Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Seriphyn on 12 Nov 2010, 13:29
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This has caused some stumblingblocks in-character within RP, so I think it needs to be brought up. Some Sansha RPers believe that the victims of the abductions were willing. I'm not one to go "ur doin it wrong" hardly ever, but I would like to encourage that this thought is not universalized. 2 million people are NOT going to just get up and walk to the dropships willingly, like "Oh, hey, let's abandon our perfectly content lives and become mindless clones". HOWEVER, out of 2 million people, you WILL get the crazy Gallentean teenager or other fanatics (hell, there ARE sympathizers, as per Caldari State dealing with them) that will willingly send themselves to the dropships. These are, however, not going to be the majority. In a world like EVE, something crazy like "mind control ray beams" is very likely. Not to mention there is ground side resistance, a la...
2010.05.14 02:39:44 ] Omune Balenne > All surface invasions repelled by local forces.
In regards to mindless clones, there is some serious dispute over this. But this is what they are. As per the Sansha's Nation (http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=jan01-01) chron, it is stated that "Sansha’s dream was that these zombie-like creatures could be used as soldiers and guards, thus freeing humans to pursue more peaceful and productive lifestyles". These are True Slaves. From the Stain landmark description it states that "Stations hanging in space that are unnaturally quiet, the passive stares of the denizens sending a chill down even the hardiest of spines."
Then we have True Citizens, like Citizen Astur, who are the humans that pursue such "peaceful and productive lifestyles". I think some thought them to be a player invention, but this is not so...from the Esoteria regional description...
When Sansha's Nation was at the height of its power, Esoteria was one of its richest territories. Scholars, philosophers, scientists, and many of its most affluent True Citizens made it their home. The occupants relied on the remoteness of the region to keep them safe, anticipating that the legions of True Slaves in Stain would remain an impenetrable shield that none could pass.
As such, and willing victims for Sansha's Nation would likely become True Citizens if they have an affinity for creativity. Otherwise, they become mindless clones. In regards to supposed "lack of resistance", there is a clue if one goes on SiSi and looks through Encounters on their journal
The Nation’s influence over system-wide infrastructure is starting to be ruthlessly exploited to the maximum extent possible. Officers in some affected systems are now reporting that Sansha have blocked local news outlets and even emergency broadcast systems from transmitting vital data. Although there are a number of obvious tactical advantages to such a move, the nature and pattern of the Nation’s censorship is neither consistent nor predictable. There may be a more subtle and insidious goal behind these attacks or perhaps their jamming technology is not yet perfected. In either case, these propaganda clusters, although militarily insignificant, nonetheless pose a significant threat to the continued stability of densely populated planets and systems under attack.
What I have highlighted is a clue as to what this apparent willing victim business is about. Sansha's Nation are marketed as the big bad monster that will eat your brains; they have been kidnapping people from unnotable deadspace colonies since their original defeat (as per mission briefings), just now they have upped their game. Considering that...
True Creations is suspected to be chiefly responsible for the re-cloning and implantation of abducted planetside civilians.
The abductees are being taken, implanted, and being cloned and recloned (as per Haeldone Dorgiers comment). "Willing victims" seems very unlikely.
NOW, the BIGGEST thing that is revealed in Incursion is the true intentions of what Sansha Kuvakei desires...
One of the most significant evolutions in the Nation’s strategy has been the move away from abducting planetary populations. Their new tactical doctrine, which relies in part upon system-wide capsule interference, is clearly focused on limiting the power and influence of the capsuleer class.
Crossreferenced with...
Do you know what you are, capsuleer? The truth will not comfort you.
You are a frightened child running headfirst towards oblivion.
And I?
I am the only one who tried to stop you.
I am the Messiah that you turned against.
You persecuted me, hunted my children.
Vowed to burn my Promised Land to ash.
Now I have returned, and I know you better than you know yourself.
I will vanquish your fear, and commute your flesh to dust.
- Sansha Kuvakei
The target of these attacks are the capsuleers. The abductions were merely a way to amass a large enough force to confront the capsuleers and enact his revenge.
As such, enacting utopia seems to have very little to do with it. In THIS way, I feel that Sansha's Nation has a fantastic redeeming factor: Destroy the capsuleers. This is what they intend, and I think it's brilliant. Nothing to do with exterminating humanity at all. In fact, trying to do them a favour.
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Nothing to do with exterminating humanity at all. In fact, trying to do them a favour.
I have been creeping closer and closer to this conclusion for a few weeks.
Great and necessary thread, Seri.
I'll say this much. I don't think all of the abductees were willing (and you make a clear case for on-the-ground resistence), but I'm more inclined to imagine a sizable portion of them did get on the dropships at least during those early raids. The idea that the Sansha might have infiltrated colonies years or decades in advance and subtlely (or perhaps not so subtlely) manipulated their populations into adopting a Heaven's Gate style belief that salvation was coming is more terrifying than any mind control ray or outright overpowering of throngs of people.
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That was one of my alternative beliefs regarding the lack of resistance. Subtle manipulation of the populations...in FACT...
In defence of the willing victims story...they may have very well gone onto the dropships because they have been told they will be serving the cause to defeat the capsuleers. This can be combined with a long term manipulation and infiltration of such worlds and colonies beforehand. Big maybe, however...considering even newborns and elderly were taken too...some of those elderly may be veterans of the Nation-Empires War and thus despise Sansha...but this may be one explanation.
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/me high-fives Seriphyn.
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Let it be known I consider this entire topic a "ur doing it wrong" topic, but I will nonetheless attempt to answer what Seriphyn has said.
This has caused some stumblingblocks in-character within RP, so I think it needs to be brought up. Some Sansha RPers believe that the victims of the abductions were willing. I'm not one to go "ur doin it wrong" hardly ever, but I would like to encourage that this thought is not universalized. 2 million people are NOT going to just get up and walk to the dropships willingly, like "Oh, hey, let's abandon our perfectly content lives and become mindless clones". HOWEVER, out of 2 million people, you WILL get the crazy Gallentean teenager or other fanatics (hell, there ARE sympathizers, as per Caldari State dealing with them) that will willingly send themselves to the dropships. These are, however, not going to be the majority. In a world like EVE, something crazy like "mind control ray beams" is very likely. Not to mention there is ground side resistance, a la...
We are painfully aware that those who go into the dropships willingly may very well be a small minority. We have utilized the lack of information in this regard in order to further our moral image, however. There are those of us who wish the universe was so grim dark that people do in fact willingly go on the transports, and there are the obvious systematic harvester borg types. I make it a point of emphasizing willing abductees because it adds a moral dynamic to my faction that clouds the "absolute evil" EVERYONE insists on making us. There has not been a definite conclusion to either method, hence both are valid and in use by us.
In regards to mindless clones, there is some serious dispute over this. But this is what they are. As per the Sansha's Nation chron, it is stated that "Sansha’s dream was that these zombie-like creatures could be used as soldiers and guards, thus freeing humans to pursue more peaceful and productive lifestyles". These are True Slaves. From the Stain landmark description it states that "Stations hanging in space that are unnaturally quiet, the passive stares of the denizens sending a chill down even the hardiest of spines."
Then we have True Citizens, like Citizen Astur, who are the humans that pursue such "peaceful and productive lifestyles". I think some thought them to be a player invention, but this is not so...from the Esoteria regional description...
You really should consider whose perspective that information is being written from.
It may very well be true that the first generations of True Slaves were mindless automation, but this Nation is very different from the one a century ago. The technology has improved, the morals and ethics have changed, and Master Kuvakei is approaching this subject from an entirely different angle now. Trying to extrapolate the Nation's motivations a century ago, to what it is doing now, would be a horribly incorrect way to go about it.
As such, and willing victims for Sansha's Nation would likely become True Citizens if they have an affinity for creativity. Otherwise, they become mindless clones. In regards to supposed "lack of resistance", there is a clue if one goes on SiSi and looks through Encounters on their journal...
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What I have highlighted is a clue as to what this apparent willing victim business is about. Sansha's Nation are marketed as the big bad monster that will eat your brains; they have been kidnapping people from unnotable deadspace colonies since their original defeat (as per mission briefings), just now they have upped their game. Considering that...
How or why people are designated to being a True Slave or a True Citizen is an unknown process, even for me. However, willingly or not, people are fitted to the role they are best suited for. The Burning Life makes a point of emphasizing how brains can be sectioned off to allow only creative thoughts, but no mathematical capabilities, and so on.
A person does not have to be 'willing' to become a True Citizen. The implants only exert control, the indoctrination is what makes them Nation's forever.
The abductees are being taken, implanted, and being cloned and recloned (as per Haeldone Dorgiers comment). "Willing victims" seems very unlikely.
It would be prudent to consider the extreme mental shift people go through when empowered by Nation's technologies. A promise to return again and again leads one to never fear death, ala Capsuleers. There is, barring evidence, no painful or some horrifying process people undergo every time they are recloned as if it was some b-rated scifi horror movie (hello Event Horizon).
The target of these attacks are the capsuleers. The abductions were merely a way to amass a large enough force to confront the capsuleers and enact his revenge.
As such, enacting utopia seems to have very little to do with it. In THIS way, I feel that Sansha's Nation has a fantastic redeeming factor: Destroy the capsuleers. This is what they intend, and I think it's brilliant. Nothing to do with exterminating humanity at all. In fact, trying to do them a favour.
How on earth can it be considered revenge when the Capsuleers didn't exist during Nation's fall? (The player types, not the PF types)
The Nation has and never will be about exterminating humanity, not so long as the original Sansha Kuvakei controls it. Exterminating humanity is the Equilibrium of Mankind's gimmick. Kuvakei earnestly believes himself to be a prophet/messiah/savior and bringer of a Promised Land (see the chronicle and the Revenant's quote). The greatest threat to his utopia for humanity is the Capsuleers, a virulent plague of uncontrolled weapons who are a step away from destroying all life in the galaxy if their interfaces allowed them to.
I consider revenge an unlikely motivation. Much like gardening, the Nation is attempting to remove unwanted weeds and invasive plants from its perfect eden. Revenge would be Kuvakei unleashing Kyonoke on the Amarrians for their betrayal a century ago.
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I will nonetheless attempt to answer what Seriphyn has said.
Thank you. Responses were very informative.
How on earth can it be considered revenge when the Capsuleers didn't exist during Nation's fall? (The player types, not the PF types)
One thought: they have been blowing up his stuff for seven and a half years or so.
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But you can't defeat capsuleers just like that, they rather should focus first on the stations with cloning filicitys, and after destroying some of them then start fighting directly with us.
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But you can't defeat capsuleers just like that, they rather should focus first on the stations with cloning filicitys, and after destroying some of them then start fighting directly with us.
[speculation]Later even more effective incursions will suspense station services like cloning bays, resulting in the use of "soft copy" backup clones with attendant skill point loss (and possible retconning of the PF). This mechanic will also provide a market for new skill training accelerator boosters and/or one-time skill point purchasing.[/speculation] No... no, that would be horrific. :ugh:
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But you can't defeat capsuleers just like that, they rather should focus first on the stations with cloning filicitys, and after destroying some of them then start fighting directly with us.
Destroying the moral of the enemy is one of the steps one has to take against Capsuleers.
Invading their perceived "sanctums" and posing a serious, credible threat can damage their mentality quite heavily.
Imagine how freighter carebears will feel getting killed by Sansha gate camps, for instance.
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I FC'ed a fleet on a Sisi.
"Thought to have been a member of Sansha’s Nation for many decades, the individual who identifies as “Slave 32152” is known for her unwavering commitment to Sansha’s cause. Few are indoctrinated to the same degree as her, and it was usually her and not Citizen Astur (the main Nation propagandist) who caught the imagination of supporters and news media alike."
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Soter, you do realize those are all told in the form of the ISHAEKA reports, right? You know... CONCORD's perspective? At the bottom of all those flavor texts?
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It wasn't an Ishaeka release.
Also, I'm not sure what you want me to 'realize', I just copy-pasted the flavor text. I assume the perspective is that of the capsuleers, IE, the ship computer preparing a intelligence dossier for your viewing pleasure.
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The abductions were merely a way to amass a large enough force to confront the capsuleers and enact his revenge.
This is something that I just mentioned IC a few minutes ago, but I thought I'd ask here. Do we have any numbers on how many Sansha ships have been destroyed in these raids? I haven't been following it as closely as many of you, but I'm under the impression that they've lost quite a few carriers and even more battleships. I'd think the crew losses (not to mention dropship/infantry losses) would go a long ways towards offsetting any gains they've made in the manpower department.
Which is to say: I'm not sure they're after numbers.
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Nation knows things™ about cloning and using stored brain patterns, (as seen in the pro-nation branch of the Amarr epic arc).
This suggests to me, that crew losses are trivial to Nation, because they are all synthetic people. And are replaced as easily as ships are.
Which then leads on to asking what it is that they are after? New genes and talents and personalities for their resource pool? After 100 years, are Nations stored personalities in need of fresh input to mould Nation into an entity for the modern age?
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Might be just that making a True Slave is easy that way. Getting a True Citizens might be the challenge.
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Nation knows things™ about cloning and using stored brain patterns, (as seen in the pro-nation branch of the Amarr epic arc).
This suggests to me, that crew losses are trivial to Nation, because they are all synthetic people. And are replaced as easily as ships are.
Which then leads on to asking what it is that they are after? New genes and talents and personalities for their resource pool? After 100 years, are Nations stored personalities in need of fresh input to mould Nation into an entity for the modern age?
I doubt genetics is a factor with a faction like the Blood Raider Covenant as one of its 'close allies'. Samples of DNA from all across the cluster would not be hard to purchase from them.
Different personalities for fresh perspective might be a valid approach. I do not consider it likely, since the Nation seems to permit colonies near and in its space that have free thought for a while. A sort of human farming technique for thinking patterns, as it were.
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What happened to the idea that at least some of those taken were being 'combined' or 'distilled' to form capsuleers?
Did it become unpopular or is it thought to only apply to a minority?
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What happened to the idea that at least some of those taken were being 'combined' or 'distilled' to form capsuleers?
Did it become unpopular or is it thought to only apply to a minority?
That is largely what was talked about in the case of Slave Heavenbound02, who was the merger between a mother and her child.
To the extent of my knowledge no other Slave commander is created in the same fashion, although there might be normal True Slaves of that kind we don't see.
