Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Ché Biko on 09 Apr 2013, 17:06
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This conversation started in another thread, but I dislike making off-topic posts, and I thought this topic was worth it's own thread, so I made it. :)
Side note: I consider most tranfers of pod and cargo and the like to be done with more advanced versions of Star Trek transporters. I think it's makes the most sense, immersion wise, for near instantanious transfer of goods across hundreds of meters.
Transporters do not work in the world of New Eden.
The Jovian body part event was about a prototype that clearly did not function.
Hmm, I was not aware of that event, but that particular device works on a much bigger scale then what I'm talking about. While I'm not totally conviced that that event indicates that transporters don't work in New Eden (news articles I've read now indicate that it was sabotage, not technical failure), it could indicate that they only work for distances no longer than a few kilometers.
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Early EvE lore was rather specific about this tech not existing.
Much like alien races, it was meant to distinguish the universe from other pop-scifi.
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While I think it would be cool...I also am glad we don't have them. I like imagining the dock workers and ships crews moving the stuff with MTACs and loaders.
I've never actually thought about it before, but given EVEs technology it's a surprise that we don't have something similar or that it's not being worked on by some group of scientists out there. Never heard of the event Lallara mention, but I'm guessing that was WAY before my time.
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Even more significant than the failure of the initial device is the fanfare with which it was rolled out, and the utter lack of any mention of similar technology since then. If they'd gone on to develop a successful Mark II version, I think it'd have been highlighted as well.
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Don't suppose there's any linkage to be found for the failed attempt? I'm suddenly curious.
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Well, EVE's technology is advanced, but not 'that' advanced, especially given the 30,000+ years weve had to develop it. In fact, as sci-fi universes go, given that much time, I'd say technology has developed in EVE at an extremely limited rate. Even the most backward universe will develop laser guns given enough centuries, and EVE is really only a step up from WH4k in that regard.
EVE is no gleaming future world, it's a grimy shithole where almost any advancement in tech came specifically from military application.
The largest Empire in existence still relies on subjugated manual labor.
AI development (and super-high-end computing) is abhorred and illegal.
The first truly transhuman race (sleepers) met with a grisly fate.
The second transhuman species (Unbound eggers) are barely tolerated in 'proper' society.
Matter replication and energy/mass manipulation are a long way off.
Post-scarcity in resources is not achieved anywhere except the Alpha-cities/worlds where the Fed concentrates it's wealth.
Along with this is the thematic aspect of EVE in which the most powerful and threatening forces and technologies in the world come not from an uncertain future (as in most Sci-fi), but rather from a dark and brutal past (as in most fantasy). This world, despite all it's shields and cynos, looks to relics and ancient lore as it's frontiers.
It's an aspect of the universe I think is absolutely vital to what EVE is, and why I enjoy letting my brain live there from time to time.
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The 'splodey Jovian: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Year_YC106
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Well, EVE's technology is advanced, but not 'that' advanced, especially given the 30,000+ years weve had to develop it. In fact, as sci-fi universes go, given that much time, I'd say technology has developed in EVE at an extremely limited rate. Even the most backward universe will develop laser guns given enough centuries, and EVE is really only a step up from WH4k in that regard.
EVE is no gleaming future world, it's a grimy shithole where almost any advancement in tech came specifically from military application.
The largest Empire in existence still relies on subjugated manual labor.
AI development (and super-high-end computing) is abhorred and illegal.
The first truly transhuman race (sleepers) met with a grisly fate.
The second transhuman species (Unbound eggers) are barely tolerated in 'proper' society.
Matter replication and energy/mass manipulation are a long way off.
Post-scarcity in resources is not achieved anywhere except the Alpha-cities/worlds where the Fed concentrates it's wealth.
Along with this is the thematic aspect of EVE in which the most powerful and threatening forces and technologies in the world come not from an uncertain future (as in most Sci-fi), but rather from a dark and brutal past (as in most fantasy). This world, despite all it's shields and cynos, looks to relics and ancient lore as it's frontiers.
It's an aspect of the universe I think is absolutely vital to what EVE is, and why I enjoy letting my brain live there from time to time.
+1
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Mining lasers, on the other hand, do use something vaguely teleporter-esque. I think it is only good for raw materials, though. If I remember right, it basically vaporizes material, and then draws it in along the beam.
