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Author Topic: Rationale behind Minmatar-Caldari friendliness  (Read 24311 times)

Gesakaarin

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Re: Rationale behind Minmatar-Caldari friendliness
« Reply #60 on: 24 Dec 2012, 06:24 »

I've always wondered why everyone assumes the Caldari and Amarr are Best Friends when their alliance is nothing more than mutual interests and realpolitik aimed at containing the Federation diplomatically and territorially to their own advantage. Just because State Megas do business in the Empire does not mean they automatically condone its culture and politics, it's just the nature of corporations to seek their expansion into as many markets as possible for their own (And the State's) interests.

Kaalakiota for one has stations in the Federation, Empire and Republic and potentially continues some degree of operations in all three under the SCC. It does this because it wants market share and profit like any corporation, if it didn't expand operations and penetrate markets then it wouldn't be a business. Kaalakiota, like most Caldari megas is solely interested in advancing their own power and agendas and this extends generally to the State because that mindset of there being only ones own interests pursued at the expense of everyone else lies at the core of the Megacorporate mindset through the CEP and also held in varying degrees by its citizens.

The State and the Megacorporations could generally be said to be concerned solely about relative power compared to the rest of New Eden and particularly in ensuring its national survival through maintaining economic and military strength in comparison to others. With that worldview, the greatest threats to the national survival of the State are the Federation and Empire, and when the NAP with the Empire was signed the Federation was still very much a legitimate threat to the State if not an outright hostile entity whose motives were to be treated with suspicion.

Even with the change of relations between the Federation and State after Yioul and the formation of CONCORD where there was a re-engagement of sorts in bilateral relation and cross-border trade brought a thawing of relations, an alliance with the Empire still remained a relationship of strategic importance because it was insurance against hawks and nationalists in the Fed acting upon their agenda by having a powerful nation nominally aligned against them right on their border in addition to granting Caldari Megas preferential treatment over their Federal counterparts in Imperial markets.

The reason the State does not pursue an alliance with the Republic is that it simply does not grant the same strategic and economic benefits that its alliance with the Empire does. The Republic might be viewed by the State as essentially being a failed state on Federal life-support and taxpayer funding whose tribal system leads to government inefficiency and corruption that's just bad for business and whose military is not significant enough to hold off both the Federation and Empire in any future conflict in which the State and Republic are allies. It might be said that slavery should be cause enough for a State-Republic alliance but then again it's not Caldari citizens that are being held in chains; the Minmatar were more than glad to enslave each other in internecine wars in the past; and frankly, any Caldari leader that places supposed ethical considerations before the interests of the State and their corporation would be guilty of gross incompetence and more for the only moral imperative is to ensure the protection of the interests and maintenance of relative power of the Caldari State and people.

The only real relationship I see between the State and Republic is one of maintaining a phony war across their mutual border without actually invading and making assurances to that effect in private while seeking to play the Empire and Federation against each other so that they are able manipulate both in their own interests of gaining funds and materiel while ensuring a movement of opposing military units elsewhere to secure their own war fronts for themselves against their larger adversaries.

Given that view I'm not really sure where the whole Caldari-Minmatar outreach comes from because I don't think even the Liberals or Ishukone concerned themselves with the issue of Minmatar slavery when they sold TCMC to Khanid/Amarrian Holders to trial on slaves or that Gariushi's crisis of conscience over Insorum and giving it to the Minmatar only arrived near the end of his life. Unless it's Caldari playing the dissident Civire angle from the background, who move to the Republic for the same reasons as the Brothers of Freedom due to disagreements over the system in the Caldari State, yet still believe themselves patriotic enough not to live in the Federation during their exile with their diaspora brethren.

