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[Synthia]

It would appear, that RPing with the Amarr religion is futile, unless you are an opponent of it.

Over the past few days, some threads have appeared on IGS, and posts in other threads, attacking the existence of the Amarr god, and the Amarrian religions in general.

A thread in which Synthia was examining the truth of the Scriptures, through experimentation, has largely been derailed by 3 full pages of atheism arguments. This is in addition to 10 or so pages of the same arguments on a few other threads.

What makes Synthia's thread significant, is the behaviour of some of the people in it. It extends to godmoding, and is a big disappointment.

The nature of the Scriptures was described as:
"we have the collected ramblings of people who mistook schizophrenia for demonic possession, felt that a powerful body odour was the best means to ward off the tormenting spectre of disease,"
This was challenged, and sources for these were asked for.

We do not feel that this was an unreasonable request, because while those attitudes were present in the beliefs of prehistoric jews and medieval christians, they're not something that's in Amarr religion.

We were confronted with:
"They're YOUR scriptures! What, haven't you ever read them? Start from the beginning and learn all about the charming manner in which, if the early Athrans still had their way, your face would be a magnet for fist-sized rocks as is deemed the appropriate punishment for the heinous crime of being repeatedly female in a public place."
Again, these are things that the prehistoric jews and medieval christians believed, no evidence exists for those being Amarr beliefs.

This was again challenged with:
"Oh, is this how it is? This the game you want to play?
Make things up, then accuse the other person of not having read them?"

The response was:
"I am not inventing anything here. It's all there.
The overwhelming majority of it is given over to trivialities about how your hair and beard should be trimmed, which animals are "unclean", how to prepare the few that are deemed sufficiently not-unclean to eat after careful ritual purification, about how no man with a scar or deformity should be permitted to set foot on sacred ground as his deformity is a sign of god's displeasure, how the lord abhors mixed fabrics, forbids women from "usurping the divine authority of the Male", describes anybody who prefers the romantic company of their own gender as being "destined for the eternal fire", that sort of thing.
Read it. Go on. I'll GLADLY wait for you to do so. I'd list chapter and verse."

Again, more prehistoric jews and christian beliefs. Not Amarr things.
We consider this godmoding. Dictating the content of the scriptures, to suit a particular argument, then accusing opponents of not having read the scriptures.

This was again challenged, and the response:
"Typical. Challenge a religious person to read their own holy book and they say "no". Sounds about right, to be perfectly honest. Most do treat their own literature as being a lot like a legal agreement - they don't read it, they just scroll to the bottom and click "I accept"."

So, in the face of what appears to us to be godmoding, when the Amarr religion is equated with early Jewish and Christian beliefs, then we consider that there is no point to doing anything RP involving the Amarr religion.

The Explanatory Leaflet, which outlines the theology of CTCS, was an attempt to construct something of the Sani Sabik beyond "LOL BLOOD!". It allows us to defend our religious beliefs against Amarr persons, and others.

What it does not do, is defend the beliefs of early Jews and Christians, because it should not have to, because they do not have anything to do with Amarr religion.

But, when the beliefs of early Jews and Christians are brought up, as an argument against Amarr religions, and people insist on godmoding them into the Amarr scripture, then... we're not really interested anymore in RPing with people who do that.

We feel that expecting Amarrian religion RPer's to defend beliefs of early Jews and Christians to be similar to asking people to:
Defend the Gallente Federation's record of human rights when the USA interned Japanese-American citizens during the second world war. Just like the Federation did against the Caldari.
Defend Sansha's Nation, in the context of Doctor Praetorius and Doctor Frankenstein's beliefs about reanimation of dead flesh.
Defend Minmatar tribalism, in the context of the atrocities in Rwanda and Burundi.

Is this the game people want to play ?

[Tiberious Thessalonia]

I am pretty much going to have to hop in this boat here.   I'm a pretty ardent atheist IRL, not that it matters in the game.  I've been watching this thread go on with a growing sense of horror because it really does appear like a real life atheist v. theist debate has erupted, with the atheist side attempting to use real life religious books against the followers of a fake religion in an RP game who are trying to stick with what little of the scripture is known in game.

Having played a theist in this game, I can tell you that is very hard to deal with, and frustrating on an OOC level because you're trying to stick to things that exist in game, whereas your opponents are perfectly happy to use existing IRL texts to undermine you.