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Mining lasers, on the other hand, do use something vaguely teleporter-esque. I think it is only good for raw materials, though. If I remember right, it basically vaporizes material, and then draws it in along the beam.
Mining lasers are lasers + tractor beams. This is especially evident with the new mining graphics - you see the rotating cutting lasers and the tractor beam in the middle pulling in the ore.
As for teleportation... No, not in the Star Trek transporter sense of the technology. Jump drives, bridges, stargates and other wormhole transit methods are technically forms of teleportation, as they instantaneously transport matter across space. They are all wormholes though, so there's no matter-to-energy transfer going on.
Loot extraction is a gameplay > lore situation, but I believe the handwavium for it is "cargo drones."
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The 'splodey Jovian: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Year_YC106
Thankies!!
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Yep, transporting/loading goods in EVE is drones and workers doing the lifting. Any teleportation is via wormholes. I guess technically some kind of a "hyperspace jump" might be on the very edge of what is possible, but would be very risky (as in, sending matter to the wormhole before it has stabilized and starting to close the wormhole from the origin before the matter has got thru, skipping the stable wormhole phase).
Even the Sansha, who are pretty much the most advanced wormhole-using race in the universe (perhaps save the Jove, who still were unable to prevent the Sansha from entering their systems) are unable to use transporters, and "uplifted" people with tractor beams.
There is one way, however, to "transport" a living being: Namely, doing a mind scan, killing the origin body (in case of slower scans, mainly for legal reasons), and then uploading the mind state to the target host body. Naturally, this approach does not work for goods. However, assuming enough raw materials are available or possible to generate using reactors, you could probably use nanites to construct relatively complex mechanisms. (Not sure if constructing a body or at least a sufficiently advanced brain in a jar would be possible with nanites.)
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Doesn't the current (IRL) theories about wormholes suggest that they can also work through time as well as space?
Meaning that Sleepers could be from the future of the cluster?
This world, despite all it's shields and cynos, looks to relics and ancient lore as it's frontiers.
Also this, very much this.
All invention is done from decrypting ancient tech.
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Wormhole temporal dislocation is, (theoretically according to Schwarzchild et al.) the result of a persistent two-end connection experiencing relative difference in acceleration. The two ends are subject to special relativity as are all bodies in motion throughout space time, with a 0.60C relative velocity (taking one end as 'at rest') a noticeable deviation in the rate of time experienced at both ends may be seen over time (Thorne, Kip 1994).
This means that at high enough relative velocities, a 'present' (anchored) point would lead to a past (relativistic speed 'slowing' time) point. There are conditions to this:
- The distance you can travel back/forth through time is bound by the lifespan of the wormhole. The 'shared point of origin' is the backwards limit, I am unsure (due to this not being my field) if forwards travel is possible, as thinking on it, both ends would be in 'relative motion' from the perspective of one another. Vaun (Kyber) would possibly have bigger academic stones to throw into that pond.
- We're employing eve-online handwavium to overcome the current 'Schwarzchild observation problem' (light cannot get over the event horizon before the wormhole collapses). Mass-boson is an example of such handwavium.
IMO this means that the EVE gate, as a long lived wormhole MAY have had temporal dislocation properties, but the current naturally forming wormholes, with only 24 hrs lifespan, would not have sufficient time to form the relativistic properties required for this theoretical model to apply. Of course we have other models and 'space magic' all of which are valid arguments in a fictional setting, but this is the general theory I apply (under several racial pseudonyms for the pre-warp scientists involved in theories when really pressed).
Linkage for great justice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wormhole (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wormhole)) - citations available on demand (not many open journals and a lot of pseudoscience to trawl through for the very interested).
Disclaimer: Yes, wikipedia, I know. But it presents the nitty gritty in a pretty well edited way.
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I think this article (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1875389211005724#) is public. Or then my university just has the license to an odd journal, since we don't do space things here (might well be the case, if we share the license with other technical universities in Finland).
Also there is this: http://michaelakruis.blogspot.fi/2012/01/rja-2b.html (http://michaelakruis.blogspot.fi/2012/01/rja-2b.html) (has very bad reference critics, though, linking to an astral mumbo-jumbo article - no offense if someone believes those things, but this far I don't think we can measure angels & spirits, therefore it is not science)
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Doesn't the current (IRL) theories about wormholes suggest that they can also work through time as well as space?
