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[Aria Jenneth]

The way I tend to interpret the Angel Cartel is as, functionally, a civilization that hasn't managed to put too many generations between itself and its origin as a pirate gang.

This.

Yeah pretty much.

But we shouldn't stop there when describing them, that's really not enough information to make them interesting to roleplay, not the way the Sansha's, the Bloods, or the Guristas are. So lets go outside of the box presented by the pure fiction and look at them socially, politically, economically, culturally. What does an Angel do for fun? What songs do they sing? What curses do they mutter? what hatreds do they hold? What defines them? What are their taboos? What are their virtues? What is their political power structure like? How does their economy function? what are they like as a culture? As an entity?

These are the questions that I'm attempting to answer. I mean, ask a Gallente roleplayer any of those questions and they can go on and on about them, we have ream upon ream of fiction and documentation, made up, and real, on the four nations, we a decent amount on Sansha's Nation, some on the Blood Raiders, some on the Guristas, a bit on the Serpentis, but what do we have on the Angels? What defines them?

That's something that we as players are going to need to decide.

It's about what we ever got for the Achura. So, hey, let's give it a whirl!

Alright. So, it strikes me that one of the most important traits of the Cartel is negative: in addition to what we have above, we also know that they are NOT.

-----

The Angels are not the Caldari.

If the Angels were a single, cohesive people struggling for thousands of years against the elements, they might have come out something like the ethnic Caldari-- very community-oriented, strong sense of honor. They're not; not only are they too diverse in origin for the insular Caldari approach to life, they also developed in a setting where treachery, collective or individual, is regularly rewarded, not punished. If you push your brother out into a storm, you lose your brother and usually gain nothing. If you push your brother out in front of a firing squad, you are apt to derive some concrete benefits.

The Angels have been more in the latter situation than the former, and will have learned this lesson. Organization demands duty. But honor? Ha!

The Angels are not the Gallente.

Individual empowerment (chaos)! Democracy (indecisiveness)! Human rights (lol)!

"Strike out for yourself, and only yourself, and you're just easy prey. Democracy just makes people decisive when they should be thinking carefully and indecisive when they should be acting. And the only 'rights' you have are the ones you can enforce."

This is how the Angel would seemingly tend to see it. "Anything else is just apt to get you shot."

The Angels are not the Amarr.

"God, if any such horrific bastard exists, is the one who made the rules of this world-- the ones the namby-pamby Federals just don't get, the ones the Caldari keep expecting to be all polite, the ones the Amarr think the world needs saving from. But there is no saving this world, and the only 'kingdom' you can ever build here is your own. So-- how're you going to do it?"

The Angels are not the Minmatar.

"Blood? What's that supposed to mean, exactly? Now, listen, mate, see this fucking tattoo on my arm? SEE IT? Yeah-- nice one, isn't it? Yeah, I got lucky. My cousin? He wasn't so damn lucky. I mean, look, I grew up with the guy; he was worth twice what I was, what I'm ever going to be, and when the elders got a good look at what he had on his arm? Pff-- exiled, just like that.

"That's what blood gets you: superstition, old bonds, some crazy mission to go save some poor religion-addled bastards you've never met in your life-- a million other things that have not a single thing to do with you and your life."

-----

The Angels are, of course, also "not" the Guristas, Serpentis, Sanshas, Blooders, EoM, Rogue Drones, etc., but a little less distinction might be necessary there.

So-- due to their recruitment base, the Angels' attitudes would be predominantly those of Empire outcasts, such as those noted above, but there also needs to be some unifying theme, some central pattern. The Angels are too strong, too unified in purpose, to be just a group of misfits.

So, what is left when you've thrown God, honor, the dignity of the individual, and the traditions of the ancestors all to the wind, along with conventional morality, but managed to hang on to duty, discipline, and, most of all, power as a means to an end? What do you get when you've thrown every external, philosophical source for a moral compass out the window?

Folks, there's a word for this, and the word is, "nihilists."

So-- what sort of culture does this create?

