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[Nicoletta Mithra]

Well, just because some Matari can behave in public and are able to be polite, it doesn't follow that they are " hugglefucking slavers all over the place for the sake of convenience." Social repercussions are often subtle and the subtle ones are often the most effective.

[Malcolm Khross]

What I don't understand is people seem to see any attempt at being diplomatic or less-than-total-annihilation as being "huggle" RP. It doesn't make sense to me at all. Yes, you can be overtly hostile toward a group of people and yet still be generally diplomatic and even understanding toward individual within that group.

There's a lot of representation for the "we should all hate and kill one another without question or remorse" viewpoint in this thread and a lot of negativity toward individual who may choose a less guns-blazing way of approaching other people. Both sides are viable and both sides are realistic.

You can even have a staunchly patriotic supremacist that recognizes the value of diplomacy or a highly opinionated loyalist that understands the value of understanding another people/culture. Just because someone isn't always "you're my enemy RAWR DIE!" to everyone they meet that isn't the same bloodline/nation/faction/etc as they are doesn't mean they're being "huggle" RPers.

[Kybernetes Moros]

What I don't understand is people seem to see any attempt at being diplomatic or less-than-total-annihilation as being "huggle" RP. It doesn't make sense to me at all. Yes, you can be overtly hostile toward a group of people and yet still be generally diplomatic and even understanding toward individual within that group.

I suspect that it's the frequency of it that makes such attempts seem that way, even if the intention was otherwise. When the majority try to be diplomatic and understanding towards enemies, it can quickly start to seem saccharine -- for me, anyway.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

You take your words directly from my soul, Malcolm.

I don't think that there's too many diplomatic individuals in EVE, rather the opposite is my general experience, Kyber.

[Kybernetes Moros]

I don't know, before I left I saw a lot of "well, politically I abhore them, but I guessssss they're okay guys really". Whether this is good or bad depends on the situation and your personal leaning.

Incidentally, trying to be "diplomatic" isn't necessarily actually being diplomatic. They can be as pig-headed as they like, but still be all hugs and tea parties with people who'd adore to see their faction of choice dismantled in its entirety.

[Mizhara]

Kyber's touching on my experience with his words. I've damn near never seen anyone take a stand and say "Yeah, no... not going to mingle with that scum." in Eve. Well, I've seen them say it, but then there's always that exception. Exceptions. You know... everyone.

[Ulphus]

Ulf can be diplomatic. And is almost always polite to people, even ones he'd be happy to shoot in the face.

But that doesn't mean he'll socialise with them by choice.

Part of my problem is a lack of situations where it makes sense for him to even talk with people that he wouldn't be happy socialising with.

Going back to the pirate thing; I don't see that Pirates are automatically given more of a social pass in my circles than slavers. (Although people who only pirate in Amarr space aren't really pirates to Ulf.)

While VETO mostly stayed out of the republic, Ulf would visit the last gate. Since VETO and EM ended up shooting each other and setting each other red, Ulf has only been to the Last Gate once, to engage in some social chit-chat in return for getting some freed slaves that he could take back to the republic. (See! reason to engage!)

[Aldrith Shutaq]

There's also the whole "Summit/IGS" persona vs. in-person persona dichotomy. Aldrith can be facetiously polite with people on public, digital mediums, while if he ever saw them in-person he'd tear off their heads and eat their hearts.

Even in certain social situations, such as at Silas's party, he is polite until he is ready to make a stand, come what may in that moment. In fact, politeness can even be used as a weapon in itself: by proving oneself to be more controlled and disciplined than one's enemy you gain an upper-hand, especially if the confrontation is going on in public. A stoically silent/well-mannered foe can make someone spewing a flood of curses and threats look utterly foolish.

Now, get the same two people alone in a room together and things might go down very differently. However, remember that 'hostile' characters will rarely ever see each other in an environment where violence could occur, so testing these theories is often difficult. Best to sort out these differences in space, the actual game medium.

[Ghost Hunter]

... Sansha and other 'kill all humans' factions is rather self-evident and require no explanation.

In short, the Amarr might get flak for what they do and why, but there are other, infinitely worse offenders out there, and all will be judged by their actions and beliefs, set in context to whom they are and from where, etc.