And the worst thing is, is that it goes on, and on, and on.

Now, I'm not saying 'Leave the Theists alone!', because its a valid point of view to say that you believe that a religion is harmful, I just wish that people would stick to things that exist in game when providing examples as to why its bad.  Argue based on the merits being presented, because I think I wouldn't be out of line, even as an atheist, to say that I don't think the IRL Christians want you using the Amarr religion as a scapegoat and strawman for your IRL grudge against their religion.

Edit:  To my thinking, there are good arguments that can be made.   Anything which argues against the existance of a god or gods in general is probably fair game.  Things which argue against the existence of the Christian/Jewish/Muslim god or the Hindu pantheon or anything requiring specific recourse to existing religious texts is probably not fair game.   One I hear all the time is "The Amarr god cannot exist because the world is clearly not governed by an all merciful creator", IE the problem of evil.  The Amarr, in game, have solved this by not believing in an all-merciful god.

Again, I say this mainly because I think certain people on the non-deist side of the IC argument are bringing up OOC arguements.  Its hard to avoid sometimes, but you do have to be careful of it.

[Gesakaarin]

I've noticed much the same thing, and it really does seem like it's an attack on the Amarr faith completely removed from the fictional elements of that faith and honestly, it just looks like people bringing their RL anti-theist sentiments into the world of internet spaceships from where I'm standing reading the threads in question.

That said, this has happened before and will probably happen again and again.

[JinOtsi]

I can see the point, but I can't quite agree. These Scriptures are supposedly quite publicly available and the entire debate is completely impossible to have unless you RP it as such. This means that the meager amount of scripture available to us just won't do and world-building has to be done. This means either pulling in real life examples or just inventing something entirely. The first one is rather balanced as it gives everyone a level playing field. The other completely skews things since everyone will just invent something that backs their own side and which will almost certainly go against how others want to view it.

I don't think Stitcher is a member of this forum, so attacking his posts alone is poor form, by the way.

To me, the only reasonable path is to take examples from real life scriptures and use them. Chapter and Verse is a bit overzealous, but grabbing something suitably religious from a text should be encouraged really. It's a far more fair and realistic way of doing it than inventing some cuddly Sani Sabik text with no basis in neither the game nor real life, or some Amarish text with no basis in neither real life nor game.

A level playing field is best for everyone involved. If you find that unacceptable, I think that speaks more of exactly how backwards and derp those texts are than of the RP itself.

ETA three words in a sentence derp.

[Saede Riordan]

Hi, as one of the angry atheists in those threads, I'd like to weigh in a bit.

First off, I don't think there's anything wrong with having the atheism argument in religious threads on the IGS. The IGS is public, there's nothing saying we can't argue it out. When you post something, you accept that anyone could say pretty much anything they wanted in response to you, and that includes the 'your god isn't real' response. It comes with the territory of posting to the IGS, people will say things in your posts you don't like.

Also, in before people claim this is people's OOC views on religion bleeding IC, I'm not an atheist IRL. (doh, ninja'd, too late)

Now then, on one hand, I agree with you, and I poked Stitcher about the posts you're referring to in a PM. I can see why what he did would be irritating to Amarr RPers who play eve to RP as Amarrians not as Christians.

On the other hand, there's a certain point where if someone does make that claim, I the player have to ask: Okay, is that actually a reasonable claim to make, based on the PF we have so far, and is my RP better enriched by letting it slide?

Understanding the the EVE universe is far from fully fleshed out, there is no concrete history of everything, there is no actual Amarr scripture beyond a few lines, there's flatly, a lot of things about the universe we just do not know. Is it fair to fill in those blanks or is our RP restricted to what we know absolutely to be PF? In my mind, as long as its something that could reasonably be conceived to be a part of the world, I'd try to run with it, because I'd rather just go with things as are, and riff off other people's ideas back and forth, then to just say 'nope' and shut them down. This game is 10 years old, the low hanging canon fruit has been pretty much stripped clean.

