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[Tiberious Thessalonia]

Please come shoot at us.

Maybe we'll try it again when we have more active pilots

Man, Mitty was so pissed when Tiberious joined TS-F, unfortunately didn't have much manpower to throw at you guys

We were so fucking excited when we got decced by you.. and then Mitty was the only one we saw in space, and it became several months of us sending our noobs to camp some of your guys in stations while we  ran mining ops.  We were sad.

[Merdaneth]

I struggle with this because, for me, talking directly and constructively to someone that my character thinks is worth shooting at and killing knocks a little too loudly on the 4th wall.

Actually exactly opposite for me. Trying to kill someone who is immortal is rather dense. Best thing you can do is inflict inconvenience or monetary loss. If your inconvenience or the opportunity cost of trying to kill him is higher than your target's monetary loss, no real sense in trying to kill him.

It's like waiting all day outside someone else's appartment so that when he finally comes out to play you have a chance to tip over his box of crayons and go 'there you bad man, got you!'

However, an immortal that switches allegiance, that is a worthy investment of your time.

My sadness is that while many capsuleers do switch sides (and often too), major motivations for doing so seem to be based in OOC concerns. And you cannot out-RP OOC motivations.

[Lyn Farel]

Possible reasons in my opinion :

1) As said above, might come sometimes from the fear of losing face on the IGS after a defeat. However, I do not think it is the majority of the cases, far from it. Even if some people may miss that point, as Silas said above, there is much more to gain from standing and fight instead of actually avoiding the fight. In a testosterone ruled world like Eve, trying to avoid a fight is being a pussy. Pussies are usually despised, even ICly. Losing on the other hand, can cause a lot various consequences, support or delusions from supporters, giving the enemy an edge IC or actually providing them a lot more unexpected enemies if you manage to turn yourself into martyrdom, etc.

2) As said above, which happens much more often, technical issues : either timezone problems, and/or just regional issues where the enemy is actually located at the other end of New Eden, which can cause a various amount of problems for some entities that are not very nomadic in nature or have a lot of assets to move depending on the scale.

3) What happens most of the time in people's head imo : the fear of the possible OOC/IC bleedovers and dramas that happen in a lot of wars. A war is not just shooting happily at each other. Eve implies material losses. A war in Eve implies consequences on morale, internal cohesion and synergy (<- not everybody can summon business cat to prevent that issue from arising), and more usually general OOC drama between RPers that get to know each other through other medias like The Summit or other RP related channels.

[Tiberious Thessalonia]

Please come shoot at us.  I promise we wont hate you OOC.  Most of my best friends in this game have little red squares next to their names. \o/

[Jev North]

Please come shoot at us.  I promise we wont hate you OOC.  Most of my best friends in this game have little red squares next to their names. \o/

I've barely met you
And this is crazy
But here's our jump coordinates
Come shoot us maybe?

[Lyn Farel]

Large, powerful, and experienced organizations should be expected to defeat smaller, younger ones.  They can, however, do so without griefing the losing party.  It's called sportsmanship.

And they can also lose to smaller, unexperienced ones. I learned that the hard way when we were leading Aegis Militia in Solitude. Worked perfectly as intended the first week, and then our newest members started to come and got beaten repeatedly (between noobs... happy world) while our oldest members were suddenly all "away" for some reason, even if we were still 5 to 10 times bigger than they were (alliance vs corp). The fact that we had to move from Providence to Solitude did not help.

I take that as a funny example because the RP corp we wardecced (which was a remnant of the old Acheron Federation) was more or less dying at the time and the roflstomp was actually expected. But the poorly managed campaign on our side made it for their members to actually undock and start to fight back happily. The consequence is that the target corp suddenly revived through that and started to be a major player in anti piracy policies in Solitude for quite a time before leaving for nullsec.

Of course I know that this counter example is part of exceptions and minorities of cases, but I thought interesting to share it, since it basically supports your view on that and made the engagement fairer for them.

My sadness is that while many capsuleers do switch sides (and often too), major motivations for doing so seem to be based in OOC concerns. And you cannot out-RP OOC motivations.

And when it can also be ICly motivated, most of them just go minmatar or piwate. 

Or Nation... dun dun dun

[Tiberious Thessalonia]

Except you Jev, I now hate you OOC.

I hate that song... 

[Merdaneth]

3) What happens most of the time in people's head imo : the fear of the possible OOC/IC bleedovers and dramas that happen in a lot of wars. A war is not just shooting happily at each other. Eve implies material losses. A war in Eve implies consequences on morale, internal cohesion and synergy (<- not everybody can summon business cat to prevent that issue from arising), and more usually general OOC drama between RPers that get to know each other through other medias like The Summit or other RP related channels.

Sportmanship plays a role in this as well.

In my PIE times the people from MAAK were by far the people with the best sportmanship. They switched ship types to match what we would have, and even avoided (largely) flying purely anti-Amarr fits (yeah, all Amarr ECM was a nightmare to fight against in an otherwise evenly matched fleet).

But Electus Matari pointed out to us that by playing as immersively as possible, they simple couldn't offer us real sportmanship. If they could take us out without risking any losses on their part, they would try to do so. They would take risks if IC concerns (defending the Republic) warranted it, but not otherwise.

Star Fraction where simply out to crush their opponents ship-wise as well as morale-wise. It was war, and sportmanship didn't have much a role in it.

