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Author Topic: Are the scriptures on the Evelopedia sufficient ?  (Read 6715 times)

Synthia

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I can construct the Amarr society and slavery from the passages on Evelopedia.

"In the beginning all things were as one. God parted them and breathed life into his creation, Divided the parts and gave each its place, And unto each, bestowed purpose"
A place for everyone and everything. This is a foundation for the feudal society.

"Our Lord visited his flock and saw that all was not good. Blasphemy and heresy ruled the land. The Lord punished the sinners and drowned them in their own blood. But the people of Amarr lived righteously and in fear of God. Thus they were saved and became God's chosen."
Origins of the Chosen as the Faithful.

"As Garrulor rules the skies; as Frisceas rules the sea; As Emperor rules Holder; as Holder rules Serf; Yet all under Heaven serve Me; So shall Amarr rule the worlds of the Heavens."
The feudal society is clearly described. Serfs & slaves are included.

Thus, a faithful, feudal society is created, using just the elements on the Evelopedia.

The Sani Sabik, and their position on slavery is similarly described in the Apocryphon, and other places.
"All are equal in Gods Kingdom", allows for the Sani Sabik rejection of the Emperor and conventional society, and why non-Amarr persons may become Chosen. Different argument for slavery in the Sani Sabik tradition. It's written about Sani Sabik on the Evelopedia, that they believe some are destined for greatness, others only to serve those destined. This can derive from the Place&Purpose from the beginning, or elsewhere.

Thus, I consider the existing scriptures, while thin, sufficient to establish and explain two of the Amarrian societies. And enough to argue about IC.

I do not believe there is any need to bring in RL things.
« Last Edit: 18 Jan 2013, 07:20 by Synthia »
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Horatius Caul

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Re: Are the scriptures on the Evelopedia sufficient ?
« Reply #1 on: 18 Jan 2013, 07:11 »

How is this anything other than re-opening a thread that was just locked and catacombed?

Synthia

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Re: Are the scriptures on the Evelopedia sufficient ?
« Reply #2 on: 18 Jan 2013, 07:19 »

How is this anything other than re-opening a thread that was just locked and catacombed?

It was argued the things on the Evelopedia were insufficient.

I would like to know in what way they are so insufficient.
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Saede Riordan

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Re: Are the scriptures on the Evelopedia sufficient ?
« Reply #3 on: 18 Jan 2013, 07:30 »

I'd say, no, there's not a need to bring in real life, but yes, there's a need for more material.

There's only so long you can go back and forth about the same 6 passages of scripture before It gets stale, and before the conversation runs into a place those 6 lines can't deal with.

There's supposed to be 1000s of books of scripture. Just do what the minmatar did with voluvals and clans and such and make things up. If people like it, those things will get used, if not, they'll be set aside.
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Seriphyn

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Re: Are the scriptures on the Evelopedia sufficient ?
« Reply #4 on: 18 Jan 2013, 07:31 »

There's supposed to be 1000s of books of scripture. Just do what the minmatar did with voluvals and clans and such and make things up. If people like it, those things will get used, if not, they'll be set aside.

A good tactic IMO.
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Synthia

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Re: Are the scriptures on the Evelopedia sufficient ?
« Reply #5 on: 18 Jan 2013, 07:33 »

There's only so long you can go back and forth about the same 6 passages of scripture before it gets stale, and before the conversation runs into a place those 6 lines can't deal with.

A lot more than 6.

And what is this place that "can't be dealt with" ?
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Saede Riordan

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Re: Are the scriptures on the Evelopedia sufficient ?
« Reply #6 on: 18 Jan 2013, 07:38 »

There's only so long you can go back and forth about the same 6 passages of scripture before it gets stale, and before the conversation runs into a place those 6 lines can't deal with.

A lot more than 6.

And what is this place that "can't be dealt with" ?

Questions of Amarr societal structure, the place of women, ethics, morals, homosexuality, interpretational differences, law, punishment, the afterlife, behavioural standards, philosophy, there are whole reams things the canon just does not cover.
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Lyn Farel

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Re: Are the scriptures on the Evelopedia sufficient ?
« Reply #7 on: 18 Jan 2013, 07:40 »

I'd say, no, there's not a need to bring in real life, but yes, there's a need for more material.

