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[Ashar Kor-Azor]

It doesn't help the bulk of RP characters in eve are racist ideologues and zealots. It's kinda hard to interact with these types of people to begin with, especially if they don't fit into narrow archetypes

A quick reply before a more considered one - I recall you once criticized my character as being a moral relativist, or divorced from narrow factional views. I also recall that this sounded like a general complaint against such outlooks at the time moreso than a complaint about me specifically, though I've earned complaints about my characters from time to time.

Has your opinion of relativism changed, then?

[mod]Please avoid generalizing someone's past views based on a conversation you 'recall' and implying that they have changed them. Please don't make assumptions about people's positions from such 'recalled' conversations.[/mod]

[Kaleigh Doyle]

Ashar, im not sure what you're on about. Address the post I made here if you're going to reply to me.

[mod]If you have a problem with someone's post, please report it.[/mod]

[Ashar Kor-Azor]

There's no need to get defensive, Kayleigh.

I'll restate that I recall you criticizing characters for being the opposite of this:

...racist ideologues and zealots...hard to interact with...if [certain parties] don't fit into narrow archetypes

And that the character being criticized was mine, which is why I remember you criticizing a character that could be described as a "moral relativist, or divorced from narrow factional views."

That the character was mine matters rather little to me, as I'm after your opinion on which side - if not both - of this continuum one should seek to be on - if one either should seek to be on either side at all - and how far from the extremes.

If you don't want to give it because of perceived personal investment on my part, I will again assure you there is none. The comment was one I was perfectly glad to receive as I sought to play a character that wasn't tied to a zealous worldview.


[mod]Please don't characterize other posters as 'defensive' and if you have an issue with someone's post, please report it. Please remember that other people's perceptions of our characters may differ from our own perceptions.[/mod]

[Morwen Lagann]

Though I have to admit I have been very, very surprised to see KotMC still accepting Sansha supporters ICly when they ban 'mere' blooders and EoMs.

While a blanket ban on Equilibrium followers Just Makes Sense™ for various reasons that would devolve into racist and stereotypical comments about religious extremists, the other half of the ban is not on Blooders, but on the entire Sani Sabik faith, which includes a large number of sects and variations on the faith that neither care for nor support the Covenant (and in some cases, want nothing to do with them at all). There are plenty of Sani Sabik out there who keep their stuff to themselves and don't talk about it because they know they aren't Blooders, and hate being labeled as them because the shoe really doesn't fit despite what society seems to think.

So what should happen is, the Sanshas are addressed ICly and turned away at the door, or allowed in on conditions of nonviolence.

Judging by one of Aldrith's posts on IGS, this is exactly what happened - Jia contacted him, asked if it was okay to come, and he said that it was fine as long as they behaved. Which they did. Far better than Seriphyn did, I might add.

That's exactly what Seriphyn pursued by turning up at the event and mouthing off. Social exclusion not by banhamm0rz, but by actively RPing and being like "Kick these fuckers out, yo"

No, this is not what Seriphyn did, this is what you did. You the player, not Seriphyn the character. You went into the channel with the express purpose of giving yourself an excuse to start a thread on IGS:

[ 2011.03.21 03:46:59 ] Seriphyn Inhonores > oh hell with it, I might have Seri go in there
 [ 2011.03.21 03:47:23 ] Seriphyn Inhonores > just to pedantic about the band, then notice the TS-F members, and accuse KOTMC on IGS
 [ 2011.03.21 03:47:54 ] Seriphyn Inhonores > /emote walks in, complains about band, complains about guests, leaves
 [ 2011.03.21 03:48:49 ] Seriphyn Inhonores > but I also wanted to put Seri in some 18th century European coatee and tricorne.

In fact, this didn't even occur until after people had told you that Jia, Screwball and Kyber were there, and you'd been making comments about "omg they're being Gallente" for a while regarding music and dance styles. You lurked in the IC channel while being pedantic in an OOC channel about what was going on. It's childish.

My issue with the situation is not that it happened, but the way it happened. It'd have been one thing if Seri had just shown up in the Keep, and stuff had just progressed from there, but instead, you waffled about in another channel complaining about how terrible it was that the Sansha loyalists were allowed inside, and how Gallente the party was, and then announced your OOC intent to show up just to be able to make an IGS post about it. After, apparently, having been told (supposedly IC, judging by Shalee's posts on IGS) that Seri couldn't come to the party.

Do I think that it's a bit silly for Sansha loyalists to be given as much of a free lunch as they have been? Sure. But I find your method here, however, to be even sillier, just as I see it as silly when other people do the same thing (several incidents in the Last Gate come to mind). Instead of bitching, moaning, telling us what you're going to do and then doing it, why don't you just skip the first three steps and do it without saying anything, and only discuss it OOC if someone else brings it up there?

As an aside: In character, Morwen has her issues with Nation loyalists just like everyone else - some very personal issues among them. She just has the self-control to be able to reserve the exchange of anything more than verbal fire for in space, as she does for most groups, save a few specific individuals.

