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[Graanvlokkie]

SDII is a bit different. There is absolutely no way both IC or OOC you can prove or disprove ... Even if CCP came out with an FIO character and said "No, Seriphyn is not a member of the FIO", that is still not proof,

"I am descendant from purple space dragons! Prove me wrong!"

Shouldn't it be more about creating something that is believable to the players OOC, as not to break immersion?

If there was a post claiming that Seri was the leader of the SDII, IC I couldn't prove that Seri isn't, and there my be good evidence IC pointing to this as a fact, but OOC a claim like that would be a real immersion breaker for me.

Just because I cant produce good IC evidence to the contrary IC to disprove a claim doesn't mean that I dont know it is not like that at all OOC. This breaks immersion, the reason I roleplay and play the game.

[Senn Typhos]

"The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence" has never been a good way to go about determining what is true or false. I would have to agree with Graan, you can say anything you like about your character. The problem is that if its completely unbelievable and ruins the scene for the rest of the RP community, no one will listen.

[Vikarion]

I think we're getting dangerously close to "your RP is wrong".

No, actually, I think we hit that a page ago.

Honestly, I enjoyed the entire arc. Do I think it might have been more fun/realistic with the inclusion of a giant space battle? Sure. But apparently they rolled the dice, and that's not what happened. That doesn't bug me all that much, either - sometimes, rescue plans really do go off perfectly (albeit, very, very rarely).

What does bug me is how many people are quick to line up and tell Seri that he's wrong for adding dark to the Fed, that he's wrong for claiming some sort of connection to the Fed, and tell Niki that her story was god-modding and so on and so forth.

Geez.

They RPed an overzealous Federal operative crossing the line and losing the game. And now people are criticizing them for...what?

I honestly think the criticism here isn't so much over the trope they used, or an unlikely resolution, as much as it is based on personal likes and dislikes, and the irritation some have with seeing the (in their eyes) lily-white righteousness of the Federation sullied. Because, in my time in Eve, I've seen half a dozen similar plots, and people sure didn't get upset when someone was running from the State, or the Empire, or the Sansha, or whatnot, and when the characters weren't Seriphyn and Nikita.

People claim affiliation with NPC entities all the time. They also invent stories about escapes, captures, kidnappings, and persecution all the time. Why it is suddenly wrong now is a question worth answering.

[Bong-cha Jones]

I'm not really seeing much of people telling Seri he's wrong to play it dark, Vikarion.  I think the people who don't like this event don't like it for the reasons they've said they don't like it.  Gallente rpers have authored a pretty small proportion of the posts in this thread so far.  I doubt many of the people who've criticized the method of what happened have a dog in this race:  Amarrian loyalists, Blood Raiders, Matari and so on.

To add to the topic, I didn't like this event much largely because I felt the execution (on both sides) was a bit ham-handed.  Nothing wrong with the idea and it wasn't bad, just not something that drew me in.  When people who don't like each other collaborate and start using the material they're creating to take digs at each other, sloppiness seems inevitable.  Both players have produced better work on their own.  This just seemed like a bad matchup.

[Sabbott]

I think we're getting dangerously close to "your RP is wrong".

If you read my point of view in the two posts i made on page 3, I don't say what he did was "bad RP" or wrong, In fact i think it was pretty cool plotline and player RP arc for gallente, I just wanted to state theres better "way" to RP in eve than claiming your a operative of a NPC faction/corp etc. or basicly speaking for a NPC entity...

Why? its not very "respectfull" RP as it can gamebreak others RP/views who are loyalists to that faction/npc corp,, and I even made examples why its just not very good "way" to RP. But think it could of went off fine without even mentioning the NPC entity's. why should we have to?  

example: Its expected loyalists will have different methods or ways to support their faction/npc corps, one might burn a heretic they capture, others might bring them to trial etc, but its never in the NPC factions hands or stated they choose this path to the end game.

As Simon said, i have no dog in the race, It won't change much of anything for me if you accept or discredit my point of view.  I'm just giving my honest opinion on the matter.

[Seriphyn]

I'm slowly beginning to think the problems that arise with these RPing shenanigans is because I am, mostly, a "solo RPer". Publically, at the current time, I am the only one who is RPing such a viewpoint...I think this might cause the issues, but I can't exactly explain why...