There's only so long you can go back and forth about the same 6 passages of scripture before It gets stale, and before the conversation runs into a place those 6 lines can't deal with.

There's supposed to be 1000s of books of scripture. Just do what the minmatar did with voluvals and clans and such and make things up. If people like it, those things will get used, if not, they'll be set aside.

It's a little different than the Voluval imho. There is quite a difference between merely creating a voluval symbol and inventing sensible scripture texts supposed to rule the daily lives of faithful amarrians. Unless you start to create a Voluval symbol supposed to be "better" or "equal" to the Ray of Matar of whatever. It only works when you create something pretty common and insignificant. I don't think there would have been such a mess if it was about a cuisine book coming from the scriptures...

Eventually I think that it is again a question of the limits of world building. The more the things you invent and create start to stomp upon someone else's RP, the more probability for drama to occur.

And of course, IRL direct references are yet another story.

However I think what Synthia says (and I agree with) is that there is plenty enough materials to flesh out the Amarr spirit, but what you say (and I agree with too) is that there is not a lot of raw scripture passages to discuss. Both of you are just speaking of 2 different things.
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Lyn Farel

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Re: Are the scriptures on the Evelopedia sufficient ?
« Reply #8 on: 18 Jan 2013, 07:40 »

There's only so long you can go back and forth about the same 6 passages of scripture before it gets stale, and before the conversation runs into a place those 6 lines can't deal with.

A lot more than 6.

And what is this place that "can't be dealt with" ?

Questions of Amarr societal structure, the place of women, ethics, morals, homosexuality, interpretational differences, law, punishment, the afterlife, behavioural standards, philosophy, there are whole reams things the canon just does not cover.

The same for all factions then ?
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lallara zhuul

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Re: Are the scriptures on the Evelopedia sufficient ?
« Reply #9 on: 18 Jan 2013, 07:41 »

The canon pretty much covers all that Saede has referred to.

In some depth as well.
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Synthia

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Re: Are the scriptures on the Evelopedia sufficient ?
« Reply #10 on: 18 Jan 2013, 07:45 »

The canon pretty much covers all that Saede has referred to.

In some depth as well.

Exactly. Much has been added recently too.

Furthermore, Why would a True Amarr wish to discuss such things with outsiders ?
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Morwen Lagann

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Re: Are the scriptures on the Evelopedia sufficient ?
« Reply #11 on: 18 Jan 2013, 07:49 »

There's supposed to be 1000s of books of scripture. Just do what the minmatar did with voluvals and clans and such and make things up. If people like it, those things will get used, if not, they'll be set aside.

"Making things up" is what caused the mess in the first place, because people were "making things up" by using RL religion as their source. So that sounds like a pretty terrible idea to me.

Even without that mess, there's another factor I think you're overlooking: just because it works for the Minmatar does not mean it will work for other cultures in EVE. The Minmatar, by their very nature and what we've been given by CCP, are a good candidate for the "throw shit at the wall and see what sticks" method. The Amarr, however, are not. In an Empire where the easiest measure of who holds more power than whom is where they are in the family tree, where there is a single state religion with no legal alternative options, and a fairly rigid caste structure, throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks is not an appropriate tactic.

This is a case where if there are holes, CCP needs to be the ones to put up netting or fill them in outright, because the last thing the Amarr need is for their religion to be even more like modern Christianity with thousands of different interpretations that nobody agrees on. In the Empire, only the TC-approved interpretations of Scripture are valid. Making shit up with this case, in my opinion, does amount to godmoding - because if you claim something is a valid, TC-approved interpretation or piece of Scripture, you are basically claiming that anyone who disagrees with you is in violation of Amarrian law. And that'll go fun places real fucking fast.

When you're talking about your own sect or offshoot that doesn't affect anyone except those who opt into it, fine. Make up all the shit you want.

