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[Silas Vitalia]

When I am told of cases wherein RP Corp A roflstomped RP Corp B and saw nothing wrong with it OOC, I must conclude one of two things.  Either the leadership of RP Corp A genuinely fails to understand that using excessive force robs RP Corp B of their entertainment value or that they are assholes.  There is a gradient here.  Large, powerful, and experienced organizations should be expected to defeat smaller, younger ones.  They can, however, do so without griefing the losing party.  It's called sportsmanship.

Good points Merdaneth.

This is a good discussion to have.

There are a ton of different opinions as to what constitutes 'sportsmanship,' especially for an internet computer game.  Especially in a sandbox, emergent gameplay internet computer game with no set teams or win conditions. 

Especially considering the different emotional value some of us place on seeing our internet pixels change color and explode.

The more 'rule setting' I've come across between RPers, the more upset people become for presumed affronts or 'cheating' etc and undesired outcomes.  It's an extremely gray and nebulous and anger-filled topic that hasn't gone away.


For RPers I think it's generally a good idea to scale the level of stakes depending on participant age and resources, so younger players can have a more rewarding experience.

Conversely the older you are, the less we should be worried about you losing your in-game stuff or a place to hang your coat safely.  If you are a couple-year vet I'm generally going to try and kill your grandmother and I'm going to assume you have a contract out on mine.

I've had good and bad examples of 'pre-made' RP PVP rules.   


Mathra's aborted arc with our 'point limit' skirmishes is a good example of pre-made pvp limits still leading to unintended consequences. My point being is -REALLY- hard to set up 'fair' and 'fun' with eve gameplay ahead of time.


 

[Silas Vitalia]

Tiberius is also a class-act with just this sort of thing.

We shoots each other now and then and then shoots other people together.

[Tiberious Thessalonia]

To be fair, that was an unusual situation, and planned out beforehand.  99% of the time if I see you in space I will shoot you or at least let other people know you are there so as to shoot at you.

(Im pretty sure I couldnt take Silas in a 1v1)

[Jev North]

The problem with the "give no quarter, grind them into the dust, destroy their will to fight" kind of conflict is that said will to fight happens to be mostly between the players' ears.

[Silas Vitalia]

To be fair, that was an unusual situation, and planned out beforehand.  99% of the time if I see you in space I will shoot you or at least let other people know you are there so as to shoot at you.

(Im pretty sure I couldnt take Silas in a 1v1)

Anyone can take anyone on any given day with the right fitting permutations.

Merdaneth has handed my ass to me on several occasions with off the wall fits before they became popular

"WTF I'm dead?! I barely scratched him!"

[Tiberious Thessalonia]

Yes, but see, Merdaneth is actually good at PvP, where I am just very good at following orders and am okay with that.

90% of my solo kills are of cyno frigates.

[Silas Vitalia]

Yes, but see, Merdaneth is actually good at PvP, where I am just very good at following orders and am okay with that.

90% of my solo kills are of cyno frigates.

Following orders and everyone shooting at the same person will take you places in EVE

[Louella Dougans]

the minimum 50m isk wardec fee may also have an effect, particularly on smaller groups.

[Esna Pitoojee]

Merdaneth comments on something that I've run up against often as well: While an attempt to PvP at an IC enemy would often result in them docking up (or returning with a blob), interacting with them by text actually results in progress in our (hostile) relationship.

I struggle with this because, for me, talking directly and constructively to someone that my character thinks is worth shooting at and killing knocks a little too loudly on the 4th wall.

I didn't say talking nicely to them.

This could mean suborning one of their members to spy for you. It could mean finding out who they work with and putting IC pressure on them. It could mean publicly spreading propoganda (truth or lies) about their organization.

I was actually thinking about a situation in which all attempts to PvP-engage an enemy RP corp came to naught; however, through the use of "text RP", Esna was able to get hard evidence of their dirty dealings and use this to place pressure on those who might otherwise sympathise with his target.

[Ken]

I think this is fairly easy, actually.  If you get the sense that an opponent is not having fun (through either direct or indirect communication) and you continue to attempt to "kill their grandmother" or whatever, that is unsportsmanlike AKA being an asshole.  Silas is certainly right in that the point-of-no-more-fun is subjective and different for all of us.  Some folks may lose one expensive ship or pod and be ready to throw in the towel.  Others may happily reship again and again for more combat until their wallets run dry. 

As roleplayers, I think it does us all a great service if we act with our opponent's OOC interests in mind when fighting one another IC and, as Silas said, scale the stakes to match the participants.  In my example of the WHG-Anshar conflict, we do this very informally.  Nothing is pre-arranged.  We simply let the other group know that we're going out and where they might find us.  For RP corps living close to one another, this may be all you need to get more RP-on-RP combat started.

