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EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Shaalira on 31 Aug 2012, 21:23
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Original Post by CCP Ytterbium (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1865085#post1865085)
WINTER ITERATIONS
After looking into current mechanics and feedback there are a certain number of points we want to change on the system upgrade and war zone control systems.
WAR ZONE CONTROL EFFECTS
Current warzone control design is flawed as it does not encourage players to hold space, only to upgrade I-hubs when they need to buy stuff from the LP store to get massive reductions. Ideally we would want players fighting and struggling to keep control over their space, that is why we propose the following.
We would remove LP store price reduction in the new system, and only modify LP gained. As such, tier1 WZ would reduce all LP gains by 50%, tier2 would keep them on the same field as of now, tier3 would give a 100% LP gain bonus, tier4 150% and tier5 200% LP gain bonus. This would encourage factions to actually keep and maintain space to have the LP bonus rather than just push once in a while.
NEW SYSTEM COSTS
We are not particularly fond of how easy it is to upgrade a system currently. On top of that it is quite easy for attacking players to reduce upgrade level by attacking complexes in the same system due to how the bleed-out on the I-Hub works (this will be tackled further down below).
Part of the fix is to increase LP amounts required to upgrade a system to the new numbers mentioned below:
* Level1: 40,000
* Level2: 60,000
* Level3: 90,000
* Level4: 140,000
* Level5: 200,000
* Buffer: 300,000
NEW SYSTEM UPGRADES
As mentioned quite a few times, current system upgrades are a bit lame, as not really providing needed bonuses, especially in systems with no stations. Iteration would include:
Level1:
* +5 station manufacturing, copy, ME, PE, Invention slots
* 10% market tax reduction
* 10% repair cost reduction
* 5% manufacturing time reduction
Level2:
* +10 station manufacturing, copy, ME, PE, Invention slots
* 20% market tax reduction
* 20% repair cost reduction
* 10% manufacturing time reduction
Level3:
* +15 station manufacturing, copy, ME, PE, Invention slots
* 30% market tax reduction
* 30% repair cost reduction
* 15% manufacturing time reduction
* 10% reduction to starbase fuel cost
Level4:
* +20 station manufacturing, copy, ME, PE, Invention slots
* 40% market tax reduction
* 40% repair cost reduction
* 20% manufacturing time reduction
* 10% reduction to starbase fuel cost
Level5:
* +25 station manufacturing, copy, ME, PE, Invention slots
* 50% market tax reduction
* 50% repair cost reduction
* 30% manufacturing time reduction
* 20% reduction to starbase fuel cost
* Able to anchor Cyno Jammer
CYNO JAMMER
As you can see above, the Cyno Jammer is back with a vengeance. However we took into consideration the feedback we received during Fanfest and various community channels, and it would work as mentioned below.
* Bought from FW LP stores as 1 BPC (total cost including manufacturing materials estimated around 100-130m ISK)
* Has only 25% hitpoints of the null-security Cyno Jammer version (thus about 4 million HPs instead of 16)
* Cyno Jammer is launched from the ship cargohold and deployed into space, requires the "config starbase equipment" role (this technically restricts all NPC militia members to launch such a structure - you have to be in an enlisted player made corporation)
* Cyno Jammer requires a spool-up time (5 or 10 minutes)
* Cyno Jammer automatically turn online once spool-up timer has passed, causing its effects to be activated for the specified amount of time
* May only be anchored when proper system upgrade has been met
* Only one Cyno Jammer may be anchored per solar system
* Cyno Jammer needs to be launched near the system Infrastructure Hub (between 5 and 10km)
Working conditions:
* An anchored Cyno Jammer automatically turns online after the spool-up period and works for 1 hour
* Deployed Cyno Jammer is automatically unanchored and destroyed if the solar system upgrade level goes below minimum requirements while it is active
* Deployed Cyno Jammer automatically unanchors and self-destructs once their lifetime has expired
* Cyno Jammers are considered as militia objects and may be shot by the opposing factions without any consequence (neutrals can shoot them but have to take a security status hit)
* Has same effect than null-security version - prevents Cynosural Fields to be created in the solar system as long as it is active
LP DONATION MAINTENANCE FEE
The more system upgrades a faction has, the more donated LP is wasted to maintain current upgrades. Technically this would mean a faction with no upgrade would get a 0% fee while donating LP to the I-hub, while a faction reaching tier 5 war zone control would spend 70-75% of its LPs into the maintenance fee before they are counted for the upgrades themselves.
This mainly done to offset the massive LP gain bonus when reaching higher War Zone tiers, and also provide diminishing returns to factions owning vast amount of space.
GENERAL CAPTURE CHANGES
Last but not least, we have a certain number of smaller changes that have been suggested and requested for a while.
* Reduce I-hub LP bleed from attacked complexes: I-hub currently lose 50% of attacked complex LP amount, which makes it difficult to hold a system upgrades. We would like to reduce the bleed out to 10% to make it less easy to reduce it. Thus capturing a Major site would only remove 3,000 LPs from the I-hub instead of 15,000 as it is today.
* Defensive plexing gives LP: as title says, but with a twist. LP amount is based on contested system % to avoid farming. Thus, a system that is 50% contested would only give 50% of the total LP amount available. Maximum cap would be set to 75% to encourage players to still be in the offensive.
* Attacking complexes don't pay anything in vulnerable systems: currently it is possibly to still gain LPs and VPs in vulnerable systems, not only allowing you to farm the system instead of taking the I-hub, but also give you a huge VP buffer as they keep piling up indefinitely. Plan is to stop attackers from getting LPs and VPs when system is vulnerable - we would still leave a small VP buffer for attackers, but nothing bigger than 100-200 VPs.
That's pretty much for this thread, as mentioned above, we have more stuff coming, but that will concern NPCs and FW complexes, both of which are covered elsewhere in the Features & Ideas Discussion forum.
Many thanks for reading this huuuuuge wall of text, constructive comments are welcome
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CCP Ytterbium's original post. (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1866320#post1866320)
Alright folks, as promised, here are some iterations we are planning for winter.
Remember, this thread will focus on FW NPCs and complexes, for War Zone Control and System Upgrade changes, please refer to this post.
FW COMPLEX CHANGES
After reading the feedback from numerous community sources (had to read this post again to make sure we didn't forget any good point), we acknowledge that Factional Warfare complexes need to be changed and are high in our priority list.
* Capture beacon location: first, we want to move the capture beacon closer to the room entrance (0-10km instead of 60-70km) to promote fights next to the acceleration gate exit point and being able to intercept incoming hostiles more easily.
* Unify capture range: having 10, 20 and 30km range depending on the complex size is confusing and not needed anymore if we move the beacon closer to the room entrance. Thus we would like to have a capture range of 30km for all sized sites, so it's easier to remember for everyone.
* Increase contested range: at the moment an hostile pilot will only contest a capture timer if he is within capture range (whose reach varies depending on the point above). We want to move the contested area to the whole complex range, which would mean as long as hostile pilot is within your room the capture timer would be paused.
* Complex size and name changes: current complex sizes are confusing as some major sites have no acceleration gates, while others do. Plan is to revamp sites to 4 sizes: rookie (only tech 1 frigates allowed, no navy, pirate or tech 2 variant), small (all small ships, including navy, pirate and tech 2 variants - essentially all frigates and destroyers), medium (all cruisers, including navy, pirate and tech 2 variants - battlecruiser variants are not allowed) and large (unrestricted access).
FW COMPLEX NPC CHANGES
We will be talking about complex NPC changes only here - we know FW mission NPCs need to be tackled as well, but for now let's focus on one problem at a time. Before we list the changes, the main activity we see for Factional Warfare is PvP. PvE should not override PvP in this feature, as such the NPCs need to be very specialized to meet the goals you mentioned in this thread.
* NPC attribute revamp: this means two things. First, making sure no faction has an advantage over another. For example, having some factions use missiles while other have turrets is a no go. The other is to make sure we prevent, or at least significantly reduce AFK farming without hampering PvP when it does happen. Current FW complex NPCs will be scrapped and replaced with new ones that have the following characteristics:
* Very low damage output - they can kill you if you stay in the complex without taking care of them for 15 minutes, but their damage potential is so small it won't hamper players if attacked by others while capturing.
