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[Seriphyn]

Yeah, can I just say (again) that I don't agree that I have been OOC exclusionist  . Sansha RPers will profess myself having RP'd with them...it's the only way to keep Seri's hate going. 

[Senn Typhos]

Hate is a valid means of IC interaction. My memory has never been fantastic, but I know Senn already traded sparks with a few Intaki locals in local chat, not to mention the last ANSH public announcement. Both of these were instances of, I don't know what we should call it, "aggressive" RP.

There's a difference between that, typical IGS dramatics of "you're evil and I hate your face," and what I think is the crux of the problem here, which is an OOC ban due to IC differences.

Yes, Sansha loyalists at a KOTMC event would be kinda strange. So what should happen is, the Sanshas are addressed ICly and turned away at the door, or allowed in on conditions of nonviolence. Banning them from the channel is a statement against the player. When someone's been annoying or disruptive, they can be banned or muted. So if a Sansha loyalist went into the party anyway and fired "I Heart Kuvakei" shirts into the crowd with a t-shirt gun, THAT would be grounds to ban them. That was the PLAYER being disruptive.

But the player is not the character. So if the character is legitimately asking entry, turn them away ICly if you want. But don't tell the player to fuck off because you hate their character.

[Seriphyn]

Yes, Sansha loyalists at a KOTMC event would be kinda strange. So what should happen is, the Sanshas are addressed ICly and turned away at the door, or allowed in on conditions of nonviolence. Banning them from the channel is a statement against the player. When someone's been annoying or disruptive, they can be banned or muted. So if a Sansha loyalist went into the party anyway and fired "I Heart Kuvakei" shirts into the crowd with a t-shirt gun, THAT would be grounds to ban them. That was the PLAYER being disruptive.

That's exactly what Seriphyn pursued by turning up at the event and mouthing off. Social exclusion not by banhamm0rz, but by actively RPing and being like "Kick these fuckers out, yo"

[Rodj Blake]

Would David Cameron be welcome at a party held in Tripoli by Colonel Gadaffi?

Would the two of them laugh and joke while enjoying cocktails?

[Laerise [PIE]]

Hate is a valid means of IC interaction. My memory has never been fantastic, but I know Senn already traded sparks with a few Intaki locals in local chat, not to mention the last ANSH public announcement. Both of these were instances of, I don't know what we should call it, "aggressive" RP.

There's a difference between that, typical IGS dramatics of "you're evil and I hate your face," and what I think is the crux of the problem here, which is an OOC ban due to IC differences.

Yes, Sansha loyalists at a KOTMC event would be kinda strange. So what should happen is, the Sanshas are addressed ICly and turned away at the door, or allowed in on conditions of nonviolence. Banning them from the channel is a statement against the player. When someone's been annoying or disruptive, they can be banned or muted. So if a Sansha loyalist went into the party anyway and fired "I Heart Kuvakei" shirts into the crowd with a t-shirt gun, THAT would be grounds to ban them. That was the PLAYER being disruptive.

But the player is not the character. So if the character is legitimately asking entry, turn them away ICly if you want. But don't tell the player to fuck off because you hate their character.

How is banning someone from an IC channel all of a sudden an OOC action? 

[Kybernetes Moros]

My stance is pretty simple, as much as I find myself uncertain on 'exclusionist RP' for the reasons people mentioned earlier about 'If someone pisses you off, avoid them as much as you can' and so on.

IC and OOC interaction are divorced; unless disruptive on some OOC level, banning characters from an IC channel for IC reasons seems kinda weird. Similarly, people allowing Sansha loyalists into empire-aligned venues (or Caldari into Gallente, Cartel into Minmatar, or any pairing you care to pick) is a result of some IC judgement about whether they should or shouldn't be permitted entry, and on what conditions they are if so.

Like in reality, some people will be more aggressive towards the people they dislike ("Grr! I frown on you! Leave this place!") whereas others dislike people to similar degrees but use that differently ("Mmf. Fine. Come on in, but don't cause a hassle -- and maybe I can use this as a PR opportunity myself..."). I don't see it as overly immersion breaking, but hey, if people take OOC offense at being kicked out of somewhere IC, something's wrong somewhere, IMO. All in the name of fun RP, etc. etc. :U

[Orthic]

How is banning someone from an IC channel all of a sudden an OOC action? 

