion, have always been those who backed up words with actions. That's what I'd like to see, especially given that CCP has indicated that other approaches are essentially dead in the water from here on out. And so my character is going to start calling people on it, as he is.

[Katrina Oniseki]

@ Vikarion

Just so we're clear and we understand each other - you are claiming that those who do not play Faction Warfare are NOT legitimately loyal to the faction? You are claiming that there is no other way to play a loyalist without joining the militia?

[Vikarion]

@ Vikarion

Just so we're clear and we understand each other - you are claiming that those who do not play Faction Warfare are NOT legitimately loyal to the faction? You are claiming that there is no other way to play a loyalist without joining the militia?

I'm saying that if a person/corp/alliance does not participate in FW, nor contributes material to it, then any claims of loyalty to that faction should be viewed with extreme prejudice and suspicion, similar to the way we would view person who claimed loyalty to Sansha but participated in every Incursion they could.

[Katrina Oniseki]

@ Vikarion

Just so we're clear and we understand each other - you are claiming that those who do not play Faction Warfare are NOT legitimately loyal to the faction? You are claiming that there is no other way to play a loyalist without joining the militia?

I'm saying that if a person/corp/alliance does not participate in FW, nor contributes material to it, then any claims of loyalty to that faction should be viewed with extreme prejudice and suspicion, similar to the way we would view person who claimed loyalty to Sansha but participated in every Incursion they could.

If you will allow me to point out the mismatch in examples. In one example, somebody is supportive of the faction, but does not active take part in the conflict. In the other example, somebody is supportive of a faction, but actively and directly fights against it.

CVA does not work against the Amarr Empire, but they are almost unquestionably supportive of it. Yet they are not in the FW scene, as they have business elsewhere. By your logic, you would claim that CVA's loyalty is in question?

I will admit that yes, at this point I am also defending I-RED's loyalty to the Caldari State. I hope what you suggest about CCP's intentions are untrue, because I feel it would be horrible for the roleplay scene to make faction support a black or white issue. If CCP, if CCP Falcon, is forcing people to either be Militia or Dissidents... if he is purposely eliminating shades of grey... I would be sorely disappointed in him. I would be sorely disappointed in CCP.

EDIT: Edited the wording from "works against it" to "fights against it".

[Vikarion]

Alright, I'll be more clear: I don't think that claiming you support a faction has any meaning unless you are actually, well, you know, supporting your faction. And that means doing things that benefit the faction in-universe, via game mechanics. That means FW, and live events, like bringing aid to Rilnais.

Do I think that CVA consider themselves to be Amarr loyalists? Of course they do. Do their actions live up to that? Well, let's see...if the Empire was real, would it get more from someone defending it from the marauding Republic hordes, or from a group of capsuleers profiting off of a Sansha infested zone with no Amarrian citizens in it? And do I think that the State profits off of I-RED running around in Syndicate? Not in the least bit. Do I think that claims of loyalty should be accepted if the claimant is not acting in a way that, by game mechanics, profits their faction? No.

The post by CCP Falcon is here, last two lines:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2452733#post2452733

To quote:
"I'm sorry if it sounds harsh, but you only have yourself to blame when things aren't going your way if you don't actively rally enough people and fight to assist the faction you pledged loyalty to.

The days of supporting a faction with a few forum posts are over. From here on, you're going to be expected to put your guns into action, or flex your industrial might to do so."

[Esna Pitoojee]

I don't think that quote equals an automatic transition to being in faction warfare being the only way to do this.

Esna, for instance, is currently embarking on what amounts to a giant capsuleer social experiment which, if successful, would be vastly beneficial to the Empire.

It involves zero participation in militia. It involves everything about leveraging otherwise neutral capsuleers to aid the Empire.

There is an enormous gap between merely putting some ISK on the line (either in donations or in actual deployed equipment) and participating in a very specific, very limited mechanic the IC results of which are often dubious at best.

[Katrina Oniseki]

And do I think that the State profits off of I-RED running around in Syndicate? Not in the least bit.

Up until the actor that played him (CCP Dropbear, I think) left CCP, it was explicitly stated by Mens Reppola himself that I-RED was indeed partially owned by Ishukone Corporation by majority shares. Everything I-RED does to make a profit, Ishukone gets a significant cut of. Ishukone is part of the State.

CCP even briefly considered literally purchasing real corporation shares in RDC (the executor corp) via ingame mechanics to reflect this and provide proof. They decided not to because that would mean a flood of others would be requesting share purchases, and they weren't willing to do this on a massive scale for everybody looking to validate loyalty.

The post by CCP Falcon is here, last two lines:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2452733#post2452733

To quote:
"I'm sorry if it sounds harsh, but you only have yourself to blame when things aren't going your way if you don't actively rally enough people and fight to assist the faction you pledged loyalty to.