But I've had plenty of wars were I simply never or rarely seen the enemy. Use three locator agents, jump 30 systems after your target and then find out you have a ship mismatch and one of the parties won't commit because the outcome is clear in advance.

Sportmanship aside. What I miss most is actual achievable meaningful goals in conflict. Goals that feel nice IC and you can actually make progress towards. Goals that allow all parties in the conflict to have fun.

[ArtOfLight]

Please come shoot at us.  I promise we wont hate you OOC.  Most of my best friends in this game have little red squares next to their names. \o/

I've barely met you
And this is crazy
But here's our jump coordinates
Come shoot us maybe?

As clever as this was....

[Kybernetes Moros]

The losing side loses credit and 'public face'.

However losing IC to other RPers causes many ooc tears due to the public crowing they will be on the receiving end of, and some supposed loss of "status."

1) As said above, might come sometimes from the fear of losing face on the IGS after a defeat.

I... really don't understand this. Most in-space fights will have a clear-cut winner and loser, and it's in the interest of each side to discredit their opponents -- or, as Merdaneth said, sway those same opponents away from the cause. Why should the loss of IC face be a big deal? You lost a fight, and your enemy exploited that; wahey. Learn from it, either make a cogent counterargument or get back in your ships and hit them back harder, IMO.

EVE advertises itself as a conflict-based game. While I don't think the IGS is a great medium for it, trying to make your opponents look bad happens there because that's a natural part of having an enemy.

My experience with the fusion of RP/PVP is limited to the last several months, but fwiw, I think the biggest challenge to engaging in RPer-on-RPer PVP is proximity...

2) As said above, which happens much more often, technical issues [...] just regional issues where the enemy is actually located at the other end of New Eden, which can cause a various amount of problems for some entities that are not very nomadic in nature or have a lot of assets to move depending on the scale.

The time zone issue mentioned along this I can understand and there's little to be done about that; it's negatively impacted my own RP, but such is life. The question of proximity is something I don't feel should always stand in the way, but that might be a function of me being more of an RPer than a PvPer.

Sometimes, it doesn't make any sense to go to a different constellation, region, or whatever, and that's fair enough. In the case of those a corporation finds especially odious, though, it's not unreasonable to go and move away for a bit to try and smack them down, whether that be because they're harming the supported faction directly or are just doing things that the corporation feels shouldn't at all be done.

Please come shoot at us.

I've seen this kind of thing a lot, from different people. My counter would be "Why not go and shoot them?".

[Kybernetes Moros]

Fucksake. Quote is not edit, and I don't know how to delete.

[Tiberious Thessalonia]

Cause in this story, man, we're the dragon.  Dragon doesn't go hunt down the hobbits, the hobbits come to the dragon and beat him up and take his treasure.

SMAUG4LYF

[Saede Riordan]

Please come shoot at us.  I promise we wont hate you OOC.  Most of my best friends in this game have little red squares next to their names. \o/

THIS THIS THIS

Come shoot at us, we like it.

[Lyn Farel]

In my PIE times the people from MAAK were by far the people with the best sportmanship. They switched ship types to match what we would have, and even avoided (largely) flying purely anti-Amarr fits (yeah, all Amarr ECM was a nightmare to fight against in an otherwise evenly matched fleet).

But Electus Matari pointed out to us that by playing as immersively as possible, they simple couldn't offer us real sportmanship. If they could take us out without risking any losses on their part, they would try to do so. They would take risks if IC concerns (defending the Republic) warranted it, but not otherwise.

Star Fraction where simply out to crush their opponents ship-wise as well as morale-wise. It was war, and sportmanship didn't have much a role in it.

But I've had plenty of wars were I simply never or rarely seen the enemy. Use three locator agents, jump 30 systems after your target and then find out you have a ship mismatch and one of the parties won't commit because the outcome is clear in advance.

Sportmanship aside. What I miss most is actual achievable meaningful goals in conflict. Goals that feel nice IC and you can actually make progress towards. Goals that allow all parties in the conflict to have fun.

I used to know a lot of MAAK people quite well (since they were all RL froggies like me) and MAAK was probably closer to what I would call "RP light". They were less focused on their characters or in IC interactions than most of us here. What mattered most for them was the IC policies of their corp, the image/atmosphere of their corp, and the pvp evenings they could get out of it.

It is slightly different from other views on RP, more serious, like for example believing that OOC restraining, sportmanship, or just overall artificial OOC agreements or talks feel unatural.

Both views have their strenghts and their cons, unfortunately.

Fucksake. Quote is not edit, and I don't know how to delete.

You can't

[Khloe]

Don't wake the dragon!

It's rather amusing that I look at this, because it reminds me of The Star Fraction's troubles with starting wars with big nationalist pvp alliances and getting all sorts of shit about it because their goal was (or seemed) to make sure the entity was destroyed (ie. everyone left the corporation). Everyone told them to go fight some 0.0 alliance if they wanted a challenge. At the time, I found the act rather distasteful as it made lots of tears and angst on the forums, but looking back it wasn't a terrible idea. Ideological wars between immortals is somewhat of an obsolete concept unless you're somehow preventing them from doing something, like gathering resources or building bases, but otherwise it's just an endless loop of murder. I mean, it's not to say you can't have a fun, gentlemanly bout of pvp, but it strikes me that RPers would stand to gain more if the fight actually meant something.

Mind you, this is my personal opinion...I'm not trying to criticize anyone's behavior or reopen old wounds, but as an admirer of political intrigue and random solo pvp I find these things fascinating.