Superficial similarities to the Caldari State probably abound, at least in public life. The Cartel is very militaristic, with a lot of ranks, uniforms, "all marching in step," as I think CCP Abraxas put it. The core difference is that, in the Cartel's ideal, all things, all things, are means to greater ends, the ultimate "greater end" being the power to survive essentially anything. Family ties-- both your own and others'-- are to be exploited. So are friendships, faith, and so on. Ergo, if you can disobey orders in a way that actually, truly outweighs all the negative consequences (including the dangerous example being set), this is behavior to be rewarded.

"But isn't that kinda what the Blood Raiders are about?" I hear you ask.

Well, sorta, but not really. The Sani Sabik seem to be about power for power's sake-- they essentially worship it. Whether it's CCP Abraxas' "blood god" or Kai Zion's quiet, personal (as in, one person) cult of self-improvement, the Sani see power of one sort or another as a thing to be desired for its own sake. These guys are following Friedrich Nietzsche's approach, life as the "will to power."  

The Angels are more practical: power is ever and always a means to an end. Exactly which end is likely to vary, Angel by Angel, but if there's one thing the Angels are good at as a group, it's using their power to shore up and maintain their own position.

Now-- an important couple of notes.

1) Nihilism is a hell of a difficult principle (lack of principle?) on which to build a stable, lasting civilization. Good freaking luck. A governing power that cannot gain long-term legitimacy (which seems to boil down to moral weight, at least in the eyes of the citizens) will not be able to govern for long, and nihilism allows little basis for doing so. Consequently, while it seems near-certain that the Angel leadership (possibly most of the Dominations) actually approaches things in this manner philosophically, it is entirely probable that they don't encourage underlings to see things this way with too much zeal and that they make some use of "soft power" to build loyalty, preferring a secure a position as protectors to an insecure position as targets. This likely even functions outside of the Cartel: at the time of the Sharkon incident, most of the citizens of that system preferred the security offered by the Angels to that offered by the Republic military.

2) The Angels are, by the terms of New Eden, an almost ridiculously diverse lot, and there's relatively little sign that the Angels do anything to stifle it aside from imposing order and discipline-- and aside from the sort of pervasive cynicism you'd inevitably encounter from a whole faction of outcasts. Ergo, you can probably find communities within the Cartel with virtually any belief set or cultural background you care to name.

Not sure how much that helps, but I'm too tired to write further. Others are welcome to continue, or I can keep going when I get the chance.

[Saede Riordan]

1) Nihilism is a hell of a difficult principle (lack of principle?) on which to build a stable, lasting civilization. Good freaking luck. A governing power that cannot gain long-term legitimacy (which seems to boil down to moral weight, at least in the eyes of the citizens) will not be able to govern for long, and nihilism allows little basis for doing so. Consequently, while it seems near-certain that the Angel leadership (possibly most of the Dominations) actually approaches things in this manner philosophically, it is entirely probable that they don't encourage underlings to see things this way with too much zeal and that they make some use of "soft power" to build loyalty, preferring a secure a position as protectors to an insecure position as targets. This likely even functions outside of the Cartel: at the time of the Sharkon incident, most of the citizens of that system preferred the security offered by the Angels to that offered by the Republic military.

While Nihilism would be a definite principle among the higher ups, I think existentialism, and  cynicism are more likely within the main body of the population, sort of "I make my own way, I make my own worth" sort of thing. Similar to the state where your worth is determined by what you do, but even more so, where it doesn't just determine your worth to others, it determines how you see yourself. This combined with the cynicism leads to a group that is really, really, aggressive with their goals. No one better get in their way.

2) The Angels are, by the terms of New Eden, an almost ridiculously diverse lot, and there's relatively little sign that the Angels do anything to stifle it aside from imposing order and discipline-- and aside from the sort of pervasive cynicism you'd inevitably encounter from a whole faction of outcasts. Ergo, you can probably find communities within the Cartel with virtually any belief set or cultural background you care to name.

Not sure how much that helps, but I'm too tired to write further. Others are welcome to continue, or I can keep going when I get the chance.

I sort of see the Angel cartel stations as a cross between a public bazaar, a tent city, a military base, and an industrial park. a massive crush of unwanted peoples from all corners of the cluster, just a really diverse climate where anything can happen, almost a world unto itself. And yes, you'd find almost every sort of belief, moral code, and person, from all the corners of the cluster, all the outcasts, all the unwanteds.

