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That CCP financed the initial development of EVE Online by publishing a board game called Hættuspil ("Danger Game")?

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Author Topic: Gender in New Eden  (Read 14901 times)

Makkal

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Re: Gender in New Eden
« Reply #15 on: 26 Jun 2012, 23:52 »

If you believe that the different races in EVE have overt gender roles and quirks or that the character creator is a good indicator for/against these or present any kind of evidence then you have been missing a lot of clues. I might get back ot this later when not supposed to be sleeping if it has not been covered in great detail until then.
I await your wisdom with bated breath.

And I'm still not sure if this addresses the initial question, which seemed to have a blend of "How do we construct gender?" and "Huh, CCP kinda gave some us some odd gender choices which can easily play to sexualised gamer stereotypes, didn't they?".

A Matari character said two things:
1. You have breasts and a vagina, which is why you think you're a woman.
2. I know you're a woman because you wear make-up and have long hair.

Are these generally held ideas within the Minmatar cultures?
« Last Edit: 27 Jun 2012, 04:12 by Makkal »
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Malcolm Khross

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Re: Gender in New Eden
« Reply #16 on: 27 Jun 2012, 05:09 »

Gender and the empires: I presume less gender equality in the ones with more focus on "traditional" values: ethnic Gallentean culture most-enlightened; Caldari and Minmatar fighting for the mid-ranks; Amarrian conservatives bringing up the rear.

I would have to disagree slightly. Caldari have absolutely no consideration for gender when it comes to rights, social standing and income. They don't concern themselves at all with superficial things like gender and appearance, it's about merit and capability with an emphasis on what can be provided for the whole not what the individual is. This viewpoint is also represented in "Views of the Caldari" and I believe I read it somewhere in PF as well.

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Lyn Farel

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Re: Gender in New Eden
« Reply #17 on: 27 Jun 2012, 08:36 »

I think the Amarr must be considered as the most conservative on that precise point, but to me that would be like a doubled edged sword. With their very feudal society I bet their dynasties and families would be completely based on a full gender predominance over said family lineage. Put a male as the head of the family, and the woman will only be seen as the housewife (even if with all the social positions and responsibilities it will give her), but put up a matrilineal marriage and I am pretty sure that the roles will be switched and the female will become the allmighty ruler here.

To me it sounds more like a society where the roles of each gender is subject to extremes.
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Malcolm Khross

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Re: Gender in New Eden
« Reply #18 on: 27 Jun 2012, 08:42 »

I agree to some extent, Lyn.

But it's also PF that Amarrian women are fiercely protective of their family name and heritage, very matronly (even matriarchal to that regard) while the males are more about conducting business and being the spiritual head of the house.

It seems like the Amarr are definitely a society with very defined gender roles akin to lords and ladies of the court in medieval times.
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Louella Dougans

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Re: Gender in New Eden
« Reply #19 on: 27 Jun 2012, 12:35 »

one of the amarr cosmos missions makes mention of a Lord being succeeded not by his eldest son, but by his eldest daughter. This is apparently uncommon.

But that is Kador region. Kador is fairly traditional.

Other places in Amarr are different of course. You have Catiz Tash-Murkon for example.
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Wanoah

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Re: Gender in New Eden
« Reply #20 on: 27 Jun 2012, 12:55 »

Feudal doesn't have to equate to patriarchal (even if most historical precedents in the real world have been patriarchal):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_cognatic_primogeniture#Absolute_cognatic_primogeniture

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Matariki Rain

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Re: Gender in New Eden
« Reply #21 on: 27 Jun 2012, 15:22 »

And I'm still not sure if this addresses the initial question, which seemed to have a blend of "How do we construct gender?" and "Huh, CCP kinda gave some us some odd gender choices which can easily play to sexualised gamer stereotypes, didn't they?".

A Matari character said two things:
1. You have breasts and a vagina, which is why you think you're a woman.
2. I know you're a woman because you wear make-up and have long hair.

Are these generally held ideas within the Minmatar cultures?

I can't speak for "the Minmatar cultures". I can speculate, though.

I expect that there are fundamental concepts of female and male. (For starters, they seem to have gendered pronouns relating to physical sex, which is usually a sign that sex is considered a basic categorisation of people. RL Finnish gender-neutral pronouns rock, by the way.)

I expect that the tribal definitions of female and male are related to the possession of primary sexual characteristics (genitals/apparent reproductive organs).

