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[Laerise [PIE]]

Accomplishments mean little in terms of present day effects if they have no lasting impact except circumstance; faction warfare has little effect on roleplay. It's currently the first and only iteration of a flawed idea system, and CCP has a lot of history in terms of adopting such things and leaving them be at the fundamental level when they suck.

Again, a lot of people will disagree with you on this.

Just because you do not consider FW and combat to be RP acchievements we do, it would be too kind of you to accept this.

[Havohej]

Accomplishments mean little in terms of present day effects if they have no lasting impact except circumstance; faction warfare has little effect on roleplay. It's currently the first and only iteration of a flawed idea system, and CCP has a lot of history in terms of adopting such things and leaving them be at the fundamental level when they suck.

Again, a lot of people will disagree with you on this.

Just because you do not consider FW and combat to be RP acchievements we do, it would be too kind of you to accept this.

Or you could both agree that you disagree about FW's impact on roleplay

For my own part, I think FW impacts RP in terms of occupancy, but after like 6 months in Minnie Militia I can't not agree that FW itself is completely terrible as a game mechanic.  I also can't not agree that CCP's handling of it is pretty poor when it took so long for an official IC acknowledgement of Caldari militia completely conquering Gallente FW territory.  I would hope that after that they have pre-baked IC news items to post and medals to hand out if any militia ever completely crushes the other side again, but unfortunately we'll never know for sure unless they tell us "yes, we do" or it happens and they post the canned responses before another 3 months rolls by.

FW is a different topic, though, so I'm going to split these two posts off to their own threads (not moving them to the FW subforum because it technically isn't a discussion of goings on in facwar).

One more thing: this has the potential to be a subject of much controversy; be mindful when you post that your opinion is not the only 'valid' one.

[Laerise [PIE]]

Accomplishments mean little in terms of present day effects if they have no lasting impact except circumstance; faction warfare has little effect on roleplay. It's currently the first and only iteration of a flawed idea system, and CCP has a lot of history in terms of adopting such things and leaving them be at the fundamental level when they suck.

Again, a lot of people will disagree with you on this.

Just because you do not consider FW and combat to be RP acchievements we do, it would be too kind of you to accept this.

Or you could both agree that you disagree about FW's impact on roleplay

For my own part, I think FW impacts RP in terms of occupancy, but after like 6 months in Minnie Militia I can't not agree that FW itself is completely terrible as a game mechanic.  I also can't not agree that CCP's handling of it is pretty poor when it took so long for an official IC acknowledgement of Caldari militia completely conquering Gallente FW territory.  I would hope that after that they have pre-baked IC news items to post and medals to hand out if any militia ever completely crushes the other side again, but unfortunately we'll never know for sure unless they tell us "yes, we do" or it happens and they post the canned responses before another 3 months rolls by.

FW is a different topic, though, so I'm going to split these two posts off to their own threads (not moving them to the FW subforum because it technically isn't a discussion of goings on in facwar).

Yes, of course, it just galls me when I am told that the sweat, blood and tears so many roleplayers have shed in the last two years are null and void because a very vocal minority on this board has decided thusly. 

[Havohej]

I can understand that, but remember just as your opinion isn't the only valid one, neither is theirs

It's all kinda subjective, I think, in that to you (PIE Inc.), as an active FW plexing corporation, it's a lot of effort, it's a lot of time and conflict and very meaningful RP surrounding each earned Victory Point.  But for a lot of others who don't go anywhere near the business end of a warp scrambler, let alone the FW warzone, it's as distant and irrelevant to them as ongoing violence in Somalia is to many of us in the United States.

[scagga]

...it's as distant and irrelevant to them as ongoing violence in Somalia is to many of us in the United States.

Quite relevant then?

- Black hawk down!
- Damnit the pirates got my iphone delivery again!

[Laerise [PIE]]

Hehe, yes, of course.

However, the fact that this certain minority brings it up in every n'th post and rubs it into our collective face is extremely frustrating.

A topic that has been agreed upon as "matter of choice" is and will remain just that - unless of course you continue to bring it up often enough and your oponent stops bothering, then it becomes the historical truth.  

[Havohej]

...it's as distant and irrelevant to them as ongoing violence in Somalia is to many of us in the United States.

Quite relevant then?

- Black hawk down!
- Damnit the pirates got my iphone delivery again!

Blackhawk down was the 90's.. I can't remember the last thing I heard about that particular conflict in Somalia (the piracy bit is only loosely related, imo), aside from that I know I haven't heard Somalia is at peace and on its way to joining the rest of modern civilisation yet.  That's what I mean, though.. I'm pretty sure they're still killing each other over there, but it has no bearing on what I do here in the States.

Perhaps a flawed analogy on my part, but there's the logic behind it at any rate.

[Laerise [PIE]]

Yes, of course.

However, this does not make the conflict less relevant to those involved - or those who follow it by whatever means.

The main problem is that there are two factions from what I can see.

One is in FW or interrested into it, and the other is not and does not appreciate those who take part one bit.

It would be nice if both factions could just agree to disagree and finally 'get on with it', so to speak.

FW is a fact, it exists and it mends the game world, one way or another.

P.S.: Sorry for the ranting and raging, its just... this is not the first time this comes up.

[Havohej]

Yes, of course.

However, this does not make the conflict less relevant to those involved - or those who follow it by whatever means.