I do again really like the idea of the Cartel having its own language, and a belief system shared by the third and fourth generation angels, not sure what form it would take, but almost something that encourages the cynical, ruthless behavior among their members, stuff that makes it permissible. The language, which I've called Teanga, just seems like a good idea to have on their part, and if enough people speak it, it will proliferate quickly, since learning one shared language would be much cheaper then buying an expensive translator, and leads to a less secure information exchange.

and yeah, this really helps, and I'd love to hear more from you when you get a chance Aria.

also, listen to song, watch video. When I think of angels, that's what I think:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylslcF-fUeE&feature=related

[Aria Jenneth]

Thinking about this a little further, it occurs to me that people who don't adhere to any particular "greater" philosophy often don't talk about it very much, even if they think about it.

The Cartel seems to be necessarily morally nihilistic. This is sort of necessary to the work (the classic alternative is "objectification of the other," allowing all sorts of nastiness to be inflicted on outsiders, but the Cartel is full of people from every possible empire, so that may be more difficult for them than most). For the rest?

Hm. I'll have to think about this a bit further.

[Saede Riordan]

The Cartel seems to be necessarily morally nihilistic. This is sort of necessary to the work (the classic alternative is "objectification of the other," allowing all sorts of nastiness to be inflicted on outsiders, but the Cartel is full of people from every possible empire, so that may be more difficult for them than most). For the rest?

Hm. I'll have to think about this a bit further.

That is actually a really good point. So the question becomes, how do you dehumanize people, when everyone around you, is from one of those walks of life, how do you separate yourself from them?

I think part of it can be explained away fairly easily, the people of the cartel are the outcasts and their offspring, the unloved, the unwanted. They likely hold little to know love for the rest of their former culture, who many of them probably see as having abandoned them. I know when I made Illuria, a first generation Angel, I made her have a deep seated resentment of the State for kicking her out and branding her as dishonorable for being a lesbian. Would that be enough to do horrible things to people from the state that she's never met?
Well, not on its own, but it definitely contributes.

But there needs to be some other factor. What that other factor is, I'm not sure, I'll have to think on it further.

This give you any new insights Aria?

[Aria Jenneth]

I think part of it can be explained away fairly easily, the people of the cartel are the outcasts and their offspring, the unloved, the unwanted.

Hm. Excellent point. If you think about it, it's not difficult for the disenfranchised of any given civilization to lose their ties of loyalty to their parent society. Sometimes they seem to hold that they are the "real" patriots of whatever nation (at its most pronounced, this turns into a French Revolution situation, with much lopping of heads). At other times, they basically say to hell with the whole thing and find an alternative "society" to belong to.

That, itself, could very well describe the Cartel's core to perfection.

The Cartel was, at its origins, a gang. Gangs don't develop through shared ideology or philosophy. They form and grow by providing a sense of "belonging" and identity to those who are otherwise without it-- an identity with concrete advantages, since a gang offers protection.

It's not about greed so much as status-- protection, identity, respect, and the power to protect what you have. It's "being someone."

It probably gets more Machiavellian as you go higher up the power chain, mind you, but as a warlord it would be precisely this kind of legitimacy that you might want in order to establish the sort of nation that survives the death of its first king.

It's also the kind of (relatively primitive) "nation" that establishes the emotive bonds of community most closely, professing no particular regard for humanity as a whole and treating those outside of it as entirely and intensely "other"-- enemies, or prey.

It's not so much "nationalism" as we usually think of it, if only because that normally carries ethnic overtones. It's more like what you'd get if every gang in the entire United States were united under one leader, declared Detroit their headquarters (with enough firepower to pose a credible threat to US armed forces), and proceeded to start happily spreading their tendrils through the rest of the country (and world) through ever-more-sophisticated forms of underground control.

It's less "organized crime" than a shadow-nation, one that exists openly and above-ground as the reigning power of Curse, but which simultaneously maintains the loyalty of large segments of population in many other nations, and particularly the Minmatar Republic.