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The brain thingie is interesting.
There is a book by a woman and its called a Stroke of Insight, where she describes her experience as she suffers a stroke where she loses the use of the whole left side of her brain (the 'logical', thinking side.)
After a while she did get back her full faculties but while she was functioning with just the right side of the brain she was in a constant state of bliss and wonder.
With such manipulation the True Slaves would not be 'mindless drones' they could be people living their lives blissfully happy in whatever they do, from the most menial task to the most horrifying one. With a few snips in the brain their 'bliss' could be manipulated in a such way that it would not express itself in a disrupting manner.
Making the Naqam Happychip™ the reason that being a True Slave would actually be something to strive for in a person that is living in the lower classes of the EVE societies.
After taking out ground forces during an invasion the Sansha send out a cloud of nanites that block the use of the left side of the brain, leaving the streets full of people with no concept of time (just living in the moment) who would happily follow anyone anywhere.
Naqam Happychip™ = Utopia chip from Syndicate games.
EDIT:Linky to a TED talk by the woman (who happens to be a scientist.) (http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/jill_bolte_taylor_s_powerful_stroke_of_insight.html)
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Making the Naqam Happychip™ the reason that being a True Slave would actually be something to strive for in a person that is living in the lower classes of the EVE societies.
After taking out ground forces during an invasion the Sansha send out a cloud of nanites that block the use of the left side of the brain, leaving the streets full of people with no concept of time (just living in the moment) who would happily follow anyone anywhere.
Adds new meaning to the term "class warfare". Even if they end up being nothing more than drones, the propaganda message of liberation from a universe that cares nothing for them and can never bring them happiness would be potent in the right audience. Then once you've got 'em, melt 'em down for biomass or do whatever Sanshas will do.
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The brain thingie is interesting.
There is a book by a woman and its called a Stroke of Insight, where she describes her experience as she suffers a stroke where she loses the use of the whole left side of her brain (the 'logical', thinking side.)
After a while she did get back her full faculties but while she was functioning with just the right side of the brain she was in a constant state of bliss and wonder.
So... constant bliss and wonder, and all I have to do is damage the left half of my brain?
*looks at icepick*
After taking out ground forces during an invasion the Sansha send out a cloud of nanites that block the use of the left side of the brain, leaving the streets full of people with no concept of time (just living in the moment) who would happily follow anyone anywhere.
Who needs nanites when you have the Book of Emptiness.
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The brain thingie is interesting.
There is a book by a woman and its called a Stroke of Insight, where she describes her experience as she suffers a stroke where she loses the use of the whole left side of her brain (the 'logical', thinking side.)
After a while she did get back her full faculties but while she was functioning with just the right side of the brain she was in a constant state of bliss and wonder.
So... constant bliss and wonder, and all I have to do is damage the left half of my brain?
*looks at icepick*
After taking out ground forces during an invasion the Sansha send out a cloud of nanites that block the use of the left side of the brain, leaving the streets full of people with no concept of time (just living in the moment) who would happily follow anyone anywhere.
Who needs nanites when you have the Book of Emptiness.
I thought they didn't get that? I don't know, I never read Black Mountain, but I thought that Hona and her bunch ended up with it.
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The Book of Emptiness was a Jovian device. Since the beginning of the attacks, it appears that the Sansha had been able to take control of a Jovian station, in their capital system. It's possible they acquired some variant of the device before the attacks began.
Interesting thought though. If we ran into Yulai Crus Cerebri's and the like, what about the people taken from the station in J23532 or whatever it was? will we run into them at some point?
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Mulling it over, I think Sansha RPers will have to put up with being the "lol mindless zombies" faction, even if there is more to it than that, the same way Gallente RPers have always had to put up with being the "lol whores and french" faction, even if it's more about "utopian" motifs like crystalline cities and all that jazz.
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Which then leads on to asking what it is that they are after?
I doubt genetics is a factor with a faction like the Blood Raider Covenant as one of its 'close allies'. Samples of DNA from all across the cluster would not be hard to purchase from them.
Different personalities for fresh perspective might be a valid approach. I do not consider it likely, since the Nation seems to permit colonies near and in its space that have free thought for a while. A sort of human farming technique for thinking patterns, as it were.
Hmm, good points. Still, question remains, I think.
What is it that Sansha Kuvakei wants?
Ships are replaceable, crews are replaceable, genetics + personalities easily come by. Nation doesn't fit conventional material wealth motivations.
So, what do they want?
I think, maybe, that that question is no closer to being answered than it was before these events started.
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Which then leads on to asking what it is that they are after?
I doubt genetics is a factor with a faction like the Blood Raider Covenant as one of its 'close allies'. Samples of DNA from all across the cluster would not be hard to purchase from them.
Different personalities for fresh perspective might be a valid approach. I do not consider it likely, since the Nation seems to permit colonies near and in its space that have free thought for a while. A sort of human farming technique for thinking patterns, as it were.
Hmm, good points. Still, question remains, I think.
What is it that Sansha Kuvakei wants?
Ships are replaceable, crews are replaceable, genetics + personalities easily come by. Nation doesn't fit conventional material wealth motivations.
So, what do they want?
I think, maybe, that that question is no closer to being answered than it was before these events started.
(http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/3092/jjv6s5.gif)
That may or may not be the case, but I have generally made it our top policy to contain all information we receive that is of any type of sensitivity. Perhaps the developers expected us to release or leak key segments of it at a time into the public, perhaps not. The policy won't change unless I am told to otherwise.
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Hmm, good points. Still, question remains, I think.
What is it that Sansha Kuvakei wants?
Ships are replaceable, crews are replaceable, genetics + personalities easily come by. Nation doesn't fit conventional material wealth motivations.
So, what do they want?
I think, maybe, that that question is no closer to being answered than it was before these events started.
Or perhaps you are over-thinking the entire situation. What if it's as simple as revenge against the "fools" who could not see his vision?
"But Capsuleers weren't around when Nation was destroyed!"
Ah, but the Empires were. Capsuleers fight their wars, do their dirty work. Capsuleers are the pawns of the Empires, the pets of CONCORD. No matter how fractious and divided, Capsuleers still provide services to the Empires and CONCORD still holds sway over them.
Destroy the Capsuleers, and not only are the Empires hobbled, but CONCORD loses it's primary mandate. Would the Empires put aside their differences after years of war? Probably not. So, take out the claws and teeth (Capsuleers in this case), and the Empires are at the mercy of Nation.
It's rather simple really. What does Nation want? Probably not the right question. What does Kuvakei want? To get Capsuleers out of the way so he can take revenge on the closed-minded.
The "Heirs to a Mistake" are Capsuleers, the mistake was destroying Nation, not by said Capsuleers, but by the Empires that birthed them. Hence the "Heir" part. Extending that analogy, what exactly gave birth to that mistake? Individual freedoms taken to extremes, and not seeing the potential for working together. Which Capsuleers continue to make.
I mean honestly, you don't think Kuvakei is mad because the Jove gave them the capsule do you? :bear:
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Something that occurs to me (and no, I most likely won't be the one to do it):
If no one has already done this, it would be really helpful for someone to put together a database of all the bits of flavor text for all the various faction sites. Some of them don't have much material, but some seem to contain tantalizing bits of knowledge-- and the only people who can be nearly guaranteed not to find those are the people who refuse to attack that particular faction!
Consequently, the loyalists of a given faction often know the least about it.
Anybody know of such a database or feel like starting one?
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That would probably make sense at the Lorebook.
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We are painfully aware that those who go into the dropships willingly may very well be a small minority. We have utilized the lack of information in this regard in order to further our moral image, however.
I'd agree with the above.
I feel the liberty pill news arc was likely intended to give us a view on how the people in general view the abductions. I also feel Sansha propaganda about people joining them willingly is perfectly appropriate, and something that fits nicely into the story. :)
Links to liberty pill news arc, for those interested:
http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=4053&tid=4
http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=4055&tid=4
http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=4057&tid=4
http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=4059&tid=4
http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=4061&tid=4
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That would probably make sense at the Lorebook.
Yes. There is still a lot of PF out there that I have not documented yet. Especially at the DED sites as I do not run them.
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Just forgot this (http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=3944&tid=3) which goes some way to explaining the public attitude and reaction regarding Sansha.
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Well, I'd say it demonstrates the public reaction rather than explaining it.
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I know that EVE is, in general, a very "shades of grey" place.
Nobody has the moral high ground. Everyone has elements of good and bad inside of them. This is both in person and as groups. Much like the real world in fact. To my mind this is a Good Thing.
However even in the real world there are and have been groups and people that have no redeeming qualities whatsoever (with the possible exception of the original motives in creating them). As a player I honestly believe the Sansha to be such a group. I haven't seen a single thing in game or here to make me think otherwise.
Of course this doesn't mean a Sansha loyalist character might not honestly believe that they are a force for good. They'd just be wrong.
And just to clarify. I have no problem with people playing Sansha loyalists. I think It's great that otherwise opposed groups can find themselves with a common enemy if for no other reason that it gives a good IC reason to speak to people that you'd otherwise just shoot at.
I just disagree with an OOC perception of the Sansha as anything other than the Borg with better tactics and PR. This is, for me, an entirely trivial difference of opinion and one I can cheerfully debate without any danger of real dislike of people who think otherwise.
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However even in the real world there are and have been groups and people that have no redeeming qualities whatsoever (with the possible exception of the original motives in creating them). As a player I honestly believe the Sansha to be such a group. I haven't seen a single thing in game or here to make me think otherwise.
Of course this doesn't mean a Sansha loyalist character might not honestly believe that they are a force for good. They'd just be wrong.
I dont see this as any different to any other faction. What, in your opinion, is the redeeming quality of the amarr, khanid, angels or guirista's. The list goes on.
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I dont see this as any different to any other faction. What, in your opinion, is the redeeming quality of the amarr, khanid, angels or guirista's. The list goes on.
I can imagine reasonable people in situations which made them choose to follow those paths. Nothing about the Amarr, Khanid, Angels or Guristas makes them inhuman.
I'm not sure that I can say the same about the Sansha.
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I would have to concur with what Arnuld said, including the bit about the fact that IC it's absolutely fine to RP, and makes for compelling, and wonderfully twisted characters.
Sansha's Nation is the "odd one out" in terms of shades of grey. The Amarr Empire's religion has been the cause of "much good" as well as much evil, but the biggest thing is that they have created a stable nation-state that has existed for centuries (it's like saying China are absolutely evil because they are oligarchic communists, the same way saying all of the Empire is evil because of slavery). Even the Angels and Guristas have created somewhat of a state of their own, even if it is totalitarian and establishing a pecking order over what would be anarchy.
Sansha's Nation however is unique. From all the PF, they haven't seemed to create a working nation-state that provides them any redeeming qualities. TBL was especially chilling in this regard. But I'm not about to go IC that "Your characters are evil rawrrawr" because obviously they are going to believe they are doing the right thing.
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Sansha's Nation however is unique. From all the PF, they haven't seemed to create a working nation-state that provides them any redeeming qualities.
The four major empires turned their combined attention towards a rapidly growing Nation building a working nation-state. It is unique amongst the non-empires as being the only one of them to have the objective of growing to be a working nation-state. It was invaded and forced to scatter for doing so.
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Sansha's Nation however is unique. From all the PF, they haven't seemed to create a working nation-state that provides them any redeeming qualities.
The four major empires turned their combined attention towards a rapidly growing Nation building a working nation-state. It is unique amongst the non-empires as being the only one of them to have the objective of growing to be a working nation-state. It was invaded and forced to scatter for doing so.
Indeed. And that in itself should tell you something. If groups that are usually so opposed could work together for a common goal then there must have been some reason for it.
And I don't think it was envy. I think it was fear.
And I further doubt it was fear that the Sansha would become a shining beacon of hope that their citizens/subjects would run to.
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And just to finally hammer down the nail I give you the latest chronicle, The Plague Years.
http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=29-11-10 (http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=29-11-10)
Are you still so sure that every other NPC is wrong and Sansha loyalist's aren't dupes?
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And just to finally hammer down the nail I give you the latest chronicle, The Plague Years.
http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=29-11-10 (http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=29-11-10)
Are you still so sure that every other NPC is wrong and Sansha loyalist's aren't dupes?
How is it a 'hammer in the nail' when you are reading primarily from the perspective of the person opposed, who poisoned his guest, and then shot him in the head when there was no hostility involved? Usually there is meaning to the picture illustrated to the moment made in the chron. When you initially look at the picture before reading, isn't the first thing that pops into your mind 'Who is the victim?'. This doesn't change here in this story, regardless of what flag our character holds as we play them.
How do you say otherwise, when the victim of the story, was the one trying to reason? Negotiate? Display a wide range of emotions throughout the whole 'scene' of the short story, while the main character calls his side 'mindless drones' and 'zombies'? There is alot more going on here that meets the eye, nor will we fully understand what happened in the past that was discussed as it seemed it was an opportunity that was never allowed to prove itself.
It's the same overbearing irrational fear present that mirrors what the coalition side has believed and spread in propaganda. So much so the point where they overexaggerate and jump to conclusions where things they say to doesn't matter anymore. Where truth or fabricated lie become indistriguishable from each other, and everyone feeds off each other in the momentum to justify killing more Sansha.
Again, think of the Liberty pill incident, which paints the fear of both the standard capsuleer and stories they are told about Nation, and the position civilians have riled themselves over from this pressure cooker of being between a rock and a hard place. Where the image of the capsuleer is death incarnate, and Nation is the biggest boogieman story told in the cluster.
Is Nation these shining beacons of hope? Arvo will say yes, but I of course can objectively say not so much. Are the civilians at the sites all coming willingly? Of course not, but you would likely be surprised it would be more than you'd think if you looked in the right places for 'why'. Are Nation the 'good guys'? For this event, I'm inclined to say 'yes' in light of the timing and other things surrounding them, but remember all the factions are gray. If all anyone ever does is listen to one side of the story for all purposes of us looking into the grand stage that is the cluster, we surrender ourselves into being ignorant and becoming a statistic in a TV trope (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChewbaccaDefense).