In the end, if the Republic is unable to provide tangible benefits to the State both economically or strategically then any discussions about formal alliances really is a moot point because for the citizens of the State the world is divided between those who are Caldari and serve State interests and then there's everyone else - you serve your own interests before worrying about the problems of others who are not citizens. Some might find such a worldview distasteful, but every nation in Eve does the same to one extent or the other otherwise they'd be consigned to the dustbins of history. The only difference is that the Caldari State is honest about it and doesn't wrap up its intentions in democratic and religious platitudes or moral and ethical self-aggrandizement.
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JinOtsi

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Re: Rationale behind Minmatar-Caldari friendliness
« Reply #61 on: 24 Dec 2012, 06:43 »

Snippity Snip.

The only real relationship I see between the State and Republic is one of maintaining a phony war across their mutual border without actually invading and making assurances to that effect in private while seeking to play the Empire and Federation against each other so that they are able manipulate both in their own interests of gaining funds and materiel while ensuring a movement of opposing military units elsewhere to secure their own war fronts for themselves against their larger adversaries.

Even more Snip.

Some might find such a worldview distasteful, but every nation in Eve does the same to one extent or the other otherwise they'd be consigned to the dustbins of history. The only difference is that the Caldari State is honest about it and doesn't wrap up its intentions in democratic and religious platitudes or moral and ethical self-aggrandizement.

The entire post is pretty much the best post on the subject so far, but I'd like to emphasize these two paragraphs in particular. If we also add to this that the Caldari has a significant motivation for preserving their culture, they would possibly be the nation in New Eden with the second greatest desire to ensure that the Empire never comes out on top, given they're probably only second to the Sansha on the "Take over, stamp on everything and replace it with our own religion/ideology/culture/politics etc" list. How to do that? Well, look up at the first paragraph I quoted.

Practical neutrality is quite simply the most beneficial stance for both the State and Republic at this point.

And frankly, what the hell is the Empire going to do about it? Cripple their own economy? They're as dependent on the State as the other way around and short of switching sides the Empire simply can't justify severing ties. It'd hurt them as badly if not worse than the State.
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Gesakaarin

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Re: Rationale behind Minmatar-Caldari friendliness
« Reply #62 on: 24 Dec 2012, 07:01 »

The entire post is pretty much the best post on the subject so far, but I'd like to emphasize these two paragraphs in particular. If we also add to this that the Caldari has a significant motivation for preserving their culture, they would possibly be the nation in New Eden with the second greatest desire to ensure that the Empire never comes out on top, given they're probably only second to the Sansha on the "Take over, stamp on everything and replace it with our own religion/ideology/culture/politics etc" list. How to do that? Well, look up at the first paragraph I quoted.

Practical neutrality is quite simply the most beneficial stance for both the State and Republic at this point.

I'd say if the State wasn't currently hard-locked into the continuation of conflict due to a need of keeping FW alive then its leaders would have realized the benefits inherent in seeking an honorable solution over Caldari Prime through an armistice with Federation; pursuing armed neutrality and detente aimed at preserving its territorial integrity and then proceeding to seek in ensuring an escalation of conflict between the Federation, Republic and Empire aimed at bleeding them all out to the very bone while the Megacorporations use their neutral position to their own advantage to sell armaments to all side while making promises of potential support to all three and then maneuvering the State into the best possible position after the dust settles by offering, "Infrastructure Redevelopment".

That aside, the Caldari have always been described as particularly pragmatic, practical and patriotic - the alliance with the Empire has always been a cynical one aimed at delivering short and medium term gains for the State. Honestly, I'm also quite sure the CEP is watching if Sarum delivers on her promises of beginning a new Reclaiming because then the only option for the State would be to hop in bed with the Fed and apply the boots to the Empire, medium style.
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JinOtsi

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Re: Rationale behind Minmatar-Caldari friendliness
« Reply #63 on: 24 Dec 2012, 07:06 »

The entire post is pretty much the best post on the subject so far, but I'd like to emphasize these two paragraphs in particular. If we also add to this that the Caldari has a significant motivation for preserving their culture, they would possibly be the nation in New Eden with the second greatest desire to ensure that the Empire never comes out on top, given they're probably only second to the Sansha on the "Take over, stamp on everything and replace it with our own religion/ideology/culture/politics etc" list. How to do that? Well, look up at the first paragraph I quoted.