It doesn't require a single unifying cause: its existence as a true alternative to the other imperial powers, one vastly more attuned to the needs and desires of the empire underclasses, is itself its unifying cause. To its leaders, it is, no doubt, a tool of power and control-- conquest, even. To its members, especially among the empire refugee camps and slums, it represents an alternative to being knocked down, stepped over, and disregarded, day in, day out.

Thoughts?

[Saede Riordan]

I think part of it can be explained away fairly easily, the people of the cartel are the outcasts and their offspring, the unloved, the unwanted.

Hm. Excellent point. If you think about it, it's not difficult for the disenfranchised of any given civilization to lose their ties of loyalty to their parent society. Sometimes they seem to hold that they are the "real" patriots of whatever nation (at its most pronounced, this turns into a French Revolution situation, with much lopping of heads). At other times, they basically say to hell with the whole thing and find an alternative "society" to belong to.

That, itself, could very well describe the Cartel's core to perfection.

The Cartel was, at its origins, a gang. Gangs don't develop through shared ideology or philosophy. They form and grow by providing a sense of "belonging" and identity to those who are otherwise without it-- an identity with concrete advantages, since a gang offers protection.

It's not about greed so much as status-- protection, identity, respect, and the power to protect what you have. It's "being someone."

That makes sense, so the reason people join the cartel, the thing that defines the cartel at its core, isn't for any other reason other then that it makes you somebody. I doesn't pull them out of the underworld of their parent civilization, but it definitely establishes that there is a better alternative.

So honestly, the reason to maintain loyalty to the angels, the reason to maintain some level of trust in them, is that without them, you are utterly on your own. Just one more piece of trash chewed up and spit out by the machine of culture. So the thing that being an angel gives, that defines it almost, is a sort of newfound, yet cynical sense of belonging. The angels are you friends, the angels are your allies, the angels like you. They took you in when no one else would. That would definitely, definitely instill a strong sense of loyalty.

It's also the kind of (relatively primitive) "nation" that establishes the emotive bonds of community most closely, professing no particular regard for humanity as a whole and treating those outside of it as entirely and intensely "other"-- enemies, or prey.

Well yeah, definitely. The people the Cartel recruits are likely the very bottom of the social ladder, the people that absolutely everyone above them steps on. So if you find people that support you, people that take you in, and give you an identity, you'll jump through flaming hoops to please them. Combine this with the fact that they were stepped on by everyone above them on the social ladder, and have probably been in that situation for more then one generation, they would hate the rest of humanity. The rest of humanity chewed them up, spit them out, and left them to die. They'd have no qualms about returning the favor.

It's not so much "nationalism" as we usually think of it, if only because that normally carries ethnic overtones. It's more like what you'd get if every gang in the entire United States were united under one leader, declared Detroit their headquarters (with enough firepower to pose a credible threat to US armed forces), and proceeded to start happily spreading their tendrils through the rest of the country (and world) through ever-more-sophisticated forms of underground control.

It's less "organized crime" than a shadow-nation, one that exists openly and above-ground as the reigning power of Curse, but which simultaneously maintains the loyalty of large segments of population in many other nations, and particularly the Minmatar Republic.

It doesn't require a single unifying cause: its existence as a true alternative to the other imperial powers, one vastly more attuned to the needs and desires of the empire underclasses, is itself its unifying cause. To its leaders, it is, no doubt, a tool of power and control-- conquest, even. To its members, especially among the empire refugee camps and slums, it represents an alternative to being knocked down, stepped over, and disregarded, day in, day out.

Thoughts?

Shadow Nation is indeed a very good way to describe it. When you think about it, its not that different then the way most insurgency groups recruit. They go to the disenfranchised, marginalized, and illegitimized. The people taught by everyone around them that they are nothing, that they are the scum of the earth. Even if the insurgency in the end makes everything worse, its not something the members care about. They are just happy with a place to belong, happy with people who don't see them as garbage, and they'll do whatever those people want to stop from being seen as garbage by them too.

Its interesting to think about, its a society built on the distilled hatred of all other societies. I have to wonder, what would happen to such a society over the next century or two. What will they evolve into? What will they become?
What about after just a generation or two?

[Nakatre Read]

Dear god.



And I obviously need to visit this forum more often, stuff gets posted too fast.