Meaning that Sleepers could be from the future of the cluster?
Tony G suggests otherwise, what with Templar One's 'reveal' of who/what the Sleepers are (not that any of US care, but CCP does, and it was likely intended from the beginning, because there are more than enough hints in w-space to that end.)
This world, despite all it's shields and cynos, looks to relics and ancient lore as it's frontiers.
Also this, very much this.
All invention is done from decrypting ancient tech.
There's a really good reason for that.
Societies in EVE, the Jove aside, are at a lower technological level than the apex of the societies that preceeded them, due to collapses from one cause or another (EVE Gate included). Our current position is nowhere near the apex of those societies, so, yeah, of course we're going to look to them for direction and improvement.
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Early EvE lore was rather specific about this tech not existing.
Much like alien races, it was meant to distinguish the universe from other pop-scifi.
I will asume you are correct.
But I think immersion aspects in this instance are more important than distinguising from other pop-scifi, which it kinda fails at because; we can have transporters (Star Trek) or no transporters (Star Wars). Both situations are used in pop-scifi.
I see no reason why CCP could not decide to bring lore more in line with game mechanics in this case. They could just decide that transporters are invented. I guess the real question is, do we want that to happen? I guess my opinion is pretty clear.
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Mining lasers, on the other hand, do use something vaguely teleporter-esque. I think it is only good for raw materials, though. If I remember right, it basically vaporizes material, and then draws it in along the beam.
Mining lasers specifically have two components : A laser that breaks the rock down, and a tractor beam that hovers in the broken up rock bits.
As far as I am aware teleporter technology, as it is known by Startrek and otherwise, is non-existent outside of laboratory experiments in EVE. As mentioned the Jovians had a colossal fuck up with one in a public demonstration. Some speculated the Sansha were using a type of technology, but Tractor beam hoovering was the route taken instead.
Early EvE lore was rather specific about this tech not existing.
Much like alien races, it was meant to distinguish the universe from other pop-scifi.
I will asume you are correct.
But I think immersion aspects in this instance are more important than distinguising from other pop-scifi, which it kinda fails at because; we can have transporters (Star Trek) or no transporters (Star Wars). Both situations are used in pop-scifi.
I see no reason why CCP could not decide to bring lore more in line with game mechanics in this case. They could just decide that transporters are invented. I guess the real question is, do we want that to happen? I guess my opinion is pretty clear.
I am quite happy with the "little robotic drone helpers do a lot of the menial space work" approach. Everything from stations to starbases has a sortie of unseen helper drones that do the dangerous work that humans can't be assed to do. The instantaneous speed at which it happens is merely a convenience factor for us, and one of those 'best to ignore' considerations for EVE gameplay <-> lore. The existence and mass scale usage of teleporters would just introduce more wall-banging to the PF that doesn't need to be there.
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Instant transporters are too shiney and clean to my eyes for a setting like Eve.
It's like if Neo was suddenly beamed up to the Nebuchadnezzar just after having awoken from the red pill. The way it actually happens is way more gritty. The guy ends up unplugging itself with difficulty and the help of a spider drone (and it looks painful), and gets dumped into some hazardous liquid that makes me think of biomass waste disposal. Like ectoplasm.
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Early EvE lore was rather specific about this tech not existing.
Much like alien races, it was meant to distinguish the universe from other pop-scifi.
I will asume you are correct.
But I think immersion aspects in this instance are more important than distinguising from other pop-scifi, which it kinda fails at because; we can have transporters (Star Trek) or no transporters (Star Wars). Both situations are used in pop-scifi.
I see no reason why CCP could not decide to bring lore more in line with game mechanics in this case. They could just decide that transporters are invented. I guess the real question is, do we want that to happen? I guess my opinion is pretty clear.
The problem is that introducing a technology like matter-to-energy transporters just to explain how you loot shit is a terrible solution. To use one of CCP's favourite expressions: it opens up a can of worms.
Transporters work fine in Star Trek because the entire universe has been built around the idea of a post-scarcity society where you can have a computer instantly materialize your favourite food or transport you across space in the blink of an eye. Plots, technologies, strategies... they're all made with the existence of teleporters in mind, and even then there are matters they have shied away from exploring.
Introducing functional teleporters to the EVE universe would be a world-altering event. Everything from lore to gameplay would have to shift to accommodate the new technology - just to maintain the immersion you suggest it be shoehorned in to fix.
