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[Ciarente]

Primitive also =/= socially and/or linguistically unsophisticated.

I'd argue that the Matari language is linguistically simple, but not in a bad way, in a good way. In an elegant "these are the grammar rules and conventions now stick to them" sort of way, because there's no other way for their language to survive the 700 years of enslavement. It would need to simplify itself, make itself easy to learn, to the point where someone with only a bare bones knowledge of what letters make what sounds to be able to write decently, if not fluently. This has nothing to do with the "primitiveness" or "tribalness" of their society, and everything to do with the need for simplicity in order for the language to survive.

Even accepting your premises that:
a) there is one Matari language; and
b) all Matari were enslaved

(which I note are premises not accepted by very many Minmatar RPers)

I note that contemporary linguists regard the description of 'creole' languages developed during 18th and 19th century enslavement as 'simple' to be simple prejudice.

For those interested in linguistic development, I highly recommend Edward Sapir's 1921 (but still relevant) survey, Language. An Introduction to the Study of Speech.

In his words, "attempts to connect particular types of linguistic morphology with certain correlated stages of cultural development are vain. Rightly understood, such correlations are rubbish. Both simple and complex types of language of an indefinite number of varieties may be found spoken at any desired level of cultural advance. When it comes to linguistic form, Plato walks with the Macedonian swineherd, Confucius with the head-hunting savage of Assam."

[Saede Riordan]

Actually, that's highly unlikely to ever happen.

I'm one of the first people who'll get exasperated with Amarr RPers trying to enforce all kinds of Amarrian influence on Matari culture, language and so on OoC, but there's no way in hell a discouraged language will survive 700 years in any kind of 'pure' form, simplistic or not.

What has survived are some pure fragments. Some hybrids with Amarrian language. Some Amarrian 'loaner' words and some just made up ones. Then after being freed, there's most likely been quite a resurgence and attempt to make it purer and linguistic experts and such will have pored over archaeological, historical and even oral remnants in order to 'reconstruct' the language. The result will most likely be a language fraught with loaner words and hybrids, with a few 'pure' remnants in between. Nothing 'simplistic' about it. These languages have a tendency to become more complicated, not less.

Secondly: One Matari language? Oh hell no. Impossible. Not with that kind of cultural and geographical separation over such a long time. There may be a language constructed after the rebellion, that's purely Matari, but it won't be the most used one. It'd be a similar task as to resurrect Latin. Some speak it, but it's not a national language anywhere.

That makes sense actually. However, would it be worth looking into the language evolution of the groups that escaped enslavement, like the Thukkers or the Matari that fled to the Federation? What would happen to those dialects?

[Louella Dougans]

most of the Minmatar were not conquered, as per the revision to the timelines, the Amarr Empire was still conquering worlds at the time of the Rebellion.

the old Minmatar republic of the time still had a working command structure and a working Fleet and functional infrastructure.

[Gottii]

most of the Minmatar were not conquered, as per the revision to the timelines, the Amarr Empire was still conquering worlds at the time of the Rebellion.

the old Minmatar republic of the time still had a working command structure and a working Fleet and functional infrastructure.

I had thought most of the Minmatar were conquered, but that a recognizable minority hadnt.  Any PF on this?  (not trying to be aggressive, just honestly curious)

[Louella Dougans]

most of the Minmatar were not conquered, as per the revision to the timelines, the Amarr Empire was still conquering worlds at the time of the Rebellion.

the old Minmatar republic of the time still had a working command structure and a working Fleet and functional infrastructure.

I had thought most of the Minmatar were conquered, but that a recognizable minority hadnt.  Any PF on this?  (not trying to be aggressive, just honestly curious)

Theodicy, I think is the only source for this, and the canon has been modified to suit.

[lallara zhuul]

Thats odd, how then the majority of the race is within the Empire?

[Louella Dougans]

Thats odd, how then the majority of the race is within the Empire?

25% in the Republic, 33% in the Empire, 20% in the Federation, 22% "Other" - including Thukker

Possibly slaves reproduce faster, due to not having clans that war between themselves, as the minmatar of old did?

Or maybe not.

 

[Matariki Rain]

How I play Matari languages...

This is player-generated background in areas where the PF has little to say. It builds on elements where the PF is sparse and in one important respect where PF has changed radically (whether or not there was a continuous tradition of non-Thukker free Matari culture between the Day of Darkness and the successful Rebellion). Depending on how those elements are developed in any future canon-building this might or might not have a future, but I need something for my play and stories now, so this is how I play it.

The Republic uses:

• Modern Standard Matari
• Amarish and Amarish patois
• various tribal and clan dialects appropriate to each area.

Also, especially in popular culture:

• Gallentean.

Modern Standard Matari (MSM) is -- depending on who you ask -- a revival and modernisation of an old pan-tribal tongue OR a made-up language drawing elements from the dominant tribal languages during the period of the formation of the Republic. It's the language of the Republic government, of pan-tribal media, and of most cities and stations which aren't clearly owned and dominated by one or other tribe.

[As examples of "revived, modernised and standardised" languages which have been adopted and spread within two generations for cultural and political reasons I think of modern Hebrew, the Welsh revival and modern standardised Maori. For a language of widespread media that's distinct from the local variants but widely/universally intelligible I'm thinking of Modern Standard Arabic.]

[I don't know what resources are available recording Matari languages from before the Day of Darkness, who might have those now (imagine some Amarrian institute for the study of heathen races, perhaps) or how to play with the Great Matari Retcon here. More on that later.]

