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Author Topic: The Futility of Amarr RP, as relating to Theology.  (Read 9045 times)

Saede Riordan

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Re: The Futility of Amarr RP, as relating to Theology.
« Reply #15 on: 17 Jan 2013, 08:58 »

I can definitely understand that concern. It's one that reared its head when I last looked through the IGS thread in question. I still think that if the RP in question is to happen (which is unstoppable at this point), then there needs to be some sort of common reference frame. Something both sides can use when debating this stuff. We can't have everyone just inventing whatever fits their own RP at the time, since that guarantees someone else being trod on and having their own RP shot down. In the same vein, we can't block some inventions while allowing others, since that ensures the same.

A common base to RP off of would be the best option and using the Abrahamic religions' scriptures would generally be the "fairest" option since everyone would have access to them and adjust them to fit the Amarrian RP. Just keeping out specific references (Moses, Jesus, Muhammed, the sermon on the mount etc) and just using the generic ones that fit any monotheistic religion means everyone gets to play on a level playing field that'd fit the Amarrian faith quite well.

As for the annoying and repeated complaints about r/atheism, that is frankly offensive and unwarranted. The atheist arguments and stances will very often come up in places like r/atheism, but that doesn't invalidate them nor the original sources r/atheism grabbed them from. They're used because they've withstood the test of time, reason and ceaseless attacks from different stances and viewpoints. Exactly how else do you expect atheist characters to debate these very subjects?

Yeah, this. All of it.
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Laerise [PIE]

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Re: The Futility of Amarr RP, as relating to Theology.
« Reply #16 on: 17 Jan 2013, 09:01 »

I can definitely understand that concern. It's one that reared its head when I last looked through the IGS thread in question. I still think that if the RP in question is to happen (which is unstoppable at this point), then there needs to be some sort of common reference frame. Something both sides can use when debating this stuff. We can't have everyone just inventing whatever fits their own RP at the time, since that guarantees someone else being trod on and having their own RP shot down. In the same vein, we can't block some inventions while allowing others, since that ensures the same.

A common base to RP off of would be the best option and using the Abrahamic religions' scriptures would generally be the "fairest" option since everyone would have access to them and adjust them to fit the Amarrian RP. Just keeping out specific references (Moses, Jesus, Muhammed, the sermon on the mount etc) and just using the generic ones that fit any monotheistic religion means everyone gets to play on a level playing field that'd fit the Amarrian faith quite well.

As for the annoying and repeated complaints about r/atheism, that is frankly offensive and unwarranted. The atheist arguments and stances will very often come up in places like r/atheism, but that doesn't invalidate them nor the original sources r/atheism grabbed them from. They're used because they've withstood the test of time, reason and ceaseless attacks from different stances and viewpoints. Exactly how else do you expect atheist characters to debate these very subjects?

Yeah, this. All of it.

Hey, how about you just use the background, supplied by CCP, who are the creators of the game?

[sarcasm] If you're  so adamant about using abrahamic religions (esp. "The spanish inquisition" stuff) as your point of referrence, why don't we start using Stalins gulag labour camps as the point of referrence for anything relating to the minmatar or sth? That should make for some very heated, thus "great IC discussions". [/sarcasm]

TL;DR: Use the scripture supplied by CCP for your arguments and don't drag in IRL stuff. It's what makes the debates on slavery devolve into excrement also.

Edit: It's also completely not "fair" to use abrahamic scriptures, because, as was pointed out earlier, the amarrian religion cannot be equated to any of them. It lets people pick OOC'ly loaded tidbits and use them to "win" a debate thats about a fictional religion.
« Last Edit: 17 Jan 2013, 09:03 by Laerise [PIE] »
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JinOtsi

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Re: The Futility of Amarr RP, as relating to Theology.
« Reply #17 on: 17 Jan 2013, 09:03 »

Because the background is almost non-existent? Give me a decent pen and I'll write the entire thing on my hand. It's insufficient for the purposes at hand.
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Seriphyn

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Re: The Futility of Amarr RP, as relating to Theology.
« Reply #18 on: 17 Jan 2013, 09:04 »

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Scriptures

Linking again. Use that to build IC atheist arguments. Example...

Quote
"In the beginning all things were as one.
God parted them and breathed life into his creation
Divided the parts and gave each its place
And unto each, bestowed purpose"
- The Scriptures, Book I 1:4

"Hey! God didn't give me any purpose! I define my own purpose, and no one has any place!"

Quote
As Garrulor rules the skies; as Frisceas rules the sea;
As Emperor rules Holder; as Holder rules Serf;
Yet all under Heaven serve Me;
So shall Amarr rule the worlds of the Heavens.
- The Scriptures, Book of Reclaiming 3.19 - 3.21

"Nobody serves anyone!"