* Very high speeds: no matter what your fitting is, they will catch you. No endless Benny Hill music scene anymore.
* No EW: no electronical warfare or any kind, as this would be destabilizing when PvP occurs
* Have Sleeper AI: that means they will change targets according to your threat
* Active tanking: NPCs will have an active tanking according to the complex size they are on to discourage players to tackle larger sites with undersized ships. For example, while Minor sites could have a frigate NPC easily killed in your own frigate, Major could have battlecruiser or battleships NPCs with a active tank extremely difficult to tackle on the same frigate.
Why do the active tanking point matter you say? Because:
* NPCs contest capture timer: as long as there is a NPC in the area the capture timer is paused, just like with an enemy player. Capture timer is only paused when attacking a complex. Defending a complex with NPCs of the same faction would not cause such pause. Coupled with the active tanking point above, it means that if you can't kill the NPC reasonably fast, you can't capture the complex.
* NPC number reduction: currently NPCs spawn by wave of 3-5 on a timer. Thus if you don't kill them in time you can be overrun by a large number of them. That was particularly a problem with EW NPCs, as while a few jamming NPCs is annoying but not a big deal, having 10-15 of them jamming you would prevent you from doing anything. Our goal is to change them to spawn sequentially one at a time, so the next NPC would not arrive until the previous one was killed. Again, PvE should not take over PvP in Factional Warfare.
* NPCs only spawn when no PvP is happening: NPCs spawn at a semi-random period of time, and only when the complex is attacked while there is no defending player. Technically that means NPC prevent AFK farming. NPCs do not warp away when a player from the opposing factions arrives. However, since they have very low damage and no EW, this shouldn't be much of a problem.
* NPC standing aggression revamp: it's currently very blurry to know when NPCs attack you and when they don't. Part of the NPC revamp is to have clear attack rules to know when they are going to attack you or not. A fallout of that is also to make standing gains from PvP / PvE more consistent in FW, as we have a lot of confusion with this as well. We still have to design details on this specific points, but there have been excellent suggestions on this thread we will look into.
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So much yes. :D
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Huh...this actually looks promising.
I'm actually excited about staying in FW now.
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:brilliant:
I support this in the strongest possible terms. Everything about these changes are win on a win cracker.
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*Looks at LDIS's old haunts*
It is possible to make low-sec almost as industrially attractive as null-sec. :eek:
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If you're already in FW, I suggest getting your LP farming done with now. The tier five cash cow won't be around anymore come winter expansion, along with the nigh-effortless 11-digit returns per player that each push has been producing.
Also, now would be a good time to stock up on faction gear obtainable only through LP stores. Prices for, say, Hookbills, are at an all time low. But that will change come winter.
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If you're already in FW, I suggest getting your LP farming done with now.
HELL.NO.
I refuse. I've had a toon in FW almost as long as FW has existed, but I've never fallen to these cheap tactics to farm the system. I simply can't do it, regardless of how needed it may be these days. Ofc, this means that I've been working on funding my toon the old way, and has had financial issues due to that. But I still won't do it.
As for FW as it is now, we all know what a joke it is. I was not to terribly impressed with that one point about capture-beacon control range extending to the whole area (it will simply continue to encourage kiting over any kind of close-combat fit, just like things are now) but otherwise this made me cheer and yell YES at the top of my lungs. I'm seriously going to enjoy FW again once this comes about, I've found myself becoming less and less eager to take part, even so far that the one system I swore I would keep up fell, and I didn't care enough to even act on it.
What I might be doing however, is work up my isk in a different way, then fund my oh-so-obsolete standard T1 gear and hunt down a load of faction crap that none of the people flying it earned legitimately. It's going to be great.
Thanks for sharing this, Sha.
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Not happy with opposition anywhere in a plex meaning the timer stops (oh, the tactics that'll cause), but apart from that it looks good.
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I am quite mitigated about this honestly. The changes seem apparently very nice, like they seemed before Inferno. They also seem to take the exact same route with extremely complicated and convoluted rules, and the more complex the rules, the higher the probability for things to get completely out of control like they did. I find this new extensive and very rigid kind of design trend they seem to use now quite dangerous, like a double-edged sword.
Another question : how do we upgrade the general tier of the warzone ? By upgrading systems ? How many need to be upgraded for the tier to go up ? Or by capturing systems ? How many need to be captured ?
Otherwise it seems quite good overall.
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However I am even more unsatisfied with plex changes. Some of them don't make any sense to me.
* Capture beacon location: first, we want to move the capture beacon closer to the room entrance (0-10km instead of 60-70km) to promote fights next to the acceleration gate exit point and being able to intercept incoming hostiles more easily.
I think it is better, but will also favor blobs entering the plex. Farewell to baiting tactics to catch a lonely prey inside. But I think it is still better that way though. It encourages people to fight, which is the most important.
* Increase contested range: at the moment an hostile pilot will only contest a capture timer if he is within capture range (whose reach varies depending on the point above). We want to move the contested area to the whole complex range, which would mean as long as hostile pilot is within your room the capture timer would be paused.
That sounds unrealistic. There was a whole strategic dimension with the old system where you actually had to be on the beacon to make it run AND to pause it if someone else is also here. It allowed people to stay in the plex and continue to harass the people running the timer even in lower numbers where they had to remain out of range. For example it was not uncommon to see people in stabbers unable to engage a bigger fleet around the timer but harassing them nevertheless. Or groups of long range ships unable to go fight at the timer because of the enemy superiority, but still able to harass them and shoot at them. Now, they can still do that, but the fleet at the timer has to kill them to run their timer...
Which sounds utterly stupid in regards to all the exploits that will inevitably happen : what prevent a lonely nanofit frigate or any costless shit to move around on the grid at full speed just to prevent the people to run the timer, while saying "trolololol you can't catch me you can't run your stupid timer" in local ?
Or even better, I can already see people in cloaked ships sitting somewhere in the plex and preventing it to be run because CCP somehow forgot about that case and did not forbid it, and people waiting for the next patch a few months years later to get that fixed.
Complex size and name changes: current complex sizes are confusing as some major sites have no acceleration gates, while others do. Plan is to revamp sites to 4 sizes: rookie (only tech 1 frigates allowed, no navy, pirate or tech 2 variant), small (all small ships, including navy, pirate and tech 2 variants - essentially all frigates and destroyers), medium (all cruisers, including navy, pirate and tech 2 variants - battlecruiser variants are not allowed) and large (unrestricted access).
Really good idea, except for the medium and large ones : why would people bring BCs in large ones when they can bring BSes, and why would people bring T1 cruisers in medium ones when they can bring faction/T2 ones ?
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OMG!
I AM IN HEAVEN!
A plex for only T1 frigs, and another for T2 frigs and destroyers??
THANK YOU CCP!
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OMG!
I AM IN HEAVEN!
A plex for only T1 frigs, and another for T2 frigs and destroyers??
THANK YOU CCP!
I'd love them more if they gave us one for T1 cruisers and below as well. Little point breaking out the good'oll Thorax if all the enemies in your plex size use faction and T2, you know...
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Granting LP for defensive plexing is probably the best fix to the FW system on that entire list.
The rookie plex idea is also frankly win. People forget newbies also come into FW to try the ropes of pvp and there's nothing more discouraging than having to face Daredevils/Drams/Dessies in a T1 frig.
Also the moment I try to leave FW, CCP decides to make it awesome again in the next patch.
Damn it.
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OMG!
I AM IN HEAVEN!
A plex for only T1 frigs, and another for T2 frigs and destroyers??
THANK YOU CCP!
I'd love them more if they gave us one for T1 cruisers and below as well. Little point breaking out the good'oll Thorax if all the enemies in your plex size use faction and T2, you know...
Probably worth providing it as Feedback in the thread (or hopefully they are reading this).
I think it could be interesting to have the T2 Frigate Complex also be T1 Cruisers. I realize they are not exactly on par, but I think it could lead to interesting fights. A mixed Inty, AF, EAF gang roams around hitting complexes and runs into a balanced T1 Cruiser gang with a mix of Line, EW, and even Logis (for Gallente & Caldari this is really straightforward). But that is silly.
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OMG!
I AM IN HEAVEN!
