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Author Topic: RP PvP Corps.  (Read 12847 times)

Ken

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Re: RP PvP Corps.
« Reply #45 on: 27 Aug 2012, 17:33 »

I've heard of these arranged play wars, where you didn't roam on Mondays so both sides could mine, and you didn't take battleships, and you didn't respond with more than was brought against you. I've also heard of the issues with them: having to stand some keen pilots down to maintain the appropriate balance, and the apparently-inevitable situation where each side came to think the other side wasn't playing fair when the "teams" got out of whack.

That is not the game I play when I play EVE. If you want "nice" training exercises make arrangements with your friends. Otherwise use one of the very many ways of whipping your people into shape with real live-fire work. That's much more likely to teach them the things they need to know about real combat.

My inner immersionist needed to get that out.

I don't have experience with "play wars" of the sort you describe, but I can imagine asking any willing participant to remain in station while the rest of you go looking for a fight would be deleterious to morale. 

Let me reinforce that when I'm talking about striking a sportsmanlike attitude with another RP group for PVP, I'm not talking about setting up a tidy schedule of pre-planned fights a la the tournament or doing anything that would artificially break IC logic.  I am talking about both sides respecting one another as players and acting in a way that encourages fun-having in order to enrich and continue IC interaction and PVP without either party growing to resent the other OOC.

Clearly outmatching the hostiles is the best way of not getting any fight.

In agreement with this.

I'm weird in that way. I always ask pilots to stand down, or rather refuse new ones in fleet if we are going to outmatch the hostiles. Clearly outmatching the hostiles is the best way of not getting any fight.

Merd, that's where you split your force and bait with enough of it to look tempting.

By making your force appear matched or weak compared to an opponent's, you goad him into engaging before springing the trap.  Fwiw I think you've defended the logic of Merd's point, but I personally agree with your way of handling it (bait and switch) versus just leaving forces at home.
« Last Edit: 27 Aug 2012, 17:39 by Ken »
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Saede Riordan

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Re: RP PvP Corps.
« Reply #46 on: 27 Aug 2012, 17:46 »

the attitude I've taken with things is to fight all out and expect my opponents to do the same. This is made easier when there is a 'reason' either ICly or mechanically to go after someone "so and so is harbouring slaves" or "so and so is performing dangerous research" or "So and so is encroaching on our turf"

I think that the problem is that people try to PvP as an ends. PvP should really just be a means to an ends. If your goal is PvP, as counter-intuitive as it sounds, you should make your goal something other then pvp, but that pursuing would produce PvP as a natural side effect of trying to achieve that goal.

For example: Amarrian corporation sets up secret pos in minmatar highsec, launches 'slave raids' to nearby minmatar worlds and boasts about it on the IGS, this spurs anti-slaver groups to try and find and destroy the pos and rescue the slaves, and also gives the slavers something to do in their attempts to defend the pos. There is a clear victory condition besides breaking the enemy's will to fight, which means both groups can come back again to fight another day.
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DeadRow

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Re: RP PvP Corps.
« Reply #47 on: 27 Aug 2012, 17:48 »

Cause in this story, man, we're the dragon.  Dragon doesn't go hunt down the hobbits, the hobbits come to the dragon and beat him up and take his treasure.

SMAUG4LYF

lol right.

I think it's also that RP corps are generally so spread out across the cluster it isn't that often you bump into them, unless both corporations are in lolFW that is. At least that's what it feels like to me. I've only bumped into WHG semi-regularly in and around Black Rise with ANSH. Related to Tibs' comment also; Maybe many corps thing they are this 'dragon' and think they enemy should come to them rather than the other way round.
 
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Ken

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Re: RP PvP Corps.
« Reply #48 on: 27 Aug 2012, 18:05 »

Cause in this story, man, we're the dragon.  Dragon doesn't go hunt down the hobbits, the hobbits come to the dragon and beat him up and take his treasure.

SMAUG4LYF

lol right.

I think it's also that RP corps are generally so spread out across the cluster it isn't that often you bump into them, unless both corporations are in lolFW that is. At least that's what it feels like to me. I've only bumped into WHG semi-regularly in and around Black Rise with ANSH. Related to Tibs' comment also; Maybe many corps thing they are this 'dragon' and think they enemy should come to them rather than the other way round.