The days of supporting a faction with a few forum posts are over. From here on, you're going to be expected to put your guns into action, or flex your industrial might to do so."

I just got finished talking to Falcon about this very issue, and while I'm not going to copypaste the private mails, he assures me there are plenty of shades of grey to go around, and will be MANY more in the near future. One of us is greatly misinterpreting his intentions, and I'd like to think it's you.

That said, going by what you quoted.... I-RED and CVA are indeed flexing their military and industrial might for the benefit of their factions. That it doesn't serve the faction militia specifically should not exclude them from being considered loyal. Both organizations have, since their inception, been played explicitly with the intent to serve their nations. Neither one of them have joined the faction militia, so I think it's a bit shortsighted to claim they are not loyal because they did not saddle off to a proxy war.

This isn't total war. The entire factions are not completely turned over to the war effort. Even NPC corporations choose to pursue their own interests other than the war efforts. Why is serving the word of God by reclaiming new territory in the name of the Empire not legitimate? Why is serving the interests of a controlling corporation according to their CCP validated orders not legitimate? Why is it 'militia or bust'?

Expecting capsuleers to serve only one aspect of the society, or questioning their loyalty otherwise is a bit silly.

Worth noting that after reading his post, I found two examples of non-militia participation in the Caldari RP scene. Heth's shooting, and the Guristas arc. Both of those serve to make a point that militia is not the only way to serve your faction.

[Jev North]

Also consider the supply donation drive after the Evaulon event, or the freighter escorting work. I expect there'll be more in similar vein, and that that's one of the things Falcon is referring to.

[Pieter Tuulinen]

CAVEAT! :- I'm totally in support of people playing their character and running their corporation the way they see fit, and this is, for me, an INTELLECTUAL discussion. I would never claim IC that I-Red aren't doing their bit for CEO and Mega.

In that spirit, I have to ask whether I-Red have actually transferred a decent percentage of their income to 'State Interests' in some way?

The donations of isk to charitable causes is one way of doing it. Buying material and shipping it to stations where it is needed for RP reasons - like the Evaluon convoy - is another. One can claim that Feddie (and non-Feddie!) players who gave money to people doing such efforts supported the Federation in a real and meaningful way.

If you're running in Null, making buckets of cash, and all that cash is going to plex your pilots or buy shinies, how are you actually contributing to your faction?

[Katrina Oniseki]

CAVEAT! :- I'm totally in support of people playing their character and running their corporation the way they see fit, and this is, for me, an INTELLECTUAL discussion. I would never claim IC that I-Red aren't doing their bit for CEO and Mega.

In that spirit, I have to ask whether I-Red have actually transferred a decent percentage of their income to 'State Interests' in some way?

The donations of isk to charitable causes is one way of doing it. Buying material and shipping it to stations where it is needed for RP reasons - like the Evaluon convoy - is another. One can claim that Feddie (and non-Feddie!) players who gave money to people doing such efforts supported the Federation in a real and meaningful way.

If you're running in Null, making buckets of cash, and all that cash is going to plex your pilots or buy shinies, how are you actually contributing to your faction?

I think we'd be alright with donating some ISK to WHG, since you folks are already blue. We don't produce ships, but we do make other stuff. We can send some of that over, perhaps. John is not the type to be wary of giving ISK to other roleplay groups, but he does sorta wait for an invitation or opportunity to.

Even if John won't, I will on behalf of I-RED

[Pieter Tuulinen]

Oh shit! I wasn't asking for a handout! IC, I'm really not sure that Ishukone would donate to a Wiyrkomi subsidiary!

Gah. Clearly I debatefail.

[Katrina Oniseki]

Oh shit! I wasn't asking for a handout! IC, I'm really not sure that Ishukone would donate to a Wiyrkomi subsidiary!

Gah. Clearly I debatefail.

I know you're not. I'm offering the possibility. If this is a legitimate way to support the war effort, believe me - we have the ISK to spare.

We could sell you stuff at a discount if that makes you feel better?

[orange]

I'm enjoying the fuck out of playing a new character who is pretty hardline about this sort of thing. Wei does not believe that everyone needs to drop everything they're doing right away and join SPROT, but she does think that there's a rather unfortunate trend towards capsuleers running off, doing their own thing, badmouthing the current political order in the State, and still claim they know what it means to be Caldari. This is clearly unacceptable.

And when someone does that IC, I will routinely think "Go fuck yourself.  We were in Black Rise when the rewards were nothing.  We put support behind an attempt to organize the STPRO that almost resulted in civil war. We spent years working to develop Black Rise resources and market competing against Jita imports.   We spent years running pirate gate camps into the little corner of space we lived in and the war barely ever touched us in Black Rise."  Then we reached a point where we could no longer experiment, could no longer grow effectively without being willing to potentially face down the large capsuleer fiefdoms dominating the high-end resources of the area.