But don't try and do that with the largest religion in the cluster. That's a lot of people - NPCs included - for whom we do not have the right to dictate their actions or beliefs.
« Last Edit: 18 Jan 2013, 07:51 by Morwen Lagann »
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Lyn Farel

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Re: Are the scriptures on the Evelopedia sufficient ?
« Reply #12 on: 18 Jan 2013, 08:07 »


Furthermore, Why would a True Amarr wish to discuss such things with outsiders ?

Why are they doing it then ?

I am afraid that this is another matter entirely. Not sure if I want to tell Amarr RPers that they are doing it wrong by doing so.
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BloodBird

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Re: Are the scriptures on the Evelopedia sufficient ?
« Reply #13 on: 18 Jan 2013, 08:53 »

There's supposed to be 1000s of books of scripture. Just do what the minmatar did with voluvals and clans and such and make things up. If people like it, those things will get used, if not, they'll be set aside.

"Making things up" is what caused the mess in the first place, because people were "making things up" by using RL religion as their source. So that sounds like a pretty terrible idea to me.

Even without that mess, there's another factor I think you're overlooking: just because it works for the Minmatar does not mean it will work for other cultures in EVE. The Minmatar, by their very nature and what we've been given by CCP, are a good candidate for the "throw shit at the wall and see what sticks" method. The Amarr, however, are not. In an Empire where the easiest measure of who holds more power than whom is where they are in the family tree, where there is a single state religion with no legal alternative options, and a fairly rigid caste structure, throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks is not an appropriate tactic.

This is a case where if there are holes, CCP needs to be the ones to put up netting or fill them in outright, because the last thing the Amarr need is for their religion to be even more like modern Christianity with thousands of different interpretations that nobody agrees on. In the Empire, only the TC-approved interpretations of Scripture are valid. Making shit up with this case, in my opinion, does amount to godmoding - because if you claim something is a valid, TC-approved interpretation or piece of Scripture, you are basically claiming that anyone who disagrees with you is in violation of Amarrian law. And that'll go fun places real fucking fast.

When you're talking about your own sect or offshoot that doesn't affect anyone except those who opt into it, fine. Make up all the shit you want.

But don't try and do that with the largest religion in the cluster. That's a lot of people - NPCs included - for whom we do not have the right to dictate their actions or beliefs.

This.

TL;DR - Basically making stuff up is a legit means of creating content and RP, but you need to consider the situation and context of your creation otherwise you can easily fall into god-modder territory, and that is nasty crap we don't really want anywhere.

Basically, making stuff up is only valid in a number of situations. I'll make another example of something that is not a valid candidate for making stuff up about;

The official means the Federation employs to solve situations not covered by any PF so far. Anyone can claim what's standard modus operandi in some Federation member nation on some planet somewhere, because the odds that CCP will ever make something that directly contradicts this are fairly slim.

But no-one can come and claim out of thin air that THIS IS HOW IT WORKS AND EVERYONE KNOWS IT OR CAN LEARN ABOUT IT because there is no way of knowing for sure, because it's not in any official PF, and thus, your making shit up that should be known to billions of NPC's and hundreds or thousands of players that no-one else knows, and your basically telling all those players what they are supposed to know.

Telling Synthia that you have viable arguments regarding pieces of Imperial Scripture that you yourself recently pulled out of your ass is not only unfair and god-modding, it's very, very rude. There is no way to counter this except to play along IC on a significantly weakened standpoint (because your character now suddenly know stuff that no-one else did and acts on it) or or to argue that your claims are false to begin with, and that goes down the road of 'you!/no you!' level of argument. It's not RP at that point, it's two players arguing in an IC format about stuff you have made up on the go. Stuff that supposedly everyone else knew of from before, or could easily go find out if they wanted.

The huge problem here, I think, is partially a lack of... meat, on things like the scriptures. There are supposedly thousands of books in this fictional collection of holy works, as mentioned. But we can never expect CCP to write it all down for our enjoyment, much like we can't sit and wait for them to flesh out all the ins nd outs of every Federal, let alone Imperial, world. It can't be done.