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Ghost and Caul: Can you give me some examples of the wallbanging and worm-can-opening?
Because I can't see any.
I'm especially interested in why and how lore and gameplay would have to shift.
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Instant transportation making stargates useless. Think about what would happen if the Empire even mastered Wormhole tech like Sansha does. Sansha is very close to use it as instant teleportation. You would end up in a society where starships are not always needed anymore. You can perfectly open a wormhole between Athra and Luminaire and send your troops directly here. Or open a wormhole between your corporate headquarters in Rens and your starbase living quarters in Anoikis.
Of course you can then bring up a limit to the range of the thing, sure. I haven't thought of all the possibilities yet.
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Although jump drives/portals linking up with cynos kind of are instant teleportation. Range limitation isn't necessarily a reason against Star Trek style transporters.
Having said that I'm absolutely not in favor of introducing that into the world of EVE. Introduce it and you face the challenge of having to introduce artificial limitations. Why can't you just transport 100 Marines on board of the other guy's ship? Or much more fun, vent the entire crew into space. Somehow the antagonists in Star Trek always beam boarding parties onto the Enterprise but they never just move the inhabitants of the bridge into space.
Ah, chivalry.
So, we've got 'camera drones'. We've got drones that move loot. It's even mentioned in the starbase changes devblog. So there you go. :p
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I was always fond of the 'beam an antimatter warhead onto their bridge, and get me some earl grey' tactical directive. For some reason 30 years of Trek captains kept forgetting it...as did Starfleet Shipyards, with the 'replicate a fleet on Thursday' initiative.
My Point: Energy/mass/teleportation technology barely works (narratively) in universes in which it's a cornerstone of the canon; it will do much much much more harm in a world designed with it's absence.
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Why can't you use bombs, DDDs, and cynos in high-sec?
The "artificial" limitations are already in place, as far as I can see. I'm not convinced that the problems with incorporating it into lore and gameplay (gameplay is already there, imo) are so great. The "drones did it" solution also raises questions.
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Why do you want this so badly?
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The complete lack of a fully-functioning transporter was one of the reasons I really enjoyed Enterprise when it first started.
They had one on board, sure, but it was experimental technology, and it was intended for the moving of cargo only, not living beings. Did they use it a few times to get out of tight scrapes? Sure, but it wasn't the cavalier "oh, just beam 'em out" attitude that was so prevalent in other Star Trek series. They knew damn well that the tech they were messing with was new, it was experimental, and there were lots of very big risks involved - and they even had one or two episodes dealing with mishaps involving what happened when things went horribly, horribly wrong.
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Don't shields in Star Trek block beaming attempts (with the exception of macguffin/deus ex machina species/techs for episodic *gasp* moments - borg for example)? Though beaming nukes into Wraith ships was a big thing in SG-Atlantis (no shields, it didn't work well on Goa-Uld ships because of this).
As for DD and bomb blocking in hi-sec - Aren't all capsuleer vessels riddled with space magic Jovian grade malware that can basically deny us ship control in certain situations? That same software that makes us less vulnerable to the Incursion DoS/viral attacks that prevent direct DED responce or the intervention of local Navies in a meaningful manner (and which also rendered ground defenses inert apparently).
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Shields - have fun with that in EVE, where some empire ship doctrines would be kinda stupid then. Or implement a magic shield that's not the standard shield that shields you from space magic.
Re: DD/Cyno.
Independant Capsuleers can't. CONCORD controls your ass and you're not allowed to break some of these rules. You don't see 99.9% of civilian space traffic, you can't shoot stations, you can't shoot planets whereever you want, you can't crash.
So, why do you want this so badly?
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Why can't you use bombs, DDDs, and cynos in high-sec?
Because CONCORD can lock down your modules, and the Empires have cynojammers in their systems.
The "artificial" limitations are already in place, as far as I can see. I'm not convinced that the problems with incorporating it into lore and gameplay (gameplay is already there, imo) are so great. The "drones did it" solution also raises questions.
If you use teleporters to extract loot from cans, why can't you extract your opponent's pod from their ship?
Why can't I teleport a nuclear charge on board my enemy's ship?
Why can't I teleport soldiers aboard my opponent's ship to capture it rather than destroy it?
