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[Seriphyn]

I've been doing the Gallente Epic Arc and been paying attention more to the fiction and storyline provided. Now, I haven't done the other epic arcs, but it is likely the darkest of them all. In it, you have prostitution, child labour, and a hinted-at combination of the two.

Here's some of the quotes you hear flying to various venues at "The Underground Circus"

Overheard from Bloodsport Arena: "Let me look at that tiger over there. How easy are they to tie up?"

Overheard from Gallente Outpost: "I can’t believe how much ISK you’re asking for that. Are you sure she’s a virgin?"

Overheard from Pleasure Hub:"The best part about this circus is all the exotic things you meet, and all the wonderful things you can screw."

Overheard from Casino: "I’ll get the money to you tomorrow. I swear I’m good for it. Please, let me see my daughter again."

Overheard from Pleasure Hub: "What happens in the circus, stays in the circus. Let me happen to you."

Last one's pretty funny. Anyway, I chose a different mission this time around, centered around finding clues in a child labour factory about the kidnapping of Justin Beiber a Senator's son popular amongst the 12-16 female demographic. Once you destroy the first group, there is an impressive set of chain reaction explosions...

“We lost another hub. The charges were not stored properly, and a chain reaction got to the ignition core. Do you have any idea how much money that cost us?”

“Try to be more subtle with your ‘accidents’ next time, Azoen. It’s expensive to replace these kids.”

I found that pretty tasteless, but then again I'm easily offended in the realm of kid-killing, and have infinite tolerance for any other form of violence. What do people think?

[Casiella]

I think it fits the setting. Think about the Chronicles and some of the other missions, and you have some fairly dark stuff.

[Ken]

There's well written evil and then there's just throwing horrible things out there for shock value.  What offends me isn't kid-killing, sex slavery, human trafficking, or any of the other horrible things we human animals tend do to one another.  What offends me is, once a writer has made the decision to handle one of those topics in a project, their doing so in a tasteless or even casual manner.  And, imo, there is virtually no way to appropriately handle really grave things like that in a few sentences in the middle of a mission.  I'm with Seri on this case, but object primarily to the form and presentation, not necessarily the content.

[Kaleigh Doyle]

Well...ok. I dunno about anyone else, but what disturbs me most is:

  "Evil" can only be respected when written in a manner that clearly displays the author's personal distaste and respect for the sensitivity of "tough" topics like child slavery, murder, and prostitution. Nevermind the fact that genocide/mass murder is a daily occurance in New Eden, when a child dies the boundaries of civility and taste are torn asunder!

Earth, circa 2011 A.D., sees child exploitation and brutality on a daily basis in some parts of the world, yet when depicted in a 'dark' future with the same 'real' themes, the authors are assumed to be 'trying too hard' to make their world 'dark and gritty'. Maturity lies in understanding these situations happen in the real world, not to get confrontational when they are presented in our fantasy universe where we don't like uncomfortable subjects tossed under our noses. You can't ask for 'realism' in your roleplay and then get upset when it breaches unpleasant areas.

Making assumptions that the author is 'just throwing horrible things out there for shock value' and 'trying too hard' are as bad as making judgements about the motivations of other players and the subjects they choose to roleplay about. Timmy only roleplays an amarrian slaver because he likes to violate children! Johnny is being racist because he makes his minmatar talk like a jamaican accent! I can tolerate other people's sensibilities when it comes to topics, because different subjects affect different people in all sorts of ways, but when we start drawing lines that don't exist simply because they don't fit our rationale is an illogical path to follow.

Those are just some of my observations.

[Graelyn]

Pfft.

Get over it.

[Senn Typhos]

Grimdark setting, best setting.

Turn it up to 11, says I.

[Seriphyn]

Grimdark away, and although this isn't a terrible case, it's no excuse to just have, for example, random, OTT, overly-explicit and completely unnecessary fictional descriptions of murder/rape/whatever.

It just becomes cheap.