Some of us like to lurk. That said, it's an IC channel, and if they've been banned from showing up IC, I don't see a problem with removing them from the channel, even if they're not the kind of fools to show up anyways.

[Silas Vitalia]

I've found the KOTMC IC issues the last few weeks to be completely engaging and worthwhile. I like them all OOC just fine, especially Farel, Mintor, and all the others.

A few points since i've been seen as one of the ones instigating/enflaming some of these issues.

Choices and associations we make IC have consequences, IC. There are any number of fantastic RP channels, groups, etc that I simply cannot interact with very much IC due to years of political associations. That is unfortunate for me, but this is how it works. If we don't respect those decisions and give them the proper weight and consequences, it looks incredibly silly.  If you don't want to have those consequences, then be a neutral character and go with that. If your group or your character are on one side of an issue you can be assured there will be plenty on the other side. No one is forcing anyone to do anything, these are all choices we make/have made IC.

That KOTMC is a liberal organization is fantastic, more power to them, the more breadth and range we have in Amarr RP the better.  But if they expect not to be attacked and have to defend themselves either chat wise or pvp wise due to those beliefs then I'm sorry but that is kind of ridiculous.

The IC issue is one of 'setting' or location.  If say, the New Eden Assembly hosts a party, that's actually a great opportunity to socialize with political enemies, as the location is enforced as neutral and expressly set up for those sorts of opposites to be able to act cordially, by definition.  It would be reasonable to expect any number of awkward but still IC-acceptable interactions in such a place.

But if say UshraK'han holds a freedom fighter party and Silas shows up and spends half the night drinking with the Brutors and dancing the night away, then I would fully expect the RPers to be giving both Silas and Ushra Khan the riot act IC, publicly, privately, all over the place, with probably some shots fired over it eventually.

My point being I find 0 issues with how this has been transpiring so far, and kudos for the KOTMC for pushing all the right buttons IC.  How much of that has been intentional I can't speculate on but it's been incredibly interesting.

[Jev North]

Would David Cameron be welcome at a party held in Tripoli by Colonel Gadaffi?

Would the two of them laugh and joke while enjoying cocktails?

I'm not sure about what goes on at the good Colonel's parties, but.. mh. If Cameron actually bothered to show up at the door, do you think he'd be turned down? Why?

[Inara Subaka]

Well, I tend to agree that exclusionist RP is valid, in fact I'd say necessary to a degree. It's to the nature Rodj mentioned, some entities simply do not 'mesh'.

What would happen if the Empress wanted to visit and watch Elder council party? Or on a smaller scale, what happens when a CONCORD labeled pirate attempts to do business with a law abiding entity like PIE? And I highly doubt a Federal high-class party would be open to having State contracted military people showing up for a drink...

However, the imposing entity has the right to attempt to 'party crash' as long as they are prepared to be shown the door in a less than polite fassion (IC).

The major thing to keep in mind... the characters may not like each other and go ouut of their way to make life miserable for each other, but that doesn't mean the players hate each other and they're just playing a game. I've blown up people I like because that's what my characters would do, but that doesn't mean I'm attacking the player.

[Ulphus]

To me, it's a matter of immersion. My immersion sure as hell fall through the cracks in the fourth wall when convenience and metagaming takes charge and characters change or circumstances change as a result. Sometimes in ways that just don't make sense, all in the name of said convenience.

For the sake of convenience and metagaming you'll see people that should have been pretty much shunned get hugglefucked whenever and wherever they appear with little consequence nor any raised eyebrows. Characters choosing certain loyalties and promoting allegiance and support for outcast factions and views never seem to pay the price for it, do they?

Much as Miz may be surprised, I actually agree with this a lot. I have difficulty imagining how a social situation would work where someone is trying to shoot you in the afternoon and have drinks with you in the evening.

And some of the conflicts of Eve are a little on the impolite side to let slip for an evening, if you care at all about the people who aren't podders who suffer in them.

(That doesn't mean that I don't like chatting with people in OOC that I don't talk to IC; Actually, I'm more likely to avoid people IC after talking to them OOC than vice versa)


Brainflash (probably caused by influenza-generated-hallucinations):
There's this 6 part miniseries called "The Edge of Darkness" done by the BBC where the final episode had Craven and Jedburgh (The British Cop and the CIA agent) involved in a gunfight with people sent to kill them. It's complicated, but there is a conflict between business and government  involving people being murdered, activist organisations corrupted, critical masses of plutonium being stolen, and used to make political points.