What frustrates myself as roleplaying a loyalist to Nation is not only the lack of support offered by the expansion, but the fact there is great pile of circumstanial evidence surrounding the faction to suggest there is much more than the evil one-dimensional villains everyone who briefly glances at them, wishes them to be. I begin to wonder what can I do as a player, in order to do in my part of the sandbox, to allow Nation in some way be dispelled of some of the fear that surrounds them and can be brought as another acknowleged nation in the cluster. Will there be some sort of new piece of knowledge unfound or has yet to be revealed to further validate themselves in a way that once done, the storyline will acknowledge it as one of us manage to make that impact as ILF has proven? Or will the sandbox be 'fixed' in such a way that CCP will do so only in a future expansion after Incursion on their own terms?
Those are the things I worry about.
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http://www.ihavereturned.com/latestreports.html
The other side.
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there is great pile of circumstanial evidence surrounding the faction to suggest there is much more than the evil one-dimensional villains everyone who briefly glances at them, wishes them to be.
I support this product and/or service.
And I also think the "ILF approach"--that is determined long-term advocacy--will yield results... of a sort. The fact will remain, however, that being a Sansha loyalist in New Eden is sort of like being a North Korean loyalist on modern Earth. The rest of humanity basically thinks you're brainwashed, crazy, or you've run out of other places where people will let you live because you're a real jerk or somesuch. It is probably the single-most IC reviled RP niche in the game world and will remain so.
But the more people you can attract who have an interest to take that deeper look at the complexity of the Sansha mindset and the RP possibilities it presents and who can help articulate the vision of Nation that you see, the better off the faction will be. And CCP's plans can go to hell. You can always be a splinter faction if they ever do something that makes PF Sansha irrevocably borg-like or anything else flat and overdone.
And whatever happens, you'll never run out of war targets. :yar:
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How is it a 'hammer in the nail' when you are reading primarily from the perspective of the person opposed, who poisoned his guest, and then shot him in the head when there was no hostility involved?
...snip...
How do you say otherwise, when the victim of the story, was the one trying to reason? Negotiate? Display a wide range of emotions throughout the whole 'scene' of the short story, while the main character calls his side 'mindless drones' and 'zombies'? There is alot more going on here that meets the eye, nor will we fully understand what happened in the past that was discussed as it seemed it was an opportunity that was never allowed to prove itself.
Did you read the same story I did? I seem to recall that the visitor basically said "surrender peacefully, or we will send your daughter in to drag you out and shoot you in the head".
Negotiating like that is a bit like the Mafia coming around and saying "nice shop, be a shame if something happened to it" and then complaining when someone reacted badly. I don't see that it paints the Sansha in a particularly good light. They'd been before, and killed before. It was hardly an unprovoked response.
The implications of being able to send in the daughter to do that, speaks to all sorts of associations with things like Pol Pot sending children in to kill their parents, or other unpleasantness. I don't see how you could see that story as a positive one for the Sansha.
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If anybody remembers the conversation in TBL between this particular agent and the male protagonist, they may remember some pretty good explanations for why some folks go along willingly or even seek them out.
There have been times in my life when joining Nation would have seemed like a pretty good alternative.
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I can imagine reasonable people in situations which made them choose to follow those paths. Nothing about the Amarr, Khanid, Angels or Guristas makes them inhuman.
I'm not sure that I can say the same about the Sansha.
People might choose to follow the sansha ...
* Because they are lonely, or isolated, or have low-self-esteem, or are depressed or feel directionless - people deliberately targeted for recruitment by many organisation that have a 'self-improvement' theme, whether religious, scientific, or other (just have a look at the advertising campaigns for the armed forces in many countries)
* Because they believe themselves more intelligent and capable than their peers and resent that not being recognized, admired and rewarded - people deliberately targeted for recruitment by many extremist organisations. (This would be the sort of person who would join Sansha's nation with the assumption that they are not going to be True Slaves - it'll be all those people who never listened who'll be the True Slaves)
* Because they believe that people are not capable of looking after their own best interests and need some level of control and guidance - a view that, in a less extreme version than 'chip everyone! EVERYONE!', is held by a lot of people at least occasionally.
*Because they're conspiracy theorists - if the government says it, it must be a lie, therefore if the government says Sansha bad, then by definition Sansha good. Every university campus I've ever visited has had some of these folks on it.
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How is it a 'hammer in the nail' when you are reading primarily from the perspective of the person opposed, who poisoned his guest, and then shot him in the head when there was no hostility involved?
...snip...
How do you say otherwise, when the victim of the story, was the one trying to reason? Negotiate? Display a wide range of emotions throughout the whole 'scene' of the short story, while the main character calls his side 'mindless drones' and 'zombies'? There is alot more going on here that meets the eye, nor will we fully understand what happened in the past that was discussed as it seemed it was an opportunity that was never allowed to prove itself.
Did you read the same story I did? I seem to recall that the visitor basically said "surrender peacefully, or we will send your daughter in to drag you out and shoot you in the head".
Negotiating like that is a bit like the Mafia coming around and saying "nice shop, be a shame if something happened to it" and then complaining when someone reacted badly. I don't see that it paints the Sansha in a particularly good light. They'd been before, and killed before. It was hardly an unprovoked response.
The implications of being able to send in the daughter to do that, speaks to all sorts of associations with things like Pol Pot sending children in to kill their parents, or other unpleasantness. I don't see how you could see that story as a positive one for the Sansha.
I don't think the mafia analogy is appropriate because the quote unquote victim is trying to make the best of an already 'poor' situation. The Mafia analogy to me conveys a certain degree of malice on behalf of the 'mafia' person, which I don't think is the case.
Now, in context with the 'antagonist' (the colony manager) pointing out the Sansha have done this before, the lines get blurred. Malice is a strange emotion I have trouble attributing to the Sansha, when the greater relentlessness of their culture is taken into consideration.
The 'intimidation' does not come off to me as one fueled by aggressive emotions or thuggish behavior. Rather, it seems to be a more sorrow filled attempt at trying to change a situation for the better in the face of what will inevitably happen if they don't.
My inseparable PR instincts are probably stopping me from seeing your perspective, but here's to hoping I get my point across.
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Uh.
Ok.
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The implications of being able to send in the daughter to do that, speaks to all sorts of associations with things like Pol Pot sending children in to kill their parents, or other unpleasantness. I don't see how you could see that story as a positive one for the Sansha.
In the end, who did the killing?
"Murderer," Terden croaked.
"Yes," Fermar replied calmly. Terden's expression showed that this hadn't been the expected reaction. "After my team has gone, everyone left here will die," Fermar said.
"Including me," Terden said, clearing his throat and taking deep, hissing breaths.
When you have nothing left to lose, you have everything to gain.
Fermar understood the Sansha, from his perspective. He understood Terden. He allowed Terden to be there, to answer what questions he had left as to the success of his plan. Perhaps he even wanted to assuage whatever fears or guilt he had lingering in regards to his plan. But in the end, he had what he wanted.
He wanted to put his daughter out of her misery. What he was doing was necessary, from his perspective. An act of kindness, an act of love, the last duty of a father. A man possessed of a singular goal, a final goal, an end.
Terden? He's a scout. He has an objective; to find a target, and to make sure that there is as little collateral damage as possible. Maybe he got a little sloppy. Maybe he came to the wrong house at the wrong time. Maybe in the back of his mind he knew there was something wrong. Then again, he tried to take the suicide pill, and Fermar stopped him. Why?
Because he wanted to know that his daughter would be there. He wanted to to perform one final act as a father. He wanted to end his daughter's suffering. Is he right? Is Nation all that he said? To Fermar it is the truth, the only truth that matters; his.
I would wager that Nation is far more kind than even it's loyalists believe, but that does not mean there is no toll taken on those it "uplifts".
But, in the end, the latest chronicle isn't about Nation or Terden, it's about a father. Perhaps in looking for the black and white of a situation we miss the true pallet of color the artist is using. After all, if the whole world were painted in shades of gray it would make for a rather dull world. ;)
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I think the vast majority of the Nation dont feel malice per se...namely because it suits Kuvakie's purposes that they dont feel that they're doing things out of malice. They dont feel malice because they cant feel malice.
But threatening to have a man shot by his own daughter if he doesnt do what you want is certainly an objectively malicious act, in every sense of the word.
And in the "I have returned" trailer, Kuvakei sounds utterly malicious and vengeful. I think the members of Nation feel no malice because they're not allowed to feel malice. I think the trailer indicates that Kuvakei feels oodles of malice, and wants his hunk of flesh of the people who burned his dream a century ago.
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I think the vast majority of the Nation dont feel malice per se...namely because it suits Kuvakie's purposes that they dont feel that they're doing things out of malice. They dont feel malice because they cant feel malice.
I think it's a Catch 22, and I think you miss the true horror that is Nation; it's nature as a society of slaves. Let me explain.
But threatening to have a man shot by his own daughter if he doesnt do what you want is certainly an objectively malicious act, in every sense of the word.
Is it? One life for ten, a hundred, or a thousand. One life to prevent bloodshed. One life to prevent a massacre.
And in the "I have returned" trailer, Kuvakei sounds utterly malicious and vengeful. I think the members of Nation feel no malice because they're not allowed to feel malice. I think the trailer indicates that Kuvakei feels oodles of malice, and wants his hunk of flesh of the people who burned his dream a century ago.
If Terden is one of the "lucky" ones because he would accept Nation with open arms, what of the 25 million+ taken without their consent? Your argument relies both on an emotion - malice - and the lack of emotion in said underlings. What if it's not that simple?
What if you were trapped in your own mind, unable to act on emotions so vital to creativity?
It's not emotions that Sansha's Nation locks away; it's the ability to reason through a course of action, to question. Pack mentality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_behavior#Herd_behavior_in_human_societies) taken to the extreme. Instinct harnessed and focused; not necessarily through implants (though in the most extreme cases this is most likely done) but in those more vital to operations, through simple psychological principles. Do they feel malice? No. Are their actions malicious? From your point of view.
Is Kuvakei mad? Yes. He sees humanity as the herd, the pack; and himself as alpha dog. A Messiah for the wayward flock. What he does he does out of love for all humanity, and any sacrifices of self are immaterial to the ultimate goal.
Humanity turned on him, and in turn he has justified any means necessary in exacting revenge. He is an animal trainer who has been nearly mauled by his chosen profession. Despite this, he is attempting to bring his "wayward children" into his loving embrace.
Right now, Capsuleers are his one real obstacle. Now, how to you train an animal? Simple behaviorism.
"I know you better than you know yourselves."
Our little Kuvakei is a behaviorist. ;)
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CITIZEN ASTUR ADDRESSED LOYAL FOLLOWERS FROM HER RESIDENCE IN STAIN, CALLING FOR A RENEWED SENSE OF URGENCY IN COUNTERING THE CAPSULEER THREAT AHEAD OF THIS WEEK'S OPERATIONS
O GUISE...SANSHA CITIZENS LIVE IN HOUSES?! WHY AM I TALKING IN CAPS?
Maybe Seriphyn should pay a visit eeehh *waggles eyebrows*
I think the North Korea angle on Sansha, lol.
WE MUST FIGHT THIS WAR FOR YEARS TO COME. ONLY THROUGH AN ENDLESS WAR WILL THE LAST CAPSULEER COME TO UNDERSTAND THE TRUTH.
Look at the Incursion trailer...the guys under attack aren't the empires, but the capsuleers...
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So, hey.
What's everyone think about the upcoming Sansha shenanigans in Deltole?
Deltole is significant (http://www.eve-wiki.net/index.php?title=Deception).
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People might choose to follow the sansha ...
Yes, I see your point. A failure of imagination and memory on my part.
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What frustrates myself as roleplaying a loyalist to Nation is not only the lack of support offered by the expansion, but the fact there is great pile of circumstanial evidence surrounding the faction to suggest there is much more than the evil one-dimensional villains everyone who briefly glances at them, wishes them to be. I begin to wonder what can I do as a player, in order to do in my part of the sandbox, to allow Nation in some way be dispelled of some of the fear that surrounds them and can be brought as another acknowleged nation in the cluster.
I'm sure there were Gestapo agents who loved their families and gave to charity, but I don't think that's enough to dispell the (deserved) reputation that the Gestapo had.
CCP say the Sansha have people so afraid of them that entire colonies will suicide, or that they'll evacuate and blow up their colony, when they think Sansha are about to raid them. Given what CCP have told us about Sansha as information the public have (ignoring for the moment the information they give us which isn't really IC available, or available to the public), I don't think that fear is unreasonable or misplaced.
So I think it's unlikely that CCP will change the (NPC) levels of fear and loathing of Sansha any time soon, and I'm not sure it would be "realistic" or perhaps, true to the setting, if they did.
I'm Ok with that.
And to be honest, the Sansha supporters arguing "If you stopped shooting at us when we're kidnapping your people accepting new volunteers, then nobody would have to die, so it's all your fault" aren't really helping their cause.
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I'm more or less with Ulph here. While there might be circumstantial evidence that there is more to the Nation than simple borg-like Evil, there is direct and explicit evidence in PF that the Sansha are doing stuff to people against their will that makes said people so afraid they rather die and kill their children than risk it. If you take just TBL descriptions of the Nation as basis of what is true, it does not indeed seem the fears are misplaced entirely.
This does not mean all Sansha followers are evil people, of course. People can do hideous stuff out of good motives. But the good intentions do not make that stuff less hideous. I think it would be more useful for Sansha supporter players to invent justifications that these characters use to explain themselves the evil they do than it is to try and think of ways to convince NPCs or other PCs that Sansha are actually fairly fluffy. Because, frankly, I see very little evidence that CCP intends them to be any sort of good guys, even when they probably are more complex than e.g. the intro video alone suggests.
(Of course, they do not seem to intend anyone to be good guys, really. Just various sorts of bad stuff done for humanly understandable motivations. Which is part of why I like EVE. But Sansha seem to be there towards the darker shades of grey the way they are pictured.)
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Are the Sansha feared more intensely than Blood Raiders, or just more widely (across more of the cluster)?
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Are the Sansha feared more intensely than Blood Raiders, or just more widely (across more of the cluster)?
Interesting question. I don't know about the PF.
Personally, I have OOC internal squick factors for screwing with personalities. Putting a chip (or indeed certain drugs or parasites) in someone's head to make them behave differently and change the person they are freaks me out in a way that just threatening to kill someone does not. For a pod pilot, it seems to me that someone altering your personality to do what they want is one of the ways for you to be destroyed, as apart from just killed.