A plex for only T1 frigs, and another for T2 frigs and destroyers??
THANK YOU CCP!
I'd love them more if they gave us one for T1 cruisers and below as well. Little point breaking out the good'oll Thorax if all the enemies in your plex size use faction and T2, you know...
Probably worth providing it as Feedback in the thread (or hopefully they are reading this).
I think it could be interesting to have the T2 Frigate Complex also be T1 Cruisers. I realize they are not exactly on par, but I think it could lead to interesting fights. A mixed Inty, AF, EAF gang roams around hitting complexes and runs into a balanced T1 Cruiser gang with a mix of Line, EW, and even Logis (for Gallente & Caldari this is really straightforward). But that is silly.
Cruisers murder AFs, sadly. That is why the previous plexing incarnation saw AFs used very rarely. Why fly a 30m+ isk AF when you can fly a 6m isk cruiser that does everything better, and easily kills that same 30m isk AF?
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Opposition stopping timer while anywhere in a timer's complex room is dangerous. They'll need to disable cloaking from affecting the timer, or it will instigate a whole new wave of AFK cloaker whines.
Not really a fan of the NPCs basically being paper weights, as the DPS they suggest will probably be ignorable to everything unless there is some kind of scaling upwards damage value over time. I am much more inclined to making the NPCs a useful ally to have in a fight, but they seem to dislike anything involving NPC involvement with players.
I don't understand the cynosural jammer mechanics in the context of FW. A Tier 5 system would be a major stronghold, presumably, and people fighting to claim it can wait 1 measely hour for the cynosural jammer to wear off before they bring in their supercapital blob? Not to mention people can just pre-stock capitals in systems they know will become Tier 5 and could be a problem for them later.
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Also the moment I try to leave FW, CCP decides to make it awesome again in the next patch.
Damn it.
Fucking tell me about it :|
At any rate, I saw the first bit about upgrading systems earlier...however, I only just saw the NPC/plex changes for the first time, which has annoyed me since 2008/09...damn, finally.
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Opposition stopping timer while anywhere in a timer's complex room is dangerous. They'll need to disable cloaking from affecting the timer, or it will instigate a whole new wave of AFK cloaker whines.
This.
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I don't understand the cynosural jammer mechanics in the context of FW. A Tier 5 system would be a major stronghold, presumably, and people fighting to claim it can wait 1 measely hour for the cynosural jammer to wear off before they bring in their supercapital blob? Not to mention people can just pre-stock capitals in systems they know will become Tier 5 and could be a problem for them later.
1. It makes a number of assets in that system more secure.
Example: You have a POCO or a POS coming out of reinforced at 08:00. You spool up a cyno jammer at roughly 06:50. Attackers will have to use gates, and any fleet they deploy to finish off the POCO/POS will be unable to light cynos during the fight. But since you live in the system (and control the cyno spooling), you can have your cap ships already in place. If the enemy waits for the cyno jammer to wear off, then you'll have repped the POCO/POS already, and they'll have to reinforce it all over again.
If the enemy comes in before your cyno has finished spooling, that's in itself a tactical advantage. They've played their hand and committed their cap ships to a fight without the possibility of surprise reinforcements. You can decline the fight or escalate to your advantage.
2. It gives the owning group an advantage when beseiging assets in that system.
Cyno fields can be used offensively to cover fleets that are bringing an enemy POCO/POS into reinforced mode. Those fleets can carry on their work without worrying about hot drops, and just watch neighboring systems with scouts.
As an aside, it does give FW groups a legitimate shot at controlling local moon goo, should any be well-organized and motivated enough to try it.
Of course, to do so, they'd have to win occupancy from the enemy militia.
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My feelings about the cyno jammer is that it is "to little, to late" - that is, capitals and supercapitals have become so proliferated at this point that it will be little trouble for people to move spares into a system beforehand and leave them logged off/docked up in preparation for a battle.
Specifically, I fail to see why nullsec alliances, currently acting so upset about their ability to jump through staging systems being potentially curtailed, couldn't log off 5+ supers in those couple systems and make mincemeat of any cyno jammers anyone dares to put up.
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Some things might be improvement, but still lots of things wrong about this change. My primary objection is (and always has been):
It is stupid to defend something that isn't under attack
Having to defend something that doesn't need a defender other than 'being present' and leaving the defender nothing to do will always lead to alt play. Alt play will lead to gunless frigates and non-fights and a straight numbers superiority. It is not rocket science...
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Cruisers murder AFs, sadly. That is why the previous plexing incarnation saw AFs used very rarely. Why fly a 30m+ isk AF when you can fly a 6m isk cruiser that does everything better, and easily kills that same 30m isk AF?
I'm not sure this holds true anymore. In the past, my FW toon used to fly Thorax'es in a variety of fits due to highly positive cost-vs-effect - The cruiser was relatively inexpensive, I know how it performs in most situations, it's very versatile, and I knew as a rule of thumb that I could engage frigates, faction frigates, AF's, interceptors, EAF's, destroyers, cruisers, some BC's and some Hac's and recons and such with a moderate to good chance of winning, or atl kill a few enemies before it dropped.
The last few times I've flown it in FW I've found AF's and faction frigs nearly impossible to kill because fittings that would own them hard some months ago can't even land a single hit these days - I especially remember engaging a Dramiel on a gate at point-blank with blasters utilizing null (Used to mean dead Dramiel in the past) and I was forced to de-aggro and jump because even sicking drones on him, pointing him, webbing him and shooting with null I couldn't land a hit.
I know they boosted AF's, possibly faction frigs too, but I can't remember anything about buffing their signature radius down to nonexistence.
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Cruisers murder AFs, sadly. That is why the previous plexing incarnation saw AFs used very rarely. Why fly a 30m+ isk AF when you can fly a 6m isk cruiser that does everything better, and easily kills that same 30m isk AF?
Only because the metagame has changed. Used to be much easier to kill cruisers, but that was before every cruiser worth flying fitted a full flight of warrior II's and a med neut.
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I don't understand the cynosural jammer mechanics in the context of FW. A Tier 5 system would be a major stronghold, presumably, and people fighting to claim it can wait 1 measely hour for the cynosural jammer to wear off before they bring in their supercapital blob? Not to mention people can just pre-stock capitals in systems they know will become Tier 5 and could be a problem for them later.
1. It makes a number of assets in that system more secure.
Example: You have a POCO or a POS coming out of reinforced at 08:00. You spool up a cyno jammer at roughly 06:50. Attackers will have to use gates, and any fleet they deploy to finish off the POCO/POS will be unable to light cynos during the fight. But since you live in the system (and control the cyno spooling), you can have your cap ships already in place. If the enemy waits for the cyno jammer to wear off, then you'll have repped the POCO/POS already, and they'll have to reinforce it all over again.
If the enemy comes in before your cyno has finished spooling, that's in itself a tactical advantage. They've played their hand and committed their cap ships to a fight without the possibility of surprise reinforcements. You can decline the fight or escalate to your advantage.
2. It gives the owning group an advantage when beseiging assets in that system.
Cyno fields can be used offensively to cover fleets that are bringing an enemy POCO/POS into reinforced mode. Those fleets can carry on their work without worrying about hot drops, and just watch neighboring systems with scouts.
As an aside, it does give FW groups a legitimate shot at controlling local moon goo, should any be well-organized and motivated enough to try it.
Of course, to do so, they'd have to win occupancy from the enemy militia.
I understand the tactical value of this, but there is flaw in my opinion in the system. Since you can shoot the cyno, and since the cyno jammer will be deployed around the system hub, it is not really hard to my eyes to break it down and then make your cap ships come. The main issue is that you don't have a POS to defend your cyno jammer. Of course, if you have caps ready around, and not the enemy, why not yeah. Or do they plan to let players also deploy POSes around the hub as well ? Sounds weird to me.
Tbh I feel like Esna, it is not enough. It also sounds very complicated and thus subject to exploits and "anti-game" tactics to me. Maybe it will work, maybe not, but I am very reserved about that.
Cruisers murder AFs, sadly. That is why the previous plexing incarnation saw AFs used very rarely. Why fly a 30m+ isk AF when you can fly a 6m isk cruiser that does everything better, and easily kills that same 30m isk AF?
