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[Ulphus]

So you don't like my idea of mental communication beyond language being how the translators work?

There is some reasonable philosophical arguments to suggest that what you can think is limited by the language you have. If you have no words for something like the colour blue, it's very difficult to think about the concept meaningfully. If this is true, then it would be very difficult for a mental-concept translator to work divorced from language.

[Ulphus]

Matari languages, to me, have always been very primitive,

I'm feeling a bit like a broken record here, but I'm going to say it anyway. The Matari had Spaceships before the Amarr showed up longer than Earthlings have had them IRL. They have a higher tech than Earth today for many things. The Arabic world had the top scientists a thousand years ago, (although perhaps the chinese were better) and they were a tribal culture. Tribal social organisations are not automatically the same as "primitive".

and I usually thought of them as being more of an ancient tribal dialect with a heavy dose of influence from the language of their Amarrian captors. Kinda like the Native Americans of today. They keep their own language but it has also been supplemented with English. Going on that principle I would think that the Matari languages would probably be a mix of their native tongue and Amarrian.

For all that I said above, I think the idea that the current Matari language(s) have borrowed words and influences from the Amarr is very likely. (I can also see a sort of doomed effort by some people to discourage the use of Amarrian words in normal language though).

[Ember Vykos]

Matari languages, to me, have always been very primitive,

I'm feeling a bit like a broken record here, but I'm going to say it anyway. The Matari had Spaceships before the Amarr showed up longer than Earthlings have had them IRL. They have a higher tech than Earth today for many things. The Arabic world had the top scientists a thousand years ago, (although perhaps the chinese were better) and they were a tribal culture. Tribal social organisations are not automatically the same as "primitive".

By primitive I meant more of how they sounded as a language. I have no qualms admitting that even a 4 year old in EVE would probably have more technological/theoretical knowledge of a vast number of things than our top scientists do today IRL. Primitive was explaining the language sound not the Matari themselves.

[Ulphus]

Primitive was explaining the language sound not the Matari themselves.

Umm, Ok, Fair cop. 

What does "Primitive" mean to you as how a language sounds? Could you give some examples of RL languages that you think sound primitive or modern?

[Ember Vykos]

Actually been looking on youtube for just such and coming up somewhat empty. What I mean by that is that it doesnt "flow" as well. If you took a spoken language and compared it to a wave line a romance language would probably be a curvy line and I see Matari as being a bit more of a  squared line.

Non-Matari(Romance language for instance)


Matari


I suppose less refined or harsher would fit in the place of primitive as far as the sound goes, but what I'm getting at is that Matari seems a bit more choppy when it is spoken as opposed to flowing.

[Matariki Rain]

I suggest that a descriptor other than "primitive" might help your case here. From what you describe, I suggest that "guttural", "plosive", "choppy" and "having strongly-marked diction without slurring" might all be contenders.

I'd then say "That's your opinion", but we might at least be talking about the same sort of thing.

[Ember Vykos]

I suggest that a descriptor other than "primitive" might help your case here. From what you describe, I suggest that "guttural", "plosive", "choppy" and "having strongly-marked diction without slurring" might all be contenders.

I'd then say "That's your opinion", but we might at least be talking about the same sort of thing.

Defensive a bit eh?

Also, check the bottom of last post.

[Saede Riordan]

Matari languages, to me, have always been very primitive,

I'm feeling a bit like a broken record here, but I'm going to say it anyway. The Matari had Spaceships before the Amarr showed up longer than Earthlings have had them IRL. They have a higher tech than Earth today for many things. The Arabic world had the top scientists a thousand years ago, (although perhaps the chinese were better) and they were a tribal culture. Tribal social organisations are not automatically the same as "primitive".

By primitive I meant more of how they sounded as a language. I have no qualms admitting that even a 4 year old in EVE would probably have more technological/theoretical knowledge of a vast number of things than our top scientists do today IRL. Primitive was explaining the language sound not the Matari themselves.

Let me see if I get get something better sounding here...less primitive, more...guttural a language that is more rough, like Klingon, or Hungarian, or Orc.

I...don't actually see this. I see the language as being unrefined, but not quite like that. Certain dialects maybe, but I dunno, I always imagined the Matari having a fairly pretty language. I said Gaelic because its an example I actually know of, of a language that sounds the way I want it, where it can be both smooth and melodious, as well as harsh and unpleasant, but for Seri, I'm sure we can find some Polynesian or African language that fits the bill. 