But we can limit ourselves to taking only the known, PF revealed Scripture into context when we RP. We have to, because making up anything in what's supposedly a well-known and easily accessible codex of life, the universe and everything to trillions of humans is, sadly, going to spark this kind of nasty situation.

Making stuff up on your own is perfectly legit, but one has to consider the context and the situation at hand. Needless to say, balancing this freedom of creativity with the desire to avoid god-modding is not simple at all.

*EDIT* I forgot, I was going to add this...

It would be in our better interest to ask CCP's people who are responsible for this to kindly see if they can flesh things out a bit more. Using the Scriptures as an example, there is WAY to little of it in regards to what's supposedly there. The Scriptures supposedly cover every possible aspect of the Imperial way of life. The desired means of dress, grooming, eating habits, transportation means, warfare, trade, worship, child raising, proper maintenance rituals for pretty much anything can can imagine and so much more.

Only in regards to the Amarrian Empire there are so many major and minor things that we don't know about. Freedom of creativity is great, but many basic questions remains unanswered. Then there are all the OTHER factions... In short, I feel like we should have a 50/50 kind of situation in regards to what kind of major info about... anything... is filled out, and what we have to make up ourselves. Currently it seems we barely have 10/90 in favor of the unknown. That's pretty thin.

How are they going to do this? I don't know, but CCP's folks might. Perhaps they can look over and approve more of the good player-input, like Kat's "Greatest Fan" story. That was a great piece, as well as very universe-friendly. I don't think it would hurt to make CCP's basic ideas behind the various factions known to the players and have the willing and talented among them help them out by fleshing out some more stuff. Obviously, CCP would have final say about what get to be canon in the IP-protected fictional universe they created, but I for one would not mind at all getting PF fleshed out a tad more.

Also, note: This is supposed to be productive input and not offensive or aggressive in any way, other than getting my point across. If it's borderline violation of any rules, let me know and I'll edit it.
« Last Edit: 18 Jan 2013, 09:04 by BloodBird »
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Saede Riordan

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Re: Are the scriptures on the Evelopedia sufficient ?
« Reply #14 on: 18 Jan 2013, 09:51 »

Bloodbird and Morwen make good points and I see wherein issues could lie with forcing things onto other players.

On the one hand, players have already been doing this. Look at Napaani for instance. It is entirely player made and yet is basically accepted as canon. No one disputes the existence of Napaani as a language. If something is made out of character (here or on the EVE fiction forums or in player made pages on Evelopedia) is it more acceptable then if it was just riffed up on the spot? (in my mind yes, because it gives people a chance to give their OOC yay or nay on things before it hits the RP) For another example, take Splinterz, the robotic sports combat game Stitcher made up. Its supposed to be very popular in the state, and its something an average state loyalist might be expected to know. Of course this is a bit different then something as important to the canon as scripture.

On the other hand, if we don't allow player made content within the scripture, then how do we RP in the long run with what we have? Material on the ground just seems very scarce. People make the arguments, 'why isn't it good enough?' maybe its just me but this should be fairly obvious. I have to give the Amarr guys who have been doing it for 10 years credit. I definitely couldn't play a religious character while knowing so little OOCly about her beliefs and cultural norms. But its still asking for trouble and it might be good for the Amarr RP community if the stance on things was more firm. If CCP doesn't elucidate upon something, do you just not go there at all within the RP? Maybe it would be viable if some of the old guard Amarr RPers put together a 'player made theology council' to decide things the canon doesn't cover, just so that the working foundations for the RP are expanded?

On the Gripping hand, none of this would be an issue if CCP clarified things and expanded upon the available material. I've tried and boil it down to a few questions, these should probably be posed to Falcon when someone gets a chance:

*How open to interpretation is the Scripture? Does the theology council rule on absolutely everything across every aspect of Amarr society or are there places where people are entitled to their own opinions, within which player-made material could be inserted? If so, what are those places?

*For the areas that the rule of the theology council is absolute, what exactly is the position of the council? There are many things that we simply do not know their rulings on, and thus, unless we make it up, are forced to just not go there at all within the context of the RP.

*How wide of a claim can be made before its considered Godmodding? There doesn't seem to be any sort of objective measure of this.
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