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[JinOtsi]

Snips

And this. Frankly, ban Stitcher from the IGS and this forum too. He keeps awesomeing all over them and it makes my keyboard sticky.

Tiberious: No, it doesn't. You may feel that way, but unless you have an actual argument against it, it's just facts carrying over. RPing an atheist means using atheist sources. tl;dr: Get over it.

[Saede Riordan]

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Scriptures

Linking again. Use that to build IC atheist arguments. Example...

"In the beginning all things were as one.
God parted them and breathed life into his creation
Divided the parts and gave each its place
And unto each, bestowed purpose"
- The Scriptures, Book I 1:4

"Hey! God didn't give me any purpose! I define my own purpose, and no one has any place!"

As Garrulor rules the skies; as Frisceas rules the sea;
As Emperor rules Holder; as Holder rules Serf;
Yet all under Heaven serve Me;
So shall Amarr rule the worlds of the Heavens.
- The Scriptures, Book of Reclaiming 3.19 - 3.21

"Nobody serves anyone!"

There will be neither compassion nor mercy;
Nor peace, nor solace
For those who bear witness to these Signs
And still do not believe."
- The Scriptures, Book of Reclaiming 25:10

"Your God is a warmongerer!"

It's not difficult.

Again, this game is 10 years old, a lot of that sort of low hanging fruit has been used so much that its gone stale and moldy. You can't have 10 years worth of arguments off what...6 passages of scripture?

We should just beg Falcon to write up some sort of thing on 'this is what the Amarr actually believe, this is what their scripture actually says' because it seems really vague to me.

Well... as was in the OP. "Minmatar Tribalism is full of atrocities on a larger scale than Rwanda. Sebiestor tribespeople set upon Brutor women and children with all manner of weapons, the slaughter was unprecedented.
The Amarr witnessed these tribal massacres and realised that only through invasion could these terrible crimes against humanity be ended."
You want people to make things like that up ? You really want to incorporate that into your RP ?

No, but as I said in my big long post on the first page, that sort of stuff only gets made up when someone is trying to view RP as confrontational rather then collaborative. I'm a big fan of RPing with people instead of RPing against them, as heated as the discussion with Nicoletta is, I have no problem with her OOC and if she came to me OOC and wanted to discuss the RP in that bring it to some sort of close for one reason or another I'd go along with it, because I RP to have fun, and its not fun to constantly be stepping on each others toes.

What I'm saying is this:

We as the players need to decide what can be considered canon and what cannot, when CCP doesn't give us much material to work with. Maybe the Amarr RPers should, dare I say it, make up scripture? The Minmatar have been doing this for ages with voluvals and clan politics and traditions, and our RP has still largely settled out into areas where we all agree. Internal disputes over the validity of XYZ thing are fun. We can't expect the game company to hold our hand and give us everything, they have limited resources, even compared to us honestly. Its up to us to be mature, and reasonable, and pick up the slack where they can't, and flesh out the universe from there. As an outsider looking in, I think a big problem with Amarrian RP has been an unwillingness to step outside of the core canon. Yes you can say 'but then people will make up things that just support their positions' but there needs to be some sort of baseline to work with, even if its "laced with dirty Amarrian propaganda"

[Synthia]

Are they? I've seen some interesting pamphlets. I've also seen all kinds of interpretations of texts used without the text having been sourced anywhere in PF. As for "me", I have yet to drag anything real life into Eve, but I still think it's a far superior method to everyone just getting to invent whatever they want.

As for crippling yourself by only referring to the tiny snippets in PF, that's just not doable in the RP referenced in the OP.

PIE Inc. has a very successfull and well known history or "crippling" ourselves with the "tiny snippets", thank you for disregarding the oldest still active corp in EVE, who is also the oldest RP corp... 

The tiny snippets, four of them, are the entire source for CTCS's theology.

I disagree that they are insufficient to construct the Amarr society, and Amarrian-derived societies.

[Laerise [PIE]]

The nature of the Scriptures was described as:
"we have the collected ramblings of people who mistook schizophrenia for demonic possession, felt that a powerful body odour was the best means to ward off the tormenting spectre of disease,"
This was challenged, and sources for these were asked for.

We do not feel that this was an unreasonable request, because while those attitudes were present in the beliefs of prehistoric jews and medieval christians, they're not something that's in Amarr religion.