Anyone care to agree, disgree or elaborate for me?

[Sabbott]

I'm slowly beginning to think the problems that arise with these RPing shenanigans is because I am, mostly, a "solo RPer". Publically, at the current time, I am the only one who is RPing such a viewpoint...I think this might cause the issues, but I can't exactly explain why...

Anyone care to agree, disgree or elaborate for me?

I'll elaberate.. Its not that your a solo RPer or a one of the kind, no not at all... did you read the 3 posts i typed out at all?  cause thats not where I was coming from, and certainly most others as i read it

Let me ask question in return, what kind of message did you get from what i typed in those 3 replys?

[Saede Riordan]

I'm slowly beginning to think the problems that arise with these RPing shenanigans is because I am, mostly, a "solo RPer". Publically, at the current time, I am the only one who is RPing such a viewpoint...I think this might cause the issues, but I can't exactly explain why...

Anyone care to agree, disgree or elaborate for me?

Let me see if I can provide an external example, I made the following posts, one on Nikita, one on Illuria, my alt, who, according to my RP, was the liaisons officer for RIA
http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1340749/page/1#1
http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1343331/page/1#2

You would not believe the flak I got for this, I think Naka is still angry at me over that, Aria defended me, but you see the point Naka is making? It took a while for me to see it but I did.
http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=671.msg7902#msg7902

Basically, its not anything your saying, its how you're saying it. You're effectively claiming you are PF, you are canon, you are this super special thing. No one is truly affiliated with the factions the way you (and I was) claiming to be here. Its a rather quick way to jump the shark as an RPer when you start claiming to know, be aligned with, or have inside knowledge regarding the NPCs. It breaks the bounds of character and world in a way thats damaging to the experiences of others.

[Graanvlokkie]

Just to respond to Vikarion and Seri, I did not mean to make it sound from my post that there was anything wrong with the RP. It was an interesting read and a well thought out concept. Something went wrong in the execution however.

I think I am in the same boat as Sabbot, who seems to be posting my ideas before I have thought of them.

Point is, that this type of faction RP could generate flames as it may be seen as Godmoding with an NPC faction. The story could have been so much better if the NPC's had been left out.

Also, I applaud Seri for his line of RP. Those feds ARE evil.

But at the same time I think there should be greater seperation between capsuleers, as they are RPed by us, and NPC's. When I read about how an NPC corp gives a capsuleer an NPC army to assult an NPC base to resuce some NPC's, my immersion hits hollow ground.

[Vikarion]

Well, the problem that Seri is facing here is pretty much frying pan and fire.

If he says "no, I'm not affiliated in any way with *insert x*, any attempts he makes to portray unsavory actions will be simply glossed over by die-hard proponents of the Fed-as-good-guys paradigm. In fact, it's likely that they'll claim that they are affiliated with some part of the Fed, and that the Fed officially condemns Seri. I've seen this happen before.

On the other hand, if Seri does claim even the most tenuous of connections, he is "god-moding" by some standards. But let's be honest - we all claim some connection to our faction of choice. Ghost Festival claimed to be a capsuleer experiment by the Dominations. Many Amarrian players - including many in PIE, claim to be Holders. Any time we try to create any connection between ourselves and the pre-written story, we engage in a bit of this by-fiat storytelling.

The difference between acceptable use of such and "god-moding" is one of degree. Ciarente created a planet and gave it its own culture and customs. Is it right to claim that since the Eve writers intended no such planet, Cia is "god-moding"? Hardly. Without some liberties being taken, there is no RP.

To say that Seriphyn couldn't find some agents somewhere willing to authorize his actions, in a Federation of trillions, seems odd. He's a capsuleer, insanely rich, and likely with some amount of influence. From an OOC perspective, it's a minor sin, certainly no more egregious than the claims Verone makes of actions taken against him by "lawful authorities", or Stitcher's claim that he was chased by the Provists, or the statements many of you pirates have in your bio's regarding CONCORDs files on you (after all, who are you to say what an NPC organization thinks of your characters, hmm?)

If Seri doesn't somehow tie his actions to a Federal NPC group, he will be quickly deprived of his "status" as a loyal Federation capsuleer by those unwilling to admit any faults in their own faction. So he, presumably without guile, came to reasonable conclusions as to what an NPC group might participate in, and made a story out of it. And it was interesting.