IC I dislike the Bloodraiders, and shoot them when I can get away with it. OOC I'm surprised that people talk to them in polite company. But fundamentally they're not trying to destroy me, just kill me.
So, yes, I fear the Sansha more.
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Are the Sansha feared more intensely than Blood Raiders, or just more widely (across more of the cluster)?
I'd say more.
The Blooders will kill you (eventually). The Sansha take away your free will and make you do their bidding.
And the EoM are just crazy and (as depicted in missions) incompetent. I mean, seriously, hybrids on Amarrian hulls?
IC all three groups are my favourite sort of entity to blow up. You really get a feeling you are doing the cluster a favour by doing so.
Like I said. I'm happy that people are choosing to play subtle evil, even if the characters don't realise that they are serving evil.
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Are the Sansha feared more intensely than Blood Raiders, or just more widely (across more of the cluster)?
I'd say the raiders are mostly an Amarr problem. Only the Amarr empire seems to clash with them frequently. Sansha, all four empires have taken a crack at - I'd say all four dread him more.
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People might choose to follow the sansha ...
Excellent reasons!
After all, if the whole world were painted in shades of gray it would make for a rather dull world. ;)
What are you trying to say about my EVE?!?
So, yes, I fear the Sansha more.
'sokay, the Master will vanquish your fear. ;)
(and commute your soul to dust (514))
I'm more or less with Ulph here. While there might be circumstantial evidence that there is more to the Nation than simple borg-like Evil, there is direct and explicit evidence in PF that the Sansha are doing stuff to people against their will that makes said people so afraid they rather die and kill their children than risk it. If you take just TBL descriptions of the Nation as basis of what is true, it does not indeed seem the fears are misplaced entirely.
Well, they'd be rather less compelling as bad guys if the threat of their imminent arrival made people bust out laughing...
This does not mean all Sansha followers are evil people, of course. People can do hideous stuff out of good motives. But the good intentions do not make that stuff less hideous. I think it would be more useful for Sansha supporter players to invent justifications that these characters use to explain themselves the evil they do than it is to try and think of ways to convince NPCs or other PCs that Sansha are actually fairly fluffy.
That is probably the heart of the faction's potential as a dynamic and interesting subject. We all get that what the Sansha do and the way their society functions is anathema to the values that built and support our real lives. Seri's up there :lolling: about my DPRK analogy, but I don't think it's that far off. The exploration of what makes people serve Nation willingly, happily, and with a self-assurance of their own beneficence by doing so is what pulls me toward the faction.
they probably are more complex than e.g. the intro video alone suggests.
Of course they are. The FW storyline was (is?) much more complex than the Empyrean Age trailer might suggest.
--break--
Ultimately, I think Nation provides the RPer/gamer/writer an opportunity to see human beings doing things that strike virtually all of us as fundamentally inhuman or unnatural (moreso even than slavery or hematophagy) and confront the questions:
Why would you do this?
How could you do this?
Because people (in the real world) inevitably do the sociopathic sorts of things that elicit those questions is perhaps the root of the discomfort some feel with play acting the role of a Nation loyalist. I'm not saying Sansha loyalist characters are all sociopaths, but they have internalized a morality and social compass that is fundamentally different from that which prevails in the rest of New Eden and in the real world. I think they are likely the most challenging characters to RP, but potentially the most rewarding to the player and to the setting because they put a living, interactive face on very chilling thoughts and actions, first among which are the idea that the traditional concepts of the human body and mind are not in any way sacred.
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Ultimately, I think Nation provides the RPer/gamer/writer an opportunity to see human beings doing things that strike virtually all of us as fundamentally inhuman or unnatural (moreso even than slavery or hematophagy) and confront the questions:
Why would you do this?
How could you do this?
Sure. That's fine. But then I'm a little surprised at the occasional Sansha supporter going OOC "But why does everyone hate us?" and I'm less likely to socialise in places where Sansha supporters are common. That does seem to be a minority position, but hey, such is life.
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After all, if the whole world were painted in shades of gray it would make for a rather dull world. ;)
What are you trying to say about my EVE?!?
That I prefer to think of the individuals, and not the faction; that I think about the human painting, the precious tableau of human experience, and not the broad strokes of Empires and Factions.
What would you do if death were no longer an obstacle?
That's why Jita 4-4 is my favorite chronicle; it's about a person, and how they perceive the world, and how that world perceives them. Which could be a metaphor for EVE itself. We all see EVE from our particular perspectives, and in the case of Sansha's Nation, it's interesting how we project on them what we want.
How can a faction portrayed in such a straightforward manner be interpreted in so many ways? How can every interpretation be seen as truth to those that interpret it as such? Wonderfully deep and immersive stuff in my opinion. It gives a pretty good insight into the human psyche, both individually and in respect to group interaction.
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Okay, I have a quick question.
What's up with the god-moding? "HAY GIES WE WERE TOTALLY SUCCESSFUL EVEN THOUGH WE WERE ALL CLOAKED PEEING OURSELVES, WE PLAYED GI JOE PLANETSIDE AND BEAT THE SANSHAS I PROMISE!!11!one!"
Can I post a thread saying Stimulus forces preempted those of FDU and SF and stole all the good-looking female virgins off the planet for my brothel? What's to stop me from doing so? Who's going to prove me wrong and how?
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Agreed with bacch tbh. :roll:
This is why things in space matter. If anything the Pandemic Legion thread makes 'more' sense.
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there weren't any dropships in space either :s
The whole event thing, other than the shooting at the npcs/occasional carrier has been at times very
Sansha > Dropships!
Player > Countermeasures!
Sansha > Indeed
Player > :monocle:
Passer by > lolrp
which is :s
You can post whatever you like, and there is nothing to stop you, no-one to prove you wrong, because there is nothing physical to work with. It is all agreement that "these things happened". If you don't agree, then v0v
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I don't believe anybody has tried to suggest that this stuff should replace in-space shooting. But it certainly does supplement it, just as Soter's run for VP and associated Fed Constitutional amendments does.
This holds even more true when the players just note what they tried and CCP event staff determine the results, as when somebody tried the grav ECM on the wormholes. Players make an attempt and the game masters (in the traditional RP sense, not in the specific job title at CCP sense) determine the results.
So what's the problem again?
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I don't see how it can be "god-modding" when an in-game tool and investment of resources is used to address a plotline that is acknowledged by the events crew as influential to the progress of events.
[...]
[ 18:11:26 ] Slave Endoma01 > Dropships experiencing resistance.
[ 18:11:34 ] Slave Umokka01 > Evolving tactics.
[ 18:13:03 ] Slave Umokka01 > Dropship squadrons 23, 28, 29 reporting resistance.
[ 18:14:07 ] Slave Endoma01 > Fortified emplacements on the planet's surface engaging dropships. Evolving tactics.
[ 18:15:01 ] Slave Umokka01 > Planetary defences in excess of estimates. Evolving tactics.
[...]
[ 18:29:31 ] Slave Umokka01 > Planetary populations within dropzones are evacuating via capsuleer infrastructure.
[...]
[ 18:51:31 ] Slave Umokka01 > Dropship squadrons 1 through 50 returning from surface. 16% capacity.
[...]
[ 19:01:50 ] Slave Umokka01 > Remaining dropship squadrons rallying at portal alpha. 19% capacity. 23,000 souls uplifted for Nation.
[...]
As roleplayers we need to use all our tools available to make a point when we choose. If anyone does want to be profoundly anti-RP about it, we could point out that the planetary spaceport infrastructure is MORE REAL than the Sansha dropships (which are purely RP constructs) whereas the PI infrastructure is "real" (ie paid for with isk and deployed through in-game means) But I note that element of situation is not questioned by the posters above.
Still, worth remember that not every element of the setting is about capsuleers. And for an organization like Star Fraction that is very interested in the fate of baseline humanity we need tools to interact with non-capsuleer impacting plotlines to properly honour our RP ideals and principles. PI gives a way to do this at the moment with the credibility of in-game investment. I can't see how thats a bad thing.
Anybody takes issue with it. Well, you know where the wardec button is.
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I see no problem with the interaction performed so far. Granted, I only have third party knowledge on the matter so I can't say anything conclusive. Game mechanics only go so far and sometimes one quite simply has to go that little extra mile through common sense alone. If there's planetary installations I see no problem with a corp or alliance doing some RP through those 'opportunity doorways', since it's hardly an inconceivable chain of events.
I am just hungering for the planetary bombardment option for the capsuleers who're willing to go far enough to effectively employ the Scorched Earth tactic against the Sansha. Deprive them of their goal entirely through complete and utter destruction of their prey.
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Likewise, for Oruse II, subsequent to Doctor Illuminatus and myself announcing our PI structures on the ground....
[22:12:34] Citizen Astur Dropship squadrons 1 through 200 reporting resistance. Deploying additional reinforcements from portals alpha and beta.
[22:18:40] Citizen Astur Dropship squadrons 1 through 200 returning from surface. 74% capacity.
[22:28:48] Citizen Astur Dropship squadrons 1 through 200 returning from surface. 84% capacity.
[22:39:10] Citizen Astur Dropship squadrons 1 through 200 returning from surface. 98% capacity. Portals secure.
So...? As Jade was said with Deltole, it was acknowledged by the CCP actors.
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Um.
Not the people in your cargohold. Which was the point.
The local communications are also extremely ambiguous, probably due to the limited level of capsuleer involvement in it. Deltole was, on the other hand, explicit because more people actually participated.
Of course, someone self-destructed a freighter inside a wormhole with no Sansha response whatsoever.
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Am not decisively saying IC nor OOC that that was successful, for obvious reasons.
However, THIS, was acknowledged. These live events aren't about who's the baddest FC. It's a roleplay event. Roleplay is make believe.
If you're going to discredit the PI angle, then you can go about and invalidate the dropships too.
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"Prior to the attack, Eleutherian Guard pilot Seriphyn Inhonores and Anslo of First Flying Wing Inc claim to have attempted an evacuation of Oruse II, but the Archon carrier, The Ifrit, was destroyed by Rote Kapelle forces.
. . .
The True Citizen leading the assault, Citizen Astur, claimed to have successfully "uplifted" a significant portion of the planet's population some time before a heavy Pandemic Legion fleet entered the system and engaged and destroyed the majority of the Sansha forces, including Astur's own Wyvern super-carrier, though an alleged third-party report published by Pandemic Legion pilot Elize Randolph today claims that the population were saved. There has so far been no statement by planetary authorities to verify the claims of either side."
So it looks like all that can be proved was spaceships shooting things. Like we've been saying all along.
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Am not decisively saying IC nor OOC that that [the carrier evacuation] was successful, for obvious reasons.
You are arguing against a point I have already conceded, and ignoring the other element of PI defence :P
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There is no explicit mention of PI defenses on Oruse. And need I remind you that my character had to bring up the idea to land military forces on the planet in the intel channel, which was apparently an afterthought of the 'evacuation' plan?
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Soter, seriously, what's the objection?
If you object to the fact that people come up with different ways of interacting with each other and the universe, then I fail to understand how this differs from your own RP. I don't think anyone should have a problem with your RP, by the way, and I recall happily interacting with you and Jonny during your characters' run for office. ("Why the hell not?")
Otherwise, it looks more and more like you object to things based on your feelings toward the players in question and whether they willingly accept your own pronouncements, IC and OOC. This presents significant obstacles on a number of levels that shouldn't need spelling out.
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[ 2010.11.30 22:06:32 ] Seriphyn Inhonores > Ah, Illuminatus. You possess planetside evac centers too, do you not?
[ 2010.11.30 22:06:38 ] Seriphyn Inhonores > Let us have our people coordinate.
[ 2010.11.30 22:06:39 ] Doctor Illuminatus > Acknowledged, Pilot Inhonores. Fraction commande network exchanging encrypted handshake protocols with your network now.
[ 2010.11.30 22:07:05 ] Citizen Astur > Dropship squadrons reinforcing.
[ 2010.11.30 22:07:09 ] Seriphyn Inhonores > Recieved and acknowledged. Six FDU spaceports on the ground.
[ 2010.11.30 22:10:37 ] Doctor Illuminatus > Black Rose Commando SAM crews report contact with hostile dropships.
[ 2010.11.30 22:11:02 ] Seriphyn Inhonores > FDU platoons report nothing as so far, will keep updated.
[ 2010.11.30 22:11:24 ] Doctor Illuminatus > Reporting heavy anti-missile jamming. Infowar troops responding with adapted LADAR. Effective range may be reduced.
[ 2010.11.30 22:12:09 ] Seriphyn Inhonores > Copy, intel relayed to FDU mobile teams.
[ 2010.11.30 22:12:34 ] Citizen Astur > Dropship squadrons 1 through 200 reporting resistance. Deploying additional reinforcements from portals alpha and beta.
[ 2010.11.30 22:12:46 ] Seriphyn Inhonores > That's it, FDU ground forces engaged.
I'm going to agree with Casiella dude. Come on, it's just like...make believe. You're arguing against make believe.
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This is all out of character debate, as far as I can tell, based on out of character knowledge.
In-character most of this issue is already resolved. The flow of information was too chaotic to tell if anything directly related to any activity in Oruse had a significant impact. It is known that Anslo nor Seriphyn are in possession of five hundred thousand individuals, as was claimed.
Continuing the out of character debate, the primary issue that appears here is whether it is possible to invade planets as capsuleers, outside of facwar mechanics or 0.0 sovereignty operations.
The implication of landing troops on a planet requires official recognition from the planetary government and the sovreign power within the system. Anslo, in-character, said he never talked with the Planetary governor. Therefor, it would appear he was taking unilateral action.
Whether or not Seriphyn received official recognition from the sovreign power of the system to land ground forces is the second issue. His affiliation with the FDU notwithstanding, Oruse is a uncontested system in Solitude lowsec. Is it possible for capsuleers of high Federation standing to arbitrarily garrison troops wherever they like? Intaki, perhaps?
Regarding local chat communications, the hypothesis I would like to suggest is that local ground forces and Federation marines had been alerted of the impending attack via communications with Haeldone Dorgiers, and on the IGS, of the planned Oruse invasion. These forces were better prepared to resist for a time the onslaught, although they were finally overcome.
