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[Seriphyn]

I might be influenced too much by the Summit/OOC clique here, but I'm just probing to see if the desire for improved Minmatar and Caldari relations is driven by actual realpolitik or because these two factions are "hip" and "cool" or badass or whatever.

The Caldari do not seem to give a shit about any other group unless they are Caldari. They are inward-looking or somesuch, which is fine. Can't expect a man to sacrifice his child for ten anonymous lives. But I don't think I understand why the Caldari would want to associate with the Minmatar beyond having another market to exploit, especially a market which doesn't seem to put much stock in capitalism (thus making it easier to dominate, as the Gallente have done). Similarly, if the Minmatar have allegedly not fairer well under Gallente influence, they sure as heck won't under the Caldari, who dont even have the humanitarian pretense that the Fed has.

Now its fine to RP against the grain, I was just wondering if there was OOC awareness of the above points. I don't think the corporation = tribe angle works since thats going to be present in any human society, just with different names. Spirituality doesn't work either, considering there are similar beliefs amongst the Gallente. Cultural similarities are not enough. There needs to be a core strategic reason from which rationalities (such as culture) can be derived AFTER not before.

The original reason the Gallente helped the Minmatar was to weaken the Amarr. The ideology of emancipation supported the strategy. Whether characters want to accept it or not, the Federation is the most powerful empire other than the Amarr. If the Minmatar want to destroy the Amarr, it is in their best interest to remain with the Gallente, not move to the Caldari who have little interest in other races business. They'd alienate all the Minmatar in the Fed, too. If I were Caldari wanting to build bridges with the Minmatar, you'd want to make peace with the Fed first.

[Silas Vitalia]

Great opinion, agreed.

I think I treat any Caldari/Matari relationships as more an aberration than the norm.    Especially with TLF pilots assisting FDU pilots against State interest.


I've a feeling the State as a whole is extremely cut and dry with this sort of thing, and wouldn't even beat around the bush politically.

"Assisting my enemy makes you my enemy."  *Fires Torpedos"

[Esna Pitoojee]

I've long suspected that there was a deliberate element of "tragedy" included in that the two cultures who have many elements of their history in common ended up on opposite sides of the battle lines. At this point, I don't think the gap that has been rended between the Caldari and the Matari will be mended terribly soon.

[Seriphyn]

Oh yeah, would stress the above is just an opinion. I just havent heard anything beyond "it would be cool".

And I dont think the enslavement of the Minmatar is comparable at all to the Gallente-Caldari dispute.

[Mithfindel]

Well, if we go on the "enemy of my enemy is my friend", then if the Matari oppose a specific megacorporation, they might be temporary allies with their domestic competitors. However, there is some mutual reason for keeping each other at an arm's length, not the least the Matari habit to steal Caldari technology. Uh, not sure what the description says right now, but back in its mining days, the Scythe had bits and pieces stolen from the Caldari. As an example. Also, some Matari may appear as cannon fodder to the Gallente.

Outside of these specific cases, I'd expect that the Caldari view of the Minmatar would be rather neutral. Back when we had shareholder information, at least Kaalakiota owned stock in a few Minmatar corporations. Edit: And if co-operation works, it might grow into friendship, but this is highly case-specific.

Edit 2: Assuming old shareholder information is correct, Echelon Entertainment has 15% share of Native Freshfood. E3: Caldari Funds Unlimited, 20% share on the Leisure Group. Err, ok. (Isn't quite as bad as Angels owning shares in TransStellar Shipping!)

[Pieter Tuulinen]

Both races are highly exclusive in terms of their membership and insular in their outlook. They both resent any attempts to meddle with what they see as their self-determination and have a certain amount of impatience with 'crusader' cultures like the Amarr and Gallente.

Alliances with the Amarr and Gallente always carry with them the knowledge that the Amarr wish to prosletyse for their Faith and that the Gallente are inveterate political meddlers. I can see both the Minmatar and Caldari finding that tiresome.

[Morwen Lagann]

On the other hand, I can't see either of those outweighing the fact that the Caldari are allied with the Amarrians, Pieter. The State's own anti-slavery stance is irrelevant - they are still allied with the Empire despite it.

Until the State gives the Amarrians the diplomatic equivalent of a defenestration, it's completely unrealistic as a concept that the Republic and the State could be allies.

[Seriphyn]

But that's ideology, not strategy. Just because they are insular doesn't mean they are naturally compatible. Plenty of Gallente are insular and anticrusade. Doesnt make them natural allies to the Caldari. In addition, the Caldari are said to be the most meddlesome, not the Gallente or Amarr. That would be worrisome to any Minmatar; at least the Gallente and Amarr have SOME noble intentions. The Caldari want to make a profit for themselves.