[mod]Please avoid making judgements as to whether people have OOC motives for IC actions. It's a mess place to go.[/mod]

[Kaleigh Doyle]

Ashar, this isn't a discussion about moral relativism. I simply made the point that with such an abundance of zealots and ultranationalists in the the community, it's not much of a surprise that this kind of exclusiveness becomes commonplace.


[mod]If someone's post is off topic, please report it as such, responding just furthers the problem.[/mod]

[Seriphyn]

Alright, you got me I guess 

[Raphael Saint]

One thing I'd like to know is if I missed a piece of prime fiction somewhere that declares any and all waltzes as "Gallentean."  Because if there's not, Seri (to me, at least) came off as an obnoxious "you're doing it wrong" twit by claiming at everything at the event was Gallentean.

Now, I'm not saying that Seriphyn is/was/will be such, but that's how he seemed to have come across (which may have been why everyone at the event ignored him), and will, of course, shut my yap if presented with requested PF.


[mod]Please don't insult other players.[/mod]

[Seriphyn]

Not to sure if you're calling myself or my character a twit (the latter of which is often valid and correct), but I'm not sure one would expect "waltz" from a faction that has its primary naming scheme after Persian/Arabic styles, whereas we know the Gallenteans are former monarchists with a name scheme based off French, English, Germanic and Italian styles (eg. Harner and Villore systems). Even the awful French reference re: the Gallente that has been removed. Then the word "masque" is French, and the whole concept of a masquerade was developed in France. Without the lolfrench thing, for example, the styles of extravagant, multi-coloured costumes and hedonism definitely sounds Gallentean to me.

Anyway, regarding the original point...why is this IC hostile action receiving so much OOC scrutiny? Plenty of others that are ignored by this forum, even ones that could arguably have much more direct and antagonistic OOC motivations. Here, I both OOC disagree with the whole letting Sansha-dine-with-Amarr thing, as per Mizhara's original statement regarding immersion, and so does Seriphyn. Lest one forgets what Nation did to him and all...

Regarding "exclusionism", I do not expect Seriphyn to be permitted to any event run by the Caldari for example. Why should he? I'm certainly not going to complain about it.


[mod]Largely off topic. Feel free to post in the new thread about dance.[/mod]

[Ashar Kor-Azor]

Ashar, this isn't a discussion about moral relativism. I simply made the point that with such an abundance of zealots and ultranationalists in the the community, it's not much of a surprise that this kind of exclusiveness becomes commonplace.

-Start an interesting discussion.
-Someone responds with an interesting statement, ask them a follow-up question to gather an opinion from an experienced party.
-Be told that the discussion you started will brook no deviations from the likes of a foul beast of your nature.

¬_¬

This is an open discussion, Kaleigh. If you don't want to answer questions I put to you, I'll live. However, seeing as I've as much freedom to frame questions as anyone else here, I'll thank you to simply decline to comment next time.

[mod]The appropriate response to an off-topic post is to not respond and report it if you feel the need. Please try not to characterize other people's positions in inflammatory ways.[/mod]

...why is this IC hostile action receiving so much OOC scrutiny?

Because on a player level it was handled in a fashion people considered hamhanded. It would be best to learn from this and avoid its mistakes in the future instead of trying to defend one's own mistake for the sake of a belief in one's capacities.

You irked some people, they told you about it, we live and learn.

People are justified in feeling irritation when you irritate them. Don't commit to contrivations of this sort again, in public or private, and you may not draw this response again.

[mod]Please avoid characterizing people's actions as 'contrived.' None of us are ultimately the arbiter of what is appropriate in RP, all of us are, and the expression of that is how much people continue to rate interaction.[/mod]

Regarding "exclusionism", I do not expect Seriphyn to be permitted to any event run by the Caldari for example. Why should he? I'm certainly not going to complain about it.

It does not follow that no-one else will object to something because you choose to make no complaints of it, or find you have no complaints to make. This is important to remember.

[Kaleigh Doyle]

Ashar, this isn't a discussion about moral relativism. I simply made the point that with such an abundance of zealots and ultranationalists in the the community, it's not much of a surprise that this kind of exclusiveness becomes commonplace.

-Start an interesting discussion.
-Someone responds with an interesting statement, ask them a follow-up question to gather an opinion from an experienced party.
-Be told that the discussion you started will brook no deviations from the likes of a foul beast of your nature.

¬_¬

This is an open discussion, Kaleigh. If you don't want to answer questions I put to you, I'll live. However, seeing as I've as much freedom to frame questions as anyone else here, I'll thank you to simply decline to comment next time.

In the future, if you're looking for a productive response, a) don't inject a perspective I don't hold and then ask me why I'm thinking differently, and b) Don't make assumptions about my state of mind. (whether I'm being defensive or not)

Thanks.


[mod]Off-topic. If there is an issue with someone's post, please report it.[/mod]

[Ashar Kor-Azor]

There is little justification for comparisons between the behavior of nation-states, which operate with a certain set of political and diplomatic principles that relate to matters of note to nation states, with the behavior of capsuleers.