[For me, language raises questions about Minmatar government services and even the Republic's sources of revenue. Especially with the hiatus in the Parliament-and-Tribal-Council plotline it's hard to say at the moment what's done by the tribes and what by the Republic. I've played that there's some Republic funding available for teachers and basic resources, including in clan- or tribal-based schools, so long as those schools provide a certain number of hours of instruction in a certain basic syllabus, and that that syllabus includes Modern Standard Matari. Your mileage may vary.]

Amarish (which I usually spell Amarrish, doubling the "r" as in "Amarrian") is used for practical reasons: it's the language understood by most of the Returned. It's not a favoured language within the Republic, and people are encouraged to learn at least MSM, but it's too widely-understood, often as a sole language, to ignore.

I'm not sure whether freeborn Matar would be taught Amarish. It may be necessary to learn some of it to communicate with Auntie Velun who never quite took to this newfangled Matari language, or with the newly Returned. It's also likely to be the cradle tongue of some of the first-generation freeborn. I expect that there will be competing social pressures: "leave it behind and embrace the language of freedom" and "this is my tongue, not only the tongue of the oppressors: don't strip my words from me as well as everything else".

By now there are probably societies devoted to the research and preservation of aspects of Matari language and culture from the Great Captivity.

[I'm making some assumptions here which affect my conclusions in various ways: that one of the facets of Amarrian slavery is the redemption of the enslaved; that redemption comes, in some part, through cultural and religious understanding; and that Amarrian religion is quite tied to -- and is now stabilised by -- the language of the majority of the body-of-knowledge that is the Amarrian Scriptures. These mean that I expect the general Amarrian approach to involve imposing Amarrian language and religion on slaves, although there may be quite some variation between what might be expected of a house servant and a mine worker.]

Tribal and clan dialects: I play that they exist, but I've avoided getting too far into detailing them. The retcon about whether Matari as a whole were enslaved plays merry havoc with this, and I'm avoiding detailing stuff that I don't have to that's affected by that until we get more information.

Gallente language (which I call "Gallentean" because that's what it was called in some of the early write-ups I read) is part of a strand in post-Rebellion Matari culture from the early days of political influence and aspiration through to the lyrics of current Gallente pop songs. It's also the language of a huge chunk of free Matari -- the GalFed Matari --  and it's very important to keep those cultural ties going as much as possible (complete with "rediscover your ancestry" tourism). While there's now a torrent of Matari pop culture, and I play that the relationship between Matari and Gallente culture in the Republic is sometimes fraught (quite a lot of "thank you for your assistance, but we have our own ways of doing things now") it's still there in various fields and some circles, sought out, courted or disapproved of in different measures.


General comments:

From Earth experience, properly-suppressed languages and cultures don't survive well. I don't expect a language and culture to survive as a living language and culture beyond maybe three generations of slavery, and I consider that a stretch. There's a difference, though, between "properly suppressed" and "allowed to continue within its own community", and that's where I have all sorts of questions which don't currently have answers. For now, your corner of the cluster might have quite different conditions to mine.

I really dislike the Minmatar retcon. It changes a bunch of fundamental stuff without giving us new stuff to work with, and generally makes Minmatar world-building a shaky and unstable field where many of the things we'd taken as reasonable extensions of the old canon are now probably wrong.

[Kazzzi]

There was a lot of african languages thrown into the mix by the U'K folk.

Originally CCP had a bunch of Minny NPC names based on Swahili.

[Orthic]

There was a lot of african languages thrown into the mix by the U'K folk.

Originally CCP had a bunch of Minny NPC names based on Swahili.

I had a girlfriend that learned that language back in college.

On topic, I'm not really sure what to think of race languages, when you think about how diverse our individual planet is and then look at the hundreds and thousands of worlds that make up each empire, etc. While space travel might lead to some homogenization, it also seems like they should be speaking languages we've never imagined - which, ofc, would make them rather hard to RP

dammit, I out logicked myself.

[Casiella]

Which is sort of my point. In my view, projects like this should focus on some local dialect or language, rather than "this is how Minmatar speak".

Or, even worse, "this is how you primitive Minmatar speak." That approach typically doesn't get a lot of buy-in from the players who've spent a lot of time worldbuilding in that area.

[Saede Riordan]

Which is sort of my point. In my view, projects like this should focus on some local dialect or language, rather than "this is how Minmatar speak".

Or, even worse, "this is how you primitive Minmatar speak." That approach typically doesn't get a lot of buy-in from the players who've spent a lot of time worldbuilding in that area.

I think part of the issue though, is we as the players want a language that we can use with others. We want a Minmatar version of Napanii, something most minmatar would speak so we can have our conversations in it.

[Mizhara]

* Mizhara changes from fluent Amarrish to Modern Standard Matari, then looks around and changes into an obscure northern dialect.

Hmm... would you look at that. One single emote and I did exactly that, 'kita.
Stick with creating small local flavor additions. I'll be sticking to the translators, myself.

[Casiella]

Which is sort of my point. In my view, projects like this should focus on some local dialect or language, rather than "this is how Minmatar speak".

Or, even worse, "this is how you primitive Minmatar speak." That approach typically doesn't get a lot of buy-in from the players who've spent a lot of time worldbuilding in that area.

I think part of the issue though, is we as the players want a language that we can use with others. We want a Minmatar version of Napanii, something most minmatar would speak so we can have our conversations in it.

Who's "we", kemo-sabe?

[Ulphus]

Who's "we", kemo-sabe?

QFT.

More than half my corp don't do English as a first language. I'm happy making them talk in only one made up langage.