I am interested in an expanded dialogue on this particular point.

[Esna Pitoojee]

I think whether you end up being "locked out" of RP circles by a choice not to engage with a given faction(s)' members is heavily dependent on how uniform an entity your character (and, as has been suggested here, you the player) views the faction to be. Perhaps this could be extrapolated into the practical vs. the purist character arguement - Esna, for instance, falls heavily into the Practical end of that arguement, which means he is more than willing to look and seek breaks in the uniformity of a given faction. This, in turn, means he will be more than willing to seek differences in nominally "hostile" factions, approach the people he finds reasonable and palatable to deal with to make ties he can pull on with them, and exclude those he does not. The factions he still believes to be uniform - for example, Nation or the Blooders - he simply won't approach.

For a more purist character who would regard all members of a given faction as hostile, regardless of personal differences between members of that faction - yes, I could see how ending up being excluded from large portions of RP would be an issue.

[Makkal]

Kyber's touching on my experience with his words. I've damn near never seen anyone take a stand and say "Yeah, no... not going to mingle with that scum." in Eve. Well, I've seen them say it, but then there's always that exception. Exceptions. You know... everyone.

People are hypocrites and easily give in to social pressure.

One of my neighbor's sons is part of the KKK. Both my neighbor and her children are very open about their racism... but they have black friends. Her son is an EMT, which means he worked with a number of black and Hispanic people, but he's never suggested that he'd leave his job.  I'm liberal and actually do anti-racist work, but I haven't moved to get away from my racist neighbors.

I know another woman who thinks her hairdresser is gay and believes gays are going to hell, but she hasn't changed hairdressers.

I think what you're describing is SOP even among the extremists of the world.

[BloodBird]

... Sansha and other 'kill all humans' factions is rather self-evident and require no explanation.

In short, the Amarr might get flak for what they do and why, but there are other, infinitely worse offenders out there, and all will be judged by their actions and beliefs, set in context to whom they are and from where, etc.

I am interested in an expanded dialogue on this particular point.

Human physiology, genetics, and body-related assets are all hardware. Given sufficient technology individual parts can be replaced, repaired, optimized, etc. A man who loses a hand in an accident - regardless of replacing it or not - still resides under the Human condition, because what makes a "human" is all software, or the mix of memories, emotions, personality traits etc. that comprise what we refer to as the "soul".

Ergo, compromising or destroying this software is technically grounds for termination of the "human" condition - when the information that made a human what it was is lost, we call the new condition death.

" In secret facilities deep within Stain the relatively new Jovian capsule technology was combined with illegally modified existing brain implants to create slaves with the thoroughness of a computer and the ingenuity of humans. People that would be completely loyal and dedicated to Sansha and his dream, yet creative enough to handle complex and delicate situations.

Considered incapable of conventional thought the Trues are known for silent, slow, efficiency. They show little emotion and follow their orders relentlessly. Death and damage are not greatly feared, and rather than mourn their dead in typical ways their biomass is often reprocessed for sake of efficiency."

Sansha's True Slave program essentially creates a force of mindless, "soulless" machines with a noticeable edge (human ingenuity) over stock robotic forces such as combat drones, battle androids and shackled AI programs. They are basically robots with human-brains for control chips. "Dead" is an apt description for their... condition.

In short, Sansha's stated goals may be benevolent but the reality is pretty much that a victory for his nation means the effective end of the Human species.

Keep in mind that all the above is my opinion and my definition of a human can be debated for... well, forever. "What does it mean to be human" is a never-ending topic, after all.


*EDIT* Btw, I love your avatars. What are they from?

[Makkal]

Human physiology, genetics, and body-related assets are all hardware. Given sufficient technology individual parts can be replaced, repaired, optimized, etc. A man who loses a hand in an accident - regardless of replacing it or not - still resides under the Human condition, because what makes a "human" is all software, or the mix of memories, emotions, personality traits etc. that comprise what we refer to as the "soul".

By that reasoning, a car must have a soul. After all, I can repair, replace, and optimize it. If I remove a wheel or a headlight, it's still a car.

[hellgremlin]

The Adeptus Mechanicus agrees.

[Makkal]

What is that on your lip?