And that's just the basest level of gameplay questions that would arise. If you have matter-to-energy teleportation you also give rise to these issues:
Why do I need to haul all my stuff across the universe? If mass can be accurately patterned as energy, why can't I convert my entire hangar into a battery?
Why do I need to grind asteroids to bits? Wouldn't it be easier to just use teleporter technology to extract the minerals straight from the rock? Or convert the whole rock to energy and not need to worry about storage space?
Why do I have to travel anywhere? If my character or ship can be converted to an energy pattern, why not just send that pattern via the fluid router system to instantly get materialized where I want to go?
Why do I need to be concerned about losing my stuff? If my ship and modules can be expressed as energy patterns, all I need is a station with a replicator to recreate it all.
Why do I need to build anything? If everything on the market can be abstracted to an energy pattern, why would anyone need to buy something from anyone else?
Yes, you might say "But H! You're super cool and all, but you're assuming Star Trek-type transporters. What if it's some other system!?". Well, the only other system for teleporters I can think of would be... wormholes. And EVE has very strict mechanics for how those work. For an on-demand wormhole, you need two collaborative end-points - either two conjoined stargates, or a jump drive/bridge and a cyno. Yes, there are also 'natural' or 'spontaneous' wormholes, but we don't have any method of controlling those. Additionally, we've never seen wormholes on such a fine level that one might be used to pick up a single module, and not only does that end of the hole need to be meter-perfect, the delivery side also needs to hit the right spot.
So to pick up loot using a wormhole solution you'd need: Talocan/Sleeper/Jovian/Sansha level control of non-cyno non-paired wormholes, on an unprecedented level of fine detail and miniaturization. And that still doesn't do away with questions such as "Why can't I use this to tear apart the enemy from the inside, or teleport a bomb to their ship, or open a wormhole to suck out all the air to suffocate their crew?"
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Instant transporters are too shiney and clean to my eyes for a setting like Eve.
It's like if Neo was suddenly beamed up to the Nebuchadnezzar just after having awoken from the red pill. The way it actually happens is way more gritty. The guy ends up unplugging itself with difficulty and the help of a spider drone (and it looks painful), and gets dumped into some hazardous liquid that makes me think of biomass waste disposal. Like ectoplasm.
How about not-so shiney-and-clean BLOODY transporters, that accidentally (~0.5% chance) can tear you apart in two? :eek:
Free clone as insurance provided!
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Don't shields in Star Trek block beaming attempts (with the exception of macguffin/deus ex machina species/techs for episodic *gasp* moments - borg for example)? Though beaming nukes into Wraith ships was a big thing in SG-Atlantis (no shields, it didn't work well on Goa-Uld ships because of this).
As for DD and bomb blocking in hi-sec - Aren't all capsuleer vessels riddled with space magic Jovian grade malware that can basically deny us ship control in certain situations? That same software that makes us less vulnerable to the Incursion DoS/viral attacks that prevent direct DED responce or the intervention of local Navies in a meaningful manner (and which also rendered ground defenses inert apparently).
Shields do block transporters according to ST canon, though I have vague memories of being able to do some magical voodoo with shield frequency modulation doodads to beam through them.
Enterprise took place before (most) starships had shielding as we know it, though.
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Instant transporters are too shiney and clean to my eyes for a setting like Eve.
It's like if Neo was suddenly beamed up to the Nebuchadnezzar just after having awoken from the red pill. The way it actually happens is way more gritty. The guy ends up unplugging itself with difficulty and the help of a spider drone (and it looks painful), and gets dumped into some hazardous liquid that makes me think of biomass waste disposal. Like ectoplasm.
How about not-so shiney-and-clean BLOODY transporters, that accidentally (~0.5% chance) can tear you apart in two? :eek:
Free clone as insurance provided!
Ah like in YC 107 when that Jove eccentric ambassador exploded himself into several pieces all across New Eden ?
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The biggest problem would be the replicator technology that would rear its utopian head after functioning transporters would be introduced.
No more scarcity in New Eden, no more grimdark.
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The biggest problem would be the replicator technology that would rear its utopian head after functioning transporters would be introduced.
No more scarcity in New Eden, no more grimdark.