Thing with this particular dragon is that it awoke about 18 months ago.  Incursions are hot.  Sitting and waiting is not.
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Milo Caman

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Re: RP PvP Corps.
« Reply #49 on: 27 Aug 2012, 18:55 »

Let me reinforce that when I'm talking about striking a sportsmanlike attitude with another RP group for PVP, I'm not talking about setting up a tidy schedule of pre-planned fights a la the tournament or doing anything that would artificially break IC logic.  I am talking about both sides respecting one another as players and acting in a way that encourages fun-having in order to enrich and continue IC interaction and PVP without either party growing to resent the other OOC.

Example: When someone in ANSH scouts a WHG frigate gang, we don't reach for the NanoHACs, Thrashers and Antifrigate cruisers. We pick up a frigate fleet that will get us a good fight over a curbstomp.

Sure, both sides have escalated fights, but not, as I can recall, to the point of trashing the other side so utterly that people come out feeling bitter. Most of our engagements with WHG have involved both sides trying to get the jump on one another simultaneously, and it tends to result in a lot of careful timing and buildup before a fight where there's actually time to call targets before everything blows up.
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Merdaneth

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Re: RP PvP Corps.
« Reply #50 on: 27 Aug 2012, 19:31 »

I'm weird in that way. I always ask pilots to stand down, or rather refuse new ones in fleet if we are going to outmatch the hostiles. Clearly outmatching the hostiles is the best way of not getting any fight.

Merd, that's where you split your force and bait with enough of it to look tempting.


Gets old fast. Very fast. Nothing works better to discourage fights than a couple of Titan bridged hotdrops and the like. Do it once, you'll get away with it, do it twice, and I'll be assuming reinforcements and we're back to non-engagements (or the classic no-risk engagements). Especially if you bring*overpowering* reinforcements, which is usually the case with those who often use the bait and switch method.

The number of times that someone has done a succesfull bait and switch on me over the last two years I can count on one hand.

Some things are more fun when you're a PvP noob, you''ll get surprised a lot more :)

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Merdaneth

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Re: RP PvP Corps.
« Reply #51 on: 27 Aug 2012, 19:40 »

By making your force appear matched or weak compared to an opponent's, you goad him into engaging before springing the trap.  Fwiw I think you've defended the logic of Merd's point, but I personally agree with your way of handling it (bait and switch) versus just leaving forces at home.

Well, look at it this way. My bait and switch includes the switch within the bait. This causes a situation where both parties want to engage. That's ideal for me.

Also, it causes me to rarely have trouble with people accusing me of unsportsmanlike behaviour, since I have rarely have a (surprise) backup fleet up my sleeves. What you saw is what you wanted and what you got. You just underestimated what you saw.
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Ulphus

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Re: RP PvP Corps.
« Reply #52 on: 27 Aug 2012, 19:41 »

Gets old fast. Very fast. Nothing works better to discourage fights than a couple of Titan bridged hotdrops and the like.

Agreed, there's been PVP corps running around Matari lowsec trying to pick fights where I oversaw several different fleets tell them "Not interested, because you'll just titan bridge a fleet onto us. Bored already."

That's different from having a bait fleet with backup a couple of jumps away that will try to move in conventionally, in a way that could be scouted.

In fact, one of the things I hated about hot-drops is the difficulty in scouting them. If you're in a fleet keeping scouts out, then you get some warning about incoming conventional reinforcements, or potentially you spot them first and can avoid them. It meant that scouting was important and useful.

Hotdrops are difficult to scout, and thus difficult to adjust to except to run around in smaller stuff and bail as soon as a cyno goes up. They also degrade the usefulness in having scouts instead of just more firepower.
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Silas Vitalia

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Re: RP PvP Corps.
« Reply #53 on: 27 Aug 2012, 19:47 »

Gets old fast. Very fast. Nothing works better to discourage fights than a couple of Titan bridged hotdrops and the like.

Agreed, there's been PVP corps running around Matari lowsec trying to pick fights where I oversaw several different fleets tell them "Not interested, because you'll just titan bridge a fleet onto us. Bored already."

That's different from having a bait fleet with backup a couple of jumps away that will try to move in conventionally, in a way that could be scouted.

In fact, one of the things I hated about hot-drops is the difficulty in scouting them. If you're in a fleet keeping scouts out, then you get some warning about incoming conventional reinforcements, or potentially you spot them first and can avoid them. It meant that scouting was important and useful.

Hotdrops are difficult to scout, and thus difficult to adjust to except to run around in smaller stuff and bail as soon as a cyno goes up. They also degrade the usefulness in having scouts instead of just more firepower.