Why not?  The first settlers on Athra were canonically a cult of Catholic extremists, I consider that all the justification I need for ripping a few bits from the Bible and changing them enough to represent ten thousand years of translation, mutation and revision.

In any case, there have already been examples of people making up some of what's in the Scriptures. They define which specific bits of the Empire's scientific understanding are included in it, they talk about Saint So-and-So or claim that Scripture justifies or underpins their character's behaviour, even when none of the few scraps of Scripture we actually have mention anything of the sort.

Is that godmoding too? Because If they get to do that, so do I. I didn't claim that the bits other people have made up don't exist or aren't based in PF, so please don't do it to me.

All I've done is fold some of the wackier and less savoury parts of existing Abrahamic religions - on which Amarr is not just thematically based but historically derived according to the PF - into the argument.

You don't get to have a religion that's all nobility and niceness, not when that religion clearly and unapologetically endorses slavery. I'm sorry if you consider it godmoding when I rub a little dirt on, but given that nobody calls it that when I invent the names of Splinterz teams, or non-DUST infantry gear, or the names of cities on unimportant planets, or conduct an (inconclusive) experiment based on a theory I have about how Sansha's mind control nanites work, or hell, if I invent NPCs that my character is supposed to have talked to....

Why is it suddenly Godmoding when I describe some of the themes that I consider it perfectly realistic would appear in the Amarr Scriptures? I didn't invent quotes, I invented ways in which said quotes could be interpreted. I didn't provide imaginary chapter and verse when challenged, I said "go read your own damn holy book". I've bent over backwards to do anything more than detail-building.

The Amarr were a primitive people, once. They're still, in many important regards, a primitive people today. They're a theocracy that practices slavery for goodness' sake, what's clear about them from that is that they're not going to excise stuff from the scriptures for good, thinking, modern moral reasons, but rather because it interferes with the Theocracy's grip of power.

That means that wherever something in the Scriptures looks and reads a lot like Leviticus is very probably still there, and most people just sort of gloss over that it exists. It's not detrimental to the faith therefore the Theology Council never edited it out, and it sticks around like clutter in a busy house that nobody has the time to deal with.

I don't agree that I've been godmoding. I'm sorry if you feel that I have been and if it continues to upset people I'll have Verin quit the conversation entirely out of frustration, how's that sound?

Catholic means unified Stitcher and does not neccessarily have to be a synonym for "the roman catholic church"... It'd be nice if you could do at least some basic fact checking before you drop into the same old and boring routine most self declared "atheists" seem to work in.

[Laerise [PIE]]

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Scriptures

Linking again. Use that to build IC atheist arguments. Example...

"In the beginning all things were as one.
God parted them and breathed life into his creation
Divided the parts and gave each its place
And unto each, bestowed purpose"
- The Scriptures, Book I 1:4

"Hey! God didn't give me any purpose! I define my own purpose, and no one has any place!"

As Garrulor rules the skies; as Frisceas rules the sea;
As Emperor rules Holder; as Holder rules Serf;
Yet all under Heaven serve Me;
So shall Amarr rule the worlds of the Heavens.
- The Scriptures, Book of Reclaiming 3.19 - 3.21

"Nobody serves anyone!"

There will be neither compassion nor mercy;
Nor peace, nor solace
For those who bear witness to these Signs
And still do not believe."
- The Scriptures, Book of Reclaiming 25:10

"Your God is a warmongerer!"

It's not difficult.

Again, this game is 10 years old, a lot of that sort of low hanging fruit has been used so much that its gone stale and moldy. You can't have 10 years worth of arguments off what...6 passages of scripture?

We should just beg Falcon to write up some sort of thing on 'this is what the Amarr actually believe, this is what their scripture actually says' because it seems really vague to me.

Well... as was in the OP. "Minmatar Tribalism is full of atrocities on a larger scale than Rwanda. Sebiestor tribespeople set upon Brutor women and children with all manner of weapons, the slaughter was unprecedented.
The Amarr witnessed these tribal massacres and realised that only through invasion could these terrible crimes against humanity be ended."
You want people to make things like that up ? You really want to incorporate that into your RP ?