I feel you're drawing such comparisons simply because you feel it's the only game in town so far as analogies go. This doesn't make them useful comparisons.


[mod]I would suggest that rather than tearing down other people's analogies, you find more useful ones. "I think a better analogy would be..."[/mod]

[Seriphyn]

I don't think "waltz" would even exist that far into the future and so detached from Earth, no. I would have personally developed something completely unique for the Amarr that may have been similar, but not be derivative of an RL dance. You wouldn't expect the Caldari to have ballet, for example.

...why is this IC hostile action receiving so much OOC scrutiny?

Because on a player level it was handled in a fashion people considered hamhanded. It would be best to learn from this and avoid its mistakes in the future instead of trying to defend one's own mistake for the sake of a belief in one's capacities.

You irked some people, they told you about it, we live and learn.

People are justified in feeling irritation when you irritate them. Don't commit to contrivations of this sort again, in public or private, and you may not draw this response again.

Again, so many hostile IC actions occur ALL THE TIME with OOC dickheadedness to it. Is it easier to scrutinize and criticize this specific action because it's just one player and his character in his own camp? I don't have the backing of my own clique or RP group, for example, at least not those who would publically RP or appear on this forum.
[mod]Response to modded post. Feel free to repost the sections about dance to the new thread.[/mod]

[Ashar Kor-Azor]

Waltzes and other heritage art forms have surprising longevity, but for anyone that decides to bring up cataclysms and millenia, I'll simply say that it is perfectly safe and devoid of harm to introduce a number of different cultural elements into the setting if they deal with activities and not ill-fitting conceptions.

I can understand the urge to grouse about it - everyone likes to bellyache. However, aside from statements regarding first stones being let fly and how most would be hard-pressed to keep themselves from using some degree of borrowed concept, generally one cribbed from life, I will simply ask someone to come up with a credible reason not to include anything moderately fun.

As for Seri's recent shift to this position, if this rhetorical position was the primary one he stood behind before he began to grope for defenses on a topic of this relatively low degree of importance, he'd have begun with it.

Also it could be argued that as members of the militia KotMC and PIE are at least as much official entities as an Olympic team.

Money where your mouth is, Rodj. Do it. We'll decide if you've shouldered the burden of proof.

[stubborn refusal to learn from past mistakes, urge to keep talking about oneself]

When you're loud and public and intend to lead, it's important to take criticism and apply it.

You've already admitted to doing something for an out of character reason with less than noble goals.

You've just called yourself or your behavior dickheaded.

How much more maneuvering are you going to attempt before you try to learn from this? Hint: there's nothing left to maneuver for. There's nothing to save. There's no position to defend. There never was.

I would urge you to go with the sentiment of your first post in the thread as it currently stands. You may then be pleasantly surprised if people wind up putting themselves on your side of the fence.
[mod]Please don't insult other players, even if you've percieved them to insult themselves. Please don't make statements as to the worthiness of other people's RP.[/mod]

[Kaleigh Doyle]

I thought this was a general discussion, not a specific assault on seriphyn. Whether he deserves it or not, maybe sticking to the general topic rather than the specific post in particular should be encouraged?
[mod]Please report problem posts to the mods, and don't respond to them.[/mod]

[Silver Night]

[mod]I've tried to make a short comment to point out most of the issues that lead to moderation. As it is, I left quite a bit of stuff in the thread, and didn't lock it, because it's clearly a subject people feel a strong need to discuss. I'll quote some bits of the guidelines that apply variously to parts of the modded content:

Respect other users of Backstage@EVE-Inspiracy.com. Do not make attacks, either in the forums or through Private Messages. Challenging ideas is fine, but do not attack individuals or groups.

Don't troll. This has a working definition of "attempting to be as annoying as possible while still technically obeying the rules," and it's not the way to go about getting attention. Attempting to derail threads, posting off-topic bullshit, or flame-baiting are all verboten.

This forum is an OOC place for EVE roleplayers to discuss the game and roleplaying. It is a place to exchange ideas and share information. It is a place for positive, polite debate. It is a place for discussion, not arguments. It is a place for civil and courteous conversation. It is not a place for flamewars, bullying, point-scoring or other asshattery. (The Mods reserve the right to define 'asshattery' as behaviour not in line with the forum's purpose). It is not a place for people to show how 'wrong' others are. It is not a place for the ventilation of personal vendettas. It is not a place for insults, either veiled or explicit. It is not a place for telling other people they are 'doing it wrong". It is not a place to carry on In Character feuds. You are here as the player, not the as the character. We expect that, regardless of the personality of your character, you will behave as an adult and respect the other members of this community. Racist, sexist and homophobic remarks will not be tolerated. Ad hominem attacks will not be tolerated. Communication takes two: please consider the feelings of others here both in what you say and in how you interpret what others say. Please bear in mind that if someone doesn't seem to get your point, the fault may be as much in your writing as their reading, and try phrasing your opinion more clearly.

Actually, I would just suggest reading the whole FAQ. There are posts here that violate the better part of the entire culture section to begin with.[/mod]