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These live events aren't about who's the baddest FC. It's a roleplay event. Roleplay is make believe.
Speak for yourself. For me RP is not about make-believing yourself into a successful soldier. It is about being a bad-ass FC and RPing that. Or else, trying to be a bad-ass FC, failing that, and RPing the failure.
Obviously, these live events are about your kind of RP, not about my kind of. Which is why I do not do them much if I can avoid (pls keep them out of the Republic kthxbai). For example: I was really really excited when I heard about how people had discovered that graviton ECM works on the wormholes, because I thought they had actually taken a jammer, pointed it at a wormhole while dodging Sansha ships, and seen that wormhole collapse. Then I heard that actually it was just "make believe" and that to have your jammers work, you actually had to announce on local that you are using them, which totally killed the interest to me.
YMMV, obviously, and I don't object to other people enjoying that sort of stuff. But please do not try and pose "RP" as something diametrically opposed to actually being good at the game.
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Well of course it's easy to claim RP is all about being a badass FC if you ARE a badass FC :P
I'm not interested in working up a big OOC following with lots of leverage in game mechanics or whatever so I can put weight behind my RP...if people ever read my fiction (for example) it's about Seriphyn the character and the fictional universe, not the Federation and certainly not the video game.
And again, I never claimed IC or OOC how many we 'evacced' from Oruse II. I'm happy to go with the player article about an 'attempt'. On specific numbers, there's others you can take it up with.
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Obviously, you are not into the sort of RP that I am into, Seri. That was my point, actually. :D
You are mistaken that it is not about "working up a big OOC following", though. It is about preferring to RP in a world that I interact with, rather than make-believe in. I am not trying to say my way is better than yours; I am simply asking that you do not make statements like "this is about RP, not about being good at pvp" as if those are opposite things for every RPer. Because they aren't. Just for some of us.
BTW, to the actual matter at hand: since the dropships are imaginary, I do not consider inventing make-believe planetary forces to counter them "godmodding", especially when CCP seems to have played along. You are right that these events seem to basically be about make-believe as much as or more than they are about actually knowing your shit in space. I do not object to make-believing in a make-believe event. I simply object to claiming that RP = pure make-believe, and actually being good at pvp is something completely separate.
Incidentally, I suck at FCing.
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O-er, yeah, that second paragraph of my previous post look directed at you but I more meant it in the general sense :oops:
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Interacting with CCP via game mechanics seems to me not much different from interacting with CCP via "make believe" / traditional RP means. In both cases, the character tries something and CCP arbitrates the result, particularly the actions and consequences for NPCs.
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Interacting with CCP via game mechanics seems to me not much different from interacting with CCP via "make believe" / traditional RP means. In both cases, the character tries something and CCP arbitrates the result, particularly the actions and consequences for NPCs.
Yea, I know many people feel this way. For myself, I'd prefer what happens in the space to happen via game mechanics, and make-believe only supplement for things that are not about space. I don't really even know why exactly, but it does feel different to me to say on local "I jam the wormhole!" and to actually activate a module on something that then explodes.
Again, YMMV, and I am fine with that. I am glad people enjoy the Sansha events - even if I don't, they provide background and events in the world I can react to, regardless of whether I was there. I know I am repeating myself, but I really really really do not mean to object to the events as such, only to the implication that RP = make-believe, as opposed to based on game mechanics.
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it does feel different to me to say on local "I jam the wormhole!" and to actually activate a module on something that then explodes.
when people were jamming the wormholes, at least some of them were actually activating modules on the wormhole object in space.
however, it does nothing, unless they announce it, the actor sees their announcement, recognises it, and acts on it.
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it does feel different to me to say on local "I jam the wormhole!" and to actually activate a module on something that then explodes.
when people were jamming the wormholes, at least some of them were actually activating modules on the wormhole object in space.
however, it does nothing, unless they announce it, the actor sees their announcement, recognises it, and acts on it.
Yea. My problem is actually not so much not being able to activate the module, but that it does nothing unless I pose about it on local too.
And to disclaim again: that's just my problem. I do not mind other people enjoying this stuff.
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Yea. My problem is actually not so much not being able to activate the module, but that it does nothing unless I pose about it on local too.
A: So I'm here, right?
B: Yea, and you're still hidden. Want to do a sneak attack on the Thayan mage?
A: No, I've got this red robe on. I want to pretend to be a new acolyte. I clear my throat and say, 'Excuse me, i'm looking for the arcane accessories room.'
B: Oh. Umm... The mage is startled and turns on you, glaring, but doesn't attack... yet.
Appreciate your tolerance of local-poseurs, Elsebeth. I remain curious, however. Does this perhaps come down to a disconnect between former/current tabletop RPG players and primarily electronic gamers?
For the record, I flew a Blackbird into some of those early incursions and did actually activate gravi ECM on the holes. Op Bad Moon wasn't (isn't?) just about posing in local, but the game doesn't have the mechanics to depict the complex sci-fi battlefield that the backstory suggests. So you wing it. DM says, "Success/Fail" or, lacking a DM, player consensus tells you "Success/Fail". Do you just prefer the DM ruling to be in the form of the cut-and-dry rules and limits of the client rather than subject to any human interpretation? Simply exploring your thoughts here. Think we've already been over where I stand on the topic overall...
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Appreciate your tolerance of local-poseurs, Elsebeth. I remain curious, however. Does this perhaps come down to a disconnect between former/current tabletop RPG players and primarily electronic gamers?
Nope.
I play tabletop RPGs extensively, for... ugh, I'm old... 25 years now (so did before internet). Currently I play a tabletop session maybe once or twice a month, which is way down in frequency from my youth. I've done a lot of diceless/ruleless play too and while I do not prefer that, with a good GM it does not really make much difference to me. And I expect the GM to make exception to rules when it makes sense to do so, in fact.
What is sort of similar in my tabletop and EVE experiences is that in tabletops too, games/campaigns I enjoy most tend to be "character-heavy", based on character development and interaction and exploring the world rather than in the GM trying to "tell a story". (Immersion versus narration, to any oldtimer Usenet users.)
I suppose that in EVE, I feel that "the way" I interact with the space-parts of the game is defined as the game client, and "the way" CCP is supposed to wing it is to change the game client. Thinking about it, I can identify twothree things at least that play a part in why the "posing on local about it" thing does not work for me:
1) When I usually speak on local, it is Else who speaks, and she has a reason to speak. In a normal fleet, she'd not announce ECM on local -- hell no, that would be breaking opsec and get her yelled at by the FC, more likely than anything else. If I have to do it in an event, it feels unnatural, it reminds me that this is an event, which breaks the immersion, making it feel like make-believe, not "real". I want the game to feel real even when it isn't, and so I would prefer events to feel the same as regular gameplay, only possibly more so.
2) I have the feeling that the GMs here are "going by the flow". Rather than having decided beforehand that certain types of jammers will work, or this or that is how the players can interact with the event, they throw an event out, see what the players will do, and pick and choose from those ideas those that they make work. While I am aware all GMs everywhere do a bit of it, when taken to the extreme, this sort of "shared storytelling" RP is not my favorite mode anywhere. It makes me feel that I am not "interacting with a world", but rather "inventing a story on the spot", which again tends to break the immersion. One of the major appeals of EVE to me is the "whatever happens in the game [client], happens in the game [world]", and these events seem to break that. If CCP wants to change the rules, I'd rather they coded the change in, than changed it on the fly.
3) I do not like the player consensus arguing about and deciding what is true after the event. Outnumbered tens to one, the GMs have no way to pay equal attention to everyone, and so the most vocal ones (both during the event and after) get heard. I do not like it that players who have the time to discuss it in EVE fiction etc are the ones who get most say in what happened. I want equal opportunity to whomever simply can be present.
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Next event in advance, I need to deploy some command centers to help round up the populace for evacuation :D
Also deploy some mechs to kill the other command centers.
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I think sometimes people forget:
http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=1389.0
GalNet = Intergalactic Summit. Those making their in-character points with grace and conviction, and backing them up with in-game action, will win the adulation of the masses and are likely to be included in the storyline.
Post prior to first attack:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1423503
Note: Never was there mention, prior to the event, of success or failure; simply that the emplacements had been dropped, and the preparations made.
Account of the attack:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1423552&page=1
After-action report confirming events:
http://www.ihavereturned.com/latestreports.html
Again, posting on IGS + backing it up in space = inclusion in story, but does not guarantee success. Claiming success beforehand is a bit of a stretch, but given this circumstance, I don't see that as having happened.
Now, claiming to be directing planetary defenses, hacking Sansha capsuleers, and the like... that's touchy. Again, those who have been "successful" with that have been vocal on the forums. IGS + In-space actions = inclusion in storyline.
When I was playing Nikilaiki Ruutarhara, you'd be surprised the interesting and fascinating things I discovered about Sansha's Nation. Posting in the forums, alongside going to attacks and "doing my thing", resulted in inclusion in some pretty interesting RP and revelations that might just be lost to time. ;)
Stuff like:
-Cloned Sansha's Nation True Slaves.
-Fed Navy/FDU surveillance in Intaki. ;)
-Haeldone Dorgiers "Going Rogue" to face the Nation threat (and helping him test whether or not he could actually fight back against Sansha Loyalists).
-The "Big Secret" at the Tama wormhole, and why it stayed open. :D
Nikilaiki never fired a shot either. Well, except at Haeldone Dorgiers, but he asked me to do it. I swear!
In other words, find a way to interact and run with it. Try not to step on other people's toes. Posting in local about "taking control of planetary defenses" is kind of a touchy subject; I wouldn't personally do it, but I also wouldn't call someone on it IC (heck, you could always justify it as PsyOps; trying to convince Sansha that Capsuleers have more power than they do).
It's not wrong, but it's kind of like saying to a DM during an attack by a dragon on a town, "Okay, now I go to the town guard and lead them in defending the city". You are perfectly within your rights to say so; the other players are within their rights to roll eyes, possibly make verbal jabs, and for the DM to say "Uh, no. They're off doing X while you are looking for them. You just wasted a turn, and 20 peasants just died as you were looking for the City Guard."
The defense of "But I planned this out all nice, see? I have charts, maps, strategically placed siege gear..." doesn't work. Why? Because you didn't show it to the DM beforehand. Also, if your character doesn't have the actual skills and/or ability to set up said defenses it kind of makes it impossible to pull off.
On the other hand, you character has the skills, means, and opportunity to do X, and you inform the DM beforehand, you're more likely to have your plan put into action. When the dragon comes, your siege weapons go off without a hitch, peasants are safely within the reinforced shelters you helped design, and the guards are all in magical gear that protects them from the dragon's breath.
It still doesn't keep them safe if marauding orcs attack you on your way to assist; you know, because your plan hinges on you being able to hit that "sweet spot" you discovered on that ancient scroll that told you exactly where to hit the dragon between scales marked with an "X" and a "Y". The city guard stands up for a while, but eventually they get decimated anyway because the Dragon just won't die, and it just keeps hacking and slashing it's way through your well laid plans...
...yes, I'm aware that I've played far, far too much Dungeons and Dragons in my time. :|
The town is lost, but you did interact. ;) Which is more rewarding?
The long and the short of it: You can do what you want, but you are most likely to succeed when you do things that a Capsuleer can do. Placing planetary infrastructure for the purpose of planetary defense and announcing on IGS that you are doing so, in order for the Event Team to actually see it, is the way to go. With 200+ people in local at any given time, IGS is the best place to give the Event Team a heads-up on the situation so they are on the lookout for you in-game.
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((Why didn't I know that Amann == Nikiruu?!))
Excellent points there. Both arenas for RP (space and the "everything else") have a place in our environment, and finding ways to work with them will lead to a much richer interaction than either one on its own.
Some of the most enjoyable RP I had came from trying to decrypt IGS messages when the Sansha event arc began earlier this year.
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I don't see how it can be "god-modding" when an in-game tool and investment of resources is used to address a plotline that is acknowledged by the events crew as influential to the progress of events.
[...]
[ 18:11:26 ] Slave Endoma01 > Dropships experiencing resistance.
[ 18:11:34 ] Slave Umokka01 > Evolving tactics.
[ 18:13:03 ] Slave Umokka01 > Dropship squadrons 23, 28, 29 reporting resistance.
[ 18:14:07 ] Slave Endoma01 > Fortified emplacements on the planet's surface engaging dropships. Evolving tactics.
[ 18:15:01 ] Slave Umokka01 > Planetary defences in excess of estimates. Evolving tactics.
[...]
[ 18:29:31 ] Slave Umokka01 > Planetary populations within dropzones are evacuating via capsuleer infrastructure.
[...]
[ 18:51:31 ] Slave Umokka01 > Dropship squadrons 1 through 50 returning from surface. 16% capacity.
[...]
[ 19:01:50 ] Slave Umokka01 > Remaining dropship squadrons rallying at portal alpha. 19% capacity. 23,000 souls uplifted for Nation.
[...]
As roleplayers we need to use all our tools available to make a point when we choose. If anyone does want to be profoundly anti-RP about it, we could point out that the planetary spaceport infrastructure is MORE REAL than the Sansha dropships (which are purely RP constructs) whereas the PI infrastructure is "real" (ie paid for with isk and deployed through in-game means) But I note that element of situation is not questioned by the posters above.
Still, worth remember that not every element of the setting is about capsuleers. And for an organization like Star Fraction that is very interested in the fate of baseline humanity we need tools to interact with non-capsuleer impacting plotlines to properly honour our RP ideals and principles. PI gives a way to do this at the moment with the credibility of in-game investment. I can't see how thats a bad thing.
Anybody takes issue with it. Well, you know where the wardec button is.
Wow. Jade, really? You're the one who for all these years beat the "get in space or STFU" drum. In fact, when I get a second to properly reply, I'm going to go back through OOC and see how many posts to that effect of yours I can drum up. Of all people that I expected to question the /sip RP claiming to do something, I figured you'd be first on the list. Didn't we wardec Gorion for just that sort of nonsense back in Mitograd?
The reason I think it's ridiculous RP is that there's fuck-all anyone can do about it. Like I said, what's to stop me from claiming my personal forces raided the planet and kidnapped every woman they could find for my brothel?
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You could easily RP that you hired mercs to attempt that. The difference is doing so in a way that explicitly works with the GM (CCP) and lets it determine the result.