Quote
There will be neither compassion nor mercy;
Nor peace, nor solace
For those who bear witness to these Signs
And still do not believe."
- The Scriptures, Book of Reclaiming 25:10

"Your God is a warmongerer!"

It's not difficult.
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Tiberious Thessalonia

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Re: The Futility of Amarr RP, as relating to Theology.
« Reply #19 on: 17 Jan 2013, 09:04 »

That's the tricky part though, Jin.

You have to argue against monotheism in general, but avoid traits that would be associated with a specific God.  Even the few snippets of PF show that the Amarr God is very much not the Abrahamic God (see the previous bit about mercy).  We know that the Amarr Scriptures are gigantic (I pretty much have to have Tib laugh, IC, at people who claim to have read more than a small portion of them, unless they are part of the theology council), as well as anyone who tries to quote directly out of IRL books, since the two religions are not the same.

We also know some of the scriptures are really, really weird.  I get the feeling that, for instance, The Book of Emptiness, while a powerful example, is not exactly an unusual one. 
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Synthia

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Re: The Futility of Amarr RP, as relating to Theology.
« Reply #20 on: 17 Jan 2013, 09:05 »

I can see the point, but I can't quite agree. These Scriptures are supposedly quite publicly available and the entire debate is completely impossible to have unless you RP it as such. This means that the meager amount of scripture available to us just won't do and world-building has to be done. This means either pulling in real life examples or just inventing something entirely. The first one is rather balanced as it gives everyone a level playing field. The other completely skews things since everyone will just invent something that backs their own side and which will almost certainly go against how others want to view it.

Worldbuilding is not straw-manning.
"The Amarr religion is backwards, because early Jews and Christians were 'backwards' (given what is known today)"

You consider that a level playing field ?
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Tiberious Thessalonia

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Re: The Futility of Amarr RP, as relating to Theology.
« Reply #21 on: 17 Jan 2013, 09:09 »

Other examples of good atheist arguments that can still be used IC.

"I do not believe in god because, to be quite honest, having weighed the evidence, there is no particular need for a God to exist in order for the universe to exist"

The Blind Watchmaker arguement

The Ultimate 747 argument

Ones that are bad:

"Your scriptures claim that eating shellfish is forbidden!  That was only true when we were dirty savage bronze age primitives who didn't know how to properly prepare and perserve food!"

"Tell me more about not wearing two different types of fabric at the same time?  Your scriptures are clearly nonsensical."
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Synthia

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Re: The Futility of Amarr RP, as relating to Theology.
« Reply #22 on: 17 Jan 2013, 09:12 »

Synthia, you'd already made up the Righteous Dress, and the Book of Demeanour, which is what Stitcher was referencing. Do only you get to decide what's in that piece of scripture? Do only Amarr bloc roleplayers get to make stuff up about their material? I don't think that should be the case.

A few sentences from the Book of Demeanour are on the Evelopedia. It says nothing about lengths of beards, stoning women for speaking in public or any of that sort.
The Righteous Dress is something created out of the mythic "Book of Fashion", which may or may not exist. Synthia has read it.

CTCS may choose which books of Scripture are canon, and which are not, because CTCS is not the Theology Council or the Blood Raider Covenant.

Should Amarr RP'ers be the only ones to imagine new Scriptures ?

Well... as was in the OP. "Minmatar Tribalism is full of atrocities on a larger scale than Rwanda. Sebiestor tribespeople set upon Brutor women and children with all manner of weapons, the slaughter was unprecedented.
The Amarr witnessed these tribal massacres and realised that only through invasion could these terrible crimes against humanity be ended."
You want people to make things like that up ? You really want to incorporate that into your RP ?
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JinOtsi

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Re: The Futility of Amarr RP, as relating to Theology.
« Reply #23 on: 17 Jan 2013, 09:15 »

I can see the point, but I can't quite agree. These Scriptures are supposedly quite publicly available and the entire debate is completely impossible to have unless you RP it as such. This means that the meager amount of scripture available to us just won't do and world-building has to be done. This means either pulling in real life examples or just inventing something entirely. The first one is rather balanced as it gives everyone a level playing field. The other completely skews things since everyone will just invent something that backs their own side and which will almost certainly go against how others want to view it.

Worldbuilding is not straw-manning.
"The Amarr religion is backwards, because early Jews and Christians were 'backwards' (given what is known today)"

You consider that a level playing field ?

Given how every single bit we've seen so far about the Amarrian faith is equally barbaric and backwards? Yes.