This goes back to our standard discussion of gameplay design fail with regards to bridging, cyno spooling, and the like. 

So long as the devs are hesitant to put hard gameplay brakes on certain types of play these issues will not go away.

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Ken

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Re: RP PvP Corps.
« Reply #54 on: 27 Aug 2012, 19:55 »

By making your force appear matched or weak compared to an opponent's, you goad him into engaging before springing the trap.  Fwiw I think you've defended the logic of Merd's point, but I personally agree with your way of handling it (bait and switch) versus just leaving forces at home.

Well, look at it this way. My bait and switch includes the switch within the bait. This causes a situation where both parties want to engage. That's ideal for me.

Also, it causes me to rarely have trouble with people accusing me of unsportsmanlike behaviour, since I have rarely have a (surprise) backup fleet up my sleeves. What you saw is what you wanted and what you got. You just underestimated what you saw.

Ok, I understand.  Suppose I sympathized with Mata's point about preferring not to leave pilots behind in the name of bringing a more attackable fleet.
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Saede Riordan

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Re: RP PvP Corps.
« Reply #55 on: 27 Aug 2012, 20:01 »

By making your force appear matched or weak compared to an opponent's, you goad him into engaging before springing the trap.  Fwiw I think you've defended the logic of Merd's point, but I personally agree with your way of handling it (bait and switch) versus just leaving forces at home.

Well, look at it this way. My bait and switch includes the switch within the bait. This causes a situation where both parties want to engage. That's ideal for me.

Also, it causes me to rarely have trouble with people accusing me of unsportsmanlike behaviour, since I have rarely have a (surprise) backup fleet up my sleeves. What you saw is what you wanted and what you got. You just underestimated what you saw.

Ok, I understand.  Suppose I sympathized with Mata's point about preferring not to leave pilots behind in the name of bringing a more attackable fleet.

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Merdaneth

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Re: RP PvP Corps.
« Reply #56 on: 27 Aug 2012, 20:03 »

For example: Amarrian corporation sets up secret pos in minmatar highsec, launches 'slave raids' to nearby minmatar worlds and boasts about it on the IGS, this spurs anti-slaver groups to try and find and destroy the pos and rescue the slaves, and also gives the slavers something to do in their attempts to defend the pos. There is a clear victory condition besides breaking the enemy's will to fight, which means both groups can come back again to fight another day.

Of course, this would be absolutely wonderful! However, most people rarely make themselves vulnerable willingly.

I've visibly and publicly setup myself as target in the past by announcing certain actions or operations in advance on the IGS (which is incidentally stupid to do before you've concluded operations), but haven't really had any takers yet (other than people wanting to help me :).

I could launch slave raids out of Minmatar highsec all day long, and ship the raided slaves back towards Amarr without effective opposition if I go about it with a bit of smarts. However, I don't even do slave raids. :)

Ushra Khan did a fun thing once by attacking convoys in Amarr. That was a nice touch. But that only worked if they went about it stupidly. Once people start warping around in alpha ships, and simply warping to the next convoy target if the first target seems somehow risky, tnen you'll be twiddling thumbs again as defender. And of course, you'll get the boast on the IGS how the Amarr are helpless to defend their convoys in high-sec. Sigh....

I've been around. People have vulnerable stuff protected in alt/npc corps and people are told to haul stuff with alts or contract it out in times of war. Most players try to minimize risk, and there are a lot of ways to do it.
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Esna Pitoojee

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Re: RP PvP Corps.
« Reply #57 on: 27 Aug 2012, 20:23 »

I think that the problem is that people try to PvP as an ends. PvP should really just be a means to an ends. If your goal is PvP, as counter-intuitive as it sounds, you should make your goal something other then pvp, but that pursuing would produce PvP as a natural side effect of trying to achieve that goal.

Merdaneth's post above highlights some of the reasons that I find that this to be difficult. A properly coordinated and well-kept-secret campaign can achieve its goal with a minimum of interference, which while completing the nominal objective isn't very PvP generating. Conversely, it can be even more un-fun to be a defender trying to fight off an opponent who is trying to do everything but fight.


Quote
For example: Amarrian corporation sets up secret pos in minmatar highsec, launches 'slave raids' to nearby minmatar worlds and boasts about it on the IGS, this spurs anti-slaver groups to try and find and destroy the pos and rescue the slaves, and also gives the slavers something to do in their attempts to defend the pos. There is a clear victory condition besides breaking the enemy's will to fight, which means both groups can come back again to fight another day.