The gunfight scene, (as I remember it) is interspersed with shots of a dinner party where the government bureaucrats who have been on one side of this conflict are having a black-tie dinner with the corporate CEOs who were on the other side of the conflict (One of whom is probably dying of radiation poisoning because of the actions of the cop and the CIA agent). I personally took this to be a sign that all the murders and lies were just maneuvering in a corporate-jockeying-for-influence game, and that while the loose ends were being "tidied up", they were congratulating each other for a game well played.

I just had an image of Ulf and Esna sitting around a table at the Last Gate being scrupulously polite to each other in exactly the same way... <shudder> Ulf in a bow tie? Nah....

[Esna Pitoojee]

Brainflash (probably caused by influenza-generated-hallucinations):
There's this 6 part miniseries called "The Edge of Darkness" done by the BBC where the final episode had Craven and Jedburgh (The British Cop and the CIA agent) involved in a gunfight with people sent to kill them. It's complicated, but there is a conflict between business and government  involving people being murdered, activist organisations corrupted, critical masses of plutonium being stolen, and used to make political points.

The gunfight scene, (as I remember it) is interspersed with shots of a dinner party where the government bureaucrats who have been on one side of this conflict are having a black-tie dinner with the corporate CEOs who were on the other side of the conflict (One of whom is probably dying of radiation poisoning because of the actions of the cop and the CIA agent). I personally took this to be a sign that all the murders and lies were just maneuvering in a corporate-jockeying-for-influence game, and that while the loose ends were being "tidied up", they were congratulating each other for a game well played.

I just had an image of Ulf and Esna sitting around a table at the Last Gate being scrupulously polite to each other in exactly the same way... <shudder> Ulf in a bow tie? Nah....

Difference being that Esna has held a "no first engagement" policy for a long time. I'm entirely serious about this - have to talk about this in more detail some time.

But I digress... anyhow, I think Morwen hit it on the head here: While there is legitimacy to Seriphyn's IC complaint, the fact was that the invitation indicated that some enemies of the Empire might very well be present. That, combined with the other points Morwen brought up lends the whole thing an heir of baseless troublemaking that a lot of players have trouble ignoring.

Meanwhile, to answer the OP, I think faction-insular RP would drain a lot of the enjoyment from RP. It'd turn the whole thing into a sort of IC echo box.

[Valdezi]

See even after that OOC post thing from Seri, I still think he did the right thing - he did what his character would do.

I think him blowing up about it on IGS was the right thing, I think KotMC telling him that he's an idiot is the right thing and I think that PIE disassociating themselves from KotMC is the right thing.

Actually, I'm not sure I see what the big deal is. It's all an IC interaction, even if Seri (somewhat unwisely) mused about it OOC beforehand.

[Inara Subaka]

See even after that OOC post thing from Seri, I still think he did the right thing - he did what his character would do.

I think he blowing up about it on IGS was the right thing, I think KotMC telling him that he's an idiot is the right thing and I think that PIE disassociating themselves from KotMC is the right thing.

Actually, I'm not sure I see what the big deal is. It's all an IC interaction, even if Seri (somewhat unwisely) mused about it OOC beforehand.

^^^

IC it's a clusterf***, OOC it's an excuse for good RP. And while I'm not involved in this directly, I'm definitely enjoying watching the 'story' as it unfolds. Cheers to KotMC.


Edit: Cheers to Seri, PIE, and the Sansha folks too. All parties are doing things that would be expected from them IC; KotMC being quite liberal, Seri calling them on it because they're 'consorting with the enemy', PIE for being conservative/distancing from the liberals, and the Sansha folks for stirring the pot (whether it's intentional or just a 'happy by-product' of doing what you do).

[Ulphus]

Meanwhile, to answer the OP, I think faction-insular RP would drain a lot of the enjoyment from RP. It'd turn the whole thing into a sort of IC echo box.

I dunno. The Amarrian block has recently demonstrated that there's quite a lot of potential conflict within their single faction; it looks quite a lot of fun.

And in the past there's been quite a lot of RP infighting in the Matari faction; It's just more subtle than the Matari/Amarr conflicts.