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Worth noting, I'd be bothered less if these pilots actually had ships at the planet supposedly ferrying people back and forth. Instead these pilots were cloaked somewhere in the system RPing in local and magically teleporting civilians around apparently.
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Yea, I know many people feel this way. For myself, I'd prefer what happens in the space to happen via game mechanics, and make-believe only supplement for things that are not about space. I don't really even know why exactly, but it does feel different to me to say on local "I jam the wormhole!" and to actually activate a module on something that then explodes.
Scary to say it, but I agree with you. Emoting in local that you're activating ECM on the WH when you're actually cloaked 30 AU from the planet in question=make believe. Warping your ship into the shitstorm of Sansha and fighting to do so=action backed by RP motives.
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Like I said...
Me and Doctor Illuminata dropped some spaceports on the planet and spouted in local about coordinating a defence (of course we gradually lost)...this was the result...said within seconds of announcing it...
[22:12:34] Citizen Astur Dropship squadrons 1 through 200 reporting resistance. Deploying additional reinforcements from portals alpha and beta.
So we RP'd it out...gradually getting worn down of course...
[22:18:40] Citizen Astur Dropship squadrons 1 through 200 returning from surface. 74% capacity.
[22:28:48] Citizen Astur Dropship squadrons 1 through 200 returning from surface. 84% capacity.
[22:39:10] Citizen Astur Dropship squadrons 1 through 200 returning from surface. 98% capacity. Portals secure.
No way in hell I was going to be able to engage the ebil nullsecers by myself, but I got as much enjoyment out of it as I can :D
It's not always about being an awesome PvPer all the time, at least not to everyone. It's just a make believe video game.
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[mod]Please remember that 'ur doin' it wrong' isn't allowed within the guidelines. Other people are free to RP as they wish, however silly it may seem :yar:. Do feel free to make clear both how you would do things (instead of focusing on how others shouldn't) and make note of things that other people did that you thought were awesome.I may go through the rest of the thread in more detail later.[/mod]
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Actually...
I wanted to participate in the Oruse II event somehow. Given that Seriphyn had prior knowledge of the attack, no excuse for him not to. It's not far from Vevelonel either.
However, no one from the FDU would be interested, so I had to be solo. No way was I gonna be engaging the bigass fleets.
So decided to be more creative a la Doctor Illuminatus and try something different, so that I could participate and enjoy myself without having to feel completely helpless.
Enjoyment folks, it's your 15 bucks a month after all :yar:
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The sansha dropships are/were central to the entire live events. They do not have an ingame presence.
Players did a number of things in response.
Some were deploying probes, and handwaved them going through the wormhole (wormhole was not a wormhole as such, but simply a static object).
Some put ships between the wormhole and the planet, and ran smartbombs (which would catch dropships as they passed by).
Some deployed minefields around the wormhole to prevent use by dropships (I did this, using the old ingame mines, which I happened to have a bpc of. Others did as well afaik.).
Some used ECM on the wormhole to destabilise it. (some sciencey thing related to how gravimetric ECM jammers are supposed to work)
Some deployed structures on planet, some with, some without troops and aircraft to directly combat Sansha dropships+troops. (planetary interaction things, plus some conjecture)
Some used psych tactics on the sansha commander to confuse/disorientate them. (talking with Heavenbound in particular)
All of those could have worked. Only some did. Why?
as far as I see, The answer is because the actor/gm recognised that something was being done, they understood what the players were trying to convey, they chose whether or not it worked, then they reacted or did not react.
So, what is the problem?
Consistency, Things worked for some players, but not for others. Why? Did the actor miss someone "posing" in local? Did the person forget to "pose"?
When I was in a position to get my interceptor to a site and throw out the mines, first time I did it, wormholes shut, and re-opened. I was mentioning it in local. Another time, I didn't mention it in local, nothing happened. Third time, i mentioned things in local, one wormhole shut, reopened elsewhere.
Communication, If English is not your first language, how do you communicate that you are bombarding a point-defect in space-time with graviton waves from a spatial destabiliser projector, in such a fashion as to collapse the waveform of the point defect? And do that in a sufficiently timely way that the event isn't over before you finish?
Consent, the objects have to agree to be affected. Here the dread spectre of favouritism appears. Example, if planetary facilities have an effect, then:
1. Place lots of facilities on Gallente Prime. Place more in Villore, where the Senate is.
2. Have lots of ingame units of Marines, Militants, whathaveyou. Take them to Gallente Prime and Villore.
3. have bookmarks where you're at the planet surface. Fly industrials full of the marines to those points.
4. "Invade". The Gallente just lost FW. The State took Gallente Prime and the seat of federal government.
Except they didn't. Why not? Because the GM says no. Why? Why is that RP, which is entirely based on ingame achieveable actions, not valid?
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One of the best things about being a GM (in other games, obviously) is that you get to decide and not necessarily justify everything to the players. But of course you have reasons: maybe it doesn't serve the overarching story, or maybe you perceive some unfairness to other players, or maybe it violates the themes of the adventure, or maybe the player pissed you off by taking the last beer.
For your specific example, one would think that transferring a few thousand marines or militants would pale in comparison to the garrisons that likely protect the Senate and such. And, Sansha NPC god-moding aside ;) space-ground assaults likely have all sorts of tactical issues: SAMs, tracking, etc. Players can't simply hand-wave away the existing defenses for all the reasons mentioned above.
I would have no problem with a character attempting just that, as long as the player recognized the IC futility of the gesture.
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Wow. Jade, really? You're the one who for all these years beat the "get in space or STFU" drum. In fact, when I get a second to properly reply, I'm going to go back through OOC and see how many posts to that effect of yours I can drum up. Of all people that I expected to question the /sip RP claiming to do something, I figured you'd be first on the list. Didn't we wardec Gorion for just that sort of nonsense back in Mitograd?
We certainly did. Would be nice to think there are some corporations/alliances still around that might follow our example then and wardec people for doing things we disagree with in-character.
Thats probably the slipping-up point here. Because I'm not sure what Rote's position on this Sansha invasion is really. You've publicly said you are just there shoot people for lols - fair enough, but its not really anything you can express in terms of easily inviting 3rd party roleplaying about. I mean I read the thread devoted to you and wondered if this was Rote re-engaging with the storyline again in some form, but after reading your guys responses there I came away thinking "meh" so opportunist pirates, thats a bit ordinary.
IF you had a campaign and had decided to aid the Sanshan invasion and were being confronted by people building things on planets you can't easily stop and were beating you over the head with it then I feel you would have more cause for complaint.
Thats closer to the angst you and I suffered from teleporting clergymen Judas Goat era - I think. So sure - voices on the summit saying "Hey Rote you suck, we have planetary batteries you can't touch lololol we win!" - I'd be right with you condemning it as crappy.
But nevertheless, you do have the option of wardeccing their corporation/alliances and obliterating them at source to prove your point.
That might actually be interesting - people getting off the fence and staking something of their corporate/alliance reputations on action in space. I'd love to see you guys accepting the Sansha coin and bullying "coalition" member corps into apologizing to the invaders or something - it would at least be different to see some roleplay from people with guns and ships to back it up.
Kind of like we both did in Mito when we read one too many Nikolai posts about warmechs and munitions sales on Galnet and decided to see if they could live up to it in space.
That's your option really Bacc. Take a leaf out of the Fraction's playbook and wardec people who are roleplaying their characters doing things your character's don't like. Publicise your campaign, set out your agenda and endgame, set yourself some targets and go make it happen. But don't complain about other people's roleplay ponyism without being prepared to crush the perpetrators into oblivion to make YOUR point.
I do sometimes think you guys in Stim took the anti-pony thing a bit too far from our time together. We in the Fraction have never told roleplayers in Eve they cannot do these things - hell, that would be hypocritical because we do our share of ponyism and always have. The point is that people should be prepared to face up to the consequences of their ponyism and thats where we were on the same page back in 2007: ponies, journals, IGS, local chat, any of these things can invite response. Our true enemies back then were the sandboxistas not the RP ponies.
We declared war on KD to show that the single cluster has consequences for self-gratifying nationalists. We never denied their right to "claim" they had stompy squarehead battlemechs and massive weapons manufacturing plants as depicted by their summit propaganda - we simply wanted to test their capability in space as well.
That is the true lesson of Mito.
The reason I think it's ridiculous RP is that there's fuck-all anyone can do about it. Like I said, what's to stop me from claiming my personal forces raided the planet and kidnapped every woman they could find for my brothel?
Absolutely nothing. Post a thread about it if you like. IGS is something of a court of public (IC) credibility. There is a fine art to claiming things that other players will let you get away with. Hell some well known Amarrian Nationalists claimed for years to be representing the will of the Empire and doing the Emperor's bidding. You can certainly make a thread and claim x,y,z on a given event (like PL did) whether its taken seriously or not is generally out of your hands though. But nobody stops you trying it.
But I do strongly disagree that there is "nothing" you can do about it. You can always click wardec and obliterate a player corporation/alliance that offends you. This is Eve after all. We all have options in escalation. Its why we play this game rather than wow I think.
Case in point: in SF this autumn we've destroyed 3 alliances so far and we're working on our 4th on our Providence vendetta because we got backstabbed by the "big-hats" in YWS0-Z. I'm sure Rote Kapelle could annihilate a few roleplay entities that offended you by using PI to simulate planetary batteries if you so choose to do so. And I bet you'd have fun and get in the news doing it.
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Just to note: there are other ways to resolve differences than just wardecs (though that remains an option, obviously).
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Post a thread about it if you like. IGS is something of a court of public (IC) credibility. There is a fine art to claiming things that other players will let you get away with.
This little kernel of wisdom applies both here and in a million other cases that one can name, and is really what public roleplay is all about. The mechanics of the game are not consent-based, but the roleplay we build on top of them is, and has to be to provide an answer to godmoding and harassment and overreach and so many of the other problems we find in this kind of fun-making.
Just to note: there are other ways to resolve differences than just wardecs (though that remains an option, obviously).
You lie! *wardec*
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The competitive world of EVE will never allow an individual's imagination to roam completely free. If someone is threatened by, or you stand to gain (politically, socially, diplomatically) from your 'pretend time' GI JOE moment, the validity of the act will be questioned. These kinds of actions require an implied consent from anyone who is exposed to your event, and I think we all know the odds of finding consensus about anything on any topic with over 15 people.
With that in mind, there are far worse things to happen than having your non-existent event question by a fellow player...like no one giving a shit at all. ;)
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For your specific example, one would think that transferring a few thousand marines or militants would pale in comparison to the garrisons that likely protect the Senate and such. And, Sansha NPC god-moding aside ;) space-ground assaults likely have all sorts of tactical issues: SAMs, tracking, etc. Players can't simply hand-wave away the existing defenses for all the reasons mentioned above.
I would have no problem with a character attempting just that, as long as the player recognized the IC futility of the gesture.
PI spaceports with associated mercenary aerospace units. Enough to gain a window of aerospace superiority of sufficient duration to allow 200 or so industrials to deploy their 10,000+ troops each.
It is IC futile when it does not suit the storyline as determined by the GMs. Another day, it could be a great and glorious success, with only 1% of the player effort.
Also, you can't planetary bombard as such, however it is possible to drop thousands of containers of heavy metals into the atmosphere, as a James Bond supervillian type scheme. Now why not?
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The long and the short of it: You can do what you want, but you are most likely to succeed when you do things that a Capsuleer can do. Placing planetary infrastructure for the purpose of planetary defense and announcing on IGS that you are doing so, in order for the Event Team to actually see it, is the way to go. With 200+ people in local at any given time, IGS is the best place to give the Event Team a heads-up on the situation so they are on the lookout for you in-game.
This is actually one of the major reasons why this kind of "posing" RP does not work for me personally very well.
From IC point of view, posting your planetary defense plans publicly on IGS before the attack so the Sansha know what to expect is, well, ...really stupid? Yet, the player wants to make the GMs aware of what he is doing in order to have a better chance of success, and IGS rules prevent OOC posting. So the resulting post is actually a mix of IC and OOC; something the player does, for OOC reasons, imitating the posting style of his character (as opposed to something the character does, since for most characters such post would break opsec).
Such IC/OOC mix makes me uncomfortable, and uncertain how to interact with it.
3) I do not like the player consensus arguing about and deciding what is true after the event. Outnumbered tens to one, the GMs have no way to pay equal attention to everyone, and so the most vocal ones (both during the event and after) get heard. I do not like it that players who have the time to discuss it in EVE fiction etc are the ones who get most say in what happened. I want equal opportunity to whomever simply can be present.
I agree with this very much. I would add this kind of "shouting match" interaction style makes it very difficult for more quiet/modest/introverted characters to affect the course of events, and creates an environment where it is hard or impossible to successfully play certain character concepts - a bias that in my opinion takes away from the richness of potential RP.
As a note, I find shared storytelling fun in smaller groups and tabletops, where OOC communication and negotiation is easy. I guess I do not enjoy the "compete to get your stuff heard" factor? ;)
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The long and the short of it: You can do what you want, but you are most likely to succeed when you do things that a Capsuleer can do. Placing planetary infrastructure for the purpose of planetary defense and announcing on IGS that you are doing so, in order for the Event Team to actually see it, is the way to go. With 200+ people in local at any given time, IGS is the best place to give the Event Team a heads-up on the situation so they are on the lookout for you in-game.
This is actually one of the major reasons why this kind of "posing" RP does not work for me personally very well.
From IC point of view, posting your planetary defense plans publicly on IGS before the attack so the Sansha know what to expect is, well, ...really stupid? Yet, the player wants to make the GMs aware of what he is doing in order to have a better chance of success, and IGS rules prevent OOC posting. So the resulting post is actually a mix of IC and OOC; something the player does, for OOC reasons, imitating the posting style of his character (as opposed to something the character does, since for most characters such post would break opsec).
Such IC/OOC mix makes me uncomfortable, and uncertain how to interact with it.
Posting on IGS beforehand, detailing what you are doing, as a requirement for your RP to be "effective", due to being seen and heard in advance, means only 1 style of RP "works".
Which would be propaganda similar to various dictators in history. Boasting of how they've built an impregnable fortress, will unleash the mother of all battles, etc.
In addition to this, it means it is not what you do in-space, in-game and in real time, that really matters, but what you post on forums, when you have all the time in the world to write.