I'm not sure this holds true anymore. In the past, my FW toon used to fly Thorax'es in a variety of fits due to highly positive cost-vs-effect - The cruiser was relatively inexpensive, I know how it performs in most situations, it's very versatile, and I knew as a rule of thumb that I could engage frigates, faction frigates, AF's, interceptors, EAF's, destroyers, cruisers, some BC's and some Hac's and recons and such with a moderate to good chance of winning, or atl kill a few enemies before it dropped.
The last few times I've flown it in FW I've found AF's and faction frigs nearly impossible to kill because fittings that would own them hard some months ago can't even land a single hit these days - I especially remember engaging a Dramiel on a gate at point-blank with blasters utilizing null (Used to mean dead Dramiel in the past) and I was forced to de-aggro and jump because even sicking drones on him, pointing him, webbing him and shooting with null I couldn't land a hit.
I know they boosted AF's, possibly faction frigs too, but I can't remember anything about buffing their signature radius down to nonexistence.
It depends of a lot of things. It depends of the ships involved. Not long ago I killed a thorax in my vengeance without any effort while being also aggroed by a crow. It was easy, shoot the drones, then take care of the thorax at point blank range to get under the guns.
Against a rupture however, I would have had serious issues, mostly due to neuts.
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A Thorax is an easy kill, generally (Poor wolf only has 2 mids, no web for me!) but a Rupture or Arbitrator is another story altogether... which are the 2 cruisers everyone flies.
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A Thorax is an easy kill, generally (Poor wolf only has 2 mids, no web for me!) but a Rupture or Arbitrator is another story altogether... which are the 2 cruisers everyone flies.
And everyone flies those because most other cruisers die to AF's and frigs?
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Opposition stopping timer while anywhere in a timer's complex room is dangerous. They'll need to disable cloaking from affecting the timer, or it will instigate a whole new wave of AFK cloaker whines.
This.
Cloaked ships don't affect the timer already.
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I know they boosted AF's, possibly faction frigs too, but I can't remember anything about buffing their signature radius down to nonexistence.
-50% Signature Radius increase from active MWD. Not non-existence, but they don't balloon up as much anymore.
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I can't see the part where they say that they will rebalancing the plex NPCs.
I assume that it must be in there somewhere, since without that some factions will still have an easier time in FW than others, with predictable consequences.
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I can't see the part where they say that they will rebalancing the plex NPCs.
I assume that it must be in there somewhere, since without that some factions will still have an easier time in FW than others, with predictable consequences.
FW COMPLEX NPC CHANGES
We will be talking about complex NPC changes only here - we know FW mission NPCs need to be tackled as well, but for now let's focus on one problem at a time. Before we list the changes, the main activity we see for Factional Warfare is PvP. PvE should not override PvP in this feature, as such the NPCs need to be very specialized to meet the goals you mentioned in this thread.
* NPC attribute revamp: this means two things. First, making sure no faction has an advantage over another. For example, having some factions use missiles while other have turrets is a no go. The other is to make sure we prevent, or at least significantly reduce AFK farming without hampering PvP when it does happen. Current FW complex NPCs will be scrapped and replaced with new ones that have the following characteristics:
* Very low damage output - they can kill you if you stay in the complex without taking care of them for 15 minutes, but their damage potential is so small it won't hamper players if attacked by others while capturing.
* Very high speeds: no matter what your fitting is, they will catch you. No endless Benny Hill music scene anymore.
* No EW: no electronical warfare or any kind, as this would be destabilizing when PvP occurs
* Have Sleeper AI: that means they will change targets according to your threat
* Active tanking: NPCs will have an active tanking according to the complex size they are on to discourage players to tackle larger sites with undersized ships. For example, while Minor sites could have a frigate NPC easily killed in your own frigate, Major could have battlecruiser or battleships NPCs with a active tank extremely difficult to tackle on the same frigate.
Why do the active tanking point matter you say? Because:
* NPCs contest capture timer: as long as there is a NPC in the area the capture timer is paused, just like with an enemy player. Capture timer is only paused when attacking a complex. Defending a complex with NPCs of the same faction would not cause such pause. Coupled with the active tanking point above, it means that if you can't kill the NPC reasonably fast, you can't capture the complex.
* NPC number reduction: currently NPCs spawn by wave of 3-5 on a timer. Thus if you don't kill them in time you can be overrun by a large number of them. That was particularly a problem with EW NPCs, as while a few jamming NPCs is annoying but not a big deal, having 10-15 of them jamming you would prevent you from doing anything. Our goal is to change them to spawn sequentially one at a time, so the next NPC would not arrive until the previous one was killed. Again, PvE should not take over PvP in Factional Warfare.
* NPCs only spawn when no PvP is happening: NPCs spawn at a semi-random period of time, and only when the complex is attacked while there is no defending player. Technically that means NPC prevent AFK farming. NPCs do not warp away when a player from the opposing factions arrives. However, since they have very low damage and no EW, this shouldn't be much of a problem.
* NPC standing aggression revamp: it's currently very blurry to know when NPCs attack you and when they don't. Part of the NPC revamp is to have clear attack rules to know when they are going to attack you or not. A fallout of that is also to make standing gains from PvP / PvE more consistent in FW, as we have a lot of confusion with this as well. We still have to design details on this specific points, but there have been excellent suggestions on this thread we will look into.
Bolded the bits of particular importance.
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I guess I'll have to change my name to Eyeless McBlinderson
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:D
I was wondering how you missed the entire second post.
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I guess I'll have to change my name to Eyeless McBlinderson
You'r too much into your role.
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While the ideas laid out are welcome hugely welcome, I have this nagging feeling that they're underestimating the will of players to find some way to produce reward with as little risk as possible.
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So... still no real victories to achieve? Hmm :|
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We still have the original goal that we haven't managed to fulfill. You know what it is.
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It depends of a lot of things. It depends of the ships involved. Not long ago I killed a thorax in my vengeance without any effort while being also aggroed by a crow. It was easy, shoot the drones, then take care of the thorax at point blank range to get under the guns.
Against a rupture however, I would have had serious issues, mostly due to neuts.
A Thorax is an easy kill, generally (Poor wolf only has 2 mids, no web for me!) but a Rupture or Arbitrator is another story altogether... which are the 2 cruisers everyone flies.
If this holds true, then things really has changed. The last engagement I had with a Vengeance in a Thorax was an easy victory for me - get in range, point web guns drones, wait for a bit... pop. Loot. Onwards with life.
If the Rupture and Arbitrator are pretty much the only favor of the month ships left and the rest are obsolete, well... I don't know what to think of that, honestly.
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It depends of a lot of things. It depends of the ships involved. Not long ago I killed a thorax in my vengeance without any effort while being also aggroed by a crow. It was easy, shoot the drones, then take care of the thorax at point blank range to get under the guns.
Against a rupture however, I would have had serious issues, mostly due to neuts.
The advent of oversized ASB AFs and Frigates has actually resulted in a counter for decked out antifrigate cruisers that rely on Neuts.
Granted, they're not an easy win, but at least it's now possible to deal with Ruptures and such in small frigate swarms without taking horrendous losses.
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It depends of a lot of things. It depends of the ships involved. Not long ago I killed a thorax in my vengeance without any effort while being also aggroed by a crow. It was easy, shoot the drones, then take care of the thorax at point blank range to get under the guns.
Against a rupture however, I would have had serious issues, mostly due to neuts.
A Thorax is an easy kill, generally (Poor wolf only has 2 mids, no web for me!) but a Rupture or Arbitrator is another story altogether... which are the 2 cruisers everyone flies.
If this holds true, then things really has changed. The last engagement I had with a Vengeance in a Thorax was an easy victory for me - get in range, point web guns drones, wait for a bit... pop. Loot. Onwards with life.
If the Rupture and Arbitrator are pretty much the only favor of the month ships left and the rest are obsolete, well... I don't know what to think of that, honestly.
They have always been to my knowledge since at least the nanonerf and NOS nerf. Thoraxes, as good as they are (I use them a lot too), are better against cruisers than frigates. Though of course it works against frigs, it is dangerous since you don't have neuts to help you shut down their tank, engines, or even their weapons for these that need cap...