[Ember Vykos]

I suppose that could be true. I've always seen them as being a bit short spoken as well or perhaps the PC term of men/women of few words would work better, but then again most of my impressions of Matari came before I started roleplaying in EVE when I was doing a workup in my head of a Brutor character I made when I first started the game.

[Casiella]

As a friendly suggestion, you'll probably get a much better reception from other people creating some dialect from some corner of the cluster rather than telling roleplayers who already have done a lot of worldbuilding in an area how their characters should all be speaking.

[Ciarente]

Just a couple of points.

As has been pointed out elsewhere in the thread, tribal =/= primitive.

Primitive also =/= socially and/or linguistically unsophisticated.

Modern languages that we are used to regarding as 'cultured' or 'sophisticated' are the direct, and in some cases practically unchanged, descendants of languages spoken by people living in mud huts.

On earth, just one planet compared to the many, many in the Eve universe, there is a massive variation between the 'sound' of languages, even if you limit the comparison to 'languages spoken by people not living 'modern' lifestyles. In fact, there's a massive variation on single continents, let alone between, say, Iwaidjan and Haida.

[Bong-cha Jones]

I'm not confident using Gaelic is representative of those chosen bloodlines. It's a language for pasty, white-skinned Britons, whereas Starkmanir have been described as "having the face of a Gallente, and the skin of a Brutor".

That is visible on some Matari objects, as I brought up on the other thread. Immediately, that indicates a non-Latin writing script, whereas Gaelic is Latin-based.

Gaelic is a language for more than Britons and includes Scots and the Irish.  It's also three languages.  And it's a branch of a language family spoken across most of Europe for, well, a long while, by tribal peoples, until they were conquered or displaced by a mix of other tribal peoples and the Roman Empire.  It's worth noting that its use of a Roman alphabet is entirely a kitbash by the Romans, since the Celts didn't develop writing systems.   It's also worth noting that a great many modern tribal tongues, from all over the globe, are written using variations on the Roman alphabet.

It's further worth noting that probably nobody in the Eve cluster actually uses a phonetic script based on the writing style of ancient Phoenicians.

Ciarente and Ulphus handled most of the rest of what I wanted to say, so I'll just say briefly that while Eve could use more diversity in its influences, I'm uncomfortable with the idea that dark-skinned future cultures should have their influences confined to dark-skinned modern cultures.

Edit:  I misremembered.  Gaelic isn't for Britons at all; the third language within it is Manx.  And to my shame, my knowledge of Ogham is horribly outdated.  Turns out the Gaelic-speaking branch could write after all.

[Ciarente]

I'll just say briefly that while Eve could use more diversity in its influences, I'm uncomfortable with the idea that dark-skinned future cultures should have their influences confined to dark-skinned modern cultures.

Agreed. Also it's worth bearing in mind that the ethnic diversity within even one group, in this case Brutor, ranges from this:



 to this.


Not to mention this

[Saede Riordan]

Primitive also =/= socially and/or linguistically unsophisticated.

I'd argue that the Matari language is linguistically simple, but not in a bad way, in a good way. In an elegant "these are the grammar rules and conventions now stick to them" sort of way, because there's no other way for their language to survive the 700 years of enslavement. It would need to simplify itself, make itself easy to learn, to the point where someone with only a bare bones knowledge of what letters make what sounds to be able to write decently, if not fluently. This has nothing to do with the "primitiveness" or "tribalness" of their society, and everything to do with the need for simplicity in order for the language to survive.

[Mizhara]

Actually, that's highly unlikely to ever happen.

I'm one of the first people who'll get exasperated with Amarr RPers trying to enforce all kinds of Amarrian influence on Matari culture, language and so on OoC, but there's no way in hell a discouraged language will survive 700 years in any kind of 'pure' form, simplistic or not.

What has survived are some pure fragments. Some hybrids with Amarrian language. Some Amarrian 'loaner' words and some just made up ones. Then after being freed, there's most likely been quite a resurgence and attempt to make it purer and linguistic experts and such will have pored over archaeological, historical and even oral remnants in order to 'reconstruct' the language. The result will most likely be a language fraught with loaner words and hybrids, with a few 'pure' remnants in between. Nothing 'simplistic' about it. These languages have a tendency to become more complicated, not less.

Secondly: One Matari language? Oh hell no. Impossible. Not with that kind of cultural and geographical separation over such a long time. There may be a language constructed after the rebellion, that's purely Matari, but it won't be the most used one. It'd be a similar task as to resurrect Latin. Some speak it, but it's not a national language anywhere.