[Casiella]

Seriphyn and Ken, what would you consider an appropriate way to handle those themes in the game? Or should they just stay totally off-limits?

[Ken]

"Evil" can only be respected when written in a manner that clearly displays the author's personal distaste and respect for the sensitivity of "tough" topics like child slavery, murder, and prostitution. Nevermind the fact that genocide/mass murder is a daily occurance in New Eden, when a child dies the boundaries of civility and taste are torn asunder!

The author does not have be preachy or include an instructive moral message in order to depict people doing morally objectionable things in a way that is tasteful.

Earth, circa 2011 A.D., sees child exploitation and brutality on a daily basis in some parts of the world, yet when depicted in a 'dark' future with the same 'real' themes, the authors are assumed to be 'trying too hard' to make their world 'dark and gritty'. Maturity lies in understanding these situations happen in the real world, not to get confrontational when they are presented in our fantasy universe where we don't like uncomfortable subjects tossed under our noses. You can't ask for 'realism' in your roleplay and then get upset when it breaches unpleasant areas.

I believe it is possible to depict uncomfortable subjects in a meaningful, realistic, and valuable way that adds something to a story (see Silence of the Lambs, Boys Don't Cry, Schindler's List, the airport level in CoD:MW2, etc.).  I believe it is also possible to depict them in an off-hand, unrefined, and noncontextualized way that renders the experience valueless (see any number of exploitation films, Manhunt, Japan's rape games, etc.).  Both styles can be realistic, and while granting that either is able to achieve realism and many consumers (myself included) favor realistic media, it does not follow that one "can't" object if the experience is ultimately deemed unpleasant.

Making assumptions that the author is 'just throwing horrible things out there for shock value' and 'trying too hard' are as bad as making judgements about the motivations of other players and the subjects they choose to roleplay about. Timmy only roleplays an amarrian slaver because he likes to violate children! Johnny is being racist because he makes his minmatar talk like a jamaican accent! I can tolerate other people's sensibilities when it comes to topics, because different subjects affect different people in all sorts of ways, but when we start drawing lines that don't exist simply because they don't fit our rationale is an illogical path to follow.

It's not an assumption, it's a judgement.  Any of us is allowed to judge the quality of the entertainment content we consume, and should be especially free to do so when we're paying for it.  Moreover, we should be careful not to confuse the works of fellow roleplayers with the game's official script.

I am curious how you would reconcile a professed tolerance of other people's sensibilities with the statement that acting on those sensibilities in this case is arbitrary and illogical.

Seriphyn and Ken, what would you consider an appropriate way to handle those themes in the game? Or should they just stay totally off-limits?

Violence and horrible things are part of my daily existence and encountering them in a video game really doesn't compare to the real thing.  I think the 'grimdark' is a crucial part of EVE's character and its success and very much appreciate that CCP is willing to include in their world many topics that most game companies would stay well away from.  It is the form, rather than the content, to which I objected after reading Seri's quote dump.  Now, I haven't flown the Gallente epic arc personally, so there may be some contextual reinforcement for:

I can’t believe how much ISK you’re asking for that. Are you sure she’s a virgin?

I do not know if there is.  However, it seems to me that short NPC blurbs in your local chat while running a mission is the least artful tool for reminding the player that New Eden is a cruel, realistic universe with all the accompanied blemishes and scars.

[Kaleigh Doyle]

Yay, quotes!

The author does not have be preachy or include an instructive moral message in order to depict people doing morally objectionable things in a way that is tasteful.

I...never implied they did.

I believe it is possible to depict uncomfortable subjects in a meaningful, realistic, and valuable way that adds something to a story (see Silence of the Lambs, Boys Don't Cry, Schindler's List, the airport level in CoD:MW2, etc.).  I believe it is also possible to depict them in an off-hand, unrefined, and noncontextualized way that renders the experience valueless (see any number of exploitation films, Manhunt, Japan's rape games, etc.).  Both styles can be realistic, and while granting that either is able to achieve realism and many consumers (myself included) favor realistic media, it does not follow that one "can't" object if the experience is ultimately deemed unpleasant.