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((Why didn't I know that Amann == Nikiruu?!))
I suspected he was Dropbear on an alt. :s
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Dropbear would stay away from our discussions on the ic/ooc divide if he wanted to preserve his sanity. :lol:
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Posting on IGS beforehand, detailing what you are doing, as a requirement for your RP to be "effective", due to being seen and heard in advance, means only 1 style of RP "works".
On the contrary. I've done plenty of RP related to the Sansha invasions that was not prepared ahead of time; but then again, I didn't claim to be setting up planetside defenses. My example was specific to the situation, and how to best go about doing that.
Verone, Ghost Hunter, and a few others have had interactions with event actors that was not proceeded by specifically stated intents on IGS: it was their "alignment" and previously stated beliefs and faction alignments that helped them get the "foot in the door".
Which would be propaganda similar to various dictators in history. Boasting of how they've built an impregnable fortress, will unleash the mother of all battles, etc.
To be blunt, no one said anything like this. Again, The Cosmopolite didn't claim victory; he was letting the opposition know that they were prepared. Never did they state they were going to win, simply that they were going to put up what defense they could.
Deltole was a success, and Oruse had mixed results. What was the difference? IN-GAME interaction. Players putting up a defense IN SPACE. I would argue that the in space side of that was the most effective, though the IGS "politics" helped win the day.
Also, I may have nudged a couple people here and there to get the ball rolling. My super sekrit spai netwurk and all. I'm kind of sneaky like that. :yar:
In addition to this, it means it is not what you do in-space, in-game and in real time, that really matters, but what you post on forums, when you have all the time in the world to write.
If all someone did was post in forums, they'd have no time to do anything in-game. They wouldn't be able to interact in-game. How could they change the course of events this way? A combination is fine; sometimes that's not really necessary though. In-game actions can have profound effects. Drake Arson (I think I got that name right) didn't post on IGS his specific plans for a very spectacular player-driven event ahead of time, and I had more fun at that than I did at any one of the CCP created events. On the other hand, there are those who just plain can't keep ISK in their wallet, let alone have enough time to really play the game effectively (despite high SP counts), so they sit, listen, learn, and when the mood suits them and they have a plan, they set the wheels in motion.
::whistles innocently::
Point being, for specific courses of action, IGS statements are pretty much necessary, but not required. That is, in respect to interacting with CCP storylines that are getting Event attention. For everything there are in-game means to accomplish a goal as well; evemail, private messages, boat violencing, payments of large quantities of ISK, market manipulation...
...the list goes on and on. Like I said, find a point of interaction, and run with it. I've had plenty of fun interacting in events and not having a "public" role. I can happily say I'm enjoying it, but then I'm leaving the game here in a few days so as to be able to focus on some personal projects. I don't have the time to throw myself headfirst into what I'd really like to do in-game. So, until my account goes inactive I'll nudge, I'll watch, I'll listen, and I'll /sip to my heart's content.
That's my point of interaction.
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Like I said, find a point of interaction, and run with it.
This is a good piece of advice if you want to be involved in events where the resolving mechanics is not immersion in your character and interaction with the client, but convincing the GM to take your stuff into the storyline, one way or another. There's indeed many ways to do this convincing.
But for some of us (including me) the events are not actually very interesting, because so much of the "say stuff on local / IGS to get GM attention" going on. Even if I do not do it myself, it makes the events unappealing.
Obviously, my "point of interaction" that I run with is to deny that the Sansha attacks are a galaxy-wide emergency worse than say the fall of Eytjangard into enemy hands (THOSE BASTARDS) or a pirate activity surge somewhere I care about, and continue doing whatever I'd do anyway, possibly spicing it by going to shoot some Sansha if some appear in the Republic when I am awake.
And I am fine with that, actually. I never was into having One Story EVE Is About anyway. ;)
I just simply do not think these events work for all sort of RPers, and tried to explain why (when asked about it). And I strongly object to the idea that in them, stuff is resolved by "real RP" as opposed to the less-RP-like actually doing the stuff "for real" in space. I know people are excited about them (and that's fine, like I said), but please do understand that this sort of RP just isn't for everyone, and probably will never be, no matter how many times you tell us just to find a way to do it. And, did I mention it, this is fine? It's not that I am bittervetting about there being events that are not my style... I am sure CCP will do other sorts of stuff in the future too. (Maybe they will even make FW affect people who have not opted in.)
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But for some of us (including me) the events are not actually very interesting, because so much of the "say stuff on local / IGS to get GM attention" going on. Even if I do not do it myself, it makes the events unappealing.
Obviously, my "point of interaction" that I run with is to deny that the Sansha attacks are a galaxy-wide emergency worse than say the fall of Eytjangard into enemy hands (THOSE BASTARDS) or a pirate activity surge somewhere I care about, and continue doing whatever I'd do anyway, possibly spicing it by going to shoot some Sansha if some appear in the Republic when I am awake.
And I am fine with that, actually. I never was into having One Story EVE Is About anyway. ;)
That's awesome, and I'm not saying you're wrong. You have your point of interaction. :D
I just simply do not think these events work for all sort of RPers, and tried to explain why (when asked about it).
I completely agree with you.
And I strongly object to the idea that in them, stuff is resolved by "real RP" as opposed to the less-RP-like actually doing the stuff "for real" in space. I know people are excited about them (and that's fine, like I said), but please do understand that this sort of RP just isn't for everyone, and probably will never be, no matter how many times you tell us just to find a way to do it. And, did I mention it, this is fine? It's not that I am bittervetting about there being events that are not my style... I am sure CCP will do other sorts of stuff in the future too. (Maybe they will even make FW affect people who have not opted in.)
I don't agree that "doing stuff for real in space" is less RP-like. I also don't believe that there is resolution only by "real RP". Oruse was pretty much proof that words alone don't win the day; Deltole just showed that a combination of the two playstyles has some interesting results. Emergent behavior FTW. ;) Everyone has their own style; that's my point. The more these different playstyles interact, and the more open everyone is to different styles, the more rich the game environment can be.
That said, not everyone enjoys RP. Not everyone sees the Sansha events as something worth their time. In fact, some people just see a target rich environment. Should we all force them to start down the RP route? I don't think so; it's not what they enjoy.
But, you know, Incursion is just around the corner, and forum RP won't do squat to change an Incursion. ;) It's going to need in-space action to turn things around.
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If you want to RP with CCP event actors, you need to make yourself visible to them same as with any other RP-ers.
IGS can cause make you and your actions visible, so can in-corp RP, joining RP channels, talking in local or simply affecting in-space stuff visible to others.
There is not good or bad method, just effective and ineffective methods. If you want to be heard, you need to speak up. In a game where a lot of things are left to the imagination, you must make yourself heard in other people's imaginations, you just can't rely only on your 'in-space' presence.
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((Why didn't I know that Amann == Nikiruu?!))
I suspected he was Dropbear on an alt. :s
I suspect everyone is you on an alt.
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/speculation: True Slaves are Kuvakei on an alt... >.>
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We've been quite happy to leave the handwaving RP to others and focus on shooting those trying to take people as slaves.
I do wish there were dropships in space though.
I wonder to what degree 'uplifting' will remain part of the Sansha motivation once the Incursions are patched and automated.
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I do wish there were dropships in space though.
I imagine a game where there were dropships heading to the planet, something small and fast and hard to lock. (something for the pilots in inties to chase). Having them leap from the carrier down to the planet, hang around (disappear? Land?) for a few minutes and then reappear at the planet surface and head back out to their ships. I imagine they'd be hard to stop more than a small fraction of.
Explode them and discover "civilians" who can be delivered to the local stations for well wishes of the local population (loyalty points?)
Now, that would be cool.
And I think a lot of them would get through with their cargos, but I don't think they'd be "2 million civilians uplifted" per incursion.
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Maybe dropships in Dust? That can also unload military ground forces? Or is that way over the top. I still want to see the ability to dock into a carrier or super cap, and undock into the fight. That would be cool. Carrier launching a squad of interceptor pilots and blowing them all up with his own smartbomb :)
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It's possible this might be a lead in to DUST. Maybe there will be Sansha NPC enemies. :D
It certainly seems like the Incursions could be a reason for the Empires to develop the tech (whatever it is) present in DUST.
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Would also be good for DUST PvE...
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Just wanted to post a brief reply. This time of year kicks my ass, so sorry that I'm glazing over about half the thread and not taking time to reply to more.
In a PM I just sent Ghost Hunter, I think I summed up my problem with what went on the other day pretty well, so I want to share it here. He was asking my thoughts on using actual anchored structures, for instance a POS, in such RP, as opposed to cloaking and doing so. My response was as follows:
Actually, I think that would be a very creative way to do it. What my complaint comes down to is the fact that there is literally nothing anyone can do about the RP besides spout off in local. When you're claiming to be using a starbase, for instance, if the empire loyalists want to come knock down your sandcastle, they literally can by reinforcing your POS.
At the end of the day, that's my bottom line--can the RP be somehow impacted by actions in space? Can someone who doesn't want to /sip in local still be a part of the action? Can they still have an impact on the outcome without having to spam emotes and robe-and-wizard hat in local?
I guarantee you that of the 30ish Rote Kapelle pilots we brought down, half of them would be itching to hop on the next Sansha invasion like a carebear would an officer spawn--IF our being there had somehow had an impact on the outcome of the event and they got to see that. As it was, I can tell you that the fact that our name made EVE News with the killing of that carrier got a lot of non-RP guys interested. As for measurable impact on the event? We kept the field clean of random ships, but frankly those ships would have died just as fast to the Sansha had they stuck around anyway--I know, because we lost one to them.
You're going to attract a fringe of EVE players by playing gi joe in local, but if you do that and allow for actual actions to play a role too, you'll find more and more people interested.
I get that for a lot of people, EVE isn't a PvP game (okay, no, I don't get that at all, but I'll overlook it for a moment). But for most people, EVE is a PvP game, and for RP, particularly RP supported by CCP employees or volunteers, to eschew any sort of actual PvP is going to simultaneously eschew large sections of the EVE memberbase.
Suffice to say using your POS or other in-space shootable structure as a prop in the RP is fantastic from where I'm sitting, because it makes me sit there and think "hmm, do I want to risk my fleet shooting it, does it fit our organization's RP to do so, etc". Which in turn adds immersion to the event. Playing /sip in local, on the other hand, destroys the immersion for those of us flying in circles next to the Sansha wondering where the other 50 people that are talking in local are if they're having such a big impact.
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The below QFT and to confirm that at least some people got what I was trying to say:
I don't agree that "doing stuff for real in space" is less RP-like. I also don't believe that there is resolution only by "real RP".
Suffice to say using your POS or other in-space shootable structure as a prop in the RP is fantastic from where I'm sitting, because it makes me sit there and think "hmm, do I want to risk my fleet shooting it, does it fit our organization's RP to do so, etc". Which in turn adds immersion to the event. Playing /sip in local, on the other hand, destroys the immersion for those of us flying in circles next to the Sansha wondering where the other 50 people that are talking in local are if they're having such a big impact.
I imagine a game where there were dropships heading to the planet, something small and fast and hard to lock. (something for the pilots in inties to chase). Having them leap from the carrier down to the planet, hang around (disappear? Land?) for a few minutes and then reappear at the planet surface and head back out to their ships. I imagine they'd be hard to stop more than a small fraction of.
Explode them and discover "civilians" who can be delivered to the local stations for well wishes of the local population (loyalty points?)
Now, that would be cool.
I'd also add that I do not think this sort of events have to be only for people who really really enjoy RP (let alone make-believe RP). One of the reasons why EVE is so great is that it does not, in most cases, matter much if people RP or not, because from IC point-of-view when they have an impact, they have an impact, and whether they were chatting IC or OOC on fleet chat while making it is completely irrelevant. This is part of what makes EVE such a rich game in events and backgrounds: even people who do not RP are there to create the shared sandbox story.
There are obviously RPers who want to just make-believe, and there are non-RPers who just want to see stuff explode, but I think most people are two categories in between: 1) RPers who also want to have an ingame effect, and 2) non-RPers who actually care about the storylines, official news and events too, even though they do not do any of that stuff in character. I'd guess the majority of players of EVE is in that second category, actually. Therefore making events such that they appeal only to a particular type of RPer would seem rather exclusive. (Conditional, because I do not think CCP intends all events to be like the Sansha ones have been.)
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Fuel for the god-modding fire?
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1425167
Surely it's getting a little ridiculous now.
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The difference there is that the players are determining the results rather than making the attempt and letting.CCP decide.
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Fuel for the god-modding fire?
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1425167
Surely it's getting a little ridiculous now.
Yea, it look weird for me when i readed it... :eek:
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The difference there is that the players are determining the results rather than making the attempt and letting.CCP decide.
Yeah, and I doubt the Live Events team would enjoy it much. Even the local pirates who I've never heard of before seem to dislike those claims.
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Fuel for the god-modding fire?
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1425167
Surely it's getting a little ridiculous now.
Yea, it look weird for me when i readed it... :eek:
I fixed that on the thread. It's really very ironic, what actions they are taking now to save lives, without realizing the consequences of what they are doing. And its PF, too.
I'll make another reply to the other material in this thread sometime later, as I have a number of things to state...
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The difference there is that the players are determining the results rather than making the attempt and letting.CCP decide.
This, basically. At first read-through I saw a couple of ways that could have been written in a way that announced an attempt at all that stuff and then letting CCP decide. At second I had five different rewrites in my head that were screaming to be let out as attempts since they all made sense to me, while leaving the decision in the hands of the event team.
Sadly, I don't have the resources nor possibility to do all the in-game stuff required for such efforts so I couldn't make them happen.
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[20:12:46] Anslo > ((if they think im god modding tell em to go back to the RP bars and be emo self important asses thinking they're the RP shit))
There ya have it :lol:
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http://www.ihavereturned.com/latestreports.html
CAPSULEERS EVACUATE ANYED VII, ANTEM IV AND V
CAPSULEER INTERCEPTION OF NATION COMMUNICATIONS CONTINUES TO PROVE A CHALLENGE TO ONGOING OPERATIONAL SECURITY. NEW PROTOCOLS ARE BEING DEVELOPED AND WILL BE ESTABLISHED BEFORE THE NEXT ORDERS ARE ISSUED. COMMSEC HAS NOW BEEN PROMOTED TO TASKFORCE ONE. NATION WILL PREVAIL.