I'm going to try to avoid straying into urdoinitrong here, but I'm not sure how within bounds this will be, so if the mods need to slap something out of this post, the below section is probably going to be it:

It seems to me like there's a lot of people (myself included sometimes I will be honest, though I'm working on it) who try their hardest to actually 'win' at roleplaying. When you go into RPing with the same attitude you do other things in eve, any time someone pulls up something they made up; some piece of non-prime canon they created; if it steps on your RP toes, its in your best interest to deny it. To say 'this couldn't happen' or 'nope' and just block their actions. Personally, I don't think this is a good idea. Unless what someone says is obviously violating the PF, I tend to find I am better served by just taking what they said and running with it.

Roleplaying at the end of the day isn't competitive, its collaborative. Its improvisational. It can't really be anything else either, so any actions that lead to blocking in my mind, unless done for very specific reasons, are probably best avoided.

Now, I find what Stitcher did in the thread to be a pretty huge overstepping, if I want to argue with Christians about religion, I'm perfectly willing to go do it IRL.

But by the same token, in order to argue for or against a position, there needs to be data. We just flat out don't know that much about the Amarr religion, and so how can we possibly argue against the tenants of it without resorting back to the atheism argument again and again and driving the discussion in circles. I do see what Stitcher was doing as trying to win the argument OOC, and I do understand the irritation that would produce was the same card played against me.

Of course, I think there's a bit of a deeper issue at heart here, which is largely related to RPer attitudes. Synthia, you'd already made up the Righteous Dress, and the Book of Demeanour, which is what Stitcher was referencing. Do only you get to decide what's in that piece of scripture? Do only Amarr bloc roleplayers get to make stuff up about their material? I don't think that should be the case. However, I also see where one could get into very hot water if they go in with the attitude of trying to win instead of trying to collaborate. In a collaborative scenario, you want other people to make up stuff so you can run with it, and they want you to make up stuff so they can run with it. However, if the attitude is one of competition and of trying to 'win' the RP, then they can start to claim all sorts of crazy universe bending things in an attempt to drive the discussion where they want to go, and every argument devolves quickly into he-said she-said.

I think overall, that attitude needs to change. I get that EVE is a very competitive game. But by and large, RP isn't something you can actually win at, its something you do for fun, and its more fun if everyone plays along.

I don't think Stitcher is this forum, so attacking his posts alone is poor form, by the way.

I'm trying to summon him using Minmatar black magick.

[Tiberious Thessalonia]

The Amarr religion, even from the scriptures we do have available, is very clearly not an Abrahamic religion though.  I've outlined one reason (The IC scriptures say that Mercy is a trait of the Emperor, not a trait of God).  There is nothing that says that the Amarr remain in any way connected with Christianity, Judaism, or Islam in any way.

The Amarr scriptures are also gigantic.  As in "Translating all the books in one of the biggest libraries in Amarr to digital format, they still had trouble fitting them into an industrial class ship" huge.  NO ONE has read all of the scriptures, not even counting the fact that the scriptures contain books that are nothing but mathematics, or nonsense words designed to disconnect you from the material world, or treatises on aerodynamics, or books of particularly beautiful poetry.

Even if you go with the idea that the Amarr were once Christians, as has been implied, they have existed for 10x longer than that religion has existed IRL, and have been actively adding, editing, redacting, and changing their religion and its texts.  I would imagine that the bible as it exists IRL would be considered incredibly heretical and simplistic by Amarr standards.

So.  Attack monotheism or theism at all in general.  Thats fine.  But don't do it by bringing up specific IRL examples, because that religion doesn't exist here.

[JinOtsi]

Then what texts should people bring up? Can everyone just invent whatever the hell they want? So far the examples used have been generically monotheistic, theistic etc.

[Tiberious Thessalonia]

The Amarr RPers are handicapping themselves by using what's presented by CCP so far.  You should limit yourself to attacking the things presented in those same sources.

[JinOtsi]

Are they? I've seen some interesting pamphlets. I've also seen all kinds of interpretations of texts used without the text having been sourced anywhere in PF. As for "me", I have yet to drag anything real life into Eve, but I still think it's a far superior method to everyone just getting to invent whatever they want.

As for crippling yourself by only referring to the tiny snippets in PF, that's just not doable in the RP referenced in the OP.

[Tiberious Thessalonia]

I'm mainly concerned by trying to prevent OOC grudges from leaking into IC debates.  That way madness lies, tbh, as well as driving away portions of the RP community.

It's important to avoid using things in game as strawmen, basically.  The Amarr religion is detestable by our standards, no sane person is OOC debating that, which is why its all the more important to avoid using it as a stand-in for any existing religion which, though you may disagree with it on a very fundamental level OOC, is not as bad as the Amarrian one.