I disagree that we should accept the only viable goal of a conflict between immortals being the destruction of the opponents' will to fight.  While logical, this translates very poorly into the realty of playing EVE.  Specifically, the people who (role)play these immortal characters are mortal, have limited time on their hands, and ultimately play the game for entertainment.  Curb stomping them into a failure cascade and pretending it's justified because that's the only way capsuleers would be able to defeat each other is crap.  It's perfectly viable within the rules of the EVE sandbox, but it's awfully bad manners.

I didn't say talking nicely to them.

This could mean suborning one of their members to spy for you. It could mean finding out who they work with and putting IC pressure on them. It could mean publicly spreading propoganda (truth or lies) about their organization.

I was actually thinking about a situation in which all attempts to PvP-engage an enemy RP corp came to naught; however, through the use of "text RP", Esna was able to get hard evidence of their dirty dealings and use this to place pressure on those who might otherwise sympathise with his target.

Ah, ok.  Misunderstood then.  Yea, +1 to all that.

[Hamish Grayson]

The New Eden cluster is a huge place and while the loud mouths of the IGS may have been a personal irritant  to Hamish - in a list of the most threatening to least threatening entities to Caldari State and Caldari Culture there are literally thousands of other things/people/groups before them.    Opportunity cost applies in target selection too.

[Logan Fyreite]

That said, the best way to get our attention is to start smashing Ishukone assets and brag about it. John will take notice of that.

Noted and added to to-do list. Would love to smash face with you Ired peeps more often.

1. you're active in our TZ, most times
2. We're active in yours
3. I'm the only active RPer in my alliance (damn)

Ah well, maybe next time Miss Oniseki  I guess we already shoot at each other pretty actively. You guys could just do a better job of it IC =P

[Matariki Rain]

I've heard of these arranged play wars, where you didn't roam on Mondays so both sides could mine, and you didn't take battleships, and you didn't respond with more than was brought against you. I've also heard of the issues with them: having to stand some keen pilots down to maintain the appropriate balance, and the apparently-inevitable situation where each side came to think the other side wasn't playing fair when the "teams" got out of whack.

That is not the game I play when I play EVE. If you want "nice" training exercises make arrangements with your friends. Otherwise use one of the very many ways of whipping your people into shape with real live-fire work. That's much more likely to teach them the things they need to know about real combat.

My inner immersionist needed to get that out.

[Merdaneth]

I've heard of these arranged play wars, where you didn't roam on Mondays so both sides could mine, and you didn't take battleships, and you didn't respond with more than was brought against you. I've also heard of the issues with them: having to stand some keen pilots down to maintain the appropriate balance, and the apparently-inevitable situation where each side came to think the other side wasn't playing fair when the "teams" got out of whack.

I'm weird in that way. I always ask pilots to stand down, or rather refuse new ones in fleet if we are going to outmatch the hostiles. Clearly outmatching the hostiles is the best way of not getting any fight.

This goes for immersionists too. They can also see that if you bring twice the number, you will likely only be chasing them around fruitlessly. If that is your goal, fine, but in my eyes, having a fleet of twice the amount of pilots chasing around a fleet half their number will mean the opportunity cost for the chase fleet is twice as high, so you are actually losing isk. Unless you have something specific to defend (which you usually don't have), it is disadvantageous to do so.

The best way to strike at the enemy's morale and their wallet is meet them with a roughly equal fleet and beat them. (additionally, this is likely good for OOC morale for both parties to)

[Matariki Rain]

I'm weird in that way. I always ask pilots to stand down, or rather refuse new ones in fleet if we are going to outmatch the hostiles. Clearly outmatching the hostiles is the best way of not getting any fight.

Merd, that's where you split your force and bait with enough of it to look tempting.

This goes for immersionists too. They can also see that if you bring twice the number, you will likely only be chasing them around fruitlessly. If that is your goal, fine, but in my eyes, having a fleet of twice the amount of pilots chasing around a fleet half their number will mean the opportunity cost for the chase fleet is twice as high, so you are actually losing isk. Unless you have something specific to defend (which you usually don't have), it is disadvantageous to do so.

I don't do much combat these days myself, but my corp very definitely does. When I'm in space with them I expect to have something specific to attack, defend, hunt, scare off or disrupt. If you don't have that, I suggest looking to your corp or alliance strategy and making sure it includes things you can do that align with real in-game actions.

The best way to strike at the enemy's morale and their wallet is meet them with a roughly equal fleet and beat them. (additionally, this is likely good for OOC morale for both parties to)

I hadn't realised what a fundamental difference in approach we have. That's useful to know, although it does limit our ability to interact.