Seriphyn: Yes, I agree. Using the known scripture bits would be preferred, but there's almost none of them around. They constitute such a staggeringly infinitesimal volume of text that they just don't suffice for the debates in question. Especially not over the course of Eve's lifespan.

Tiberious: While the religions aren't the same, the generic bits and pieces used and referenced so far are hardly lacking in "generic". They've been so vague that they can fit any monotheistic religion you'd want to name. I would in fact say that without the stupid bits (like shellfish and mixed fabrics), it'd wildly unrealistic. If the Scriptures are as vast as you claim (and I have no doubt that they are) they're likely to contain so much absolute tosh and drivel that the dumbest parts of real life's religions would pale in comparison.

And again, Synthia: You pull religious stuff out of thin air whenever it suits CTCS. At least Stitcher's arguments contain sources that actually exists somewhere, game or not.

Is it really such a problem that religious texts are referenced as the backwards and barbaric texts they without a doubt are?
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Tiberious Thessalonia

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Re: The Futility of Amarr RP, as relating to Theology.
« Reply #24 on: 17 Jan 2013, 09:21 »

Is it really such a problem that religious texts are referenced as the backwards and barbaric texts they without a doubt are?

 :bash:

Please, please, please put down the Sam Harris for a bit.  Please.  This is what I'm talking about.  If you can't look at this sentence and go "Gee, I wonder if some of the people here might end up offended", or see that and go "Man, I hope they are offended", then I am going to straight up tell you that this isn't doing this side of the argument any favors.
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Stitcher

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Re: The Futility of Amarr RP, as relating to Theology.
« Reply #25 on: 17 Jan 2013, 09:22 »

The nature of the Scriptures was described as:
"we have the collected ramblings of people who mistook schizophrenia for demonic possession, felt that a powerful body odour was the best means to ward off the tormenting spectre of disease,"
This was challenged, and sources for these were asked for.

We do not feel that this was an unreasonable request, because while those attitudes were present in the beliefs of prehistoric jews and medieval christians, they're not something that's in Amarr religion.

Why not?  The first settlers on Athra were canonically a cult of Catholic extremists, I consider that all the justification I need for ripping a few bits from the Bible and changing them enough to represent ten thousand years of translation, mutation and revision.

In any case, there have already been examples of people making up some of what's in the Scriptures. They define which specific bits of the Empire's scientific understanding are included in it, they talk about Saint So-and-So or claim that Scripture justifies or underpins their character's behaviour, even when none of the few scraps of Scripture we actually have mention anything of the sort.

Is that godmoding too? Because If they get to do that, so do I. I didn't claim that the bits other people have made up don't exist or aren't based in PF, so please don't do it to me.

All I've done is fold some of the wackier and less savoury parts of existing Abrahamic religions - on which Amarr is not just thematically based but historically derived according to the PF - into the argument.

You don't get to have a religion that's all nobility and niceness, not when that religion clearly and unapologetically endorses slavery. I'm sorry if you consider it godmoding when I rub a little dirt on, but given that nobody calls it that when I invent the names of Splinterz teams, or non-DUST infantry gear, or the names of cities on unimportant planets, or conduct an (inconclusive) experiment based on a theory I have about how Sansha's mind control nanites work, or hell, if I invent NPCs that my character is supposed to have talked to....

Why is it suddenly Godmoding when I describe some of the themes that I consider it perfectly realistic would appear in the Amarr Scriptures? I didn't invent quotes, I invented ways in which said quotes could be interpreted. I didn't provide imaginary chapter and verse when challenged, I said "go read your own damn holy book" thereby opening the door for the character to provide an alternative interpretation.  I've bent over backwards to do nothing more than detail-building.

The Amarr were a primitive people, once. They're still, in many important regards, a primitive people today. They may be scientifically highly literate and extremely advanced, but ethically and morally they're still medieval at best. They're a theocracy that practices slavery for goodness' sake, what's clear about them from that is that they're not going to excise stuff from the scriptures for good, thinking, modern moral reasons, but rather because it interferes with the Theocracy's grip of power.

That means that wherever something in the Scriptures looks and reads a lot like Leviticus is very probably still there, and most people just sort of gloss over that it exists. It's not detrimental to the faith therefore the Theology Council never edited it out, and it sticks around like clutter in a busy house that nobody has the time to deal with.

I don't agree that I've been godmoding. I'm sorry if you feel that I have been and if it continues to upset people I'll have Verin quit the conversation entirely out of frustration, how's that sound?
« Last Edit: 17 Jan 2013, 09:31 by Stitcher »
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JinOtsi

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Re: The Futility of Amarr RP, as relating to Theology.
« Reply #26 on: 17 Jan 2013, 09:24 »

Is it really such a problem that religious texts are referenced as the backwards and barbaric texts they without a doubt are?