Exploitation films, Manhunt, and Hentai rape games are not realistic for anyone (I hope). They are absurd, which is why they aren't taken seriously, or considered tasteful. The realism of a scene, an ability for the audience to connect with characters/situations in a film at SOME level, is part of what makes a story meaningful and adds some substance to it.

Obviously, you can object and have your own opinions about whatever you want. I may not agree with them and find them illogical.

I mean, at the crux of the discussion, the question is whether this content adds to the gritty nature of the universe or is over the top. I, personally, feel that people object to certain depictions of situations that happen in reality, regardless of how well they are done, because they don't like having to face the reality that it ever happens. I think it's a knee-jerk, politically-correct response, and I like to point out that if you're going to mass murder, don't pretend all the other uncomfortable stuff doesn't happen either. I wasn't making a personal statement about your viewpoints on the matter, even if they may overlap.

It's not an assumption, it's a judgement.  Any of us is allowed to judge the quality of the entertainment content we consume, and should be especially free to do so when we're paying for it.  Moreover, we should be careful not to confuse the works of fellow roleplayers with the game's official script.

I am curious how you would reconcile a professed tolerance of other people's sensibilities with the statement that acting on those sensibilities in this case is arbitrary and illogical.

How? I present an alternative viewpoint in the hope they see mine, and maybe we can learn from it. Otherwise, I make my point and move on.

[Mizhara]

I think you also need to remember who the majority of Eve's mission runners and players are. It's not the roleplayers or the more 'cerebral' of the players that constitutes the majority of the people who'll be running this mission. While Eve's playerbase is in general a step up from most MMOs, having CCP's writers do these things more subtly would indeed make it more powerful - as in having to double-take and go 'wait.. he didn't mean... he did. Shit. That's grimdark!' - but would also mean the majority of the players would never get the references.

I don't mind this at all. I've been seeing the results of some of the most vicious and evil things a human can do to another in the military service, in security and now as a paramedic. I've treated wives, children and others who have been made victims... and I don't mind this. Why? Because even though I'd prefer a higher standard of writing in these missions, I'd rather they were rough gems with the potential for shiny than just lumps of coal.

In Eve, that means it needs to be downright horrifying.

[Amann Karris]

My problems with this are simple:

If the "Grimdark" becomes every-day-reality, it looses it's punch.  The way it is handled in most of what I have seen in EVE seems very flippant, if only because it's so pervasive.

It becomes Emperor Palpatine standing next to Lois Griffin going "Good, good!  Give in to your hate!" as Cleveland and Quagmire fight (/Family Guy Reference)  The "Big Bads" become mustache twirling villains, using "air quotes" to "emphasize" their "code words" which aren't really "code words" because the "context" is completely known by the audience.

You want Grimdark?

Grimdark version of Bond:

Bond: "Do you expect me to..."
*bang*
/bond

Grimdark can be achieved without using "cheap tricks" of kids, animals, and any combination thereof.

A simple example of Grimdark?

Mission: investigate a distress signal.

Popup:

As your ship drops out of warp, you see it.  A ship is adrift in the dark, empty, endless night.  Too far away from the star to get a good look, Aura alerts you to as weak signal being broadcast from somewhere within the lifeless husk.

"This is the...
**static**
I don't know how long we've been adrift...
**static**
started eating...
**static**
they're coming for me!  Gods and Spirits, he's found me!  Someone, anyone, please..."

The message repeats.

Aura:
"I think this is a good time to mention that multiple Rogue Drones have emerged from the wreck.  I suggest we do something about this, I would rather we not explode just yet."

Halfway through the battle:
Popup:

Aura:
I have detected a short bandwidth transmission emanating from inside the derelict ship, and have just decrypted the message.

"Hello, are you there?"
"Why didn't you help me?"
"I've been waiting here, waiting so long."
"Why didn't you stop him?
"WHY WON'T YOU ANSWER ME"

Aura:
I wonder, is it possible that the distress massage we received is from a rogue AI?