E=mc^2 coupled with a less than perfect efficiency factor could take care of that problem. Essentially, you could have two ways of building things: The old fashioned way, and then using lots and lots and lots of energy to do energy to mass conversions. "Replicating" things from energy alone would, thus, require either a huge capacitor to be loaded with some "slower" energy sources, or a good supply of "fast" energy sources. Along with the nasty issue that half the energy spent is spent towards creating antimatter and only half to creating matter, which would greatly limit the use of energy-matter conversion, something mostly forgotten in "a wizard did it" style space opera. Or then there would need to be technology that builds rapidly stuff from protons, neutrons and electrons, requiring the harvest of suitable gases etc. for the raw materials.
Similarly, transporter efficiency could be limited by having transporters only function between specific machines (no beaming a warhead on board the enemy ship unless they're specifically allowing you to do send one to their transporter room).
Of course, neither thing is really needed in EVE. We already have perfectly average hand-waved methods of creating things.
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Transporters? In Eve?
... Um. Hm.
DUST 514 currently has a transporter of sorts, the "drop uplink." It's a portable spawn point about the size and shape of a dinner plate, great for dropping behind enemy lines as long as it stays hidden-- or for camping with a shotgun once it gets found.
Thing is, I'm pretty sure that it's not canonically a "teleportation device" any more than the cloning units are (you "materialize" outside those, too). The name suggests a beacon for precision-dropping individual suits, probably launched from the MCC.
Alternatively, it could be a pocket wormhole generator or short-range matter transporter with a nasty potential failure rate that makes it excessively dangerous for transporting anybody who isn't already immortal. It hasn't really been explained in detail.
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There's a Dust item that is described as a miniature wormhole projector for teleportation, but it's also pretty clear about the fact that use of it is very very very unhealthy for you.
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That's probably the drop uplink. I'll check its in-game desc and get back to you.
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Verified. The drop uplink is a short-range wormhole generator.
It's got a couple issues.
First, it's utterly agonizing to use, which is in keeping with grimdark and also with DUST's theme of disregard for soldiers' safety and comfort.
(No, DUST troopers apparently do not get their pain receptors switched off. The full sensory experience of getting double-tapped through the chest with flechette fire from a tactical sniper rifle, complete with shattered ribs, perforated lungs, and ruptured aorta, is yours to cherish in this life and the next [and the next, and the next, and the next].)
Second, that pain is not just your nerves being tricked into reporting damage; it's actual damage at the cellular level, causing celluar degeneration and death.
No mention of what it does to people nearby, or what fun kinds of radiation it spreads.
At a guess, this probably isn't a routine cargo loading device unless your crew is wearing hazmat gear.
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It's probably not even good for nonliving cargo - radiation fluxes have a habit of messing with anything more advanced than a vacuum tube.
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E=mc^2 coupled with a less than perfect efficiency factor could take care of that problem.
In a culture where you have free access to solar radiation and the energy created by it, wouldn't you have limitless amount of energy?
Thus pretty much making the less than perfect efficiency meaningless?
What my point is, if you have limitless amount of power, then efficiency is meaningless?
There has never been any lack of energy in New Eden...
I think this gets a bit complicated... because... I think it actually means that the scarcity that is in New Eden is created for the controlling of the population, just like in real world.... 8)
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It's probably not even good for nonliving cargo - radiation fluxes have a habit of messing with anything more advanced than a vacuum tube.
It can't be all that disruptive; DUST operatives' gear comes through in working order, even if the operative's clone now has a cellular half-life. Some of the lingering effects might be ... bad, however. Radioactive trade goods, FTW.
Anybody for clicking-hot protein delicacies? Anybody?
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I thought that the looting of cargo containers (from 1500m and less, later from 2500m and less), was due to small tractor beams?
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Ghost and Caul: Can you give me some examples of the wallbanging and worm-can-opening?
Because I can't see any.
I'm especially interested in why and how lore and gameplay would have to shift.
Running off the top of my head :
(Elf Drones = little helper drones that we never see, such as salvage drones before they existed as a model)
Teleporters are introduced, and either must be retconned into existence or unveiled as a new technology. Retconning has issues in streamlining the PF, as suddenly its presenting itself in situations where Elf Drones quite happily handled things (cargo moving, etc). Adding new technology is neat, but now we have to limit its applications very hard.