[Silas Vitalia]

I think plotting against rival Megacorps stop right at the State border; IE they are cuthroat with each other but the State comes first.

Alliances with foreigners to dominate another Megacorp seems to cross several lines for me, but my State RP knowledge is fairly weak.

[Seriphyn]

Oh, approaches to foreign policy is not enough. Real life comparison; US have been interventionist recently, while Europe is avoiding what it sees as neocolonialism. The two are still allies.

[kalaratiri]

The reasoning I've heard behind this is the supposed similarity between the Caldari mega-corporations and the Minmatar tribal structure. While I can take some of the points behind this idea into account, having been a member of SKDI in I-RED, I was never entirely convinced and neither was Kala. Mainly for the reasons mentioned above, to do with the Caldari already being allies of the Amarr. It's why my viewpoint began to shift towards 'Minmatar first, everyone else can screw themselves' >.>

[Lyn Farel]

Pretty much my opinion Seri, yes.

Firstly I think parallels can be made between every faction. We can even find parallels between the Minmatar and the Amarr easily (like they both are at least partially anti meritocratic on paper and both have a form of aristocracy). It doesnt make them that close to each other to the point of being buddies.

Then the megacorp = tribe idea is quite stretched in my opinion. As Seri said then a megacorp can be equated to a Holder's lands, or to a fed district/state. The only thing they share is the territorial scale and the fact that they are just below the upper governement in terms of power.

Every faction is incompatible with the others more than it is compatible, or compatible factions would already have more or less merged together.

Culturally wise, I really doubt that the Caldari society would fit the Minmatar very well :

- Asking them to be meek, productive citizens, when most Minmatar have a staunch independant and free mindset, almost "rebel" in essence, where the Caldari average citizen is only a cog in the machine, and proud of it. Community vs individualism -> conflicting.

- Asking them to sacrify their traditions in favor of meritocracy and/or plutocracy. In tribal society, the elder people are revered and hold most of the power. It's kindof like a seniority succession, where it is not merit that is valued, but experience (associated, rightly or not, to the age). And when it is not directly linked to the age, it probably is to the experience. Of course, subtribes are legion, all with their different rules and laws and culture, but still. Meritocracy vs Seniority -> conflicting.

- Probably more...

In terlms of realpolitik and historical events, the Caldari and the Minmatar, at best, do not like each other very much. I wouldnt say that they are neutral or indifferent toward each other at all.

Firstly, the most obvious, the Caldari are Amarr allies, and even if they do not practice slavery, they also have nothing against it except when it breaches their internal laws forbidding it.

Secondly, a lot of caldari megacorps have important contracts with the Ammatar Mandate for mineral prospects on the borderzone, and are often only a step behind the usual skirmishes in the ambiant chaos here.

[Arnulf Ogunkoya]

Lyn, I'm not sure that most Minmatar have a "staunch independant and free mindset." I get the impression that clans tend to enforce conformity on their members. And to a lesser extent so do tribes. Maybe not to the same degree as the Caldari Megas, but this is an analogy we are discussing rather than an equivalence.

I would agree that as nations they are unlikely to be allied, except on very rare occasions. RSS being the twisty minded folks that they are I can't see them being being above using the Caldari to prevent the Gallente becoming too dominant. Likewise the Caldari can use the Minmatar to keep the Imperials nervous and inclined to keep them as allies, rather than potential vassals.

Pieter states "Both races are highly exclusive in terms of their membership." My experience of Minmatar roleplay is that a person is widely held to be Matari if they take the time to learn the ways of a clan and undergo a Voluval; this is regardless of actual ethnicity. I have no idea if PF supports this at all, but it doesn't seem unreasonable.

If all this seems odd then bear in mind that capsuleers are supposed to be odd. If nothing else we can travel a lot more and see a lot more of other cultures. One thing that might make for an interesting PF seed is the effect this has on our crews, and the effect they have when they retire to stationside, or travel back down the well.

[Louella Dougans]

several Caldari are enthusiastic converts to the Amarrian faith.

it's probably one of Anoyia's scriptures that does it. the "constantly prove yourself worthy" thing, of continual self-improvement.

[Mithfindel]

I think plotting against rival Megacorps stop right at the State border; IE they are cuthroat with each other but the State comes first.

Alliances with foreigners to dominate another Megacorp seems to cross several lines for me, but my State RP knowledge is fairly weak.

Corporate-specific alliances with foreign entities include, amongst others, Lai Dai's invenstment into Khanid Innovations. Of course, it is arguable that the Greater Amarr is allied to the State.

As of corporations backstabbing each other abroad, there's mentions in PF about corporations sabotaging each other. I was able to find the following:
http://community.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=3431&tid=11
(Though for some reason I seem to remember that it wasn't the only such incident - I also think the Lai Dai / SuVee thing spilt abroad... just can't find the news.)