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[Jev North]

Kite -- easy, because dual MASB leaves you with fuck-all options for range control, and most boats you can fit them on beg for a blaster fit -- then fire into the massive, massive EM/Thermal hole. Even in the worst case, they'll run out of cap boosters eventually..

[Desiderya]

Just a note, Merlins usually don't have a noteworthy resist holes when fitted for active tanking. Dual MASB is fun, but it's no I-WIN fit and I consider it more a bait fit for a group than a solo fit.
Personally I've met a blaster-Incursus that I wasn't able to kill with a blaster dual-MASB merlin. Wasn't able to break his tank, he wasn't able to break mine, with the difference that I had to disengage (he had no point fitted) as I ran out of charges whereas I assume that he could've gone on for quite some time as he was running some 'hold your ground forever'-plex fit.
I derped a bit in the fight, messed up my speed/range and killed my damage application from time to time, so I'm not sure it'd have worked a second time.

Regarding ASBs I think dual X-L are the problem, because they are inherently better than their other counterparts on their own. An X-L on its own is much better than two large, whereas two medium are the same as one large. Fitting an X-L over two large costs the same CPU and 200 more powergrid - 200 powergrid on cruisers upwards for one med slot and an increase in performance is an okay deal, even when it leads to the need of fitting rigs and smaller main guns.
Raw 'defence' EFT numbers on standard shield profile (Caracal):
[spoiler]

• 1 XL         : 345
• 2 Large    : 276
• 1 Large    : 142
• 2 Medium : 141
• 1 Medium : 74
• 2 Small     : 79

[/spoiler]

[Lyn Farel]

Interesting.

However how can an incursus tank forever with a dual rep setup ? Sounds to me that a lot of things have changed if you can run 2 reps, or even only one, for more than 10 secs without killing your cap... Cap boosters maybe ?

[ArtOfLight]

Interesting.

However how can an incursus tank forever with a dual rep setup ? Sounds to me that a lot of things have changed if you can run 2 reps, or even only one, for more than 10 secs without killing your cap... Cap boosters maybe ?

Yes, a dual-rep Incursus with a cap booster can be cap stable for well over three minutes if they're not being neuted. They are quite literally the most difficult t1 frigate to kill, way above and beyond any Dual MASB fit frigate.

[kalaratiri]

2012.09.05 13:35:00

Victim: Sleepless Town
Corp: The Time Lord Empire
Alliance: Unknown
Faction: Caldari State
Destroyed: Incursus
System: Lasleinur
Security: 0,2
Damage Taken: 35833

[Silas Vitalia]

"Temporary" cyno jamming is fail, and this will be worked-around with ease.

If you want to give the defenders an edge leave the damn thing on permanently, and then make the fun gameplay changes around the method it is to be destroyed or disabled.


This of course all goes back to the tired old mantra of capitals being broken, and capitals in FW being double-broken.

[Esna Pitoojee]

I can't see them putting in perma-jammers, as this would only encourage further bloc-forming among a single side of a given warzone - not, I am sure, what they want to encourage. Then again, given CCP's record of forseeng the obviously predictable results of the past rounds of FW changes...

[Lyn Farel]

Interesting.

However how can an incursus tank forever with a dual rep setup ? Sounds to me that a lot of things have changed if you can run 2 reps, or even only one, for more than 10 secs without killing your cap... Cap boosters maybe ?

Yes, a dual-rep Incursus with a cap booster can be cap stable for well over three minutes if they're not being neuted. They are quite literally the most difficult t1 frigate to kill, way above and beyond any Dual MASB fit frigate.

I see. Things that disgust me even more of what pvp has become, all about always more excesses and escalations, but thats mostly personnal.

That's why I loved the nano-nerf, it was about nerfing all the speed and nano excesses. That's what I loved with the stacking penalties as well. No they seem to have the opposite mindset.

[BloodBird]

It's not really CCP's fault.

The game itself keeps getting better and better and players richer and richer. And with that, more and more risk-averse, forcing the rest to compensate by... well, we know where this goes.

"Everything was better in the old days" is highly inaccurate and cliché, but I *STILL* recall fondly the times people were more eager to risk their T1 junk they could hardly afford to lose, than today when people are terrified of losing their Faction-pimped T3 that they can in fact replace several times over.

The ultimate issue lies with player mentality and gaming mores. I curse the spineless risk-aversion tendencies with all my heart, but there is little to be done with it. We will simply have to adapt and cope.

Or quit, alternatively.

[Silas Vitalia]

I can't see them putting in perma-jammers, as this would only encourage further bloc-forming among a single side of a given warzone - not, I am sure, what they want to encourage. Then again, given CCP's record of forseeng the obviously predictable results of the past rounds of FW changes...

CCP has stated multiple times that FW is supposed to be a sort of 'pvp light' on the capsuleer road of moving to low sec and eventually null-sec.

This is why they have restrictions for complexes.

I think its ridiculous for capital blobs to have any part of playing in the shallow end of the kiddie-pool, a kiddie-pool set up by CCP.