Of course it doesn't.  I think part of this is the people to whom it is relevant taking offense at the fact that it's not equally relevant to everyone else?

Relevance in a video game is 100% opinion.  Everyone's entitled to theirs.  RPers for whom FW is relevant will have RP that has to do with FW.  RPers for whom it's irrelevant likely won't, or if they do they'll probably have much less of it.  But nobody has to embrace it - it's a big cluster, right?

[Casiella]

For me, with the actual game mechanics in FW so flawed, it almost becomes a pure RP mechanic in some sense.

I can't think of anything in EVE that has absolutely no relevance to RP. Some things more than others, but in general it comes down to "what do you want to RP today?"

[Ashar Kor-Azor]

It is not that the contributions to and effects of faction warfare are irrelevant to the content one can draw upon while roleplaying. That is simply not the framing of my statement, and claims to the contrary are, shall we say, short-sighted.

I am almost prepared to suggest that such an argument on your part, Laerise, would be framed in bad faith.

It's that:

-in the context of the discussion, which included chest-beating and mention of accomplishments as validation for upholding a specific structure as relevant to the institution and practice of roleplay rather than its content, participation in faction warfare was rightly set aside, and

-one's capacity in factional warfare does not somehow create a capacity in roleplay, and

-one's doings in factional warfare do not somehow create new venues and capacities in roleplay.

Now, if you just have an urge to be offended after accepting all that, fine, but it won't earn you much of use.

And if you don't accept my statement, I'm gonna fuckin' shrug and carry on.

Also.

Yes, of course, it just galls me when I am told that the sweat, blood and tears so many roleplayers have shed in the last two years are null and void because a very vocal minority on this board has decided thusly.  :roll:

If sitting in front of your computer is costing you significant quantities of sweat, blood, or tears, something is out of balance with your gamin' - and your level of competitiveness.

Roleplay is not about outdoing others; it is primarily collaborative for the sake of storytelling and has a different relationship with competition than does the sort of gaming you describe.

It is not a lolhardcore practice; I think we tend to do things like reminding each other to reduce stress, if possible. Increasing your stress level for the sake of accomplishment is hardly a point in the favor of the people involved, especially when you seek to elevate assessment of the merit of that accomplishment. Hardening the fuck up, in roleplay, does not equate to doing MOAR of it, ALL DAY. As such, the link between it and hardcore perusal of a flawed mechanic grows only more tentative.

Cue links to youtube videos featuring that WoW south park clip, I'm sure.

[Merdaneth]

Cognitive dissonance theory would say that once you did spent blood, sweat and tears in front of your computer, you cannot help but consider your work an RP achievement and very relevant to RP if you are an avid RP-er.

To me FW feels like the RP equivalent of the WWI trench war, both in typology and effect. A lot of fighting for inches back and forth, with the conquest of a few yards having no noticeable impact on your actual day-to-day activities. Generals working hard to keep the troops inspired and morale up while they start to slowly zone out with no hope of any end in sight while the difference between enemies and friends fade.

[Laerise [PIE]]

Cognitive dissonance theory would say that once you did spent blood, sweat and tears in front of your computer, you cannot help but consider your work an RP achievement and very relevant to RP if you are an avid RP-er.

To me FW feels like the RP equivalent of the WWI trench war, both in typology and effect. A lot of fighting for inches back and forth, with the conquest of a few yards having no noticeable impact on your actual day-to-day activities. Generals working hard to keep the troops inspired and morale up while they start to slowly zone out with no hope of any end in sight while the difference between enemies and friends fade.

Figure of speech, but I agree with you. It is a lot like WW I trench warfare - as much as I can say that, I wasn't there - and I kind of doubt that you could find a comparable environment for RP as easily anywhere else.

Thanks to FW I could experience Lae' in an environment of constant warfare, warfare that involved more than the occasional skirmish.
Constant patrolling and eventually meaningless battles take a toll on your character if you want it or not.

[Havohej]

Yes, of course, it just galls me when I am told that the sweat, blood and tears so many roleplayers have shed in the last two years are null and void because a very vocal minority on this board has decided thusly. 

If sitting in front of your computer is costing you significant quantities of sweat, blood, or tears, something is out of balance with your gamin' - and your level of competitiveness.

Blood, sweat and tears is a figure of speech that basically amounts to :effort:, which trying to win at FW (in terms of occupancy through the plexing and bunker mechanics) definitely is.  Not as much :effort: as sov warfare, but definitely :effort:.  It's a huge grind.  Choosing to participate in it certainly speaks to the player's competitiveness, but I don't agree that it's necessarily out of balance in the sense that a 13 year old kid throwing himself out a window because his mother wouldn't let him play WoW was out of balance :p

Myself, I spent the better part of two weeks plexing heavily almost around the clock with Dark Rising when they were in Minmatar Militia, the end result of which was one system being occupied.  I respect the willpower and strong competitive nature of the folks willing to dedicate their available play time in EVE to the FacWar struggle, I just didn't have it myself.

[Myyona]

Surely Factional Warfare can be a RP outlet too, but I begin to have problems when it is becoming the only outlet. Having half or more of the threads on the IGS about this and that system being occupied/liberated is becoming a dreadful bore. They are all about passed events that for outsiders are completely irrelevant, as there is nothing to interact with, and worst of all makes the IGS look very much like COAD in the early days of EVE. RP smack talk is still smack talk and rarely opens up for any other topic than comparing e-peen RP style.