[Aria Jenneth]

Nakatre:

Was that a criticism? If so, of which part, exactly? The conversation's shifted directions a couple times.

In any event, if you've got ideas to present either supported by or inferred from canon, please do join in!


Nikita:

Shadow Nation is indeed a very good way to describe it. When you think about it, its not that different then the way most insurgency groups recruit. They go to the disenfranchised, marginalized, and illegitimized. The people taught by everyone around them that they are nothing, that they are the scum of the earth.

Or, alternatively, those who stand to lose everything. See, e.g., the Iraqi Sunnis: a privileged minority on resource-poor land that finds its political control slipping through its fingers. Compare to a Caldari mid-level corporate manager who's gotten over his head in gambling debts and stands to lose everything his family owns.

And then someone offers to just make all the trouble go away....

Another method of recruitment-- and a way to get hooks into other entities (one of the "ever more sophisticated" methods of expanding control).

I think Nakatre's been working this "classic mobster" angle a bit more, but really it's just an extension and expansion of the basic "gang" model. The two are far from incompatible.

One question, of course, is whether you ever allow a "business partner," someone brought in late and with original loyalties to another group/society, to gain any very strong influence in the organization. I'm thinking not; the risk of your average Caldari manager, for instance, suffering a fit of conscience and turning a bunch of your people (and themselves) in to corporate security forces is too damned high.

Higher-ups should really have undivided loyalties.

Even if the insurgency in the end makes everything worse, its not something the members care about. They are just happy with a place to belong, happy with people who don't see them as garbage, and they'll do whatever those people want to stop from being seen as garbage by them too.

Also, they get the pleasure of watching the "elites" of society on bended knee before its "dregs." That's gotta be pleasant if the dominant society's been treating you like dirt all your life.

Its interesting to think about, its a society built on the distilled hatred of all other societies. I have to wonder, what would happen to such a society over the next century or two. What will they evolve into? What will they become?
What about after just a generation or two?

Hm. "Hatred" might be putting it too strongly. "Scorn," "disdain," "contempt"-- that might come closer.

The real trick with such a society is keeping it together and stable. With a shortage of higher principles, it's subject to all sorts of political games, and any situation where a unit of soldiers is more loyal to their commander than to Curse is potential trouble.

In Empire space, I imagine the Angels would get better over time at being quieter. A lot of local gangs probably serve under their own names as proxies for the Cartel. Proxies of proxies, even. That, again, I recall is Nakatre's angle (and she's welcome to fill in any blanks I'm missing), the "quiet influence" side of things.

Would that be what the Dark Angels do? My instincts tell me that they're more about the espionage, internal security, and general secret police-ness than putting the "cartel" in "The Angel Cartel," but there's no other particular group that this seems to fit. It would be very weird to have the exact same people doing both the interstellar espionage and the planetside drug dealing and influence peddling. The Salvation Angels, maybe?

... that could work. Or just another group, as yet unnamed.

On their own turf, or in space, however, the Cartel is open and direct. Archangels ain't all that subtle, just deft, and that's where the Cartel faction ships come into play.

Anyhow. What I'm getting at, culturally, is that the Cartel of Curse and the Cartel of the street are probably two different creatures. The Cartel of the street would have to be a relatively quiet periphery, a source of profits and recruits but one where Cartel insignias disappear into gang signs and serial numbers. One does not ease the rolling up of a group of conspirators by making them easy to spot. In other words, you'd need core precepts: loyalty, obedience, care (don't betray us, do what you're told, don't fuck up). You probably wouldn't need much more, and that's probably about as far as Cartel culture "marches in step" in the Empires. The Empires have the power, so the Angels lie low.

In Curse (or other Angel-controlled space), the pattern is reversed, less "gangland" and more "military dictatorship." The two major groups there are the (large) elite, the Angels, and the underclass, their victims. The Angels are slavers; this is a known fact. How many slaves are sold as opposed to being kept around for this or that reason isn't entirely clear, but it's likely quite a few.

There's probably some way to end up not being a slave anymore; the most obvious (and likely) would just be being freed by whoever owned you. Given the Angels' martial bent, I might add an equivalent of being "knighted for bravery." In any case, it's entirely likely that a fair few modern-day Angels are descended from slave stock. If there are any lingering Angel-specific languages or traditions, this is probably where they came from.