An AB vengeance can tank a web hurricane without neuts if you orbit at 500m (I tried that, it worked, even if not for too long and ofc, only a single webbed hurricane). I noticed that I can still make the tank run even against 1 small neut, even if it becomes very, very painful (lol cap regen bonus...). Once I also killed an arbitrator that only had one small neut. It was painful but it worked. That's what the vengeance is good at, killing or tackling things bigger than it is. I wouldnt try to engage a thorax in a blarpy or another similar AF without an active tank, tbh. May work, but sounds dangerous.
It depends of a lot of things. It depends of the ships involved. Not long ago I killed a thorax in my vengeance without any effort while being also aggroed by a crow. It was easy, shoot the drones, then take care of the thorax at point blank range to get under the guns.
Against a rupture however, I would have had serious issues, mostly due to neuts.
The advent of oversized ASB AFs and Frigates has actually resulted in a counter for decked out antifrigate cruisers that rely on Neuts.
Granted, they're not an easy win, but at least it's now possible to deal with Ruptures and such in small frigate swarms without taking horrendous losses.
Yeah now, just take a hawk and go kill neut cruisers happily I guess. >.>
Or anything else for that matters anyway. They dont even have a counter now. They are superior to almost everything of their size and T1 cruisers too.
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Or anything else for that matters anyway. They dont even have a counter now. They are superior to almost everything of their size and T1 cruisers too.
Eh, catching them in-between reload cycles, or using anything that has high Alpha will generally result in the Death of said Hawk. I've actually had some extremely close fights with Incursus tag-teams against Hawks + ASB Merlins where we've (nearly) come out on top simply because we're not quite so reliant on cap boosters. They're not quite the overpowered auto-winning module that people tend to paint them as.
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In very small grops / solo they seem to be...
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I was gone all summer, which meant I had missed out on the announcement of new modules. The day I returned, my corp picked me up again and had me travel to some remote region of Metropolis where the Minmatar were apparently being overrun by a nullsec horde.
So, I first ran into ASBs in space without knowing a thing about them.
My initial encounter was with a Merlin with an ASB. I was thinking that this guy had an incredible tank, maybe drugs and boosters. Fortunately, I myself was in a dual-rep Incursus. We blasted each other for five minutes or so, and when he had to reload his ASB, he melted fast.
The next encounter was with an ASB cyclone which was tackled by a squad of us in t/d condors, with myself in a comet for DPS. It was caught off the gate by a handful of frigates and ended up just tanking us until the ASB had to reload. Then it died.
After that engagement, I finally learned what ASBs were. I then watched as corpies in dual-sebo thrashers started alpha'ing ASB frigates one at a time. Pop, pop pop.
ASBs can be extremely useful and potent. But even in solo or small-gang situations, they're not wholly dominant. I think they're still working themselves into the meta, and pilots will eventually learn how to plan for and deal with them.
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I don't think single ASB fits are that bad to deal with. The real problem is when they have a second ASB to cover them while the first one is reloading.
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I've used MASBs on frigs quite a bit and have toyed around with dual MASB fits on frigs and dessies as well. They can be very useful, making them a viable tanking choice, but they are not by any means a win button.
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I've used MASBs on frigs quite a bit and have toyed around with dual MASB fits on frigs and dessies as well. They can be very useful, making them a viable tanking choice, but they are not by any means a win button.
Frigate 1v1 - how to stop dual-ASB fit?
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Kite -- easy, because dual MASB leaves you with fuck-all options for range control, and most boats you can fit them on beg for a blaster fit -- then fire into the massive, massive EM/Thermal hole. Even in the worst case, they'll run out of cap boosters eventually..
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Just a note, Merlins usually don't have a noteworthy resist holes when fitted for active tanking. Dual MASB is fun, but it's no I-WIN fit and I consider it more a bait fit for a group than a solo fit.
Personally I've met a blaster-Incursus that I wasn't able to kill with a blaster dual-MASB merlin. Wasn't able to break his tank, he wasn't able to break mine, with the difference that I had to disengage (he had no point fitted) as I ran out of charges whereas I assume that he could've gone on for quite some time as he was running some 'hold your ground forever'-plex fit.
I derped a bit in the fight, messed up my speed/range and killed my damage application from time to time, so I'm not sure it'd have worked a second time.
Regarding ASBs I think dual X-L are the problem, because they are inherently better than their other counterparts on their own. An X-L on its own is much better than two large, whereas two medium are the same as one large. Fitting an X-L over two large costs the same CPU and 200 more powergrid - 200 powergrid on cruisers upwards for one med slot and an increase in performance is an okay deal, even when it leads to the need of fitting rigs and smaller main guns.
Raw 'defence' EFT numbers on standard shield profile (Caracal):
[spoiler]
- 1 XL : 345
- 2 Large : 276
- 1 Large : 142
- 2 Medium : 141
- 1 Medium : 74
- 2 Small : 79
[/spoiler]
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Interesting.
However how can an incursus tank forever with a dual rep setup ? Sounds to me that a lot of things have changed if you can run 2 reps, or even only one, for more than 10 secs without killing your cap... Cap boosters maybe ?
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Interesting.
However how can an incursus tank forever with a dual rep setup ? Sounds to me that a lot of things have changed if you can run 2 reps, or even only one, for more than 10 secs without killing your cap... Cap boosters maybe ?
Yes, a dual-rep Incursus with a cap booster can be cap stable for well over three minutes if they're not being neuted. They are quite literally the most difficult t1 frigate to kill, way above and beyond any Dual MASB fit frigate.
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2012.09.05 13:35:00
Victim: Sleepless Town
Corp: The Time Lord Empire
Alliance: Unknown
Faction: Caldari State
Destroyed: Incursus
System: Lasleinur
Security: 0,2
Damage Taken: 35833
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"Temporary" cyno jamming is fail, and this will be worked-around with ease.
If you want to give the defenders an edge leave the damn thing on permanently, and then make the fun gameplay changes around the method it is to be destroyed or disabled.
This of course all goes back to the tired old mantra of capitals being broken, and capitals in FW being double-broken.
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I can't see them putting in perma-jammers, as this would only encourage further bloc-forming among a single side of a given warzone - not, I am sure, what they want to encourage. Then again, given CCP's record of forseeng the obviously predictable results of the past rounds of FW changes...
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Interesting.
However how can an incursus tank forever with a dual rep setup ? Sounds to me that a lot of things have changed if you can run 2 reps, or even only one, for more than 10 secs without killing your cap... Cap boosters maybe ?
Yes, a dual-rep Incursus with a cap booster can be cap stable for well over three minutes if they're not being neuted. They are quite literally the most difficult t1 frigate to kill, way above and beyond any Dual MASB fit frigate.
I see. Things that disgust me even more of what pvp has become, all about always more excesses and escalations, but thats mostly personnal.
That's why I loved the nano-nerf, it was about nerfing all the speed and nano excesses. That's what I loved with the stacking penalties as well. No they seem to have the opposite mindset.
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It's not really CCP's fault.
The game itself keeps getting better and better and players richer and richer. And with that, more and more risk-averse, forcing the rest to compensate by... well, we know where this goes.
"Everything was better in the old days" is highly inaccurate and cliché, but I *STILL* recall fondly the times people were more eager to risk their T1 junk they could hardly afford to lose, than today when people are terrified of losing their Faction-pimped T3 that they can in fact replace several times over.
The ultimate issue lies with player mentality and gaming mores. I curse the spineless risk-aversion tendencies with all my heart, but there is little to be done with it. We will simply have to adapt and cope.
Or quit, alternatively.
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I can't see them putting in perma-jammers, as this would only encourage further bloc-forming among a single side of a given warzone - not, I am sure, what they want to encourage. Then again, given CCP's record of forseeng the obviously predictable results of the past rounds of FW changes...
CCP has stated multiple times that FW is supposed to be a sort of 'pvp light' on the capsuleer road of moving to low sec and eventually null-sec.
This is why they have restrictions for complexes.
I think its ridiculous for capital blobs to have any part of playing in the shallow end of the kiddie-pool, a kiddie-pool set up by CCP.
They should follow-through with their gameplay design logic to its natural extents here, or remove 'all' restrictions from FW in general.
Either it's PVP light or its regular PVP and the gloves should come off.
Half-assed is no way to go about it.