They should follow-through with their gameplay design logic to its natural extents here, or remove 'all' restrictions from FW in general.

Either it's PVP light or its regular PVP and the gloves should come off. 

Half-assed is no way to go about it.

[Lyn Farel]

Being constantly half ass is CCP new game design policies. Either with unfinished/unpolished add-ons, or either with new measures that do not try to actually fix the issues at hand and be innovative, but that rather seem to be here only to make lobbies players happy.

It's not really CCP's fault.

The game itself keeps getting better and better and players richer and richer. And with that, more and more risk-averse, forcing the rest to compensate by... well, we know where this goes.

"Everything was better in the old days" is highly inaccurate and cliché, but I *STILL* recall fondly the times people were more eager to risk their T1 junk they could hardly afford to lose, than today when people are terrified of losing their Faction-pimped T3 that they can in fact replace several times over.

The ultimate issue lies with player mentality and gaming mores. I curse the spineless risk-aversion tendencies with all my heart, but there is little to be done with it. We will simply have to adapt and cope.

It is cliché. The best times where just after the nano nerf imho. Before it was all about exploits and still regulating excesses that came from the early game and needed iteration after iteration to polish the system.

However I still think the tech and pimp escalation is utterly stupid. We can say what we want but it is basically the same thing than in MMOs like WoW with their T1, T2,..., Tn+1.

Or quit, alternatively.

Yeah, I did that eventually.

[DeadRow]

It is cliché. The best times where just after the nano nerf imho. Before it was all about exploits and still regulating excesses that came from the early game and needed iteration after iteration to polish the system.

However I still think the tech and pimp escalation is utterly stupid. We can say what we want but it is basically the same thing than in MMOs like WoW with their T1, T2,..., Tn+1.

The best time to be in the game is now, imo. With the Frigate rebalances and eventually all ship types being rebalanced means that we don't see the same five ships over and over. Getting in a frigate to pvp has never been easier and a wide variety to choose from, this'll only become better once the Logi and EW frigates rebalance come Winter.

I'd say the tech escalation between WoW(/SWTOR) and Eve are nothing alike. I've played all three and while I've never gotten 'epic' stuff in WoW, the stats stacking in SWTOR meant even at Level50 if you didn't have the highest tier pvp gear you barely scratched your opponent. Where as you can, and people do, take tech 1 frigs out and murder t2/faction ships.

Back on Topic:
Looking forward to these changes to FW. Not having to worry about NPCs in defensive plexs (and people actively defensive plexing!) means things just got a little easier for me. The NPC change also helps with the people who have high standings to the opposing team and don't get shot by NPCs when plexing.

[Lyn Farel]

The best time to be in the game is now, imo. With the Frigate rebalances and eventually all ship types being rebalanced means that we don't see the same five ships over and over. Getting in a frigate to pvp has never been easier and a wide variety to choose from, this'll only become better once the Logi and EW frigates rebalance come Winter.

Yeah, that's probably the good side of it.

I'd say the tech escalation between WoW(/SWTOR) and Eve are nothing alike. I've played all three and while I've never gotten 'epic' stuff in WoW, the stats stacking in SWTOR meant even at Level50 if you didn't have the highest tier pvp gear you barely scratched your opponent.

Funny, I have had a series of fights with pvp stuffed friends in SWTOR when I only had my pve lvl 50 set and won 2 out of 3 fights with them. It was, of course, partly due to the fact that I had a good class, but still.

Eventually though, I agree that there is a clear difference of level between epic stuff and the basic stuff. And I bet it is even higher in WoW (which I havent played, have only heard a lot about). My point is that I find eve quite similar in that fashion, so I disagree, but I know we are not a lot to think that way, especially since it is more subtle and less "obvious in your face" with Eve.

Where as you can, and people do, take tech 1 frigs out and murder t2/faction ships.

I am not speaking about possibilities and exceptions. As I said above, I was able to overcome epic stuffed people with basic stuff in other MMOs as well. It doesn't mean it is the standard.

Back on Topic:
Looking forward to these changes to FW. Not having to worry about NPCs in defensive plexs (and people actively defensive plexing!) means things just got a little easier for me.

That's what I don't understand in their logic. They say at the same time that people will have to pay attention and be active to run plexes, and yet they say that NPCs are irrelevant or negligible. Where is the logic in that ?

It feels like they are walking a thin line of a fragile balance between NPCs able to prevent people from afk running plexes and NPCs not powerful enough to threaten pvp in said plexes. 

[Jev North]

What I'd like to see is a bloody timer reset when the last button-pusher warps out. I suspect it'll curtail the hordes of no-risk LP farmers a fair bit more than most of the other changes.

[Desiderya]

Sheesh, guys, fetch a towel, you're bittervetting all over the place. 

@Jev: Either that or automatic decontesting to zero over time if no one's present.

@NPCs: Their mere presence is enough to prevent afk farming as they contest the plex. If you don't kill them you can't get your LP. This means that medium and major complexes can't be run by farming frigs anymore. Speed tanking is supposed to cease working, too.