I actually kinda doubt very many of those born in Curse get deeply involved in Cartel doings in the Empires, unless it's as part of a fleet action. The differences in mannerism, accent, and custom would be too easy to detect, so I'd guess that most planetside Empire stuff is handled by "local" Angels. The Dark Angels might well be an exception: espionage games tend to demand (at least in places) some serious, confirmed loyalty.

Specifics? We'd have to make those up as we go along.

One important note on slavery: the idea that it's a bad thing is kind of new. As far as I'm aware, in ancient Rome the "rightness" of it wasn't even in question, and the Romans didn't use the later European excuse, "But it's for their own good!" that we hear from the Amarr.

Slaves were spoils of war, among other endeavors-- luckless souls, but rightful property, simple as that. You can own a couch, a horse, a man. Narry a difference (just the man produces better poetry). Why bother to rationalize?

That, I imagine, is the Angel approach to the issue.

Mind you, I suspect that little cultural nicety is much stronger in Curse than it is in, say, the Republic. But it's still gotta be hugely satisfying to snap an explosive collar around the neck of the guy who beat you bloody for trying to steal from his shop last year.

[Silver Night]

On Language:

I always felt like the Cartel probably didn't have it's own language, but that there were very likely one or more patois or pidgin type languages. Probably a whole mess of them. I would tend to think that some specific phrases or slang terms might creep into most Cartel members' normal usage too.

On Organization:

I wonder if rather than military dictatorship, warlords might not be closer to the 'middle level' structure of the Cartel. I would think that at the top, there is probably a lot of vicious, likely often bloody political maneuvering, but I'm not sure to what degree the Dominations would feel the need to show a united front to the rest of the organization outside that.

In the lower echelons, I do really like the idea that the Cartel works through proxies and associates at the ground level. I think, though, that given how widely the Cartel recruits, they probably could find people to stick in place pretty much anywhere in the cluster without being recognized. Even more-so in the very busy places where they might want a more direct presence - trade hubs and the like.

I mean, it is a vast organization that recruits all over the cluster for roles directly with the Cartel. Locals are probably fine when you want to shift risk for selling drugs or running illegal gambling or whatever, but  it is likely to be situational. Big cluster, etc. There are places where you would want your own people, and there would also likely be Cartel people eager to try and run things themselves to prove themselves, and get their starts up the ladder.

On Beliefs:

I touched on the made up religion I came up with earlier, but I suspect that religiously the Cartel has a wild spectrum of stuff going on. It's a big organization, people from all over, basically the points from earlier.

As far as philosophy, a couple of thoughts:

As far as morals etc: I think it depends on who you are talking about. The person born in Curse, for whom there was never anything wrong with any of what they do? The person recruited or captured when they were still a teenager or younger, whose ideas were still in the midst of being formed, and there easily molded to the Cartel's culture? Or the person who is an adult, probably already with some degree of power, who decided to join or work with the cartel, and whose framework for right and wrong might have fit the Cartel's all along, and now they have happily found eachother?

Of course, all of those are subject to a 'to one degree or another'. People can have doubts, or conversely, take it too far. Backstabbing of a kind might be rewarded, but I think even for the Cartel there might be (various) culturally acceptable ways of doing it.

In fact, I think for the Cartel, there might be a sort of enforced 'cult of loyalty', like you see in a lot of organized crime now and in the recent past. Not like they are so virtuous that they wouldn't think about betrayal, ofc. But for instance if you are going to throw your superior to CONCORD in order to advance, you best make sure noone finds out you're a rat. If you have someone killed, make sure that you have a good pretext, or that it can't be traced. That kind of thing.

Retribution wouldn't be so much about outrage, or based in love for the injured party, but it would be based around the fact you were incompetent enough to get caught, not to mention the threat you pose if you are known to use those tactics.

[Nakatre Read]

Was that a criticism?

No, not at all. It was my surprised reaction at how large and long the posts are I agree with pretty much everything you have said, and you even know what I'm doing! I'd love to join in but some people are just better at discussions and I'm not one of them I prefer to linger under the surface now and then and get my point across through other means.