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Being constantly half ass is CCP new game design policies. Either with unfinished/unpolished add-ons, or either with new measures that do not try to actually fix the issues at hand and be innovative, but that rather seem to be here only to make
lobbies players happy.
It's not really CCP's fault.
The game itself keeps getting better and better and players richer and richer. And with that, more and more risk-averse, forcing the rest to compensate by... well, we know where this goes.
"Everything was better in the old days" is highly inaccurate and cliché, but I *STILL* recall fondly the times people were more eager to risk their T1 junk they could hardly afford to lose, than today when people are terrified of losing their Faction-pimped T3 that they can in fact replace several times over.
The ultimate issue lies with player mentality and gaming mores. I curse the spineless risk-aversion tendencies with all my heart, but there is little to be done with it. We will simply have to adapt and cope.
It is cliché. The best times where just after the nano nerf imho. Before it was all about exploits and still regulating excesses that came from the early game and needed iteration after iteration to polish the system.
However I still think the tech and pimp escalation is utterly stupid. We can say what we want but it is basically the same thing than in MMOs like WoW with their T1, T2,..., Tn+1.
Or quit, alternatively.
Yeah, I did that eventually.
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It is cliché. The best times where just after the nano nerf imho. Before it was all about exploits and still regulating excesses that came from the early game and needed iteration after iteration to polish the system.
However I still think the tech and pimp escalation is utterly stupid. We can say what we want but it is basically the same thing than in MMOs like WoW with their T1, T2,..., Tn+1.
The best time to be in the game is now, imo. With the Frigate rebalances and eventually all ship types being rebalanced means that we don't see the same five ships over and over. Getting in a frigate to pvp has never been easier and a wide variety to choose from, this'll only become better once the Logi and EW frigates rebalance come Winter.
I'd say the tech escalation between WoW(/SWTOR) and Eve are nothing alike. I've played all three and while I've never gotten 'epic' stuff in WoW, the stats stacking in SWTOR meant even at Level50 if you didn't have the highest tier pvp gear you barely scratched your opponent. Where as you can, and people do, take tech 1 frigs out and murder t2/faction ships.
Back on Topic:
Looking forward to these changes to FW. Not having to worry about NPCs in defensive plexs (and people actively defensive plexing!) means things just got a little easier for me. The NPC change also helps with the people who have high standings to the opposing team and don't get shot by NPCs when plexing.
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The best time to be in the game is now, imo. With the Frigate rebalances and eventually all ship types being rebalanced means that we don't see the same five ships over and over. Getting in a frigate to pvp has never been easier and a wide variety to choose from, this'll only become better once the Logi and EW frigates rebalance come Winter.
Yeah, that's probably the good side of it.
I'd say the tech escalation between WoW(/SWTOR) and Eve are nothing alike. I've played all three and while I've never gotten 'epic' stuff in WoW, the stats stacking in SWTOR meant even at Level50 if you didn't have the highest tier pvp gear you barely scratched your opponent.
Funny, I have had a series of fights with pvp stuffed friends in SWTOR when I only had my pve lvl 50 set and won 2 out of 3 fights with them. It was, of course, partly due to the fact that I had a good class, but still.
Eventually though, I agree that there is a clear difference of level between epic stuff and the basic stuff. And I bet it is even higher in WoW (which I havent played, have only heard a lot about). My point is that I find eve quite similar in that fashion, so I disagree, but I know we are not a lot to think that way, especially since it is more subtle and less "obvious in your face" with Eve.
Where as you can, and people do, take tech 1 frigs out and murder t2/faction ships.
I am not speaking about possibilities and exceptions. As I said above, I was able to overcome epic stuffed people with basic stuff in other MMOs as well. It doesn't mean it is the standard.
Back on Topic:
Looking forward to these changes to FW. Not having to worry about NPCs in defensive plexs (and people actively defensive plexing!) means things just got a little easier for me.
That's what I don't understand in their logic. They say at the same time that people will have to pay attention and be active to run plexes, and yet they say that NPCs are irrelevant or negligible. Where is the logic in that ?
It feels like they are walking a thin line of a fragile balance between NPCs able to prevent people from afk running plexes and NPCs not powerful enough to threaten pvp in said plexes. :bash:
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What I'd like to see is a bloody timer reset when the last button-pusher warps out. I suspect it'll curtail the hordes of no-risk LP farmers a fair bit more than most of the other changes.
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Sheesh, guys, fetch a towel, you're bittervetting all over the place. :roll:
@Jev: Either that or automatic decontesting to zero over time if no one's present.
@NPCs: Their mere presence is enough to prevent afk farming as they contest the plex. If you don't kill them you can't get your LP. This means that medium and major complexes can't be run by farming frigs anymore. Speed tanking is supposed to cease working, too.
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Sheesh, guys, fetch a towel, you're bittervetting all over the place. :roll:
Your opinion has been noted.
As for this topic, as previously stated I'm rather happy to see all this, steps in the right direction for sure. Only thing that would be great now is some form of capital limitation in FW space ala perma-jammers, and a scale-back-to-start on timers if no-one runs complexes, likely with an accelerated counter when someone actively defends. Thus allowing you to defend contested systems for LP, or leave the complex to count back down on it's own if you can't/won't finish it on your own.
Oh, and the mentioned T1 cruisers and below only type of complex like they will do for frigates, to make T1 cruisers worth something in FW.
Other than these points, I'm rather happy about this. ill be interesting to see how things change come winter.
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Oh, and the mentioned T1 cruisers and below only type of complex like they will do for frigates, to make T1 cruisers worth something in FW.
This was my first reaction, too, but I'm willing to wait on juicy new stats for the Winter cruiser rebalancing. Of course a 10 man T2 gang will outclass a 10 man T1 gang, but fights aren't going to happen based on equal numbers alone. Although it will mean a lot more Falcons - but let's see how ECM revamp is going to pan out.
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Sheesh, guys, fetch a towel, you're bittervetting all over the place. :roll:
I calls em likes I sees em. 8)
Thread is for opinions on the FW iteration.
While a lot of promising changes CCP continues to re-arrange deck chairs on the titanic with the multitude of broken and unsolved core pvp issues. I bitch because I care and I've loved and sweated for this game for years.
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I have no opinion on the mechanics of the cyno issue because I don't fly capitals and very rarely have found myself on grid with them (and not once in FW). Having the jamming function resident in a defensible/destructible structure separate from the plexes and ihubs would be a neat addition though.
What I'd like to see is a bloody timer reset when the last button-pusher warps out. I suspect it'll curtail the hordes of no-risk LP farmers a fair bit more than most of the other changes.
Hell yes. The natural state for the button should be zero seconds on the timer.
restrictions for complexes
capital blobs
I don't follow. Capitals can only deploy inside the minority of complexes that are unrestricted. Suppose banning them from the FW systems altogether would prevent the threat of capital blobbing, such as it is, but I think the plex restrictions already accomplish the goal of channelizing and restricting PVP along the desired lines.
And, for the record, playing in the kiddie pool is extremely fun--as much if not more fun than swimming in the nudist lagoon of nullsec.
While a lot of promising changes CCP continues to re-arrange deck chairs on the titanic
ehrmagerd eev os daieeng?!?
:lol:
Thread is for opinions on the FW iteration.
Yea, including the bitter opinions.
vOv I calls em like I sees em.
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Oh, and the mentioned T1 cruisers and below only type of complex like they will do for frigates, to make T1 cruisers worth something in FW.
This was my first reaction, too, but I'm willing to wait on juicy new stats for the Winter cruiser rebalancing. Of course a 10 man T2 gang will outclass a 10 man T1 gang, but fights aren't going to happen based on equal numbers alone. Although it will mean a lot more Falcons - but let's see how ECM revamp is going to pan out.
As someone who's likely not to get involved in FW, take my opinion with as much salt/sugar as you'd like, but I think the "rookie plexes" idea should be expanded, and that plexes should be segregated into two groups for each 'size': restricted, and unrestricted (borrowing old plex terms just for simplicity, limited/unlimited would work well enough). Restricted plexes act like these "rookie" plexes: Basic T1 hulls of accepted sizes only. No faction, no T2. Just T1. Unrestricted would be, well, unrestricted in this sense: any hull of the appropriate size would be allowed inside.