Touches on another issue I've heard of - the fact that many of these "RPvP" hooks will result in a far larger force attacking you than you can defend against. In the above example, for instance, the person doing the "hook" could expect to be attacked not only by Minmatar defenders, but Amarr upset about someone breaking the Empire's law.
« Last Edit: 27 Aug 2012, 20:25 by Esna Pitoojee »
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Matariki Rain

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Re: RP PvP Corps.
« Reply #58 on: 27 Aug 2012, 20:26 »

I think that the problem is that people try to PvP as an ends. PvP should really just be a means to an ends. If your goal is PvP, as counter-intuitive as it sounds, you should make your goal something other then pvp, but that pursuing would produce PvP as a natural side effect of trying to achieve that goal.

This.

There are various ways to do it. They attract different sorts of people, and have their own typical types of internal conflict.

EM's approach to this is well known (I think?) and seems pretty tested: loyalty to (the underlying needs of) a faction (as we interpret them) which has live targets AND active vigilante policing of piracy within a particular area. When one area is quiet you focus on the other. Your internal hawks and doves sometimes slog it out, as do your want-my-fights-NOW types and your taking-the-long-view types. There's the occasional framing issue when a member or ally gets upset at you prioritising political crimes (which are mostly made-up crimes about slavery) over capsuleer crimes (which are where players are jerks to other real people).

When I (player) was with Rote Kapelle and throwing ideas at how we could frame what was, essentially, a desire for "All PvP; all the time" we touched base with Rote's rich (and sadly neglected) background as a hardline transhumanist breakaway group with strands of ethical egoism and anarchist illegalism. It's about cultivating strength, excellence and joy through competition, and applying selective pressure to other capsuleers who might therefore grow into their transhumanist nature. That's the nearest I've seen to an RP framework to wrap around PvP-for-its-own-sake. While it has the potential for RP, in reality it's been more of an RP-very-lite nostalgia thing, with newer pilots not having an interest in RP.

Let me reinforce that when I'm talking about striking a sportsmanlike attitude with another RP group for PVP, I'm not talking about setting up a tidy schedule of pre-planned fights a la the tournament or doing anything that would artificially break IC logic.  I am talking about both sides respecting one another as players and acting in a way that encourages fun-having in order to enrich and continue IC interaction and PVP without either party growing to resent the other OOC.

I don't think it needs to be said, but do also PvP against the many non-RP groups around you. You'll end up with some "usual suspects", and may even develop RP or semi-RP hunter relationships with them which can be a lot of fun. But... have a hard think about why you fight, what you want from it, and what it means IC for you. There are ways to make the pursuit of ~goodfights~ make sense, but they require thought above and beyond normal framing. We have some relationships where we're essentially trying to stop some people from pirating too much in our neighbourhood, but we're pretty sure they'd help defend it if the second Day of Darkness came. Those are quite different from the people who simply need to be made to see the error of their ways and be somewhere else, or doing something else, whatever tools in the EVE diplomacy toolkit that takes.


And Merd, I was thinking in terms of sub-cap split-and-bait, but yeah, our version of that was that PL's tendency to hotdrop when bored in Amamake did kinda suck. It was a real in-game thing, though, and a reminder that even in the Republic we weren't immune to what was going on in null throughout the cluster. For us the main strategy was to warn people, work around the hazard, and wait it out.


(Also, to be frank, if we manage to evacuate Sahtogas Mata wouldn't particularly object to using FW simply as live-fire training from then on. We don't "believe" idealistically the way some people seem to think we should, but we have our reasons in the Long Game for what we do.)
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Saede Riordan

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Re: RP PvP Corps.
« Reply #59 on: 27 Aug 2012, 20:32 »

I've been trying to plan out some RPvP hooks and the attitude I've taken is to go in with the intention of losing and fleeing to fight again like a Saturday morning cartoon villain. The other issue is that it seems like people have gotten so used to things like that not happening mechanically, that they assume when someone boasts about taking slaves or somesuch, its in a way they can't mechanically do anything about. There's been too many people who are a lot of talk.

I think it might be a good idea though to come up with a bunch of varyingly difficult to execute RPvP hooks that a bunch of different corps could start adding in, and if we sort of as a whole make a conscious effort to try and do stuff like that, we could probably do a lot of good for RP as a whole, and probably pull in a bunch more people. It'd sorta be set up something akin to player live events if managed properly.
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