Teleport materials? Why not teleport bombs into the enemy ship? Well shields can stop them, oh wait the shields are gone - armor tankers get gibbed. Maybe armor can block teleport voodoo rays - ok now we're into structure. Instagib from structure? Maybe we should just not let them teleport into ships at all. What stops them from teleporting into ships? Inability to lock onto a moving object? Reason X for implications Y?
How about teleporting things from a planet to a ship? What can you teleport, and why? Can you teleport people ala Star Trek? No? How do you salvage people from wrecks if you use a teleporter instead of Elf Drones? Do you use both? Why put the space for a teleporter when the Elf Drones do it just fine already? Is the teleporter tech cheap and compact, expensive and compact, cheap but bulky?
If you can teleport, why not teleport your Capsule to a safe location some hundred kilometers away? If the teleporters have any kind of range, surely your matter can be relocated instantly once your ship explodes. No? Why can they not, are there certain materials and complexities you cannot teleport? Do you need to have some kind of heavy instracture to use the teleporter? If you can teleport goods from a planet to an orbiting structure, how is it better than using the railgun/rocket pod/etc methods already in use? Cheaper, more efficient, bigger load?
My point in essence, teleportation is an extremely powerful technology. You will need to be very clear in what it can do, and what it cannot do. The more you limit it for gameplay reasons, and then lore reasons, the more worthless it becomes. What ideal roles teleporters would be good in, technology already exists for. Cheaper, more reliable and (vaguely?) established technologies. If this was the start of EVE Online, you could make an argument for teleporters. Nowadays, we just have everything they do covered already in EVE's unique way.
This is in part why the Sansha's Nation Wormhole Generator technology is a Big Deal™, it's the ultimate form of teleporter. The ability to instantly go anywhere in space from Point A to Point B with seemingly unrestrained capacity for your star ships. In lieu of any new details limiting this technology, it's an End Game level of power. Nothing compares to it, in theory you could start opening wormholes inside planetary cores and ripping them apart from the inside. Were it to start being used for anything other than 'ominous threat', it would have to be removed immediately or stripped down to worthlessness to balance the game environment.
Edit ; Just to head off the 'but Incursions are already using it!' line of thinking. The full potential of the teleporter/Wormhole technology and the Nation's military might are not being brought to bear, or presented as such. This is a very clear limitation from a game master design perspective, the same as with every other faction. I'm speaking largely in the context of it existing as a 'background prop', much like how Elf Drones do.
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Why do you want this so badly?
I don't know what gave the impression that I want this so badly. I just prefer game mechanics being in sync with lore.
Why can't you use bombs, DDDs, and cynos in high-sec?
Because CONCORD can lock down your modules, and the Empires have cynojammers in their systems.
My question was rethorical in nature, and was an answer to Desiderya's questions, that are very similar to those you ask. I should have been more clear about that. The same reasons why you can't teleport bombs on ships etc. can also be the CONCORD hardwiring that restricts bomb use.
Nearly every tech in EVE, even Elf Drones, raises questions and needs to be thought out. I still don't see where transporter tech is any different from other sci-fi tech in EVE in that regard.
Also, in game mechanic terms, it is pretty clear what they could or could not do: the same things the Elf Drones can or can't do.
Personally, I think the best tech for EVE transporters is not based on Energy<->Mass conversion or wormholes, but on warp drives.
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My impression (thematic and continuity concerns aside) is that the use of drones achieves the same end in terms of explaining the end result, without raising as many awkward questions to be answered.
"We use drones to grab the stuff -- like camera drones, you don't see them, but they do the job." against "We use teleporters -- but you can't teleport items between stations because w, you can't teleport things on or off enemy ships because x, you still need to use stargates because y, none of this stuff works in null either despite the lack of CONCORD because z...".
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Still.
Where is the benefit if you'd include teleporters. I think that it'd make things insanely more difficult because you'd have to restrict it heavily while offering what exactly?
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Regarding warp drives, I'm not actually sure that warping works in lore the same way it does via game mechanics, with being able to see everything as you move.
I seem to recall the old scientific article saying it works a lot more like the MJDs work now, where you blink out of existence in your origin position, then reappear some time later at your destination.
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The question is rather "what do we see at such speeds ?" With a microwarpdrive, it is still sublight, but with a classic warpdrive...
For microjumpdrives and jumpdrives, that's different, it's (mostly) instantaneous, like through a wormhole between 2 points.
Speculation : warp drives only partially distort space to make distances get a lot smaller, where jump drives distort it completely to make the distance between 2 points null.