Practical neutrality is quite simply the most beneficial stance for both the State and Republic at this point.

I'd say if the State wasn't currently hard-locked into the continuation of conflict due to a need of keeping FW alive then its leaders would have realized the benefits inherent in seeking an honorable solution over Caldari Prime through an armistice with Federation; pursuing armed neutrality and detente aimed at preserving its territorial integrity and then proceeding to seek in ensuring an escalation of conflict between the Federation, Republic and Empire aimed at bleeding them all out to the very bone while the Megacorporations use their neutral position to their own advantage to sell armaments to all side while making promises of potential support to all three and then maneuvering the State into the best possible position after the dust settles by offering, "Infrastructure Redevelopment".

That aside, the Caldari have always been described as particularly pragmatic, practical and patriotic - the alliance with the Empire has always been a cynical one aimed at delivering short and medium term gains for the State. Honestly, I'm also quite sure the CEP is watching if Sarum delivers on her promises of beginning a new Reclaiming because then the only option for the State would be to hop in bed with the Fed and apply the boots to the Empire, medium style.

I don't know who you are, but I like you.
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Publius Valerius

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Re: Rationale behind Minmatar-Caldari friendliness
« Reply #64 on: 24 Dec 2012, 07:14 »

Snippity Snip.

The only real relationship I see between the State and Republic is one of maintaining a phony war across their mutual border without actually invading and making assurances to that effect in private while seeking to play the Empire and Federation against each other so that they are able manipulate both in their own interests of gaining funds and materiel while ensuring a movement of opposing military units elsewhere to secure their own war fronts for themselves against their larger adversaries.

Even more Snip.

Some might find such a worldview distasteful, but every nation in Eve does the same to one extent or the other otherwise they'd be consigned to the dustbins of history. The only difference is that the Caldari State is honest about it and doesn't wrap up its intentions in democratic and religious platitudes or moral and ethical self-aggrandizement.

The entire post is pretty much the best post on the subject so far, but I'd like to emphasize these two paragraphs in particular. If we also add to this that the Caldari has a significant motivation for preserving their culture, they would possibly be the nation in New Eden with the second greatest desire to ensure that the Empire never comes out on top, given they're probably only second to the Sansha on the "Take over, stamp on everything and replace it with our own religion/ideology/culture/politics etc" list. How to do that? Well, look up at the first paragraph I quoted.

Practical neutrality is quite simply the most beneficial stance for both the State and Republic at this point.

And frankly, what the hell is the Empire going to do about it? Cripple their own economy? They're as dependent on the State as the other way around and short of switching sides the Empire simply can't justify severing ties. It'd hurt them as badly if not worse than the State.

lol.... As I said again and again.... Plz explain your theory. And plz use all players. "Practical neutrality is quite simply the most beneficial stance for both the State and Republic at this point." I got tickeling again as I read this. First... you and I repeat you have to show that that is the case.... that both will win (as I said some post earlier ..lazy to search... their isnt a new win-win). But if you find one, plz explain.

So your first task is: To show that "neutrality is quite simply the most beneficial stance for the republic.... than play it tru again for the State (as werent Tony G... we arent doint any makro makra anlyse.... so try to use the weber bathtube... makro-miko-miko-makro... in short form: Imagen the nation as players). So I repeat again.... Ones play it tru for the State and than again for the Republic.

Have you done it? If the answer is yes. than it comes the next step, show that despite "anarchy in the ineternatial relations" and other players (like Fed and Empire); that this point "neutral stance" is even possible.