The lack of a "T1-only" plex for cruiser-and-larger ships just seems like a Not Very Good Idea to me in general. If they're going to spend time rebalancing the things it seems even worse; rebalancing isn't always enough to get people to use something if the T2 or faction variations are still that much better.
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And, for the record, playing in the kiddie pool is extremely fun--as much if not more fun than swimming in the nudist lagoon of nullsec.
I think you missed my point in that I'm a supporter of the "kiddie pool" idea in a big way, and I just think they are dropping the ball on this with the current mechanics. It's not about one type of PVP being better than another it's about all of them being rewarding in their own ways to different skill levels, and encouraging / discouraging specific gameplay to reinforce a special area for younger players, and grow the subscriber base.
The current FW setup makes it impossible for subcap fleets of larger numbers to engage without hotdrop super bukake bonanza. You better believe if they removed capitals from FW you guys would be getting huge subcap fleet fights of -just- the sort that they like to promote in the advertising. Pilots are gunshy to roll the dice because they know lurking behind every fight is potential for stupid and instant escalation. This is fine and should be ok in null, not in FW.
And building subscriber base should be of the utmost right now for CCP.
You people just wait until DUST completely bombs and those millions spent on development do not get repaid. That last round of layoffs will look like nothing.
I also don't see how being snarky is contributing to the discussion, so maybe tone it down?
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:yar: Snark for snark is the way it's done. c/d? Just defending the boss. CEO's attack dog and all. Generally though I think the bittervet mindset and identity are poisonous so I'm apt to oppose both and defend those who do the same.
As for subcap pwnage fest and the consequences of caps in lowsec FW, the way you described it makes sense. I'd be onboard for full cyno jamming in the warzone.
Why do you assess DUST to be set for complete failure?
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People familiar with it may have other gripes, but the biggest issue is that it's based around a persistent universe, hopefully getting people to play for a long time, invest in it, etc.
There are gamers like that. They play on PCs. The console business model is based around churning out shiny after shiny to get players to buy. The result of the business model is that the player based is made up of people who want to jump from shiny to shiny.
tl;dr console players don't have the attention span to make the game a success (gross generalization).
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Well, the PS3 exclusive last only 12 months after release, right? I think we'll eventually have DUST on PC.
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:yar: Snark for snark is the way it's done. c/d? Just defending the boss. CEO's attack dog and all. Generally though I think the bittervet mindset and identity are poisonous so I'm apt to oppose both and defend those who do the same.
As for subcap pwnage fest and the consequences of caps in lowsec FW, the way you described it makes sense. I'd be onboard for full cyno jamming in the warzone.
Why do you assess DUST to be set for complete failure?
No worries mate :)
"bomb" is a broad term but a few things stack the deck against the game in a big way
1. PS3 exclusive for consoles cuts out more than 50% of console market, and millions of FPS players.
2. The PS3 multiplayer experience is generally garbage. Inviting friends, forming groups, and all being on the same audio can be tiresome and is often outright broken. Compare the xbox live multiplayer to ps3. For a highly social, complicated, and by necessity hierarchical game with strategy and the need for effective organization, the PS3 is the absolute last console you want to be doing this sort of thing with.
3. Console players (generalization here) are finicky and have comparatively short gaming attention spans to PC players. PC games can last for years and grow in reputation and dedication, but console games ALL have extremely short shelf-life, and shooters shorter than many others. Yes the die-hards stick around, but after a few months the online population of most console games falls off a cliff. This bodes poorly for one that is supposedly highly tied to a concurrent PC game with a more stable player base. Of course if the 'connection' between the two is more cosmetic then it won't be that critical.
But try hopping on most console FPS games a year or so later and seeing how busy they are. There are a few exceptions but this does not have a HALO / Call of Duty budget or following. Mid-tier shooters fall off a population cliff after a few months.
4. 'too complicated' for typical FPS console market. COD / HALO work because you jump on with random team or a few friends, run around, and kill the other people. Even then it's difficult to stand playing with random people. This game has far more planning, building, and complexity. It will be super, super awesome for about 1/5 of the FPS players, the other 100,000 14-year olds screaming 'faggot' into the microphone and trying to teabag your corpse will go elsewhere.
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The problem is if they take it to the PC while the PS3 is active, computer players will vastly outskill any PS3 player. This is a function of hardware limitations, the ceiling is very low for console players. If they ever plan to move to the PC, why not do it at the launch to an already-loyal crowd? Their reasoning was to tap into a new pool of players, instead of overtaxing the existing one - I think; someone might need to find a quote for that.
Console games in general have a vastly shorter life expectancy and longevity than PC games because they are incredibly rigid and unmoving. The sequential Halo evolution (1, 2, 3, 4, etc) is the best example of how console games thrive. DUST 514 is proposing something that is entirely antithesis to the nature of consoles. What will it do when the PS3 is phased out (in the next year or two)? Rewrite the code for a new console every few years?
Things like that have made me leery about D514's survival rate. I can see it doing great at launch for a while, but as the aging cycle of consoles rotates I don't think it will stay afloat.
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This game has far more planning, building, and complexity. It will be super, super awesome for about 1/5 of the FPS players, the other 100,000 14-year olds screaming 'faggot' into the microphone and trying to teabag your corpse will go elsewhere.
Isn't that also the EVE model? Accessibility issues with the console aside, "DUST is HARD" would be a selling point for folks like us and we've kept EVE going now for almost 10 years.
I can see it doing great at launch for a while, but as the aging cycle of consoles rotates I don't think it will stay afloat.
It's at that point that I think we'd see it brought over to PC.
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Isn't that also the EVE model? Accessibility issues with the console aside, "DUST is HARD" would be a selling point for folks like us and we've kept EVE going now for almost 10 years.
Making another gross generalization - console games have been primarily geared toward 'fun' rather than 'challenging' in order to drive sales. This results in a user base that values 'fun' over 'challenging.' It's a bit circular.
Are there people our there that would love challenging console games? Sure. Will Dust514 be enough to get them to buy PS3s when previously they've just stuck with PCs? Only of CCP make one muthafukka of a game.
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This game has far more planning, building, and complexity. It will be super, super awesome for about 1/5 of the FPS players, the other 100,000 14-year olds screaming 'faggot' into the microphone and trying to teabag your corpse will go elsewhere.
Isn't that also the EVE model? Accessibility issues with the console aside, "DUST is HARD" would be a selling point for folks like us and we've kept EVE going now for almost 10 years.
The eve model just doesn't work on consoles. Consoles are like the film industry. You have to front load, roll the dice and spend x millions of dollars, pray for a fantastic opening weekend and push for a month or two to make your profit, and then that's all she wrote.
DLC has expanded this a bit but the fundamentals are much more cutthroat than slow-burn lower development cost pc games
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Ah, Innovation. Everyone says that they want it, but when it finally comes around it's greeted with the universal fail fanfare because it's not doing things like history has proven things should work.
If no one tries to sell something new on the console market we'll never know whether it'll work or not. Maybe there are indeed people out there who aren't 15 and insult people on CoD and still own multiple gaming systems.
If you think 'The PC Gamer' is different you should rethink any experiences you had with public CS servers and notice that some elementary facts (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19/) never change since people are apparently more or less the same.
Anyway, thread derail complete :cube:
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I have no opinion on the mechanics of the cyno issue because I don't fly capitals and very rarely have found myself on grid with them (and not once in FW). Having the jamming function resident in a defensible/destructible structure separate from the plexes and ihubs would be a neat addition though.
It has potential importance is to someone like me... once upon a time I had designs on Urpiken (http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Black_Rise/Urpiken). Level 5 systems are almost equal to null-sec sovereignty and four is not too shabby. The ability to protect fixed assets, like starbases from being hit with a capital fleet has potential.
It may be the difference between taking & holding R-16 moons and not.
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I've always failed to see how FW could be considered the, "Kiddie Pool". It has bred and attracted some of the very best small gang pvp'ers who have on a consistent basis pulled the pants down of supposed, "Elite" nullsec alliances who come into FW thinking they can just pop bubbles, anchor up and push F1 for killmails.
Yeah, the mechanics of FW have always been FUBAR and broken and it can lead to burnout with the whole plexing system but at the end of the day it's a way to get low-sec pvp without worrying about gate guns through a free wardec and frankly everything else is just a bonus.