It's all very well and good to say that this isn't personal, but those statements ring rather hollow when you realize how often others do the same exact thing that Seri did, and are congratulated for their efforts. The reality is that somehow Seriphyn seems to get designated as an acceptable target because he irritates some people.

I'm not on a crusade for Seriphyn here. Frankly, my interest in this comes down to "well, that's not fair." And you who are criticizing Seriphyn, in the end, may be finding him at fault because he went two inches over your personal preference as to how one should use NPCs and background info.

Which, in the end, is "your RP is wrong".

And I understand, I really do, the desire to prevent someone from running over an NPC organization with fantastic changes to their nature - i.e., "the Theology Council has deposed Jamyl and crowned Vikarion Emperor!" or something similar. The difference is, again, one of degree. Seriphyn's storyline is not unreasonable, just as someone with a storyline of Provists beating up a Gallente tourist wouldn't be unreasonable.

Perhaps we could save our wrath for those who grossly offend?

EDIT: toned down some language and clarified some things.

[Ciarente]

But at the same time I think there should be greater seperation between capsuleers, as they are RPed by us, and NPC's. When I read about how an NPC corp gives a capsuleer an NPC army to assult an NPC base to resuce some NPC's, my immersion hits hollow ground.

I, and I'm sure many others, have grappled from time to time with the question of how to run a storyline that necessarily involves some NPCs or NPC corp to some extent - even if only because something happens on a station, and stations are run by corporations in Empire space.

I always try, now, to approach it as delicately and minimally as possible, bearing in mind that other players, many many other players, also have to interact with that corporation as part of their gameplay, and perhaps as part of  their RP. So the more important I make my character in that corporation's operations, the more I am godmodding anyone else who deals with that corporation in their relationship to my character.

With that in mind, I generally try to limit what happens to variations on what game mechanics make possible: obviously, game mechanics don't allow my character to trace non-podder characters, for example, because they don't exist IG, but if I can trace a podder, I don't think it's unreasonable to trace someone else.  I have good enough standing to get free shield repairs and pay no taxes on sales or refining? Then maybe I could push to the front of the queue of people waiting to see station management or get into station medical or whatever.

But I try, admittedly sometimes I get it wrong, to limit things to what won't affect other players, or force them to react in particular ways. Looking back eighteen months, I know I went over the line with a story that had a station being turned upside down in the search for a fugitive, including ships (not specified as non-podder ships) held and searched - but fortunately I got away with it and no-one pulled me up on it. I had another storyline, in which my character Hildegaard Russell reported a devastating biological attack carried out by another player's character on an insignificant city in a nowhere world. That was considered godmodding by other players, and their IC responses made that clear.

I'm more careful now: my stories are on a smaller scale. I'm sure I still get things wrong from time to time, but it's a learning process. I've found that the less you yourself do, the more room you leave for other players, and that's more fun for everyone.

[Ghost Hunter]

Well, the problem that Seri is facing here is pretty much frying pan and fire.

If he says "no, I'm not affiliated in any way with *insert x*, any attempts he makes to portray unsavory actions will be simply glossed over by die-hard proponents of the Fed-as-good-guys paradigm. In fact, it's likely that they'll claim that they are affiliated with some part of the Fed, and that the Fed officially condemns Seri. I've seen this happen before.

On the other hand, if Seri does claim even the most tenuous of connections, he is "god-moding" by some standards. But let's be honest - we all claim some connection to our faction of choice. Ghost Festival claimed to be a capsuleer experiment by the Dominations. Many Amarrian players - including many in PIE, claim to be Holders. Any time we try to create any connection between ourselves and the pre-written story, we engage in a bit of this by-fiat storytelling.

The difference between acceptable use of such and "god-moding" is one of degree. Ciarente created a planet and gave it its own culture and customs. Is it right to claim that since the Eve writers intended no such planet, Cia is "god-moding"? Hardly. Without some liberties being taken, there is no RP.