Though I'm glad to see that what I stand for hasn't gone unnoticed. The difference between Angels in Empire and Angels in Curse is quite large and shouldn't be overlooked, so I'm glad you pointed that out.

Carry on <.< *gives waffles*

[Nakatre Read]

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Roleplay

Let CCP Play the NPCs - CCP and CCP alone have control of the NPC organizations. You are So-and-so, Important Poobah of the Ministry of War? No, you aren't. CCP could come out with a new piece of PF at any time that completely contradicts you. You can always claim to be anything, either from insanity, trickery or pretence, but always know that it's not true.

It seems there has been some misunderstanding regarding this particular thing.

[Aria Jenneth]

Don't think so, really, Nakatre.

How bad is it, actually, to claim to have the backing of the Dominations for an undertaking (attacking Sansha's Nation) that they would most likely give at least the "Sure, knock yourselves out," level of blessing to?

Sure, it's a little much, and probably a bad habit to get into, but relatively safe ground: the Cartel and Nation are at war, so claiming approval of an operation to hurt the Nation seems pretty minimally presumptuous. Sort of like saying, "The Pope has declared himself in favor of Catholicism."

As for "Angel Representative Illuria Malprosit," the way I read it is that she's the Angel representative to Risen Angels-- a liaison officer, if I've got my terminology straight. That's nothing very grandiose.

In any case, thank you for your earlier good wishes, and I'm exceedingly pleased you feel I've done your perspective justice. I'll have to deal with Silver's post a bit later on....

[Aria Jenneth]

All right. I've got a few minutes before bed.

On Language:

I always felt like the Cartel probably didn't have it's own language, but that there were very likely one or more patois or pidgin type languages. Probably a whole mess of them. I would tend to think that some specific phrases or slang terms might creep into most Cartel members' normal usage too.

Entirely possible. Then again, the Cartel is an interstellar quasi-civilization spanning a good many systems. I agree with your analysis overall, but there's always the possibility of surviving islands of old culture that haven't been quashed-- and with some old languages surviving with them.

On Organization:

I wonder if rather than military dictatorship, warlords might not be closer to the 'middle level' structure of the Cartel. I would think that at the top, there is probably a lot of vicious, likely often bloody political maneuvering, but I'm not sure to what degree the Dominations would feel the need to show a united front to the rest of the organization outside that.

This one, I'd have to differ with: without a strong central leadership, the Cartel would be even more apt to fracture than it already is. You wouldn't have "The Cartel," but a lot of little warring cartels-- the last snake in the barrel birthing, or even just collapsing into, a writhing pile of baby snakes.

In the lower echelons, I do really like the idea that the Cartel works through proxies and associates at the ground level. I think, though, that given how widely the Cartel recruits, they probably could find people to stick in place pretty much anywhere in the cluster without being recognized. Even more-so in the very busy places where they might want a more direct presence - trade hubs and the like.

I was thinking mostly of the risks inherent in putting a Curse native into someplace like the Empire, or, worse, the State (but also, to a lesser degree, the more "open" empires). Without some pretty extensive training, you'd run the risk of inadvertently reenacting that scene from Star Trek IV where Chekhov is asking "where the nuclear wessels are kept."

Using empire natives as lower-level agents would probably be the simplest, easiest course, even if you end up shuffling them from one empire to another: at worst, a Caldari expatriate in Matari space looks like a Caldari, not an Angel.

I mean, it is a vast organization that recruits all over the cluster for roles directly with the Cartel. Locals are probably fine when you want to shift risk for selling drugs or running illegal gambling or whatever, but  it is likely to be situational. Big cluster, etc. There are places where you would want your own people, and there would also likely be Cartel people eager to try and run things themselves to prove themselves, and get their starts up the ladder.

Well, naturally. I suspect the ones eager to prove themselves get shuffled towards the Archangels or low-level administrative work, though; when it comes to espionage or drug shipment, over-eager hot shots would be a bad element to add to the mix.

On Beliefs:

I touched on the made up religion I came up with earlier, but I suspect that religiously the Cartel has a wild spectrum of stuff going on. It's a big organization, people from all over, basically the points from earlier.