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Regarding warp drives, I'm not actually sure that warping works in lore the same way it does via game mechanics, with being able to see everything as you move.
I seem to recall the old scientific article saying it works a lot more like the MJDs work now, where you blink out of existence in your origin position, then reappear some time later at your destination.
The old scientific article says that warp travel works on a basis of quantum vacuum states.
No, I don't know what that means either.
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I may be thinking of some chronicles or other stuff then.
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Regarding warp drives, I'm not actually sure that warping works in lore the same way it does via game mechanics, with being able to see everything as you move.
I seem to recall the old scientific article saying it works a lot more like the MJDs work now, where you blink out of existence in your origin position, then reappear some time later at your destination.
The old scientific article says that warp travel works on a basis of quantum vacuum states.
No, I don't know what that means either.
As I recall, there was something about a frictionless space bubble something something quantum something something faster than light something something.
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Regarding warp drives, I'm not actually sure that warping works in lore the same way it does via game mechanics, with being able to see everything as you move.
I seem to recall the old scientific article saying it works a lot more like the MJDs work now, where you blink out of existence in your origin position, then reappear some time later at your destination.
The old scientific article says that warp travel works on a basis of quantum vacuum states.
No, I don't know what that means either.
As in so many things, you can work out what the principle is by finding what works to stop it.
As I understand it, a warp drive functions by sucking energy out from around a ship, leaving the ship very "loosely stuck" in the universe. A useful approach might be to conceptualize a ship in warp as having been cut off from the universe, existing as an isolated pocket. Changing that pocket's position with respect to the rest of the universe is now much easier, and need not involve doing business with such pesky constants as C.
This is the impression I got from reading up on warp scramblers, which function by pumping energy into the "vacuum" envelope the warp drive is trying to create. This also explains why weaker scramblers can be defeated by stronger warp drives, and vice versa-- a stronger scrambler pours more energy in; a stronger warp drive bails more energy out.
Interesting idea. Still vile pseudoscience, but conceptually interesting.
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It has also been used to explain why our ships seem to be flying in something like a light oil, rather than a vacuum, and have a top speed when not in warp. When not in use the warp drive exerts a sort of 'drag' on the ship, limiting its maximum velocity. That part is player, rather than dev, created though afaik.
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Vaun, Desiderya: I don't think I can provide better answers to your concerns than I have, I would just be going in circles.
I can only add some of the questions the Elf Drones can raise: How is it that they work instantly, even when extracting living human beings? How come even a shuttle carries enough drones to instantly teleport thousands of m3 instantly? Why do they only work when within certain ranges? Why can't I blow them up to stop people from stealing my stuffs? Why can't I use them to disable other drones? Why do they still work when I'm smartbombing?
I think Aristotle would have something to contribute to this thread. ;)
Oh, and here's the Warp Drives article (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Warp_drives).
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I think this has reached the point where one side is set against them well enough and one side so firmly in favour of them that continuing isn't going to lead very far in either direction, then.
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Lol, depleted vacuum. Isn't a vacuum already depleted of everything by definition ? :P
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You'd think so, but no (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_energy).
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Sorry, I confused vacuum with void.
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Vaun, Desiderya: I don't think I can provide better answers to your concerns than I have, I would just be going in circles.
I can only add some of the questions the Elf Drones can raise: How is it that they work instantly, even when extracting living human beings? How come even a shuttle carries enough drones to instantly teleport thousands of m3 instantly? Why do they only work when within certain ranges? Why can't I blow them up to stop people from stealing my stuffs? Why can't I use them to disable other drones? Why do they still work when I'm smartbombing?
I think Aristotle would have something to contribute to this thread. ;)
Oh, and here's the Warp Drives article (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Warp_drives).
Fair enough, but I still think the questions the elf drones raise require far less handwavium than the 'solution' to them. If you begin to slice down the game mechanics into small bits and try to explain them from a realism point of view you're not going to get far. The issues you're describing are mostly game mechanical limits, whereas the reasons stated against teleporters are more firmly rooted in a lore perspective. So, yes, I can understand why Star Trek style teleportation does a better job at explaining what we see in the client.
However, what we see in the client is not necessarily what happens in the game world.
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Thank goodness, or I'd be reaching for the 1 billionth Sansha death at my hands or something by now...