 :bash:

Please, please, please put down the Sam Harris for a bit.  Please.  This is what I'm talking about.  If you can't look at this sentence and go "Gee, I wonder if some of the people here might end up offended", or see that and go "Man, I hope they are offended", then I am going to straight up tell you that this isn't doing this side of the argument any favors.

I've actually never read Sam Harris' books. I just don't care if it's offensive or not. I'm not going to censor what's so far shown itself to be the objective truth unless you or someone else can provide arguments to that effect. Besides, it's frankly irrelevant to the debate in question, which is world-building and RP. "It may be offensive" is not an argument in that case, given Eve's rather grimdark view of pretty much everything. I can't off the top of my head find a single aspect of New Eden that's not offensive in fact.
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Laerise [PIE]

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Re: The Futility of Amarr RP, as relating to Theology.
« Reply #27 on: 17 Jan 2013, 09:24 »

I can see the point, but I can't quite agree. These Scriptures are supposedly quite publicly available and the entire debate is completely impossible to have unless you RP it as such. This means that the meager amount of scripture available to us just won't do and world-building has to be done. This means either pulling in real life examples or just inventing something entirely. The first one is rather balanced as it gives everyone a level playing field. The other completely skews things since everyone will just invent something that backs their own side and which will almost certainly go against how others want to view it.

Worldbuilding is not straw-manning.
"The Amarr religion is backwards, because early Jews and Christians were 'backwards' (given what is known today)"

You consider that a level playing field ?

Given how every single bit we've seen so far about the Amarrian faith is equally barbaric and backwards? Yes.

Quote me solid facts of kindly stop producing so much nonsense... :|

Quote
Seriphyn: Yes, I agree. Using the known scripture bits would be preferred, but there's almost none of them around. They constitute such a staggeringly infinitesimal volume of text that they just don't suffice for the debates in question. Especially not over the course of Eve's lifespan.

Thats a weak excuse for the blatant (ab)use of strawman arguments, your point is invalid.

Quote
Tiberious: While the religions aren't the same, the generic bits and pieces used and referenced so far are hardly lacking in "generic". They've been so vague that they can fit any monotheistic religion you'd want to name. I would in fact say that without the stupid bits (like shellfish and mixed fabrics), it'd wildly unrealistic. If the Scriptures are as vast as you claim (and I have no doubt that they are) they're likely to contain so much absolute tosh and drivel that the dumbest parts of real life's religions would pale in comparison.

Once again a strawman argument, if you want anyone to take you seriously start arguing the facts.
You invalidate your argument further by adding valuating statements like "stupid bits" btw.

The scriptures are as vast as claimed, if you want to contribute anything instead of blatant trolling then you should read the wiki article on them on the official evelopedia. (Blatant trolling is against the rules of this forum btw, I don't agree with that rule, but nobody seems to give a damn about my feelings in this case, maybe for the best :P )

Quote
And again, Synthia: You pull religious stuff out of thin air whenever it suits CTCS. At least Stitcher's arguments contain sources that actually exists somewhere, game or not.

Is it really such a problem that religious texts are referenced as the backwards and barbaric texts they without a doubt are?

They are not as backwards nor as barbaric as you make them sound. I have yet to run into anyone who'd call a PhD dissertation on astrophysics or brainsurgery barbaric or backwards  :psyccp:
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Seriphyn

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Re: The Futility of Amarr RP, as relating to Theology.
« Reply #28 on: 17 Jan 2013, 09:25 »

Is it really such a problem that religious texts are referenced as the backwards and barbaric texts they without a doubt are?

So backwards, that they beat everyone else to space, by thousands of years.

It's scriptures that support an entire civilization, not just a religion that is part of that civilization. The Amarr Scriptures can NOT be backwards otherwise they wouldn't have been first into space. Nor would they have outlived every human civilization known to EVE and RL.

Quote
The Amarr were a primitive people, once. They're still, in many important regards, a primitive people today. They're a theocracy that practices slavery for goodness' sake, what's clear about them from that is that they're not going to excise stuff from the scriptures for good, thinking, modern moral reasons, but rather because it interferes with the Theocracy's grip of power.

That's really down to POV, and is built on the assumption there is an absolute scale that defines how advanced a civilization is.
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Tiberious Thessalonia

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Re: The Futility of Amarr RP, as relating to Theology.
« Reply #29 on: 17 Jan 2013, 09:25 »

It applies because it shows an OOC grudge that is leaking IC.
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