To say that Seriphyn couldn't find some agents somewhere willing to authorize his actions, in a Federation of trillions, seems odd. He's a capsuleer, insanely rich, and likely with some amount of influence. From an OOC perspective, it's a minor sin, certainly no more egregious than the claims Verone makes of actions taken against him by "lawful authorities", or Stitcher's claim that he was chased by the Provists, or the statements many of you pirates have in your bio's regarding CONCORDs files on you (after all, who are you to say what an NPC organization thinks of your characters, hmm?)

If Seri doesn't somehow tie his actions to a Federal NPC group, he will be quickly deprived of his "status" as a loyal Federation capsuleer by those unwilling to admit any faults in their own faction. So he, presumably without guile, came to reasonable conclusions as to what an NPC group might participate in, and made a story out of it. And it was interesting.

It's all very well and good to say that this isn't personal, but those statements ring rather hollow when you realize how often others do the same exact thing that Seri did, and are congratulated for their efforts. The reality is that somehow Seriphyn seems to get designated as an acceptable target because he irritates some people.

I'm not on a crusade for Seriphyn here. Frankly, my interest in this comes down to "well, that's not fair." And you who are criticizing Seriphyn, in the end, may be finding him at fault because he went two inches over your personal preference as to how one should use NPCs and background info.

Which, in the end, is "your RP is wrong".

And I understand, I really do, the desire to prevent someone from running over an NPC organization with fantastic changes to their nature - i.e., "the Theology Council has deposed Jamyl and crowned Vikarion Emperor!" or something similar. The difference is, again, one of degree. Seriphyn's storyline is not unreasonable, just as someone with a storyline of Provists beating up a Gallente tourist wouldn't be unreasonable.

Perhaps we could save our wrath for those who grossly offend?

EDIT: toned down some language and clarified some things.

Damnit I was all gearing up for a post like this and you beat me to the damn punch.

I have been wondering if most of the blown out of proportions issues surrounding Seriphyn have been because of the legitimacy of the issue, or people's ingrained distaste of Seriphyn in general.

Although I would like to see the debate between the viability of RPing with NPC entities continued on, I do not think this is the appropriate thread for it.

Toodles~

[Ashar Kor-Azor]

Well, this may not yet be a threadnaught, but it's definitely weighing in on the assault babblecruiser segment of the displacement chart.

I haven't read terribly much of this and I'm really not going to until much later, but I will underscore that the only things that should have really mattered to any of you are as follows:

-People went into this in part to show each other up, whether they knew they were doing so or not, and,

-People came out of it trying to score points rather than write collaboratively and have fun.

Any and all details are secondary, because details and perceptions of verisimilitude are merely about how comfortable you might be with a given scenario. Are you comfortable with a little bit of truthiness, or do you need to try to simulate things as accurately as possible? I don't know, but in the long run, it matters a whole shitload less than how everyone feels after the dust's settled.

People came out of this like it was a bad trip. Stop freaking out about that. It's not worth your page-long posts, it's just a good old-fashioned shitfest. You remember what those are like, right?

Those of you still wringing your hands over it - and there seem to be a few people - should do yourselves a favor, learn the cogent lesson here (roleplay to have fun, not go after someone with an attack womb or a projectile phallus or whatever else you think up), and sweep this under the fucking rug.

And try not to repeat the mistakes you've made for a while.

That's all you can do.

[Seriphyn]

I might like to build on Vikarion's post, and Ghost Hunter's concurring...back to how being a soloist brings issues. For example, Strix A&D did the exact same thing. They claimed to have shares purchased by Ishukone, then by Roden Shipyards, and claimed to have been investigated by the SDII. However, due to Strix being a larger group, and one not known for causing knee-jerk reactions by people, most just shrugged on by.

I am aware I cause certain negative reactions by folk, not exactly something I want or am happy with, but I think that is the core of the issue, on top of the fact that being the only one who is RPing such an angle, causes such reactions. PRETA, who claimed to be a Dominations experiment, did not receive such a chastising due to the fact their CEO and members, for example, are generally liked by the community.

Bit of a self-fulfilling thing. People are irritated by myself because they are offended how far I go because they are irritated by myself.

But yeah, what Vikarion said. Capsuleers work for NPCs, and sometimes I guess the NPCs will need to provide some resources to get the job done v0v.

[Julianus Soter]

There's no real solo play in eve online, particularly when public press releases are involved. That may be the problem.