As I said it before... and I repeat myself very often, not just say, that will happend... or even lazier just define it as something that will happend... How I mean it. When you say, And frankly, what the hell is the Empire going to do about it? Cripple their own economy? You have to prove that it would cripple their economy. How... you would have to show that they are  interdependenz (like the KK and state see here).... which isnt the case as I know the lore.... But as I said, if you find a link were a interpendenz between Empire and State is proven... I will take it as point. So again... play it tru with all players and all player individually... than take other players in, and look what you have... ( a prisoner's dilemma or a deadlock game? etc...).... Than we can talk about interdependenz :lol:
« Last Edit: 24 Dec 2012, 07:18 by Publius Valerius »
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JinOtsi

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Re: Rationale behind Minmatar-Caldari friendliness
« Reply #65 on: 24 Dec 2012, 07:15 »

You do realize I'm not actually reading your posts, Publius? I don't have the magic decoder ring.
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Publius Valerius

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Re: Rationale behind Minmatar-Caldari friendliness
« Reply #66 on: 24 Dec 2012, 07:17 »

You do realize I'm not actually reading your posts, Publius? I don't have the magic decoder ring.

Which means? you are right or what? Their is now magically a interdependenz between state and empire?.....lol you clown..... interdependenz means more than they are working together.... it means both are in a correlation together. And some would say that the Empire is the most autark ones, as the lore article confirmes...So BS:P
« Last Edit: 11 Jan 2013, 10:39 by Publius Valerius »
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Hamish Grayson

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Re: Rationale behind Minmatar-Caldari friendliness
« Reply #67 on: 24 Dec 2012, 07:19 »

they're probably only second to the Sansha on the "Take over, stamp on everything and replace it with our own religion/ideology/culture/politics etc" list.

My opinion is that the Federation sits firmly a top that list.  Not only are they the most driven, especially were the Caldari are concerned, but by far the most effective and efficient at it.  Look at what they've done to the Minmatar.
« Last Edit: 24 Dec 2012, 07:25 by Hamish Grayson »
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JinOtsi

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Re: Rationale behind Minmatar-Caldari friendliness
« Reply #68 on: 24 Dec 2012, 07:30 »

they're probably only second to the Sansha on the "Take over, stamp on everything and replace it with our own religion/ideology/culture/politics etc" list.

My opinion is that the Federation sits firmly a top that list.  Not only are they the most driven, especially were the Caldari are concerned, but by far the most effective and efficient at it.  Look at what they've done to the Minmatar.

I would agree, except it's a slightly different kind. Instead of stamping it out, it's consuming it and twisting it. That's a whole different debate though, I think. Even if it is a quite solid point in favor of the Republic being wary of the Feddies.
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Publius Valerius

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Re: Rationale behind Minmatar-Caldari friendliness
« Reply #69 on: 24 Dec 2012, 07:42 »

they're probably only second to the Sansha on the "Take over, stamp on everything and replace it with our own religion/ideology/culture/politics etc" list.

My opinion is that the Federation sits firmly a top that list.  Not only are they the most driven, especially were the Caldari are concerned, but by far the most effective and efficient at it.  Look at what they've done to the Minmatar.

I would agree, except it's a slightly different kind. Instead of stamping it out, it's consuming it and twisting it. That's a whole different debate though, I think. Even if it is a quite solid point in favor of the Republic being wary of the Feddies.

Come on... plz explain what you meant with magic ring...

By the way... can you explain this: "Practical neutrality is quite simply the most beneficial stance for both the State and Republic at this point.

And frankly, what the hell is the Empire going to do about it? Cripple their own economy? They're as dependent on the State as the other way around and short of switching sides the Empire simply can't justify severing ties. It'd hurt them as badly if not worse than the State."

As others already said and even you... Yes closer relationship hurts the State... as the Empire will act. So now... Why should the state than do it? Just on the "two" small chances/possibilities, that first: the new status quo on the mimatar maket will counterweight it and that the other side (minmatar) will not trick you? Both has to be true or they will not do it.

So again... plz explain. At leat this little question... why are both "things" are true in your case? No outsmarting ... from no ones (and we have here just two players... Can you imagen more  :lol:?); and best case scenaro of a economical counterweight, achieve tru this "new above the current stutus quo"....
« Last Edit: 24 Dec 2012, 14:18 by Publius Valerius »
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Lyn Farel

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Re: Rationale behind Minmatar-Caldari friendliness
« Reply #70 on: 24 Dec 2012, 09:26 »

I find that last page quite biased at times.
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Silver Night

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Re: Rationale behind Minmatar-Caldari friendliness
« Reply #71 on: 24 Dec 2012, 12:56 »

Publius, going to put my moderator hat on here for a moment: I understand for some people on the board English isn't their first language, but spell checking and proper punctuation might help. I frankly can't tell what you are saying in virtually any of your posts, and I think that is probably hurting your ability to participate in the debate. If I (and others) can't tell what you are trying to say, we can't really respond to or discuss the points you are trying to raise.