*nodnod*

As far as philosophy, a couple of thoughts:

As far as morals etc: I think it depends on who you are talking about. The person born in Curse, for whom there was never anything wrong with any of what they do? The person recruited or captured when they were still a teenager or younger, whose ideas were still in the midst of being formed, and there easily molded to the Cartel's culture? Or the person who is an adult, probably already with some degree of power, who decided to join or work with the cartel, and whose framework for right and wrong might have fit the Cartel's all along, and now they have happily found eachother?

Well, naturally. If everybody's the same to begin with, what's the point of enforcing tight discipline?

Of course, all of those are subject to a 'to one degree or another'. People can have doubts, or conversely, take it too far. Backstabbing of a kind might be rewarded, but I think even for the Cartel there might be (various) culturally acceptable ways of doing it.

My guess would be that there are two. Either:

1. Don't get caught

or

2. Pull it off in such a spectacular manner that you instantly establish your credentials as a brilliant, ruthless son of a bitch who can walk into the harsh light of scrutiny and likely discipline with a wicked grin.

The first is less demanding. The latter is a quick way to either leap up the ladder or face merciless retribution, depending on your performance.

In fact, I think for the Cartel, there might be a sort of enforced 'cult of loyalty', like you see in a lot of organized crime now and in the recent past. Not like they are so virtuous that they wouldn't think about betrayal, ofc. But for instance if you are going to throw your superior to CONCORD in order to advance, you best make sure noone finds out you're a rat. If you have someone killed, make sure that you have a good pretext, or that it can't be traced. That kind of thing.

Retribution wouldn't be so much about outrage, or based in love for the injured party, but it would be based around the fact you were incompetent enough to get caught, not to mention the threat you pose if you are known to use those tactics.

I'd agree-- that's sort of what I was getting at with my "basic precepts you teach to any street punk you want to use."

One thing, though: retribution for a breach of a loyalty cult is absolutely about outrage, at least in the lower echelons. If you broke faith, if you ratted on your friends, you broke the rules, you broke your word, you broke trust. You did all of that in a context where trust in one's compatriots is about the only thing that allows such criminals to work together, thus rendering you not only utterly unreliable but also a treacherous snake.

The bullet you'd get in your head (possibly after several long, unpleasant hours) would be both a practical and a moral judgment.

[Nakatre Read]

As for "Angel Representative Illuria Malprosit," the way I read it is that she's the Angel representative to Risen Angels-- a liaison officer, if I've got my terminology straight. That's nothing very grandiose

You can spin it any way you want but I know what it says, Aria. I didn't have any problems with her RP whatsoever, except for those lines in her IGS post that I personally, as long-time RP'er, think is pretty darn wrong. I'm actually quite disappointed to see you're trying to defend the fact that it's perfectly fine for her to claim whatever she wants.

The Angel Cartel community is incredibly small, and I've been a part of it for a very, very long time. I take whatever is being slinged towards it, very serious. To have someone suddenly walk up towards that community and go "Hey, here are my ideas, and I think they're awesome" without ANY regard for other people's visions or even RP etiquette, is quite frankly annoying me.

But you know what, I've been talking with Nikita. Apparently you're now the Oracle when it comes to Angel Cartel RP. While I already agreed that you have said some very true things, I cannot fathom the fact you're actually trying to defend the wrong ideas instead of pointing them out. Sure, prime fiction is scarce and left open to imagination. You and I both know however that NPC's should be NPC's and that it is, and always has been, impossible to claim as a capsuleer pilot to have special connections to them.

In any case, this is the last you'll see of me in this thread. I'm gonna ask Mizuro Cybon if she wants to go on a date with me.

[Aria Jenneth]

Nakatre, the quote was:

If you have forces already present in the area and you would like to liaison with us, or the Angels in general, contact myself, or Angel Representative, Illuria Malprosit.

This may be taken to indicate that Illuria Malprosit is some sort of spokesperson for "the Angels in general," but the statement is not without ambiguity. Considering Illuria's subsequent RP, I'm pretty sure I'm correct about the intended meaning.

Make of this what you like. Your approach to play is not my business.