If you start thinking it is, it's time to put down the Sam Harris and take a walk outside.

[Laerise [PIE]]

The Amarr RPers are handicapping themselves by using what's presented by CCP so far.  You should limit yourself to attacking the things presented in those same sources.

We aren't handicaping our selves at all. It's called using what avaiable PF there is to the best effect possible.
The obvious problem is that (almost) everyone who "makes up scripture" is basically taking a bible-belt christian / salafist piece of real life religious text and slaps some golden paint on it. This is does not help at all and is thus disregarded as not true to CCP's vision.
Until CCP confirms that bible/qran/we. can be equated to scriptures this will remain the  stance of most reasonable amarr rp'ers.

@ Synthia: Btw I firmly believe that people like you who deliberately pick "funny / comedy" type characters and have them make up stuff to "spice things up" aren't exactly helping either.

[Laerise [PIE]]

Are they? I've seen some interesting pamphlets. I've also seen all kinds of interpretations of texts used without the text having been sourced anywhere in PF. As for "me", I have yet to drag anything real life into Eve, but I still think it's a far superior method to everyone just getting to invent whatever they want.

As for crippling yourself by only referring to the tiny snippets in PF, that's just not doable in the RP referenced in the OP.

PIE Inc. has a very successfull and well known history or "crippling" ourselves with the "tiny snippets", thank you for disregarding the oldest still active corp in EVE, who is also the oldest RP corp... 

[Seriphyn]

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Scriptures

This should give people an idea of what the Amarr texts are like in terms of general themes. On a DUST devblog, the Amarr are mentioned to seek to perfect the amalgamation of science and religion. We can't forget the Amarr were the first in space, so they found out everything about astrophysics first. The Scriptures will likely cover science as how God makes the universe function logically. It might offend our RL sensibilities in having an extremely successful and intellectual religion exist as the foundation for the oldest continuous civilization in human history, but thats the PF. I also find making up believable fanon with a basis in the canon is preferential to using RL material that has no basis in the canon. It shows some imagination at least, and deserves credit for that alone.

I also 200% agree that the Summit and IGS is not r/atheism. Unfortunately, this won't stop people from using it as such to RP block.

[Laerise [PIE]]

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Scriptures

This should give people an idea of what the Amarr texts are like in terms of general themes. On a DUST devblog, the Amarr are mentioned to seek to perfect the amalgamation of science and religion. We can't forget the Amarr were the first in space, so they found out everything about astrophysics first. The Scriptures will likely cover science as how God makes the universe function logically. It might offend our RL sensibilities in having an extremely successful and intellectual religion exist as the foundation for the oldest continuous civilization in human history, but thats the PF. I also find making up believable fanon with a basis in the canon is preferential to using RL material that has no basis in the canon. It shows some imagination at least, and deserves credit for that alone.

I also 200% agree that the Summit and IGS is not r/atheism. Unfortunately, this won't stop people from using it as such to RP block.

This, although I find it odd to have to agree on something with you, +1 

[JinOtsi]

I can definitely understand that concern. It's one that reared its head when I last looked through the IGS thread in question. I still think that if the RP in question is to happen (which is unstoppable at this point), then there needs to be some sort of common reference frame. Something both sides can use when debating this stuff. We can't have everyone just inventing whatever fits their own RP at the time, since that guarantees someone else being trod on and having their own RP shot down. In the same vein, we can't block some inventions while allowing others, since that ensures the same.

A common base to RP off of would be the best option and using the Abrahamic religions' scriptures would generally be the "fairest" option since everyone would have access to them and adjust them to fit the Amarrian RP. Just keeping out specific references (Moses, Jesus, Muhammed, the sermon on the mount etc) and just using the generic ones that fit any monotheistic religion means everyone gets to play on a level playing field that'd fit the Amarrian faith quite well.

As for the annoying and repeated complaints about r/atheism, that is frankly offensive and unwarranted. The atheist arguments and stances will very often come up in places like r/atheism, but that doesn't invalidate them nor the original sources r/atheism grabbed them from. They're used because they've withstood the test of time, reason and ceaseless attacks from different stances and viewpoints. Exactly how else do you expect atheist characters to debate these very subjects?