Publius Valerius

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Re: Rationale behind Minmatar-Caldari friendliness
« Reply #72 on: 24 Dec 2012, 13:22 »

Publius, going to put my moderator hat on here for a moment: I understand for some people on the board English isn't their first language, but spell checking and proper punctuation might help. I frankly can't tell what you are saying in virtually any of your posts, and I think that is probably hurting your ability to participate in the debate. If I (and others) can't tell what you are trying to say, we can't really respond to or discuss the points you are trying to raise.

Sure, sure.


The way you phrased the question dismisses the possibility that on an individual level characters might have reasons other than realpolitik or 'hipness' or 'badassness' for wanting a better relationship between the Republic and the State. (Incidentally, I don't think assigning those kind of motives to players fosters the debate in a useful way.)

There can be ideological reasons (which may have more to do with opposing Heth, for example, than actual interest in the Republic), or even personal reasons (relationships with people in the Republic).
http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=3884.msg62344#msg62344
About, that comment from you. It left me with some question marks. It raised the question by me: How those that "opposing Heth" improves or in general changes your relationship with a minmatar?


I think it bears repeating that a better relationship with the State isn't the same as suddenly switching sides and declaring war on the Federation or something - and in fact from a diplomatic point of view, a better relationship with the State gives the Republic leverage with the Gallente (Let's make this agreement more favorable for us, or maybe we get it from our new friends in the State.) That's a fairly classic move, diplomatically.

http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=3884.msg62418#msg62418
This comment from you left me as well with some question marks. As I mention before, why you dont count any leverage the Gallente could have? Why in your example, have the players* different "tools", which they can use in their relationship to each other? Do you think you have miss something? Would you say, you have give a unbalance view? Meaning that you miss a major part, which others have mention? *cough*

Something which could neutralize a matari leverage on the gallente? Anything?

players*=nations, empires
Edit:If their is any question just ask.
« Last Edit: 24 Dec 2012, 15:26 by Publius Valerius »
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Publius Valerius

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Re: Rationale behind Minmatar-Caldari friendliness
« Reply #73 on: 24 Dec 2012, 13:34 »

Publius, going to put my moderator hat on here for a moment: I understand for some people on the board English isn't their first language, but spell checking and proper punctuation might help. I frankly can't tell what you are saying in virtually any of your posts, and I think that is probably hurting your ability to participate in the debate. If I (and others) can't tell what you are trying to say, we can't really respond to or discuss the points you are trying to raise.

If any question comes up..... Just ask people....
Some may ask maybe:Why is economical autarky different from economical interdependence? Or why does the one exclude the other? Or what I mean with "tricky*" or "no guarantee"?.... Just ask and I will try to explain it with an prisoner dilemma.


Edit:*tricks

« Last Edit: 24 Dec 2012, 14:17 by Publius Valerius »
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Shaalira

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Re: Rationale behind Minmatar-Caldari friendliness
« Reply #74 on: 24 Dec 2012, 16:38 »

The story will go where feature development demands that it goes.

And CCP will continue to develop lore and news articles that gives all four empires cause to distrust / dislike one another, while foiling attempts at long-term reconciliation.  This is because war, mistrust, and ethnocentrism all create conflict-driven content.

Speculation on what is in the true interest of each nation state is all well and good.  But in the end, this is an MMO.  And resolving either the Empyrean War or Sansha's Incursions will result in a removed or heavily modified game feature.  Consider the likelihood of the Alliance and Horde resolving their differences peacefully.  Their animosity isn't just story - it's game design.
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