I expect that Minmatar cultures assume and are to some extent shaped around the old-fashioned biological reproduction which is the norm for most Matari. The ways they're shaped could vary greatly.

EVE-the-game puts quite a bit of emphasis on secondary sexual characteristics (breasts, shoulders, waist:hip ratios). I expect that there will be some variance in how Minmatar cultures consider, value and display these.

EVE-the-game puts quite a bit of emphasis on different social sexual characteristics, mostly designed to distinguish between sexes (different hairstyles, different cosmetic use, different shoes leading to different posture and presumably different gaits, coverage of female nipples but not male nipples). I expect there'd be a huge range of ways that Matari cultures handled these.

The chargen tools are such that, as a player, you can generally tell the assigned sex of a character. It's possible to play with this: CCP Seagull does a good example of an androgyne, for instance. If you want to play indeterminate gender, maybe try that and shrug at CONCORD's fuddy-duddy requirement that you tick one of their oh-so-limited sex options on the licence form.

Once you become a podder, I'd argue that all sex-and-gender stuff is optional. Some of us may stick with it because we come from clans with strong gender roles and we want to continue to relate to the clan in some semblance of a normal mode. For now--remembering that cloning pod pilots have been around only about a decade--there's still a legal/superstitious requirement that your meat bodies be shaped to look like the old biological "you", with arguments made that this helps you stay sane. "Realistically", I'd expect that to change over time, but whether it changes in-game will depend on what CCP's game designers think about players bonding with avatars.

But really? There's lots of potential for running with "That was my body then: I am no longer my body". There's also potential for others to glorify the enhanced physical aspects of pod experience and question whether someone slipped alcohol in your serum if you seem to be a perpetual misfit or grumpypants.
« Last Edit: 27 Jun 2012, 15:25 by Matariki Rain »
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Makkal

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Re: Gender in New Eden
« Reply #22 on: 27 Jun 2012, 17:28 »

Now that was a wonderful answer. +1 Like.
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Lyn Farel

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Re: Gender in New Eden
« Reply #23 on: 27 Jun 2012, 17:58 »

one of the amarr cosmos missions makes mention of a Lord being succeeded not by his eldest son, but by his eldest daughter. This is apparently uncommon.

But that is Kador region. Kador is fairly traditional.

Other places in Amarr are different of course. You have Catiz Tash-Murkon for example.

It can depends on a lot of things. I would bet too that most holder families across the whole Empire are ruled by the standard patriarchal agnatic-cognatic primogeniture succession law. I bet it would also be the case of some merchants and rich commoners that tend to evolve more or less close to holders and noble circles, and probably in most modest families too. Arranged marriages might also be common.

Anyway under that kind of succession law it can definitly happen for a family to have for example only daughters, or that all the sons have died. In that case daughters will inherit.

And then yes, I would bet that a lot of the most liberal families would have succession laws based on true-cognatic or even fairer laws based on separation of the family goods between all the sons (and daughters). But in that last case I doubt it would be pretty common for Holders at least, since it implies the separation of the family lands and properties.
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lallara zhuul

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Re: Gender in New Eden
« Reply #24 on: 28 Jun 2012, 01:39 »

This has been touched on this thread before but I would like to emphasize it.

Changing bodies and sex is not easy as changing your pants even if you are a capsuleer.

Your body is the means that you experience your life with, altering it will change your worldview immediately in very concrete ways, changing your sex will alter it in a very dramatic way which ,as said before, could lead to mental problems.

A whole new set of hormones will do your head in pretty fast, not to mention the fact that you have no idea how to move in the body that is structurally different (bone structure) and with quite different capabilities (the difference of muscle tissue). Another thing is that the brain is different for the different sexes.

Also the social aspects that are around sexuality hit you immediately.

Of course the infomorph training that is based on the Reborn deals with these kinds of things to an extent, but I think it gives you the knowledge how to deal with it, not the actual application part of it.

A Reborn has a lifetime to deal with things like this (plus a special social status) unlike a body jumping capsuleer.

Equality of the sexes?

State probably has some built in gender roles, just because male and female have different natural aptitudes, brainwise and bodywise. Which on a societal scale would mean that males have a tendency to dominate some areas of the society while some areas are dominated by females. Segregation by gender in the State does not exist, it is just there.