Everytime I get out of FW I end up wanting to go back in again because the actual options for fun, high-contact pew pew outside of RvB really are limited at the moment. Yeah it might be protracted conflict with no real end in sight but aren't all wars involving equal opponents? War weariness, pacifism and decrying the pointless of the slaughter to think of all the children are all legitimate IC responses just as much as being mercenaries, privateers and patriotic freelancers are all legitimate RP careers in FW.
I think it's not the concept behind FW but rather some of the implementation and mechanics behind it that made it annoying at times for myself and others and the winter expansion seems to be addressing most of them, so it's all good to me. I don't think FW is the right place if you prefer RP with some measure of supposed impact and attendant ISD articles as you build sandcastles in your own corner of the sandbox.
People die and spaceships explode in FW - does it really have to be more than that?
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Ah, Innovation. Everyone says that they want it, but when it finally comes around it's greeted with the universal fail fanfare because it's not doing things like history has proven things should work.
Truth, right there.
Anyways, DUST can probably survive with a few THOUSAND active players, just as EVE has done. Who cares what they other millions are doing, that is not CCPs style.
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What I'd like to see is a bloody timer reset when the last button-pusher warps out. I suspect it'll curtail the hordes of no-risk LP farmers a fair bit more than most of the other changes.
Hell yes. The natural state for the button should be zero seconds on the timer.
That would be cool yes.
restrictions for complexes
capital blobs
I don't follow. Capitals can only deploy inside the minority of complexes that are unrestricted. Suppose banning them from the FW systems altogether would prevent the threat of capital blobbing, such as it is, but I think the plex restrictions already accomplish the goal of channelizing and restricting PVP along the desired lines.
And, for the record, playing in the kiddie pool is extremely fun--as much if not more fun than swimming in the nudist lagoon of nullsec.
I fielded caps several times in FW when it was really interesting to do so or necessary, most of the time to kill bunkers and once to kill 2 pirate carriers at a gate, and I had that time one my biggest, adrenaline filled experience of all Eve, especially since it was supposed to be a suicide mission and we actually won.
What I mean is that caps warfare can be interesting and full of fun, but unfortunately the current state of the game means that only big entities have control over such things because of :cynoblob: (how I hate how cynos work, it's kindof of the core of the problem with capital blobs aka hotdrops). I too would like to see capitals banned from FW systems since it brings 99% of the time nothing but supercaps blobs and the likes. It does not happen in plexes, mind you. It happens at gates, stations, belts, wherever there is a fleet battle big enough. Or not even, sometimes people hotdrop frigates... Just for the lol.
What I would really like is just to see the system hub/bunker be the ACTUAL cynojammer. Once vulnerable, you can bring your caps in, and you have a day after the system is taken to take them out of here. I don't like really much this measure because it is quite extreme and limits the sandbox itself. But while the serious issues are still not being adressed - meaning, how cynos and capitals work and how to reduce blobs - it is in my opinion one of the best solutions available atm.
Thread is for opinions on the FW iteration.
Yea, including the bitter opinions.
vOv I calls em like I sees em.
You can call it bitter if you want. I am probably. However I do think that most of my points are valid and I do not bitch for the sake of bitching because CCP nerfed my last favourite toy.
Oh, and the mentioned T1 cruisers and below only type of complex like they will do for frigates, to make T1 cruisers worth something in FW.
This was my first reaction, too, but I'm willing to wait on juicy new stats for the Winter cruiser rebalancing. Of course a 10 man T2 gang will outclass a 10 man T1 gang, but fights aren't going to happen based on equal numbers alone. Although it will mean a lot more Falcons - but let's see how ECM revamp is going to pan out.
As someone who's likely not to get involved in FW, take my opinion with as much salt/sugar as you'd like, but I think the "rookie plexes" idea should be expanded, and that plexes should be segregated into two groups for each 'size': restricted, and unrestricted (borrowing old plex terms just for simplicity, limited/unlimited would work well enough). Restricted plexes act like these "rookie" plexes: Basic T1 hulls of accepted sizes only. No faction, no T2. Just T1. Unrestricted would be, well, unrestricted in this sense: any hull of the appropriate size would be allowed inside.
The lack of a "T1-only" plex for cruiser-and-larger ships just seems like a Not Very Good Idea to me in general. If they're going to spend time rebalancing the things it seems even worse; rebalancing isn't always enough to get people to use something if the T2 or faction variations are still that much better.
That is what I think would be best too.
Ah, Innovation. Everyone says that they want it, but when it finally comes around it's greeted with the universal fail fanfare because it's not doing things like history has proven things should work.
Truth, right there.
Anyways, DUST can probably survive with a few THOUSAND active players, just as EVE has done. Who cares what they other millions are doing, that is not CCPs style.
While I wholeheartedly agree with the statement and the ideal behind it, I still think CCP are basically doing it wrong and will probably fail, to a certain degree, at least.
To use again the cinema parallel, artistic independant movies are not sold on the hollywood market, or they inevitably fail. They are brought to the public eye through festivals (like Venise or Cannes), which means, through the proper media.
It is the same for small independant games. You do not launch something like minecraft, machinarium, whatever of the same caliber, on consoles, period. That would be suicidal. And I don't think DUST is comparable to games like Ico, Journey, or exceptions like that.
Dust is not coming through the proper media to my opinion.
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I also think FW as a concept has ENORMOUS RP potential. Let the players fight it out 'win' or 'lose' for the factions, and move the story along accordingly. The PF always keeps it 'even' among the factions, and we could all do with a shake up and have a few of them getting their asses kicked to change the dynamic.
How much more exciting for all of us if the PF followed FW and there were consequences?
Giant goldmine of story lines relating to the Amarr losing the front, suppressing the knowledge among the populace perhaps... the Empress losing face and having to deal with uppity Heirs losing faith in her Military strategies, etc etc. It's Vak A'tioth all over again, what's a loyal Imperial to do?
The Matari ascendent, victories on the battlefield... do they translate to a better life on the homefront? Are the tribes uniting in victory? Or are these spoils being rolled into further military endeavors as the population continues to suffer?
Etc Etc
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RPers wouldn't be involved at that point.
Large nullsec Alliances would be trolling the storyline at whim. FW is already the plac where the losers of Nullsec wars go to regroup.
ofc, some folks believe that how it should be (I sort of do). Just pointing out what would happen...
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RPers wouldn't be involved at that point.
Large nullsec Alliances would be trolling the storyline at whim. FW is already the plac where the losers of Nullsec wars go to regroup.
ofc, some folks believe that how it should be (I sort of do). Just pointing out what would happen...
CCP should troll back with epic NPC fleets :) Show them the wrath of the Empress and all :P
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Bait out a PL titan drop.
Responde with 300 Avatars.
Alpha kill titans.
Collect tears.
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The issue with doing that is that there would be an almighty whinefest on the forums in response. People regard FW as a place to go farm ISK, get easy ganks, and reform after defeat in nullsec. They do not regard it as a place to engage in an actual war - and God forbid the environment - or CCP - should actually fight back! The accusations of dev bias would be deafening.
/bitter
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CCP should troll back with epic NPC fleets :) Show them the wrath of the Empress and all :P
Unless the thin-client idea I've been ranting about for a year comes to fruition (it won't), then the EVE architecture literally can't do that.
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CCP should troll back with epic NPC fleets :) Show them the wrath of the Empress and all :P
Unless the thin-client idea I've been ranting about for a year comes to fruition (it won't), then the EVE architecture literally can't do that.
I'm pretty sure it has - they use what they call "thin clients" for local testing requiring large numbers of ships, iirc.
Probably could be adapted for such use with some work.
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What I would really like is just to see the system hub/bunker be the ACTUAL cynojammer. Once vulnerable, you can bring your caps in, and you have a day after the system is taken to take them out of here. I don't like really much this measure because it is quite extreme and limits the sandbox itself. But while the serious issues are still not being adressed - meaning, how cynos and capitals work and how to reduce blobs - it is in my opinion one of the best solutions available atm.
I support this. If you said there was a distributed control system, it might actually make the whole plexing thing make some sense (if you squinted your eyes to make them go slightly out of focus).