CURRENT ORDERS REMAIN. CONTINUE AS PLANNED.
GALNET MEDIA: EVACUATION OF ANYED VII AND ANTEM IV & V COMPLETE
- NATION RELAY 3.12.112
Is it a CCP site? It got acknowledged at any rate.
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See the existing thread (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=1411.0).
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http://www.ihavereturned.com/latestreports.html
Yes, they're watching.
This message sponsored by the NHB Ultra Happy Chip; ORDER Y (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/NHB_Happy_Chips)OURS TODAY!*
*Subliminal advertising provided by Nikiruu.
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It got acknowledged at any rate.
Very interesting...
http://www.ihavereturned.com/latestreports.html
Yes, they're watching.
This message sponsored by the NHB Ultra Happy Chip; ORDER Y (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/NHB_Happy_Chips)OURS TODAY!*
*Subliminal advertising provided by Nikiruu.
I-- uh, excuse me. I have to go... place a market order.
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http://twitter.com/citizenastur
If you haven't realized, Nation has entered the Twitter age.
I'm... depressed now.
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http://twitter.com/citizenastur
If you haven't realized, Nation has entered the Twitter age.
I'm... depressed now.
Sansha's on twitter?
I've suddenly lost all respect for the guy.
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http://twitter.com/citizenastur
If you haven't realized, Nation has entered the Twitter age.
I'm... depressed now.
THAT IS IT I AM MAKING A TWITTER
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http://twitter.com/citizenastur
If you haven't realized, Nation has entered the Twitter age.
I'm... depressed now.
Sansha's on twitter?
I've suddenly lost all respect for the guy.
Only Astur, I hope.
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Perhaps we need a Backstage Twitter thread for those of us who joined the Tweetfleet long ago.
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This is an old debate with the Godmodding, but always a thin line to walk.
I have issues with anyone claiming they have evacuated civilians from a sovereign planetary government. I'm pretty sure local Holders would be less than helpful to foreigners coming in and taking their citizens, be they nation or other random capsuleers.
Our version (successful or not), was to simply supply forces in advance that I could basically prove in-game, and not speak on the outcome, leaving that to the actors present, etc if they chose to. We made very clear effort to state we gave up all control of those units to the local authorities, etc and that we were not running the show when they were on the surface. Capsuleers have no authority on planets aside from their own land, etc, which you can always make a case for. Perhaps sending troops to your own planetary structures can be backed up, but I don't see much else aside from that.
I just don't see any way to rationalize IC, say, a KPV freighter running into minmatar space and 'helping' the locals by taking a bunch of civilians and dropping troops during a fight. They'd be shot out of orbit immediately, I would imagine.
I'm sure opinions are varied on this, but a tough line to walk :ugh:
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They'd be shot out of orbit immediately, I would imagine.
Well, so would the Sansha dropships be, so... ;)
(Joke. Actually I agree with you.)
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I have issues with anyone claiming they have evacuated civilians from a sovereign planetary government. I'm pretty sure local Holders would be less than helpful to foreigners coming in and taking their citizens, be they nation or other random capsuleers.
Bit off topic, but I generally agree. Also, the implications of being able to (relatively) easily evacuate whole planets has the potential to quickly create suspension of disbelief problems in regard to world consistency. Just consider the fuss over Caldari Prime occupation.
Also, frankly, if a random capsuleer can evacuate a whole planet, it will be rather hard to come up with reasons why certain Amarr capsuleers haven't already "evacuated" majority of Minmatar planets. Or vice versa. Or why random griefers haven't evacuated everybody everywhere, just because they can and it makes lolRPers mad. :ugh:
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Interesting...
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1431879&page=1#10
When you recycle the Sansha codebreaker (twice) -
Gives you:
1x Badly Mangled Components
1x Codebreaker 1
1x True Slave Decryption Node
edit/awesome, the True Slave node:
Functionally, this piece of hardware - obviously of Sansha origin - is an extremely sophisticated parallel processing unit. Connecting it to a standard interface bus and running a few diagnostics reveals that it has been configured to act as the master node for a quasi-distributed decryption system, and its response rate suggests that it's exceptionally efficient at this task.
It is, however, difficult to ignore the fact that it's also a head in a jar - particularly when it opens its eyes briefly, looks around, and frowns.
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True Slave frowns upon its conspicuously odd location!
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This Christmas gift just became AWESOME! :O
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So, I reread this chron (http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=12-07-10) tonight and given recent discoveries (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/True_Slave_Decryption_Node), I'm now really wondering who this particular (http://eve-search.com/stats/Ghost_Hunter) capsuleer (http://eve-search.com/stats/Nikilaiki_Ruutarhara) employer (http://eve-search.com/stats/Citizen_Astur) was...
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Oh man look at my ancient forum whoring stats, that's pretty boss
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capsuleer (http://eve-search.com/stats/Nikilaiki_Ruutarhara)
It wasn't her. Trust me.
Nothing to see here, move along people, move along.
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http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=85482&page=1#1
First thread, and the first reply is from Toastmaster. . .
Ghost Hunter, Toaster. Signs of relationship. . . with Toastmaster.
It all makes sense.
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http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=85482&page=1#1
First thread, and the first reply is from Toastmaster. . .
Ghost Hunter, Toaster. Signs of relationship. . . with Toastmaster.
It all makes sense.
The grammar and spelling! σ_σ
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http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=85482&page=1#1
First thread, and the first reply is from Toastmaster. . .
Ghost Hunter, Toaster. Signs of relationship. . . with Toastmaster.
It all makes sense.
The grammar and spelling! σ_σ
This is the part where everyone dives through my post history I made when I was 12 years old.
I REGRET. NOTHING.
(also we should get back on topic)
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New chronicle Uplifted (http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=20-12-10) sheds significant light on this all.
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Okay, so does the chronicle put paid to the planetary defenses theory? To wit:
With synchronized releases of focused electromagnetic blasts, they smoothly wiped all defensive structures and communications satellites from orbit.
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Mostly. Unless there are counter-measures possible for the few incursions which are known about ahead of time.
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Standing by for the IGS posts about inventing counter-measures and deploying them ...
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Standing by for the IGS posts about inventing counter-measures and deploying them ...
I'll let someone put this one up on the IGS but seeing how Navy ships,scanners and electronics are affected while Capsuleer ones are not the suggestion would be to see where the difference lies and just upgrade the Navy ships.
I also suggest a Farraday cage against the EMP.
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A Faraday cage for the whole planet? Or for specific satellites and installations? The former is impossible, the other has the nasty side effect of preventing communications.
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I'd say Farraday cages for ground installations and having hardened landlines for communication would do the trick Casiella.
Would help with ground defenses not being disabled.
That's just a suggestion that I thought of from the top of my head.
My main question still remains:
Why aren't capsuleer ships affected by all these pulses and whatnot that are disabling whole planets and Navy ships ?
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would have thought the ships would be pretty hardened in teh first place, being A: space technology, thus routinely exposed to !SPACE WIGGLY DUST!, and also being B: military space technology, where such things may be used as weapons for this exact purpose.
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Why aren't capsuleer ships affected by all these pulses and whatnot that are disabling whole planets and Navy ships ?
Linked to Magical Jovian Tech in the pod
/shrug
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Faraday cages prevent the passing of electronic fields. That means that inbound/outbound communications are also a no-go.
So, sure, you might test some captured Sansha equipment in there, but if you put a Faraday cage around your C2 infrastructure, you're screwed.
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Faraday cages prevent the passing of electronic fields. That means that inbound/outbound communications are also a no-go.
So, sure, you might test some captured Sansha equipment in there, but if you put a Faraday cage around your C2 infrastructure, you're screwed.
And one of the biggest practical weaknesses is power cables and aerials. Nuclear weapon generated EMP will travel down them with peak voltages sufficient to melt cables.
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In the blink of an eye, the gravitational force of a star was generated over just a few short kilometers, compressing the fabric of space-time into a temporary singularity.
They walked out into the green tinted glare of wide-angle tractor beams, which lifted them off the ground by the thousands.
The massive carrier was shrouded in a layer of projected energy shielding so thick that one could barely see the heavy armor plates beneath.
Instead, its supplemental capacitors spun to life, sizzling with an overabundance of power as relay switches connected them directly to the built-in shield emitters. The field created was far more powerful than a normal shield but highly unstable. That was the point.
A tremendous blast of energy spread out in a spherical pattern, physically pushing ships away with the crushing force of charged gravitons.
:idea:
The Yan Jung nation possessed advanced gravitronic technology and force field theories.
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As the wormhole generator was apparently confirmed as Nation design and origin, I imagine any ancient-race speculation towards the Sansha isss largely inert.
Man do I feel embarrassed about that mail I sent to kuvakei.
Edit: To clarify, with the exception of the tractor beams (which have I have never seen used anywhere other than in-game in the PF) all that the chronicle describes is simply contemporary technology everyone uses with fancy words.
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Man do I feel embarrassed about that mail I sent to kuvakei.
Yes. Well, at least you didn't ask Sansha to "show us your tits" as some of my corpmates elected.
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In the blink of an eye, the gravitational force of a star was generated over just a few short kilometers, compressing the fabric of space-time into a temporary singularity.
In short, a wormhole. Or point defect. ;)
They walked out into the green tinted glare of wide-angle tractor beams, which lifted them off the ground by the thousands.
Tractor beams are used on ships. It's not a stretch to imagine it being used to lift other things off the ground.
The massive carrier was shrouded in a layer of projected energy shielding so thick that one could barely see the heavy armor plates beneath.
Shield boosters.
Instead, its supplemental capacitors spun to life, sizzling with an overabundance of power as relay switches connected them directly to the built-in shield emitters. The field created was far more powerful than a normal shield but highly unstable. That was the point.
A tremendous blast of energy spread out in a spherical pattern, physically pushing ships away with the crushing force of charged gravitons.
"Smart" Bombs (a misnomer if I've ever heard one; how the hell is an AOE weapon Smart!?) are used on the carriers. Though, the part about smaller ships dying is... over-exaggerated. My Rifter survived Nation smart bombs without taking much damage, and I was orbiting pretty close.
:idea:
The Yan Jung nation possessed advanced gravitronic technology and force field theories.
Yes, well... that goes without saying, doesn't it? I'd wager that much of the technology capsuleers has is based on older tech in one way or another. I'd say Sansha's Nation, with it's overabundance of processing power, would be quite capable of developing the technology with the pieces lying around, and the brains of those who have studied them closely.
Though, I think people miss the big one:
Before the victims below could understand what was happening, the nanites had already passed through the outer layer of skin, navigated the bloodstream, and attached themselves to the base of their spinal cords. When enough of the insidious little things had amassed in a single person, they begin to emit rhythmic electrical pulses ― not enough to disrupt higher brain functions, but more than enough to overpower the simple neural pathways below the neck. People screamed and shouted, struggled in vain, and cried pitifully for help, but their bodies wouldn’t respond.
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Takmahl_Phrenic_Appendix
or more importantly:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrenic_nerve
They walked out into the green tinted glare of wide-angle tractor beams, which lifted them off the ground by the thousands. Their bodies tumbled slowly, out of control, up into the waiting dropships.
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Takmahl_Biodroid_Controller
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Transcranial_Microcontrollers
From another chronicle, dealing with wormholes...
Victor raised an eyebrow. The Sansha were always a prime surveillance and acquisition interest for Imperial intelligence. Their advances in cybernetic technology provided the live realization for the kinds of medical experiments that Amarrian scientists could only dream of. The Sansha have long known that they were being watched, and that errant ships had been captured and dissected by Victor's own men from time to time. He wondered if the Empire would be blamed for the destruction of one of their worlds.
My guess is that, like many other of Kuvakei's plans, he's a normal guy; he's going for the head (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/True_Slave_Decryption_Node) and not the body.
/Giggity
Or, Nation does indeed want your brain. Also, no; this does not say that there are no Citizens in Nation. Quite the opposite in fact. Hence Ghost's earlier statement.
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What's a biodroid, I wonder... oh wait, I already know.
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What's a biodroid, I wonder... oh wait, I already know.
:yar:
Faraday cages prevent the passing of electronic fields. That means that inbound/outbound communications are also a no-go.
So, sure, you might test some captured Sansha equipment in there, but if you put a Faraday cage around your C2 infrastructure, you're screwed.
Unless you're using something quite easily found in New Eden, and something Capsuleers have access to: fluid routers. Quantum entanglement ftw.
Also, on an unrelated but fascinating note:
http://www.cnsi.ucla.edu/staticpages/core-facilities
I love being an autodidact. ;)
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbVR0JxdNJs
Sansha are clearly evil, black and white no gray there guys.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbVR0JxdNJs
Sansha are clearly evil, black and white no gray there guys.
SSssshhh! Don't let PF and the very guys running the show get involved here.
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I'm not sure exactly what a dev blog does to justify a position about the black and white nature of the Nation faction. There's nothing to stop players from adding some gray to the mix. Or is that not allowed now? ;)
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As Kaleigh said, the conflict may be black & white, but the RP does not have to be.
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Warning: This is a humour-free zone. Facetiousness will be punished.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbVR0JxdNJs
Sansha are clearly evil, black and white no gray there guys.
"A surprising number of players have allied themselves with Sansha Kuvakei..."
And people wonder why the Gallente bloc has had such poor RP strength compared to the Amarr and Minmatar.
Villainy and moral ambiguity is more attractive than heroism most of the time.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbVR0JxdNJs
Sansha are clearly evil, black and white no gray there guys.
"A surprising number of players have allied themselves with Sansha Kuvakei..."
And people wonder why the Gallente bloc has had such poor RP strength compared to the Amarr and Minmatar.
Villainy and moral ambiguity is more attractive than heroism most of the time.
You're mistaking hoeroes for pansies here, common mistake.
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God, I miss violent Gallente nationalism.
I, personally, like the shades of gray in the Sansharawr RP. It's an interesting reversal of all the Blood Raider RP back when it was the popular flavor. The PF there blatantly stated that most Sani Sabik are relatively innocuous heretics, yet nearly every single Sani Sabik RPer played only the most extreme of unrepentant monsters.
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"... A surprising amount of players have allied with Sansha ..."
Gods. Have they played Eve Online the game?