The donations of isk to charitable causes is one way of doing it. Buying material and shipping it to stations where it is needed for RP reasons - like the Evaluon convoy - is another. One can claim that Feddie (and non-Feddie!) players who gave money to people doing such efforts supported the Federation in a real and meaningful way.

If you're running in Null, making buckets of cash, and all that cash is going to plex your pilots or buy shinies, how are you actually contributing to your faction?

When LDIS first moved to The District, I harbored illusions of exporting 4TH produced goods to Black Rise to support the war effort.  But two dozen jumps in a Freighter or even a Bustard to compete against Jita is a thankless task - and I mean thankless.  Either 1) the products I deliver require other products to be useful to the denizens of the area who might buy them (Titanium Carbide) and will not sell or 2) I have added 25 jumps to the cost of the T2 modules (or ships) that I have produced and will likely be 1 isked constantly (I had LSE2s in Tash-Murkon for months that I didn't move because I was busy doing industrial operations in Providence).

LDIS for the most part builds its profits on pursuing vertical integration; there is simply a limit to how much of that was/is possible in Black Rise without running into some very very big challenges (like the Goons and Test alt corps mining moons).

I have thought about LDIS buying stock in WHG; which would mean WHG would start having a board of directors... if I had sufficient time to spend on such a role (LDIS's own BoD is largely absent, but when you have limited game time).

Lastly, while we may be getting a decent flow of ISK, on the combat side we do have to defend and protect those assets from others and we aren't talking about cheap ship replacement programs either.  These tend to need a decent amount of ISK on hand.  On the Industrial side, if I want to pursue vertical integration or embark upon projects to do things like produce Nanotransistors from the rock that is Providence, I need to have a lot of ISK on-hand or trapped in market orders to get others to invest in the project.

And how does this support the faction?  Well, it helps LDIS build up the resources and logistics chains needed to meet the goal of exporting 4TH manufactured, cheaper Caldari products back to Black Rise.

[Davlos]

I honestly don't care much for militia shenanigans and FW. I was there when FW first opened up, and was part of that titanic effort which led to exploding every single FDU person who came near any Caldari militia fleet and conquered the entire of Black Rise. During my entire time there, it was an exercise in futility and frustration most of the time as the militia system forces you to be in an alliance with random people you don't know, and there is no way to enforce discipline or some semblance of coherence. That is all impossible unless you are in a participating pvp corp which has a sizable active roster of 70 pilots and above who can run their own corp-centric fleets, and can enforce fleet discipline in a militia fleet that is still filled in the majority by corp members. Those participating pvp corps are really few and far between.

There's no reason for me to want to go back to FW again, and Davlos doesn't think that going back into it is worth his time because, :Heth:. He'll fight for STPRO if I-RED orders him to, but that doesn't mean that he has to like it.

[BloodBird]

@ Vikarion

Just so we're clear and we understand each other - you are claiming that those who do not play Faction Warfare are NOT legitimately loyal to the faction? You are claiming that there is no other way to play a loyalist without joining the militia?

I'm saying that if a person/corp/alliance does not participate in FW, nor contributes material to it, then any claims of loyalty to that faction should be viewed with extreme prejudice and suspicion, similar to the way we would view person who claimed loyalty to Sansha but participated in every Incursion they could.

Kat pointed out the mistake in your example here, but in short; this is your opinion, no more, no less. I can respect it as-is but I don't agree.

My main character had his time in the militia, and in the time after and until now has dealt with his own issues. For all that time however, he's seen to it that the FEDEF is supported, financially, by him. Perhaps not the whole of it, but if he can't be there himself, he sure as well will assist specific agents that he trust with his ISK.

As far as your opinion goes, both my main toon and the agents he support are 'loyal' because they either fight in the militia directly or indirectly assist those who do.

What about that corp of characters who consider themselves loyal to [insert faction] but don't do either? Run by players who don't like to hand out their ISK or PVP in the militia, these guys do pretty much anything else, like research tech to 'improve the state of technology for [x faction]' (even if we all know this is not mechanically possible) or fight pirates in low-sec to 'clean up' their chosen faction's space, or run market games to keep the economy of their faction strong, and so on?

What about I-RED, ILF, CVA or anyone else?

*FAKE EDIT* Now that I'm reading the newer posts below the last question is more-or-less answered. Still think your viewpoint is somewhat unfair though.

On a completely different note, I read your post on the IGS. On an OOC level, nothing I did not expect from the Caldari angle, really, but it was more unexpected from your toon.

I got the impression OOC that Vik was a bit more... what's the word I'm looking for... refined, than doing the old propaganda caller. I mean, most of his claims can be refuted IC as hyperbole, some blatant lies and some more facts twisted around. Have I missed some obvious character development or have I simply not interacted enough with Vik IC to know anything solid about him?