The Republic is probably closest to the State in this respect, only that the gender roles are celebrated and glorified through ancestor worship, teaching by storytelling, traditional rituals and various minor deities.

I would argue that the Federation and the Empire are very alike in their approach to gender roles.

It is just the motivation and the cause behind the gender roles is different.

In Federation all genders are equal in the eyes of the law.

In the Empire all genders are equal in the eyes of God.

I believe that the same evolutionary pull that is in the State and the Republic is present in the Federation and the Empire, it is just constantly being fought by the indoctrinating tools of the cultures.

While in the Federation you could come across propaganda akin to that of the WW2-era States/Soviet Union, in the Empire you would come across stories about canonized Saints that overcame their evolutionary tendencies and found glory in God. (I believe that the Minmatar and the Amarr use storytelling as a primary tool of cultural indoctrination.)
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Seriphyn

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Re: Gender in New Eden
« Reply #25 on: 28 Jun 2012, 05:44 »

Is there anything stopping ethnic Gallente culture(s) being matriarchal? The whole sexualization of women...for example, IRL, it can be said women sexualize themselves as a form of rebellion against the old guard of pre-1960s Christian morality. However, the Gallente never had anything like a Christian undertone to their society, and even if they did, it's been extinct for hundreds/thousands of years. Cultures are rarely decadent for the sake of it, I feel. There may be some far-back reaching reason for it. Might have something to do with the Caille goddess, for example.

Anyway, I too have always seen the Caldari genders as 'equal' but only because the genders are sort of asexualized, with little distinction between the two. On the other hand, the Gallente genders are 'equal' but are still distinct from one another. "Mars and Venus" thing as Matariki pointed out elsewhere.
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Louella Dougans

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Re: Gender in New Eden
« Reply #26 on: 28 Jun 2012, 12:44 »

Given what we know of Minmatar society--from the situation in the refugee camps to the fancy nightclubs for ritual sex--I also expect there's a reasonable amount of "father unknown" in certain sectors. "Maternity is fact: paternity is conjecture", especially in an environment where making paternity testing freely available isn't a priority over vaccinations and other basic healthcare. Therefore, I expect that if things get to being decided at Republic level they will default to following the mother's affiliations.

something about this, made me think.

It was along the lines of, a Minmatar woman would tend to have the idea that 3 children is something to aim for.
And the choices of fathers for them would be quite different.

This would not be frowned upon, because the culture has an entirely different view of "promiscuity".

Anyway, the idea was along the lines of:
1 child for the Tribe.
1 child for the Clan.
1 child for Me.

The child for the Tribe would have father suggested by the Tribal leaders, for overall benefit to the Tribe, to stir the gene pool, and whatnot. There may or may not be a Tribal ritual thing like a festival of fertility or whatever, for this sort of purpose. Random encounters with other Tribe members in the nightclubs could be another method of stirring the gene pool of the Tribe.

The child for the Clan would be to benefit the mother's Clan and its position in the Tribe.

The child for Me, would be mother's free choice.

And this would lend itself to various playground insults between children, depending on their ancestry. "Mum's child" could be used to suggest that the childs mother made a bad choice. "clanny" could suggest derogatory things about "social climbing" or other such things. "Tribey" may insinuate things too.

Children can be so cruel...
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Mithfindel

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Re: Gender in New Eden
« Reply #27 on: 28 Jun 2012, 15:01 »

As for Kador being traditionalist, I can't help but to point out to the great third cousin of Emperor Heideran VII: Her royal holiness Temal, the Heir of Kador.

And oh, this Jamyl lass was a legit Heir, too.

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Amarr_Emperorship_Heirs
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Matariki Rain

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Re: Gender in New Eden
« Reply #28 on: 28 Jun 2012, 19:25 »

A Louella response to respond to: yay!

First, the usual disclaimers: It's a big cluster. The main tribes probably have trillions of members (certainly lots of billions). Tribal is not the same as primitive--one of the attractions of Minmatar is the chance to play high-tech tribal--but the economics of things mean the future is very unevenly distributed. There are people getting by (or not) in camps and shanty-towns. I know at least one podder from a very "nice" well-off urban clan who got her first civilian implants as an adolescent, was expected to study hard and succeed academically, and went to the local equivalent of ballet classes with other children from "nice" clans. There are lots of ways to play Minmatar.