After the mission, a body is found in the wreckage of the largest drone in the encounter.

Item: Hybridized Body
Description: This body has been badly mangled, but the head is mostly intact.  Artificial analogs of organs supply vital fluids and nutrients to the loathsome being.  A cursory examination shows that the body is that of the communications officer of the {ship you were sent to locate (possibly missing for years)}.  As his eyes blink, and his mouth moves, you realize the shocking truth; he has been alive all this time!

Another?

A father asks you to locate his daughter.  The daughter is 22 years old, and is important in some way (the father doesn't say how).  If she is unwilling to return, you are to use whatever means necessary to get her back.  During the course of the mission, the daughter is killed (by no fault of yours).  The payout seems inexplicably high in relation to the actual specifics given, and you receive a message from the father.

The kicker?  The father doesn't care that she is dead, and is only enraged by the idea that you didn't return the body for a "proper" burial.  See, he was planning on using her death as a springboard for showcasing the immorality of current Amarrian society, and how only he can show the Empire the proper path...

However, you never hear that last part.  Maybe somewhere down the line you recognize the name in a news article, about how this individual started speaking out about the "wickedness of the Capsuleers and their CONCORD benefactors" and "corruption within CONCORD and the Amarrian Empire".

How do you feel?  Is it justified given the situation?

However, everyone's vision of Grimdark is different.  I've also never thought that EVE should necessarily be Grimdark; my vote has always been for moral ambiguity and questioning of the "rights and wrongs" in the different cultures of New Eden.

But really, in a world where countless lives can be lost in huge planetary invasions, all under the guise of "uplifting" the common man to a greater purpose, doesn't that say something about the society as a whole?  Would anyone really blink an eye at the loss of a few innocents?  I'm sure everyone's answer is going to be different:  Shades of gray FTW. 

I mean, I could go into a long diatribe about how suffering occurs in the real world every day, and arguing the "realism" of such in a game is...

...yeah I will in fact end it there.     I love you guys, flaws and faults and eccentricities aside.

[Mizhara]

Amann Karris makes a good point. I will have to agree that the majority of the missions and such in Eve needs to be a bit subtle and unnerving rather than mustache twirling evil. Still... I think there's a place in Eve for the right in your face, no doubts, no questions or vagueness downright nasty evil and disgusting shit. It doesn't have to be everywhere, and indeed it isn't, but once in a while it doesn't hurt to see some of it on display.

After all, no one can say that epic arc in the op is the norm, after all. It's an example of the few times where it's really ground in your face without shame, and I honestly think we need that once in a while in Eve.

After all, we do have some very selfless missions and factions too... well... as far as the public knows.

* Mizhara shifty eyes and mutters something about tinfoil hats and teeth.

[Ken]

How? I present an alternative viewpoint in the hope they see mine, and maybe we can learn from it. Otherwise, I make my point and move on.

It seemed contradictory from where I'm sitting.  I think my objection to your response stems primarily from the impression that you think Seri, myself, or any one else who might take issue with the OP's quoted content or something like it would be doing so out of "a knee-jerk, politically-correct response" and/or because we prefer not to admit that the real world is a cruel place where such meaningless tragedies happen all the time and no one swoops in to save the day.  I know the world is like it.  What I look for in fiction is a writer who can find meaning in and skillfully portray that 'grimdark' for the consumer in a way that adds value to the experience without cheapening the tragedy.  I feel that the attempt failed miserably in this case.

Miz is probably right in that CCP could pull off the same thing with much more talent, but, keeping in mind the majority of their player base, have decided to go with the lowest common denominator and throw it right out there in our faces.  The form of the message is the problem.  Amann makes an excellent point by saying that the commonplace 'grimdark' (indeed, any story element) becomes in the game, the less punch it has.

[Casiella]

Ken, I didn't mean that as a criticism but as a way of extending the conversation. I understand and respect the fact that you (and other people here) deal with RL grimdark. My question is simply, "how could CCP do it?"