No, but as I said in my big long post on the first page, that sort of stuff only gets made up when someone is trying to view RP as confrontational rather then collaborative. I'm a big fan of RPing with people instead of RPing against them, as heated as the discussion with Nicoletta is, I have no problem with her OOC and if she came to me OOC and wanted to discuss the RP in that bring it to some sort of close for one reason or another I'd go along with it, because I RP to have fun, and its not fun to constantly be stepping on each others toes.

What I'm saying is this:

We as the players need to decide what can be considered canon and what cannot, when CCP doesn't give us much material to work with. Maybe the Amarr RPers should, dare I say it, make up scripture? The Minmatar have been doing this for ages with voluvals and clan politics and traditions, and our RP has still largely settled out into areas where we all agree. Internal disputes over the validity of XYZ thing are fun. We can't expect the game company to hold our hand and give us everything, they have limited resources, even compared to us honestly. Its up to us to be mature, and reasonable, and pick up the slack where they can't, and flesh out the universe from there. As an outsider looking in, I think a big problem with Amarrian RP has been an unwillingness to step outside of the core canon. Yes you can say 'but then people will make up things that just support their positions' but there needs to be some sort of baseline to work with, even if its "laced with dirty Amarrian propaganda"

If you have such a problem with the "lacking" ammount of scriptures, why don't you contact the CCP volunteers corps and try to improve the situation?  I'm sure they'd be delighted if you provided them with some authentic sounding and well researched scripture pieces.

Fake Edit: That would require you to do some theological research though, not just rebrand bible passages. 

[Laerise [PIE]]

edit: lol, missread that  anyways, off for some champagne. it's finally snowing enough to fill the cooler again 

[Stitcher]

I made this point in my last comment, but it bears repeating all by itself here:

Scientific accomplishment is not the same thing as moral enlightenment

The Amarr are technologically advanced, sure. They beat the rest of the human race back into space, fine. They're still a slavery-based Theocracy with elements of feudalism. It's entirely possible to be a backwards medieval barbarian with a laser rifle.

[Seriphyn]

Except the Minmatar are still tribalistic (Even if the tribes are nothing like Earth tribes), and the Caldari base their domestic and foreign policies off of ancient Raata stuff.

They're all backwards.

[Stitcher]

yep. That's the setting.

Hell, the Gallente are guilty of it too - their culture pretty explicitly panders to people's pleasure-seeking, impulsive sides rather than appealing to their intellectuality.

[Laerise [PIE]]

Edit: Seriphyn, stop making me agree so much with you. 

[Laerise [PIE]]

yep. That's the setting.

So, whats your argument again?  I mean, apart from "religion is evil" obviously 

[Stitcher]

yep. That's the setting.

So, whats your argument again?  I mean, apart from "religion is evil" obviously 

My argument is that if they're all backwards morons who've got a lot of growing up to do, then describing the Amarr as being backwards morons who've got a lot of growing up to do is perfectly valid.

also, could I ask you to please adjust your attitude? You're being highly unpleasant, smug and condescending and I don't want to have to deal with it.

[JinOtsi]

yep. That's the setting.

So, whats your argument again?  I mean, apart from "religion is evil" obviously 

Need more straw?

[Tiberious Thessalonia]

Also, no one is asking you to accept that the Amarr are sparkly fun time religionists, because they aren't.  No one is asking you to accept them IC as good people, because they aren't in the vast majority of cases, according to our western standards.

I just don't think that using IRL texts in arguments with Amarrians is fair, tbh.  They're the ones who are RPing the religion, let them define the terms of the engagement, since they're the ones invested in it, and meanwhile you can just keep your arguments more general.  I think thats reasonable, unless you want me suddenly defining how Wayism works, or something, or telling the Minmatar what form their animism takes.

[Saede Riordan]

Except the Minmatar are still tribalistic (Even if the tribes are nothing like Earth tribes), and the Caldari base their domestic and foreign policies off of ancient Raata stuff.

They're all backwards.

I don't think anyone is saying that their factions don't have equally as much baggage. But I don't at all think that invalidates the argument. I also don't think morals and traditions need be entirely subjective in how 'good' they are. The Amarrians practise slavery, I don't think anyone disputes that this is a Bad Thing OOC. You seem to have this idea of 'oh they're just different, its all subjective' well I'll just respond with this:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=30f_1251830995

Some things are just objectively better then others from an outside standpoint.