So some of the things I'm going to talk about here, while they work for parts of society that Mata knows, would have some other Matari characters I know turn up their noses at the idea of sex or (spirits!) pregnancy with someone who wasn't an appropriate match for their social position.

Given what we know of Minmatar society--from the situation in the refugee camps to the fancy nightclubs for ritual sex--I also expect there's a reasonable amount of "father unknown" in certain sectors. "Maternity is fact: paternity is conjecture", especially in an environment where making paternity testing freely available isn't a priority over vaccinations and other basic healthcare. Therefore, I expect that if things get to being decided at Republic level they will default to following the mother's affiliations.

something about this, made me think.

It was along the lines of, a Minmatar woman would tend to have the idea that 3 children is something to aim for.
And the choices of fathers for them would be quite different.

This would not be frowned upon, because the culture has an entirely different view of "promiscuity".

Anyway, the idea was along the lines of:
1 child for the Tribe.
1 child for the Clan.
1 child for Me.

The child for the Tribe would have father suggested by the Tribal leaders, for overall benefit to the Tribe, to stir the gene pool, and whatnot. There may or may not be a Tribal ritual thing like a festival of fertility or whatever, for this sort of purpose. Random encounters with other Tribe members in the nightclubs could be another method of stirring the gene pool of the Tribe.

The child for the Clan would be to benefit the mother's Clan and its position in the Tribe.

The child for Me, would be mother's free choice.

And this would lend itself to various playground insults between children, depending on their ancestry. "Mum's child" could be used to suggest that the childs mother made a bad choice. "clanny" could suggest derogatory things about "social climbing" or other such things. "Tribey" may insinuate things too.

Children can be so cruel...

A simplified version of this is pretty much what I play as the norm for Mata's sub-tribe. I skip the "Tribe" level, though, because the tribe is just too big to comprehend in that way. Tribe is more like... an ethnicity, or a network of clan chieftains advising sub-tribe chieftains advising tribal councils advising the clan chief. The things that affect the direction of your life come from closer by; from the elders of your clan. In Mata's case that's from "the aunties".

One of the (many) things I threw into the character of Mata was a desire to play a Natalist. It's something I didn't "get" IRL and wanted to explore. So from Mata's cultural viewpoint having children is good. Having at least one child (in Mata's matrilineal clan particularly a daughter) to continue your line and to perform the ancestor rites for you once you die is Very Important. Having more, to strengthen the clan and bring you support and mana, is a Good Thing. The custom is to have your first child young, for the clan to raise, and to continue on with your studies and finding your place. (RL connection: one of my friends had a fight on her hands when her husband's mother expected to take the first grandchild to raise. Big clash of cultures.)

To support this practically, and because it tied in with the kind of communal living I wanted to explore, Mata's clan does communal child-rearing that draws on aspects of kibbutzim, marae and 1980s-NZ-communes.

Remember that up until about 12 years ago the clan was sending young people--mostly young men--into the meat-grinder that was the Vindication Wars. That's had a huge impact on its age profile and gender balance. (The current less-lethal level of military activity is probably going to cause some re-thinking of a few things. We really need to work out what to do with our men now that more of them are surviving to adulthood.)

Among Mata's people the main local "festival" you refer to would be the gathering of the clans of her sub-tribe that's called every few years. That contributes to a spike in the birth rate of the clans which defines the beginning of a new age-cohort of children. That's a political and cultural event as well as a chance to mix up the gene-pool, but I imagine that when it comes to trying to get the young women pregnant there's a blend of young hormones, elderly advice and machination, and some outright throwing of flowers before the sub-tribal leaders. It's generally not something Mata will talk about in front of outsiders, because they don't understand.

You can tell from the naming customs, by the way, which children have acknowledged fathers and which don't. "Festival" children get pretty words usually associated with natural or seasonal phenomena in the place where a father's clan-name would otherwise go. (Trinominal system: <given name> <father's clan name or festival name> <(mother's) clan name>.) Mata's choice of names to use on her CONCORD licence turns out to be significant.
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Louella Dougans

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Re: Gender in New Eden
« Reply #29 on: 05 Jul 2012, 15:43 »

I thought of another taunt/insult somewhat relating to this.

Someone with a lot of children, may be called something like "the Holder's prize cow", or similar. This is extremely insulting, naturally.

Child A and Child B are fighting, and Child A says "your mum's the prize cow!". Child B becomes angry as a result. Mother B is likely to have strong words with Mother A when she finds out.
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